Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping horse steps?

[Warin]

On 27/08/18 23:28, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 27/08/18 13:32, Edward Catmur wrote:
amenity=horse_dismount_block has 4 occurrences, all in the north of 
England.


I think I'm responsible for half of those - happy to pick a different 
tag if someone's got a better idea!


There are actually a selection of tags used for this sort of thing:

--

-- Horse mounting blocks
--

   if (( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["bridleway"] == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["historic"]  == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["horse"] == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["horse"] == "mounting block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_step"    ) or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_steps"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "horse_dismount_block" )) then
  keyvalues["man_made"] = "mounting_block"
   end

https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L2211 



all very low usage.


horse=* is used as an access thing .. so I'd not encourage its use for 
other things.
e.g. there exists horse=dismount .. I think that means the rider must 
get off the horse to proceed .. an access condition, not a facility to 
assist dismounting.


I'll raise it on the tagging list and see what they come up with.
My personal preference at the moment is for man_made=mounting_steps. But 
that is just me.




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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Warin]

On 28/08/18 04:00, Chris Hill wrote:



On 27/08/2018 18:09, Martin Wynne wrote:



Landuse=highway does have some usage, and certainly the term forbidden
does not exist in OSM.

There is no such thing as available, if you think a new tag is needed
then you can use it.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dhighway


Hi Phil,

I'm confused. If anyone can use anything, what is the meaning of 
having a vote about it?


That page says voting on landuse=highway was suspended 5 years ago, 
and there are more opposed to it than in favour.


There must be some distinction between "official" tags and home-made 
ones, otherwise how is the renderer to know what to do with them? If 
it is not rendered, and no-one knows it exists to be searched for, 
what is the point of adding it to the database? If I put 
landuse=ufo_landing_pad who would ever know that it is in there?


There are no official or approved tags. 


There are 'approved' tags. These are ones voted on and reach the 
required number of votes, proportion of yes votes and the required 
minimum times for comments on the tagging list and time for voting.
Tags existed before that system .. these normally have the status 
defacto. Tags that have not been 'approved' but have large use might 
have the status 'inuse'.


There are thousands of renders, each one is free to use the tags they 
want. If you want a specialist cycle map or specialist sports map you 
can create it, focussing on the items you want to show. The problem 
with having a few maps on the landing page of OSM is that newcomers 
assume they are the way things are rendered, when anything is possible.


Voting is, IMHO, largely pointless and possibly a bad thing as it 
lends an air of importance to a tag when in reality a couple of dozen 
people said Yes to an idea they may know nothing about nor even ever use.


By seeking the tagging groups discussion a wider world view can be 
obtained rather than a local view possibly of one person.

The voting can be destructive. But the discussions can be helpful.


The only metric that matters is whether a tag is used, and yes landuse 
= highway is used and makes a lot of sense to me.




Agree that landuse=highway makes sense.

I disagree that landuse=highway would confuse a router.. routers look 
for the key highway=* ... not the value *=highway.
So I think the comment that landuse=hightway cannot be used is totally 
wrong.


The acceptance of a tag by renders goes a long way to getting people to 
use it.
Catch 22 is that the renders don't like to use a tag unless it has 
significant use.

One way of encouraging use is to document it well on the OSM wiki.


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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Mike Evans]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 18:09:53 +0100
Martin Wynne  wrote:

> the point of adding it to the database? If I put landuse=ufo_landing_pad 
> who would ever know that it is in there?

I'm sure that an actual on-the-ground verified UFO landing pad really would be 
a valuable addition.  

Mike E

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Re: [Talk-GB] Road refs

[Andrew Hain]

Toby, I really think you need to read through the conversation archived at 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2018-August/thread.html and 
answer the points discussed there.

--
Andrew

From: Toby Speight 
Sent: 27 August 2018 19:15
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [Talk-GB] Road refs

Recently, all the tertiary roads in my region had their ref tags
removed, and replaced with "highways_authority_ref".  A week later the
unclassified and residential roads suffered similar attack.

* Who is supposed to benefit from hiding these data?
* Who is responsible for documenting what this tag means, and when it
  should be used in place of the standard tagging?  So far, there's no
  mention of it on its own tag wiki, nor on key:ref
* Who is responsible for coordinating the related changes to software -
  editors, renderers, converters and QA tools - that are required?  I
  see no sign of any of this having started.

In short, what's going on, what's wrong with the standard tagging, and
how can we get the data back where they belong?

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[Talk-GB] Road refs

[Toby Speight]

Recently, all the tertiary roads in my region had their ref tags
removed, and replaced with "highways_authority_ref".  A week later the
unclassified and residential roads suffered similar attack.

* Who is supposed to benefit from hiding these data?
* Who is responsible for documenting what this tag means, and when it
  should be used in place of the standard tagging?  So far, there's no
  mention of it on its own tag wiki, nor on key:ref
* Who is responsible for coordinating the related changes to software -
  editors, renderers, converters and QA tools - that are required?  I
  see no sign of any of this having started.

In short, what's going on, what's wrong with the standard tagging, and
how can we get the data back where they belong?

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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Chris Hill]

On 27/08/2018 18:09, Martin Wynne wrote:



Landuse=highway does have some usage, and certainly the term forbidden
does not exist in OSM.

There is no such thing as available, if you think a new tag is needed
then you can use it.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dhighway


Hi Phil,

I'm confused. If anyone can use anything, what is the meaning of 
having a vote about it?


That page says voting on landuse=highway was suspended 5 years ago, 
and there are more opposed to it than in favour.


There must be some distinction between "official" tags and home-made 
ones, otherwise how is the renderer to know what to do with them? If 
it is not rendered, and no-one knows it exists to be searched for, 
what is the point of adding it to the database? If I put 
landuse=ufo_landing_pad who would ever know that it is in there?


There are no official or approved tags. There are thousands of renders, 
each one is free to use the tags they want. If you want a specialist 
cycle map or specialist sports map you can create it, focussing on the 
items you want to show. The problem with having a few maps on the 
landing page of OSM is that newcomers assume they are the way things are 
rendered, when anything is possible.


Voting is, IMHO, largely pointless and possibly a bad thing as it lends 
an air of importance to a tag when in reality a couple of dozen people 
said Yes to an idea they may know nothing about nor even ever use.


The only metric that matters is whether a tag is used, and yes landuse = 
highway is used and makes a lot of sense to me.


If you want to add UFO landing pads that you can *verify* on the ground 
then use the tag. If it is popular then the guys who maintain the OSM 
website map schemas may even include them there. You would be free to 
create your own map render that shows the sites for the hoards of UFO 
spotters to navigate there.


--

cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)


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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Martin Wynne]

Landuse=highway does have some usage, and certainly the term forbidden
does not exist in OSM.

There is no such thing as available, if you think a new tag is needed
then you can use it.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dhighway


Hi Phil,

I'm confused. If anyone can use anything, what is the meaning of having 
a vote about it?


That page says voting on landuse=highway was suspended 5 years ago, and 
there are more opposed to it than in favour.


There must be some distinction between "official" tags and home-made 
ones, otherwise how is the renderer to know what to do with them? If it 
is not rendered, and no-one knows it exists to be searched for, what is 
the point of adding it to the database? If I put landuse=ufo_landing_pad 
who would ever know that it is in there?


regards,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2018-08-27 at 15:52 +0100, Martin Wynne wrote:
> > Certainly as clear as mud, a router will should only look on the
> > left
> > side. How is that any different to landuse=railway?
> > 
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> Hi Phil,
> 
> For railways you can have landuse=railway_corridor for sidings and
> other 
> wide areas inside the railway's boundary fence. But there doesn't
> seem 
> to be a corresponding highway_corridor available.
> 
Landuse=highway does have some usage, and certainly the term forbidden
does not exist in OSM.

There is no such thing as available, if you think a new tag is needed
then you can use it.

The tag has existed on the A55 for some years, so I think if was
causing problems for routers we would have noticed by now.

There is certainly an ongoing proposal 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dhighway

There seems to be some confusion, no doubt due to American usage, but
the concept does make perfect sense to me. It certainly does not say
forbidden.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Martin Wynne]

Certainly as clear as mud, a router will should only look on the left
side. How is that any different to landuse=railway?

Phil (trigpoint)


Hi Phil,

For railways you can have landuse=railway_corridor for sidings and other 
wide areas inside the railway's boundary fence. But there doesn't seem 
to be a corresponding highway_corridor available.


regards,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2018-08-27 at 15:29 +0100, Martin Wynne wrote:
> > > What you can't do is have landuse=highway, which would otherwise
> > > be
> > > the most logical way to deal with such areas.
> > > 
> > 
> > Why not? I agree it is the most logical way of treating these
> > areas.
> > 
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> Hi Phil,
> 
> I was told on one of the forums that it was forbidden, because it 
> affects routing apps, satnavs, etc.
> 
> You can have "highway" on the left of an = sign, but not on the
> right.
> 
> i.e. it can be a keyword but not a value.
> 
> The logic of that is as clear as mud to me.
> 
Certainly as clear as mud, a router will should only look on the left
side. How is that any different to landuse=railway?

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Martin Wynne]

What you can't do is have landuse=highway, which would otherwise be
the most logical way to deal with such areas.


Why not? I agree it is the most logical way of treating these areas.

Phil (trigpoint)


Hi Phil,

I was told on one of the forums that it was forbidden, because it 
affects routing apps, satnavs, etc.


You can have "highway" on the left of an = sign, but not on the right.

i.e. it can be a keyword but not a value.

The logic of that is as clear as mud to me.

Martin.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping horse steps?

[Andy Townsend]

On 27/08/18 13:32, Edward Catmur wrote:
amenity=horse_dismount_block has 4 occurrences, all in the north of 
England.


I think I'm responsible for half of those - happy to pick a different 
tag if someone's got a better idea!


There are actually a selection of tags used for this sort of thing:

-- 
-- Horse mounting blocks
-- 
   if (( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["bridleway"] == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["historic"]  == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["horse"] == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["horse"] == "mounting block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_step") or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_steps"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "horse_dismount_block" )) then
  keyvalues["man_made"] = "mounting_block"
   end

https://github.com/SomeoneElseOSM/SomeoneElse-style/blob/master/style.lua#L2211

all very low usage.

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2018-08-27 at 13:48 +0100, Martin Wynne wrote:

> What you can't do is have landuse=highway, which would otherwise be
> the 
> most logical way to deal with such areas.
> 
Why not? I agree it is the most logical way of treating these areas.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Martin Wynne]

Another instance where this can cause problems is 
something like a public square, in many cases these are legally highways 
even if they are, at least most of the time, pedestrianised. But you 
can't tag an area as a highway, only a way. So you can't tag a public 
open space as a highway even if, legally, it is.


Hi Mark,

A highway doesn't have to be a way. For public squares and similar you 
can have area=yes and highway=pedestrian, extending beyond the actual 
road ways (which retain their colour but lose their border lines on the 
render).


In theory you could use that for the area between the hedgerows along 
all public roads, to avoid the ugly "no man's land" which becomes 
visible when zoomed in on the render.


What you can't do is have landuse=highway, which would otherwise be the 
most logical way to deal with such areas.


regards,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping horse steps?

[Edward Catmur]

amenity=horse_dismount_block has 4 occurrences, all in the north of
England.

I might add some more that I know of.

On Mon, 27 Aug 2018, 00:11 Martin Wynne,  wrote:

> I'm tempted to map these horse-mounting steps as
>
>   stairway=to_heaven
>
>   http://85a.co.uk/images/little_hereford7_960x800.jpg
>
>   http://85a.co.uk/images/little_hereford8_960x500.jpg
>
> Other suggestions welcome. Clearly horse riders need to know where these
> useful installations are located.
>
> Martin.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[David Woolley]

On 27/08/18 04:20, Chris Jones wrote:

1) The boundary is is clearly a fence. Thats what stops you just walking across.


Also OSM should not pretend to indicate legal boundaries.  In fact, in 
the real world, these can be quite fuzzy, as they depend on verbal 
descriptions, or rough maps from long before DGPS.


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Re: [Talk-GB] When is a hedge a wood?

[Philip Withnall]

On Sun, 2018-08-26 at 20:35 +0100, Martin Wynne wrote:
> Rural boundaries can be extraordinarily difficult to map. For
> example, 
> is this:
> 
>   https://goo.gl/maps/FtjMZiwNj542
> 
> a) a fence,
> 
> b) a hedge,
> 
> c) a very narrow wood,
> 
> d) all three at the same time?
> 
> Is the area in front of it
> 
> a) grass,
> 
> b) highway,
> 
> c) both?
> 
> (Not mapping from Google, I walked along there recently.)

I’d map it as a fence, with some tree nodes for each tree (since there
aren’t many of them and they’re fairly distinct).

I wouldn’t bother mapping the grass verge, since that’s not really
useful for navigation or any other use of OSM data that I can think of;
and life is too short.

I would make sure to set sidewalk=left or sidewalk=right (depending on
which way you’ve mapped the road) on the road line, since that’s useful
for pedestrian navigation. It could be used to predict that there’s a
verge on the other side too.

I’d also say lit=yes on the road, for completeness.

Philip

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