Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[David Woolley]

On 20/12/2020 23:21, SK53 wrote:
I'm aware of a number of terraces which are discontinuous, demonstrating 
that individual houses in a terrace are not building:part.


There is a set of maisonettes, which are both semi-detached 
horizontally, and split into four groups, with roads between them, 
around a roundabout, near me.  The individual maisonettes are numbered 
separately from the main street numbers, the development as a whole has 
no street number of its own, and actually has presences on roads with 
three different names!


It actually confuses the council's fly tip and street defect reporting 
app, which tends to reverse geocode it as though the maisonette's were 
directly numbered on the relevant road.  They failed to find one broken 
sign because of that.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Colin Smale]

I don't think you can *deduce* the post town from the postcode, but you
can look it up, using the (non-open) PAF. You will need to use the full
postcode though, as sectors can be split amongst multiple post towns. 

Let's not drift too far from the original topic of how to represent
addresses. How to tag terraces and parts thereof is a different (though
related) subject. 

On 2020-12-21 00:21, SK53 wrote:

> Personally, I think this is still a sort of kludge, although no worse than 
> the ones I discussed in my blog pos [1]t. 
> 
> I'm aware of a number of terraces which are discontinuous, demonstrating that 
> individual houses in a terrace are not building:part. A typical example would 
> be a terrace bombed in the war where the bombed out houses were not replaced. 
> There is a "terrace" in Richings Park, Iver which looks just as if such a 
> scenario had occurred, however, the owner of the end house explained that the 
> developer ran out of money and never completed the terrace (the end houses 
> were planned to be fancier). 
> 
> At one stage I terraced buildings and left the outline of the terrace as well 
> as the individual houses which was a similar solution, but that will now lead 
> to lots of error messages. For S3DB (simple 3D buildings) describing the 
> entire terrace in terms of roof shape etc is often far easier than doing it 
> for individual houses, so there are other advantages. My main objection is 
> that it is not semantically accurate. 
> 
> The use of building=terrace both for entire terraces and individual houses in 
> the terrace also is something I would like to disambiguate. For instance use 
> building=terrace for the entire terrace & building=terraced_house for 
> individual houses in a terrace (this latter value may also work with 
> building:part in ways that give data consumers flexibility with the data). 
> Generic building=house is preferably avoided for something more precise 
> (detached, semidetached_house etc). I'd like to mark bungalows separately as, 
> at least in Britain, they tend to be a very distinct housing type which 
> building:levels=1 does not guarantee, but in various places, notably 
> Southend, there are masses of semidetached bungalows. 
> 
> On the topic of the OP, I'm broadly with Chris on this, pretty much as I set 
> out [2]7 years ago! I also think it's important that, for me at least, we're 
> not adding addresses in OSM just to create an open replica of PAF. There are 
> numerous other important uses of addresses over and above this and routing. 
> At the Open Addresses meeting [3] back in 2014 I participated in a discussion 
> on this very point, and a number of people from large well-known 
> organisations provided a good number of significant examples. I can't be more 
> explicit because the meeting was held under Chatham House rules. If we do 
> need to add postal towns, which I suspect we don't, then I would advocate for 
> a specific tag addr:postal_town or even addr:rm_postal_town. In practice I 
> would think postal towns can be deduced from post codes (i.e. externally to 
> OSM): wikipedia certainly have lists for many postcode areas. 
> 
> Jerry 
> 
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 19:23, ndrw  wrote: 
> 
>> On 20/12/2020 18:44, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
>>> What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and 
>>> "name=" and all the houses with 
>>> "building:part=house". The software can then tell that all those 
>>> houses are part of the terrace called 
>> 
>> This is a good solution. I usually resort to simply not terracing the 
>> building and adding addresses as points and/or an addr:interpolation line.
>> 
>> In either case, if the name of the building is a part of the address 
>> ("dependent thoroughfare") there is currently no suitable OSM tag for 
>> it. I've seen cases of addr:place, addr:substreet or addr:parentstreet 
>> but there is no established consensus yet.
>> 
>> ndrw6
>> 
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Links:
--
[1]
http://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2020/06/housing-terraces-in-wales-minor.html
[2]
http://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2013/08/pfafing-about-opening-uk-address-data.html
[3]
http://sk53-osm.blogspot.com/2014/09/openstreetmap-at-uk-open-addresses.html___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[SK53]

Personally, I think this is still a sort of kludge, although no worse than
the ones I discussed in my blog pos

t.

I'm aware of a number of terraces which are discontinuous, demonstrating
that individual houses in a terrace are not building:part. A typical
example would be a terrace bombed in the war where the bombed out houses
were not replaced. There is a "terrace" in Richings Park, Iver which looks
just as if such a scenario had occurred, however, the owner of the end
house explained that the developer ran out of money and never completed the
terrace (the end houses were planned to be fancier).

At one stage I terraced buildings and left the outline of the terrace as
well as the individual houses which was a similar solution, but that will
now lead to lots of error messages. For S3DB (simple 3D buildings)
describing the entire terrace in terms of roof shape etc is often far
easier than doing it for individual houses, so there are other advantages.
My main objection is that it is not semantically accurate.

The use of building=terrace both for entire terraces and individual houses
in the terrace also is something I would like to disambiguate. For instance
use building=terrace for the entire terrace & building=terraced_house for
individual houses in a terrace (this latter value may also work with
building:part in ways that give data consumers flexibility with the data).
Generic building=house is preferably avoided for something more precise
(detached, semidetached_house etc). I'd like to mark bungalows separately
as, at least in Britain, they tend to be a very distinct housing type which
building:levels=1 does not guarantee, but in various places, notably
Southend, there are masses of semidetached bungalows.

On the topic of the OP, I'm broadly with Chris on this, pretty much as I
set out
7
years ago! I also think it's important that, for me at least, we're not
adding addresses in OSM just to create an open replica of PAF. There are
numerous other important uses of addresses over and above this and routing.
At the Open Addresses meeting

back in 2014 I participated in a discussion on this very point, and a
number of people from large well-known organisations provided a good number
of significant examples. I can't be more explicit because the meeting was
held under Chatham House rules. If we do need to add postal towns, which I
suspect we don't, then I would advocate for a specific tag addr:postal_town
or even addr:rm_postal_town. In practice I would think postal towns can be
deduced from post codes (i.e. externally to OSM): wikipedia certainly have
lists for many postcode areas.

Jerry

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 19:23, ndrw  wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 18:44, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
> > What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and
> > "name=" and all the houses with
> > "building:part=house". The software can then tell that all those
> > houses are part of the terrace called 
>
> This is a good solution. I usually resort to simply not terracing the
> building and adding addresses as points and/or an addr:interpolation line.
>
> In either case, if the name of the building is a part of the address
> ("dependent thoroughfare") there is currently no suitable OSM tag for
> it. I've seen cases of addr:place, addr:substreet or addr:parentstreet
> but there is no established consensus yet.
>
> ndrw6
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-12-20 20:24, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:

> The housenumber and street would be tagged on the "building:part=house" 
> 
> Is this housrnumber belonging to the terrace or is it belonging to the 
> street? If it belongs to the terrace, I think even with this tagging software 
> wouldnt recognise this. 
> 
> In that case, this is the tagging O use (its not that good however): 
> 
> addr:housenumber=2 
> addr:place=Orchard Gardens 
> addr2:street=Green Lane 
> 
> I use addr2:street (this is accepted tagging, by the way) to indicate that 
> the street is a seperate address. 
> 
> This isnt ideal, of course

Put yourself in the place of a bit of software looking at OSM data and
trying to answer the questions: 
1) What is the (postal) address of these premises (being 2 Orchard
Cottages) 
=> correct answer is "2, Orchard Cottages, Green Lane" 
2) Where can I find "2 Orchard Cottages, Green Lane"? 
=> correct answer is the premises we started with 

Instead of looking for the ideal system, let's find something that is
good enough. I doubt we will ever find an ideal system that will fit all
the addressing systems in the world, or even in the UK (bilingual
addresses are another can of worms). 

If, looking only at the OSM data, a (reasonable) algorithm can be found
that leads reliably to the correct answer, then it is "good enough" 
If such an algorithm cannot be found, then the OSM data is "not good
enough" 
By "algorithm" I mean here a deterministic interpretation of OSM
tagging, including (where really necessary) the geometry (within
particular types of polygon for example).___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

The housenumber and street would be tagged on the "building:part=house"

Is this housrnumber belonging to the terrace or is it belonging to the street? 
If it belongs to the terrace, I think even with this tagging software wouldnt 
recognise this.

In that case, this is the tagging O use (its not that good however):

addr:housenumber=2
addr:place=Orchard Gardens
addr2:street=Green Lane

I use addr2:street (this is accepted tagging, by the way) to indicate that the 
street is a seperate address.

This isnt ideal, of course
-- 
 


20 Dec 2020, 18:52 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

>
> On 2020-12-20 19:44, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:
>
>
>> What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and 
>> "name=" and all the houses with "building:part=house". The 
>> software can then tell that all those houses are part of the terrace called 
>> 
>>  
>>
>  
> So in the case like I referred to earlier, "2, Orchard Cottages, Green Lane" 
> would be tagged with addr:housenumber=2, and addr:street=Green Lane? And then 
> enclosed within "building=terrace, name=Orchard Cottages". Is the tag 
> building:part=house enough to indicate that the address is "2, Orchard 
> Cottages, Green Lane" and not "2, Green Lane"?
>  
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[ndrw]

On 20/12/2020 18:44, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and 
"name=" and all the houses with 
"building:part=house". The software can then tell that all those 
houses are part of the terrace called 


This is a good solution. I usually resort to simply not terracing the 
building and adding addresses as points and/or an addr:interpolation line.


In either case, if the name of the building is a part of the address 
("dependent thoroughfare") there is currently no suitable OSM tag for 
it. I've seen cases of addr:place, addr:substreet or addr:parentstreet 
but there is no established consensus yet.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[ndrw]

On 20/12/2020 16:09, Chris Hill wrote
Using the two separate towns is not correct. The house (or whatever) 
is not in Largertown,it is in Smalltown.


By convention addr:* tags are for addressing, not for mapping 
administrative boundaries. For the latter we can use is_in tags, 
although explicit admin boundaries are preferable.


Postal towns are in invention of Royal Mail. Correct addressing of any 
location are set by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. There are no 
postal towns in LA addresses.


It is unfortunate Royal Mail is setting address information in such an 
arbitrary manner and that the resulting database is largely proprietary. 
But this is still the only addressing system we can use.


In the original example the 'Smalltown' (or indeed village or even 
hamlet) translates into addr:city in OSM. I know this may look 
confusing as a small villiage is not a city, but that is, IMHO, the 
correct way tobuild an OSM UK address.


Adding postal towns is not only redundant, but is misleading. It looks 
as though the way to find Smalltown would be first to go to 
Largertown, when that is very rarely the case. OSM addresses are 
hierarchical, RM addressing is not as postal town is usually a 
separate place.


It is common to have country specific addr:* tags but where possible we 
should strive to follow OSM tagging conventions, and addr:city is 
defined a town/village associated with the postcode.


I should have added that postcodes are a useful addition and my 
postcode overlays can help to workout what the correct postcode is for 
a given building. You can see more at https://codepoint.raggedred.net/


Yes, I am well aware of your overlays and have used them extensively in 
the past to map postcodes in East Anglia and several other areas. Thank 
you for providing and maintaining them.


A couple of years ago I've proposed a semi-automatic way of importing 
Code-Point Open postcodes to buildings, where building outlines are 
already available. As it is an imperfect solution the proposal has 
turned out rather unpopular. I still think having postcodes in the 
database far outweighs any inaccuracies that could arise, which in 
almost all cases are caused by buildings with multiple postcodes.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Alan Mackie]

That still doesn't answer the addr: tag question.

I don't think we'd normally expect consumers to need to do such detailed
geometry parsing for address to interpretation.

I think we need a firmer scheme for divisions of privately managed stuff
e.g. business parks apartment 'complexes' and the like would be useful.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020, 13:45 ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB, <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and
> "name=" and all the houses with "building:part=house". The
> software can then tell that all those houses are part of the terrace called
> 
>
> --
>
>
> 20 Dec 2020, 17:30 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:
>
> On 2020-12-20 18:21, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
>
> Tag the houses with addr:place maybe?
>
>
> IMHO a house is not a place
>
>
> Or, better method is to use the alternative terrace taggong scheme where
> each house is tagged as building:part=house within a larger
> building=terrace.  (Terracer plugin lets you do this if you check "keep
> outline way")
>
>
>
> That allows the building to be split into parts, but does it tell us how
> to put a distinct address on each part?
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-12-20 19:44, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:

> What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and 
> "name=" and all the houses with "building:part=house". The 
> software can then tell that all those houses are part of the terrace called 
> 

So in the case like I referred to earlier, "2, Orchard Cottages, Green
Lane" would be tagged with addr:housenumber=2, and addr:street=Green
Lane? And then enclosed within "building=terrace, name=Orchard
Cottages". Is the tag building:part=house enough to indicate that the
address is "2, Orchard Cottages, Green Lane" and not "2, Green Lane"?___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

What you do is give the outline way "buildong=terrace" and 
"name=" and all the houses with "building:part=house". The 
software can then tell that all those houses are part of the terrace called 

-- 
  

20 Dec 2020, 17:30 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

>
> On 2020-12-20 18:21, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
>
>
>> Tag the houses with addr:place maybe?
>>  
>>
> IMHO a house is not a place
>  
>
>> Or, better method is to use the alternative terrace taggong scheme where 
>> each house is tagged as building:part=house within a larger 
>> building=terrace.  (Terracer plugin lets you do this if you check "keep 
>> outline way")
>>  
>>
>  
> That allows the building to be split into parts, but does it tell us how to 
> put a distinct address on each part?
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-12-20 18:21, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:

> Tag the houses with addr:place maybe?

IMHO a house is not a place 

> Or, better method is to use the alternative terrace taggong scheme where each 
> house is tagged as building:part=house within a larger building=terrace.  
> (Terracer plugin lets you do this if you check "keep outline way")

That allows the building to be split into parts, but does it tell us how
to put a distinct address on each part?___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

Tag the houses with addr:place maybe?

Or, better method is to use the alternative terrace taggong scheme where each 
house is tagged as building:part=house within a larger building=terrace.  
(Terracer plugin lets you do this if you check "keep outline way")

IpswichMapper-- 
 


20 Dec 2020, 15:50 by aamac...@gmail.com:

> I'm also unclear how to tag numbered houses in named terraces. 
>
> addr:housename doesn't seem appropriate if they are shared along an entire 
> row and addr:street already has a value.
>
> I've also run into this for blocks of flats. "Block B" doesn't seem like a 
> housename either? The addr:block tags seems to be for named city blocks.
>
> Do we have some sort of local grouping tag?
>
> On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 10:32, ndrw <> nd...@redhazel.co.uk> > wrote:
>
>> On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote:
>>  > There is a page at 
>>  > >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping>>  
>>  > which mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is 
>>  > in use. If correct I would be tagging as -
>>  >
>>  > addr:housenumber=99
>>  > addr:street=Postal Street
>>  > addr:town=Smalltown
>>  > addr:city=Largertown
>>  >
>>  This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used for 
>>  Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. There was 
>>  a proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued against in 
>>  the past, but it would indeed match RM addressing better and often 
>>  classification of the locality is unclear.
>>  
>>  This is not the only problem with RM<->OSM address tagging. RM defines 
>>  following address structure:
>>  
>>  Dependent thoroughfare
>>          addr:place (?)
>>  Thoroughfare
>>          addr:street
>>  Double dependent locality
>>          addr:hamlet|district (?)
>>  Dependent locality
>>          addr:town|village|suburb|locality (?)
>>  Post Town
>>          addr:city
>>  Postcode
>>          addr:postcode
>>  
>>  
>>  This often becomes an issue when mapping business parks, 
>>  hospital/university campuses etc.
>>  
>>  ndrw6
>>  
>>  
>>  
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-12-20 17:16, Chris Hill wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 14:57, Colin Smale wrote: 
> 
> On 2020-12-20 15:41, Chris Hill wrote: 
> Addresses in OSM are not the same as Royal Mail's addresses. RM addresses are 
> all about their processes for delivering post to delivery points. The postal 
> town (Largertown in your example) is a convenience for RM that we have all 
> been persuaded is useful, but RM have ceased to use postal towns for many 
> years! 
> Are you not thinking of Postal Counties? They were indeed deprecated many 
> years ago (1996), but the Post Town is AFAIK a mandatory component of a 
> postal address, and Wikipedia agrees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_town

No, Counties are still useful. The only reason RM no longer uses
counties is that they depend on postcodes and street addresses to
deliver. We are not confined to delivering using RM's infrastructure.
Near to York there is a village called Dunnington, near to Hull there is
another small village called Dunnington. Without postcodes the county is
vital to reach the right place. 

What does Royal Mail say in their Postcode lookup tool? They use the
Post Town to distinguish the two (and no sign of the county in either
case):

Flat A 
Cherry Tree Court 
Dunnington 
YORK 
YO19 5QU 

Pear Tree Farm 
Dunnington 
DRIFFIELD 
YO25 8EG 

> Long after RM say they no longer used counties, their PAF list, used across 
> Britain to find addresses in the absence of a proper, Open address 
> database,still has counties in it. People still quote my address as being in 
> North Humberside. North Humberside never existed, Humberside was abolished in 
> 1996! SO it is with postal towns, RM no longer use them but they still appear 
> in their PAF and so get perpetuated in general use, even though they are 
> useless and misleading. 
> 
> Royal mail do not use postal towns and neither should OSM.___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-12-20 17:09, Chris Hill wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 15:30, ndrw wrote: On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote: 
> There is a page at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which 
> mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use. If 
> correct I would be tagging as -
> 
> addr:housenumber=99
> addr:street=Postal Street
> addr:town=Smalltown
> addr:city=Largertown
> 
> This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used for 
> Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. There was a 
> proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued against in the past, 
> but it would indeed match RM addressing better and often classification of 
> the locality is unclear.

Using the two separate towns is not correct. The house (or whatever) is
not in Largertown,it is in Smalltown.

Postal towns are in invention of Royal Mail. Correct addressing of any
location are set by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. There are no
postal towns in LA addresses.

In the original example the 'Smalltown' (or indeed village or even
hamlet) translates into addr:city in OSM. I know this may look confusing
as a small villiage is not a city, but that is, IMHO, the correct way
tobuild an OSM UK address.

Adding postal towns is not only redundant, but is misleading. It looks
as though the way to find Smalltown would be first to go to Largertown,
when that is very rarely the case. OSM addresses are hierarchical, RM
addressing is not as postal town is usually a separate place. 

That depends on your paradigm. If the address is the "postal address",
then we should follow (or map to) RM addressing. If the address is "for
navigation purposes" we would need a different model. Many countries
(not the UK) use addresses as (partial) identifiers, and that paradigm
has yet another set of requirements. 

Sometimes the Post Town is not even in the same country - addresses in
Tutshill, Gloucestershire have Chepstow as their Post Town. If that is
not tagged explicitly, what algorithm is going to infer that correctly? 

Are you advocating removing all address elements superior to street, and
forcing users to look up the other elements in PAF? What would otherwise
be the use case for having city/town etc in an address in OSM?___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Chris Hill]

On 20/12/2020 14:57, Colin Smale wrote:


On 2020-12-20 15:41, Chris Hill wrote:

Addresses in OSM are not the same as Royal Mail's addresses. RM 
addresses are all about their processes for delivering post to 
delivery points. The postal town (Largertown in your example) is a 
convenience for RM that we have all been persuaded is useful, but RM 
have ceased to use postal towns for many years!
Are you not thinking of Postal Counties? They were indeed deprecated 
many years ago (1996), but the Post Town is AFAIK a mandatory 
component of a postal address, and Wikipedia agrees: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_town 



No, Counties are still useful. The only reason RM no longer uses 
counties is that they depend on postcodes and street addresses to 
deliver. We are not confined to delivering using RM's infrastructure. 
Near to York there is a village called Dunnington, near to Hull there is 
another small village called Dunnington. Without postcodes the county is 
vital to reach the right place.


Long after RM say they no longer used counties, their PAF list, used 
across Britain to find addresses in the absence of a proper, Open 
address database,still has counties in it. People still quote my address 
as being in North Humberside. North Humberside never existed, Humberside 
was abolished in 1996! SO it is with postal towns, RM no longer use them 
but they still appear in their PAF and so get perpetuated in general 
use, even though they are useless and misleading.


Royal mail do not use postal towns and neither should OSM.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Chris Hill]

On 20/12/2020 15:30, ndrw wrote:

On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote:
There is a page at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping 
which mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is 
in use. If correct I would be tagging as -


addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:town=Smalltown
addr:city=Largertown

This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used 
for Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. 
There was a proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued 
against in the past, but it would indeed match RM addressing better 
and often classification of the locality is unclear.


Using the two separate towns is not correct. The house (or whatever) is 
not in Largertown,it is in Smalltown.


Postal towns are in invention of Royal Mail. Correct addressing of any 
location are set by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. There are no 
postal towns in LA addresses.


In the original example the 'Smalltown' (or indeed village or even 
hamlet) translates into addr:city in OSM. I know this may look confusing 
as a small villiage is not a city, but that is, IMHO, the correct way 
tobuild an OSM UK address.


Adding postal towns is not only redundant, but is misleading. It looks 
as though the way to find Smalltown would be first to go to Largertown, 
when that is very rarely the case. OSM addresses are hierarchical, RM 
addressing is not as postal town is usually a separate place.


I should have added that postcodes are a useful addition and my postcode 
overlays can help to workout what the correct postcode is for a given 
building. You can see more at https://codepoint.raggedred.net/





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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-12-20 16:30, ndrw wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote: 
> 
>> There is a page at 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which 
>> mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use. If 
>> correct I would be tagging as -
>> 
>> addr:housenumber=99
>> addr:street=Postal Street
>> addr:town=Smalltown
>> addr:city=Largertown
> This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used for 
> Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. There was a 
> proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued against in the past, 
> but it would indeed match RM addressing better and often classification of 
> the locality is unclear.
> 
> This is not the only problem with RM<->OSM address tagging. RM defines 
> following address structure:
> 
> Dependent thoroughfare
> addr:place (?)

This is unlikely to be a good match. An example of a Dependent
Thoroughfare would be "2, Orchard Cottages, Green Lane" where "Orchard
Cottages" is the Dependent Thoroughfare. 

> Thoroughfare
> addr:street
> Double dependent locality
> addr:hamlet|district (?)
> Dependent locality
> addr:town|village|suburb|locality (?)
> Post Town
> addr:city
> Postcode
> addr:postcode
> 
> This often becomes an issue when mapping business parks, hospital/university 
> campuses etc.
> 
> ndrw6
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Alan Mackie]

I'm also unclear how to tag numbered houses in named terraces.

addr:housename doesn't seem appropriate if they are shared along an entire
row and addr:street already has a value.

I've also run into this for blocks of flats. "Block B" doesn't seem like a
housename either? The addr:block tags seems to be for named city blocks.

Do we have some sort of local grouping tag?

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 10:32, ndrw  wrote:

> On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote:
> > There is a page at
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping
> > which mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is
> > in use. If correct I would be tagging as -
> >
> > addr:housenumber=99
> > addr:street=Postal Street
> > addr:town=Smalltown
> > addr:city=Largertown
> >
> This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used for
> Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. There was
> a proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued against in
> the past, but it would indeed match RM addressing better and often
> classification of the locality is unclear.
>
> This is not the only problem with RM<->OSM address tagging. RM defines
> following address structure:
>
> Dependent thoroughfare
> addr:place (?)
> Thoroughfare
> addr:street
> Double dependent locality
> addr:hamlet|district (?)
> Dependent locality
> addr:town|village|suburb|locality (?)
> Post Town
> addr:city
> Postcode
> addr:postcode
>
>
> This often becomes an issue when mapping business parks,
> hospital/university campuses etc.
>
> ndrw6
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[ndrw]

On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote:
There is a page at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping 
which mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is 
in use. If correct I would be tagging as -


addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:town=Smalltown
addr:city=Largertown

This is correct, although there is no consensus wrt to the tag used for 
Smalltown. I'm using one of addr:villlage|suburb|town myself. There was 
a proposal to switch to addr:locality only, which I argued against in 
the past, but it would indeed match RM addressing better and often 
classification of the locality is unclear.


This is not the only problem with RM<->OSM address tagging. RM defines 
following address structure:


Dependent thoroughfare
addr:place (?)
Thoroughfare
addr:street
Double dependent locality
addr:hamlet|district (?)
Dependent locality
addr:town|village|suburb|locality (?)
Post Town
addr:city
Postcode
addr:postcode


This often becomes an issue when mapping business parks, 
hospital/university campuses etc.


ndrw6



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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Peter Neale via Talk-GB]

Postal Town may be "mandatory", but it is not really needed.
When presenting a parcel at my local post office recently, to be sent by the 
"signed for" service, they wanted to have the senders address on the reverse, 
so that it could be used as a return address, in the event of non-delivery.
All I had to (hurriedly) write was the Housenumber and Postcode (no 
PostalStreet, no PostalDistrict, no PostalTown)
Regards,Peter


On Sunday, 20 December 2020, 15:00:31 GMT, Colin Smale 
 wrote:  
 
 
On 2020-12-20 15:41, Chris Hill wrote:

Addresses in OSM are not the same as Royal Mail's addresses. RM addresses are 
all about their processes for delivering post to delivery points. The postal 
town (Largertown in your example) is a convenience for RM that we have all been 
persuaded is useful, but RM have ceased to use postal towns for many years! 
Are you not thinking of Postal Counties? They were indeed deprecated many years 
ago (1996), but the Post Town is AFAIK a mandatory component of a postal 
address, and Wikipedia agrees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_town 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-12-20 15:41, Chris Hill wrote:

> Addresses in OSM are not the same as Royal Mail's addresses. RM addresses are 
> all about their processes for delivering post to delivery points. The postal 
> town (Largertown in your example) is a convenience for RM that we have all 
> been persuaded is useful, but RM have ceased to use postal towns for many 
> years!

Are you not thinking of Postal Counties? They were indeed deprecated
many years ago (1996), but the Post Town is AFAIK a mandatory component
of a postal address, and Wikipedia agrees:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_town___
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Chris Hill]

Addresses in OSM are not the same as Royal Mail's addresses. RM 
addresses are all about their processes for delivering post to delivery 
points. The postal town (Largertown in your example) is a convenience 
for RM that we have all been persuaded is useful, but RM have ceased to 
use postal towns for many years!


I live in a village called Swanland, nearby is a similarly sized village 
called North Ferriby. There RM owned a building big enough to use as a 
post office and have a small sorting office behind it, so it was adopted 
as the postal town for a few villages. The sorting office closed about 
twenty years ago and sorting was moved to the town of Hessle then, yet 
still the postal town for Swanland remains North Ferriby.


Royal Mail don't use postal towns at all now, they use street address 
and postcode.


We should not put postal town into OSM addresses at all. They are a 
fiction invented by RM for their processes which they no longer use and 
they offer no benefit to OSM, indeed they simply add confusion to anyone 
seeing a postal town in an address.


To use your example I would tag the address as:

addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:city=Smalltown

--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 20/12/2020 12:45, Dave Abbott wrote:

Hi,

I am trying to make sure I tag addresses correctly. I am currently 
trying to understand how to map in my area.


The postal addresses are like:

99 Postal Street
Smalltown
Largertown
West Yorks XY9 7GY

Smalltown is geographically separate to Largertown, which however is 
the Postal Town. Omitting Smalltown from the address is probably 
correct postally-speaking, but local residents would object as 
Smalltown is seen as completely separate to other places under the 
same Postal Town.


Currently tagging as -
addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:city=Smalltown, Largertown

But I am pretty sure this is wrong.

There is a page at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping 
which mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is 
in use. If correct I would be tagging as -


addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:town=Smalltown
addr:city=Largertown

Hoping someone can advise me as to the correct way to tag for the UK...




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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-12-20 14:39, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:

> It's not just administrative boundaries. If you mark points with 
> "place=suburb", "place=town" etc. that will also be used. 
> 
> In this case it is clearly difficult to tell which tags to use, so I would 
> just not use them and let nominatim figure out. Unless someone else a clearer 
> solution, that is.

First of all - are you sure that an address in OSM (addr:* tags) is
intended to represent a postal address, and not something else like a
location? 

If it IS supposed to be a postal address, then its data model needs to
be suitable, which in the UK means it can somehow accommodate all the
fields that can occur in a valid postal address. Fill your boots here:
https://ideal-postcodes.co.uk/documentation/paf-data 

Nominatim is known to produce bad output for UK addresses (at least, on
the OSM website), because it is based around compromises and assumptions
that fits some countries better than others. It ignores some useful
polygons, "invents" towns by proximity and gets the priority wrong
(place=village is higher than admin_level=10) It includes
districts/boroughs and administrative counties, none of which are
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

It's not just administrative boundaries. If you mark points with 
"place=suburb", "place=town" etc. that will also be used.

In this case it is clearly difficult to tell which tags to use, so I would just 
not use them and let nominatim figure out. Unless someone else a clearer 
solution, that is.

IpswichMapper

-- 
 

20 Dec 2020, 13:29 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

>
> On 2020-12-20 14:13, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
>
>
>> Marking city, town etc is not necessary in UK because Geocoders like 
>> nominatim can figure those out using afministrative boundaries.
>>  
>>
> Postal addresses have no relation to administrative boundaries. They are 
> simply "what you need to put on an envelope so Royal Mail can put it through 
> the right letter box".
>  
> Boundaries of "post town" areas are not in OSM, nor can they be considered 
> "administrative". Post Towns, Dependent Localities and Double-Dependent 
> Localities are not mapped (nor mappable) to Districts etc or Civil Parishes.
>  
>  
>
>>  
>> What is important is the housenumber and street:
>> "addr:housenumber=99
>> addr:street= Postal Street"
>>  
>> And postcode:
>> "addr:postcode=XY9 7GY"
>>  
>> Note, all postcodes are available freely:
>>  
>> https://raggedred.net/codepoint/
>>  
>> IpswichMapper
>> --
>>  
>>  
>> 20 Dec 2020, 12:45 by dave.abb...@pandaemonia.org:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>  
>>> I am trying to make sure I tag addresses correctly. I am currently trying 
>>> to understand how to map in my area.
>>>  
>>> The postal addresses are like:
>>>  
>>> 99 Postal Street
>>> Smalltown
>>> Largertown
>>> West Yorks XY9 7GY
>>>  
>>> Smalltown is geographically separate to Largertown, which however is the 
>>> Postal Town. Omitting Smalltown from the address is probably correct 
>>> postally-speaking, but local residents would object as Smalltown is seen as 
>>> completely separate to other places under the same Postal Town.
>>>  
>>> Currently tagging as -
>>> addr:housenumber=99
>>> addr:street=Postal Street
>>> addr:city=Smalltown, Largertown
>>>  
>>> But I am pretty sure this is wrong.
>>>  
>>> There is a page at 
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which 
>>> mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use. If 
>>> correct I would be tagging as -
>>>  
>>> addr:housenumber=99
>>> addr:street=Postal Street
>>> addr:town=Smalltown
>>> addr:city=Largertown
>>>  
>>> Hoping someone can advise me as to the correct way to tag for the UK...
>>>  
>>> Dave Abbott (OSM user DaveyPorcy)
>>>
>>  
>>
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>>

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-12-20 14:13, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:

> Marking city, town etc is not necessary in UK because Geocoders like 
> nominatim can figure those out using afministrative boundaries.

Postal addresses have no relation to administrative boundaries. They are
simply "what you need to put on an envelope so Royal Mail can put it
through the right letter box". 

Boundaries of "post town" areas are not in OSM, nor can they be
considered "administrative". Post Towns, Dependent Localities and
Double-Dependent Localities are not mapped (nor mappable) to Districts
etc or Civil Parishes. 

> What is important is the housenumber and street: 
> "addr:housenumber=99 
> addr:street= Postal Street" 
> 
> And postcode: 
> "addr:postcode=XY9 7GY" 
> 
> Note, all postcodes are available freely: 
> 
> https://raggedred.net/codepoint/ 
> 
> IpswichMapper 
> -- 
> 
> 20 Dec 2020, 12:45 by dave.abb...@pandaemonia.org: 
> 
>> Hi, 
>> 
>> I am trying to make sure I tag addresses correctly. I am currently trying to 
>> understand how to map in my area. 
>> 
>> The postal addresses are like: 
>> 
>> 99 Postal Street 
>> Smalltown 
>> Largertown 
>> West Yorks XY9 7GY 
>> 
>> Smalltown is geographically separate to Largertown, which however is the 
>> Postal Town. Omitting Smalltown from the address is probably correct 
>> postally-speaking, but local residents would object as Smalltown is seen as 
>> completely separate to other places under the same Postal Town. 
>> 
>> Currently tagging as - 
>> addr:housenumber=99 
>> addr:street=Postal Street 
>> addr:city=Smalltown, Largertown 
>> 
>> But I am pretty sure this is wrong. 
>> 
>> There is a page at 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which 
>> mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use. If 
>> correct I would be tagging as - 
>> 
>> addr:housenumber=99 
>> addr:street=Postal Street 
>> addr:town=Smalltown 
>> addr:city=Largertown 
>> 
>> Hoping someone can advise me as to the correct way to tag for the UK... 
>> 
>> Dave Abbott (OSM user DaveyPorcy)
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

Marking city, town etc is not necessary in UK because Geocoders like nominatim 
can figure those out using afministrative boundaries.

What is important is the housenumber and street:
"addr:housenumber=99
addr:street= Postal Street"

And postcode:
"addr:postcode=XY9 7GY"

Note, all postcodes are available freely:

https://raggedred.net/codepoint/

IpswichMapper-- 
 

20 Dec 2020, 12:45 by dave.abb...@pandaemonia.org:

> Hi,
>
> I am trying to make sure I tag addresses correctly. I am currently trying to 
> understand how to map in my area.
>
> The postal addresses are like:
>
> 99 Postal Street
> Smalltown
> Largertown
> West Yorks XY9 7GY
>
> Smalltown is geographically separate to Largertown, which however is the 
> Postal Town. Omitting Smalltown from the address is probably correct 
> postally-speaking, but local residents would object as Smalltown is seen as 
> completely separate to other places under the same Postal Town.
>
> Currently tagging as -
> addr:housenumber=99
> addr:street=Postal Street
> addr:city=Smalltown, Largertown
>
> But I am pretty sure this is wrong.
>
> There is a page at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which 
> mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use. If 
> correct I would be tagging as -
>
> addr:housenumber=99
> addr:street=Postal Street
> addr:town=Smalltown
> addr:city=Largertown
>
> Hoping someone can advise me as to the correct way to tag for the UK...
>
> Dave Abbott  (OSM user DaveyPorcy)
>

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[Talk-GB] UK street addressing

[Dave Abbott]

Hi,

I am trying to make sure I tag addresses correctly. I am currently 
trying to understand how to map in my area.


The postal addresses are like:

99 Postal Street
Smalltown
Largertown
West Yorks XY9 7GY

Smalltown is geographically separate to Largertown, which however is the 
Postal Town. Omitting Smalltown from the address is probably correct 
postally-speaking, but local residents would object as Smalltown is seen 
as completely separate to other places under the same Postal Town.


Currently tagging as -
addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:city=Smalltown, Largertown

But I am pretty sure this is wrong.

There is a page at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rjw62/UK_Address_Mapping which 
mentions "suggested tags" but there is no evidence that this is in use. 
If correct I would be tagging as -


addr:housenumber=99
addr:street=Postal Street
addr:town=Smalltown
addr:city=Largertown

Hoping someone can advise me as to the correct way to tag for the UK...

Dave Abbott  (OSM user DaveyPorcy)


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[Talk-GB] weeklyOSM #543 2020-12-08-2020-12-14

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 543,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

 https://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/14064/

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
http://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[Talk-GB] Electric forecourt

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi all,

I saw on Fully Charged (YouTube channel) that there is now a electric
vehicle charging forecourt. Unlike others, this is not a couple of charging
points added to an existing petrol station or slapped down in a carpark.
This is a full on electric version of a petrol station (without petrol as
an option).

https://www.gridserve.com/braintree-overview/

Feels like a good time to review how we map them. Do we have the right tags
available?

The wiki has a lot but it seems a bit jumbled. For example, I believe this
site has CCS socket chargers at various kW sizes. Our current tagging
scheme doesn't look like it allows for that. Is this an issue?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcharging_station

Best regards
Rob
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