Re: [Talk-GB] Possible use of OS triangulation stations to determine aerial imagery offset

[Greg]

Hi Dave F,

I haven’t thought too much about the process at this stage, but I was imagining 
it would be done mostly programatically as there are 21,000+ (non-destroyed) 
stations.

However, I was anticipating that there would have to be at least some manual 
intervention to decide whether OS trig stations near OSM ‘survey_point’s are 
the same thing and merge the tags. I’m sure some sort of filtering of 
near-certain, possible and unlikely matches between OS trig stations and OSM 
survey_points will help, but I’m not convinced that setting a hard limit (e.g. 
OSM ‘survey_point’s within 5m of an OS trig station must represent that 
station) will work entirely.

If someone created a single CSV of all the triangulation stations *including 
flush bracket numbers*, perhaps using the data from 
[https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/gps/legacy-control-information/triangulation-stations]
 (which I asked OS about 
[http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Gregrs/Ordnance_Survey_triangulation_stations/Licence_emails])
 the flush bracket numbers could also be checked against any existing OSM 
‘ref’s.

OS customer services helpfully pointed me in the direction of 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/trigonomy/info as another source of flush 
bracket numbers, but I haven’t asked them about licensing, nor have I contacted 
anyone from the Trigpointing website at this stage.

Thanks,
Greg.


> On 2 Sep 2016, at 00:05, Dave F  wrote:
> 
> Could you clarify if by merge/import you mean it to be performed manually or 
> programmatically?
> 
> Personally I think manually is the way to go, possibly as a Quarterly Project 
> asimilar to the schools update. Local knowledge will definitely produce more 
> accurate results.
> I'd use P2's Task to save all that panning around.
> 
> Have you been in contact with anyone from the Trigpointing website?
> 
> Cheers
> Dave F.
> 
> On 01/09/2016 17:16, Greg wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Since my last email, I've analysed the relationship between the OS
>> triangulation station data and OSM 'man_made=survey_point's in Great
>> Britain. You can read about this on my wiki page
>> [http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Gregrs/Ordnance_Survey_triangulation_stations].
>> I believe it may be possible to import/merge this data at some point in
>> the future so I'd be grateful if you could take a look.
>> 
>> I have also converted the data into a GPX file with metadata that can be
>> understood/displayed by JOSM to allow users to more accurately determine
>> the offset of aerial imagery. This can be obtained here:
>> [http://gregrs.dev.openstreetmap.org].
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Greg.
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Aug 19, 2016, at 08:08 PM, Greg wrote:
>>> I'm pleased to say that I have had confirmation from Ordnance Survey
>>> that their triangulation station data can be used under the Open
>>> Government Licence v3. I have documented this on the wiki:
>>> [http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Gregrs/Ordnance_Survey_triangulation_stations].
>>> 
>>> I will try to look into making this data more accessible to the
>>> community so that it can be used to more accurately determine the offset
>>> of aerial imagery. I have experimented with this idea around the Rugby
>>> area and it seems to work well.
>>> 
>>> I am also in the process of analysing the relationship between this data
>>> and the large number of 'man_made=survey_point's already in the database
>>> in order to determine whether it might be feasible/useful to
>>> import/merge the data. It looks like similar data has been imported from
>>> IGN in France. Of course I won't do this until it's been properly
>>> discussed.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Greg.
>>> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Possible use of OS triangulation stations to determine aerial imagery offset

[Dave F]

Could you clarify if by merge/import you mean it to be performed 
manually or programmatically?


Personally I think manually is the way to go, possibly as a Quarterly 
Project asimilar to the schools update. Local knowledge will definitely 
produce more accurate results.

I'd use P2's Task to save all that panning around.

Have you been in contact with anyone from the Trigpointing website?

Cheers
Dave F.

On 01/09/2016 17:16, Greg wrote:

Hi all,

Since my last email, I've analysed the relationship between the OS
triangulation station data and OSM 'man_made=survey_point's in Great
Britain. You can read about this on my wiki page
[http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Gregrs/Ordnance_Survey_triangulation_stations].
I believe it may be possible to import/merge this data at some point in
the future so I'd be grateful if you could take a look.

I have also converted the data into a GPX file with metadata that can be
understood/displayed by JOSM to allow users to more accurately determine
the offset of aerial imagery. This can be obtained here:
[http://gregrs.dev.openstreetmap.org].

Thanks,
Greg.


On Fri, Aug 19, 2016, at 08:08 PM, Greg wrote:

I'm pleased to say that I have had confirmation from Ordnance Survey
that their triangulation station data can be used under the Open
Government Licence v3. I have documented this on the wiki:
[http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Gregrs/Ordnance_Survey_triangulation_stations].

I will try to look into making this data more accessible to the
community so that it can be used to more accurately determine the offset
of aerial imagery. I have experimented with this idea around the Rugby
area and it seems to work well.

I am also in the process of analysing the relationship between this data
and the large number of 'man_made=survey_point's already in the database
in order to determine whether it might be feasible/useful to
import/merge the data. It looks like similar data has been imported from
IGN in France. Of course I won't do this until it's been properly
discussed.

Thanks,
Greg.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Possible use of OS triangulation stations to determine aerial imagery offset

[ael]

On Thu, Sep 01, 2016 at 05:16:42PM +0100, Greg wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I believe it may be possible to import/merge this data at some point in
> the future so I'd be grateful if you could take a look.

It is a pity that the gps passive stations are not included. Example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2513244479

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Possible use of OS triangulation stations to determine aerial imagery offset

[Greg]

Hi all,

Since my last email, I've analysed the relationship between the OS
triangulation station data and OSM 'man_made=survey_point's in Great
Britain. You can read about this on my wiki page
[http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Gregrs/Ordnance_Survey_triangulation_stations].
I believe it may be possible to import/merge this data at some point in
the future so I'd be grateful if you could take a look.

I have also converted the data into a GPX file with metadata that can be
understood/displayed by JOSM to allow users to more accurately determine
the offset of aerial imagery. This can be obtained here:
[http://gregrs.dev.openstreetmap.org].

Thanks,
Greg.


On Fri, Aug 19, 2016, at 08:08 PM, Greg wrote:
> I'm pleased to say that I have had confirmation from Ordnance Survey
> that their triangulation station data can be used under the Open
> Government Licence v3. I have documented this on the wiki:
> [http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Gregrs/Ordnance_Survey_triangulation_stations].
> 
> I will try to look into making this data more accessible to the
> community so that it can be used to more accurately determine the offset
> of aerial imagery. I have experimented with this idea around the Rugby
> area and it seems to work well.
> 
> I am also in the process of analysing the relationship between this data
> and the large number of 'man_made=survey_point's already in the database
> in order to determine whether it might be feasible/useful to
> import/merge the data. It looks like similar data has been imported from
> IGN in France. Of course I won't do this until it's been properly
> discussed.
> 
> Thanks,
> Greg.
> 
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> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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Re: [Talk-GB] Possible use of OS triangulation stations to determine aerial imagery offset

[Greg]

I'm pleased to say that I have had confirmation from Ordnance Survey
that their triangulation station data can be used under the Open
Government Licence v3. I have documented this on the wiki:
[http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Gregrs/Ordnance_Survey_triangulation_stations].

I will try to look into making this data more accessible to the
community so that it can be used to more accurately determine the offset
of aerial imagery. I have experimented with this idea around the Rugby
area and it seems to work well.

I am also in the process of analysing the relationship between this data
and the large number of 'man_made=survey_point's already in the database
in order to determine whether it might be feasible/useful to
import/merge the data. It looks like similar data has been imported from
IGN in France. Of course I won't do this until it's been properly
discussed.

Thanks,
Greg.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Possible use of OS triangulation stations to determine aerial imagery offset

[Greg]

Thanks David. I have contacted OS using the contact form on their
website in the hope that they may publish the data under the OGL. I
think it would be helpful in accurately determining imagery offset.

Thanks,
Greg.


On Tue, Aug 16, 2016, at 09:00 PM, David Woolley wrote:
> On 16/08/16 15:22, Greg wrote:
> > There is also a FOI request with a full CSV file here:
> 
> FOI responses don't remove any copyright and I don't think they even 
> given any right to republish the data.
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Possible use of OS triangulation stations to determine aerial imagery offset

[David Woolley]

On 16/08/16 15:22, Greg wrote:

There is also a FOI request with a full CSV file here:


FOI responses don't remove any copyright and I don't think they even 
given any right to republish the data.


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[Talk-GB] Possible use of OS triangulation stations to determine aerial imagery offset

[Greg]

Dear all,

Ordnance Survey has a database of triangulation stations and their
precise locations as OSGB36 (National Grid) co-ordinates publicly
available here:
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/gps/legacy-control-information/triangulation-stations.
There is also a FOI request with a full CSV file here:
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/about/governance/foi/questions/2015/0056.html.
I'm not sure under what licence the co-ordinates are published though.

It struck me that accurate co-ordinates for the visible stations such as
church spires, masts and water towers could be helpful in accurately
determining the offset of aerial imagery. It's possible to convert the
CSV to a GPX file with WGS84 lat/lon using QGIS (although I couldn't get
JOSM to display the metadata for each point). The imagery can then be
aligned to these points, bearing in mind of course that the imagery is
often taken from an angle (see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Roof_modelling#Drawing_of_simple_building_outlines).

Best wishes,
Greg.

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