[Talk-GB] London Underground roundel
Back in November, in this thread: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2009-November/004996.html we were talking about the possibility of using the London Underground roundel on map renderings. I said I would contact them. My first contact went unanswered, but I chased it up again recently and after an email exchange I spoke to them on the phone as well. Yes, we have permission use it in principle, providing it is reproduced per their design (which is the obvious red circle with a blue bar through it). I have their official file. They also sent a set of design guidelines (as most companies/organisations do when you want to use their logo). But these are aimed at leaflets and stationery etc, not maps, a suprising omission (they require, for example, 25% of the logo size as clear border all round). I discussed this with them on the phone (this mail can serve as a record of that conversation) and they said in our context it is OK to just put a white border around it following the contour of the logo of say 50%-100% the width of the ring/bar, rather like we do for text captions now, just so it is distinctly separated from the background. (They are going to think about revising their guidelines so it takes this kind of use into account). I did point out that A-Z maps use their logo in similar contexts. What we mustn't do is use a dark rule around it or, as A-Z and some others do, put a rule around the whole blue bar as well. A-Z is infringing their guidelines on the central area maps! On the smaller scale maps, they (A-Z) are more or less right, but in some cases the white exclusion zone is not present or very hard to see. So good news in principle. Whether we do it in practice is up to whoever wants to play with mapnik, and whether the operator tags on LU stations are consistent enough for this to be applied to LU and no other metro. I could put in a trac request for it. N.B. I asked in the context of our Mapnik rendering. I see no problem in TAH as well. But as CloudMade is a commercial company, I think it would be unwise to just do it in CloudMade renderings (and likewise others) without them approaching TfL themselves. There's a request form here: https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/media/logos/default.asp I don't think there would be a problem, they seem very friendly, and A-Z is a precedent. I've appended below what I asked (their form ignored my newlines, sorry). David -- I'm writing to ask you about the use of the London Underground roundel logo to indicate tube station positions on a map produced for OpenStreetMap. We know that this is copyrighted and trademarked and it is important for the aims of our project that we don't infringe other people's intellectual property. OpenStreetMap (www.openstreetmap.org) is an initiative to create maps from scratch free of the restrictions normally associated with maps. It is in effect a wikipedia for maps. There are two aspects to this: firstly the map data is stored in a database in an encoded form, and that is OpenStreetMaps primary asset, and is not an issue here; secondly, any number of different renderings of style and content can be produced from that data, a key example being the map that you see by default on the OpenStreetMap web site (we know this internally as the Mapnik rendering) as linked above. We have been discussing on our mailing lists recently about how to represent metro stations. At present Mapnik uses a generic off-blue square (for example, Chancery lane, here: http://osm.org/go/euu4m6X7y- ). This applies throughout the world. However, we'd like to customize this for particular metro systems, and in London that should obviously be the London Underground red and blue roundel instead of the blue square. So my questions are: 1. Is this something we can just do, or do we need permission to use the symbol? 2. Are you able to give permission for this use? 3. Would using it require an acknowledgement? (This might be impractical on the map itself, given the number of metro systems in the world, let alone the number of other potentially customizable logos for shops, hotels etc, but might be possible on a separately linked page). Things to bear in mind: (a) our maps are licensed CCbySA (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/), that is, in essence, anyone can reproduce them free of charge providing the same restrictions are applied to their copy (share alike), and freely available for commercial and non-commercial uses. (b) there is no question of storing the logo in the data itself, merely drawing it on a pictorial representation of the data; that would involve storing a copy in or with the software that generates the rendering (which I think could be accompanied by acknowledgement/restriction/ copyright/trademark information as appropriate) (c) this is a service to map consumers: it must surely be of benefit to TfL that map users can
Re: [Talk-GB] London Underground roundel
Wow, good work. I suppose this will start a flood of localisation requests for other metro systems, this will probably be a good thing - it'll force our mapnik localisation to be made better! (maybe I could target it as a GSoC project for myself...) Regards, Thomas (Edgemaster) David Earl wrote: Back in November, in this thread: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2009-November/004996.html we were talking about the possibility of using the London Underground roundel on map renderings. I said I would contact them. My first contact went unanswered, but I chased it up again recently and after an email exchange I spoke to them on the phone as well. Yes, we have permission use it in principle, providing it is reproduced per their design (which is the obvious red circle with a blue bar through it). I have their official file. They also sent a set of design guidelines (as most companies/organisations do when you want to use their logo). But these are aimed at leaflets and stationery etc, not maps, a suprising omission (they require, for example, 25% of the logo size as clear border all round). I discussed this with them on the phone (this mail can serve as a record of that conversation) and they said in our context it is OK to just put a white border around it following the contour of the logo of say 50%-100% the width of the ring/bar, rather like we do for text captions now, just so it is distinctly separated from the background. (They are going to think about revising their guidelines so it takes this kind of use into account). I did point out that A-Z maps use their logo in similar contexts. What we mustn't do is use a dark rule around it or, as A-Z and some others do, put a rule around the whole blue bar as well. A-Z is infringing their guidelines on the central area maps! On the smaller scale maps, they (A-Z) are more or less right, but in some cases the white exclusion zone is not present or very hard to see. So good news in principle. Whether we do it in practice is up to whoever wants to play with mapnik, and whether the operator tags on LU stations are consistent enough for this to be applied to LU and no other metro. I could put in a trac request for it. N.B. I asked in the context of our Mapnik rendering. I see no problem in TAH as well. But as CloudMade is a commercial company, I think it would be unwise to just do it in CloudMade renderings (and likewise others) without them approaching TfL themselves. There's a request form here: https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/media/logos/default.asp I don't think there would be a problem, they seem very friendly, and A-Z is a precedent. I've appended below what I asked (their form ignored my newlines, sorry). David -- I'm writing to ask you about the use of the London Underground roundel logo to indicate tube station positions on a map produced for OpenStreetMap. We know that this is copyrighted and trademarked and it is important for the aims of our project that we don't infringe other people's intellectual property. OpenStreetMap (www.openstreetmap.org) is an initiative to create maps from scratch free of the restrictions normally associated with maps. It is in effect a wikipedia for maps. There are two aspects to this: firstly the map data is stored in a database in an encoded form, and that is OpenStreetMaps primary asset, and is not an issue here; secondly, any number of different renderings of style and content can be produced from that data, a key example being the map that you see by default on the OpenStreetMap web site (we know this internally as the Mapnik rendering) as linked above. We have been discussing on our mailing lists recently about how to represent metro stations. At present Mapnik uses a generic off-blue square (for example, Chancery lane, here: http://osm.org/go/euu4m6X7y- ). This applies throughout the world. However, we'd like to customize this for particular metro systems, and in London that should obviously be the London Underground red and blue roundel instead of the blue square. So my questions are: 1. Is this something we can just do, or do we need permission to use the symbol? 2. Are you able to give permission for this use? 3. Would using it require an acknowledgement? (This might be impractical on the map itself, given the number of metro systems in the world, let alone the number of other potentially customizable logos for shops, hotels etc, but might be possible on a separately linked page). Things to bear in mind: (a) our maps are licensed CCbySA (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/), that is, in essence, anyone can reproduce them free of charge providing the same restrictions are applied to their copy (share alike), and freely available for commercial and non-commercial uses. (b) there is no question of storing the logo
Re: [Talk-GB] London Underground roundel
On 25/03/2010 13:36, Thomas Wood wrote: Wow, good work. I suppose this will start a flood of localisation requests for other metro systems, this will probably be a good thing - it'll force our mapnik localisation to be made better! (maybe I could target it as a GSoC project for myself...) As long as there is a consistent tag to base it on (e.g. operator) it should be very straightforward (he says, never having looked at the code!)- but in implementation it must be very similar to amnenity=place_of_worship subdividing by religion=christian church icons and religion=islamic mosque icons. I think it's the bureaucracy that is the harder issue. The other question is where do we stop? Do we brand petrol (gas) stations (I quite like that)? Cafe chains like Starbucks (perhaps too much like advertising, but then knowing on the map that a roadside cafe is a Little Chef lets you actively avoid it :-))? Shops with brand=...? Also, some logos just don't work at all that small. David ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] London Underground roundel
On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 2:01 PM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: As long as there is a consistent tag to base it on (e.g. operator) it should be very straightforward (he says, never having looked at the code!)- but in implementation it must be very similar to amnenity=place_of_worship subdividing by religion=christian church icons and religion=islamic mosque icons. I think it's the bureaucracy that is the harder issue. It's the amount of admin required and finding someone that has the time to spend creating, maintaining the logos (and presumably getting permission to use them) and to create the rules. Also, the icons need to be of a certain quality (for mapnik certainly). As a one off it is trivial but... The other question is where do we stop? It's certainly a whole can of worms and once the first one is on the map it will be hard to stop it snowballing. My feeling is that someone keen should investigate this on this own map server before attempting anything like this on the official mapnik layer. But starting the process of collecting logos and permissions is definitely a good thing. -- Brian ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] London Underground roundel
Hi, Tom Chance wrote: We only do it for public services, That is going to be one hell of a definition problem. Isn't London Underground run by some kind of public-private-whatever? And you'll certainly have to exclude DLR then as they are operated by a private company. Oh wait, they are *owned* by TfL so maybe they would qualify... ;-) Bye Frederik ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] London Underground roundel
On 25 March 2010 14:50, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Tom Chance wrote: We only do it for public services, That is going to be one hell of a definition problem. Isn't London Underground run by some kind of public-private-whatever? And you'll certainly have to exclude DLR then as they are operated by a private company. Oh wait, they are *owned* by TfL so maybe they would qualify... ;-) No, it should very simple. TfL contract different services out but they remain public services managed and financed by TfL. We might also use the National Rail symbol for our train stations, but not FirstGroup, National Express, etc. for individual services. We wouldn't use a Thames Water logo for their facilities, nor would we use a particular cab company's logo for cab ranks. Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] London Underground roundel
On 25 March 2010 15:03, Tom Chance t...@acrewoods.net wrote: On 25 March 2010 14:50, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Tom Chance wrote: We only do it for public services, That is going to be one hell of a definition problem. Isn't London Underground run by some kind of public-private-whatever? And you'll certainly have to exclude DLR then as they are operated by a private company. Oh wait, they are *owned* by TfL so maybe they would qualify... ;-) No, it should very simple. TfL contract different services out but they remain public services managed and financed by TfL. We might also use the National Rail symbol for our train stations, but not FirstGroup, National Express, etc. for individual services. We wouldn't use a Thames Water logo for their facilities, nor would we use a particular cab company's logo for cab ranks. I don't think it should be a problem, The standard TFL logo (Red Circle with a Blue Line Through the middle) means any part of London Public Transport. (That means Underground, Overground, TFL, Buses, Croydon Trams, DLR, and I even think we could use it to signify any station/stop where an Oyster/Travel Card can be used. However we may also want to use the Good Old standard British Rail Sideways Z for that. (if we can get permission) However I think we need to use something standard that is the same world wide on our main maps so Underground in Washington DC looks the same as Paris, London, or Moscow. Peter. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] London Underground roundel
Good Work David! Tom Chance wrote: We only do it for public services, otherwise OSM gets into the business of promoting particular companies. In your other examples the name tag and the correct use of amenity/shop/etc should be plenty for the everyday OSM renders (i.e. mapnik and TAH on osm.org http://osm.org). There is no difference between a logo the name tag. They both promote those companies equally when displayed on the map. Whether or not they should have a logo is another matter for discussion. Regards Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
