Re: [Talk-GB] Definitive source for UK streetnames? - OS, 'road name signs', or a council 'list'?
On 06/08/2010 15:07, Lester Caine wrote: Tom Hughes wrote: OS don't have to follow the 'updates' ;) In fact they deliberately add easter eggs here so as to protect their data, but hopefully the new 'system' will eliminate that from the equation. I may be wrong, but I thought OS categorically denied adding falsities to their data. Others, such as A&Z do. Cheers Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Definitive source for UK streetnames? - OS, 'road name signs', or a council 'list'?
I recall an intriguing case from one of the very first mapping parties in
Rutland.
The mapping party was held at Oakam Museum in Catmos Street. It's always
been called Catmos Street. It's referred to as Catmos Street in a Francis
Frith photo from the 1950s and it was still called Catmos Street in the
1970s when I actually lived there for a while. Trouble is Oakham is located
in the middle of the Vale of Catmose, with an E, so many people think the
road name is wrong. So what's it called today?
1. On the ground it is clearly shown as Catmos Street on three separate
street signs.
2. OSM had it as Catmos Street from 2006 until 2009 when it was changed to
Catmose Street.
3. Oakham Library, which is on this road, refers to it as Catmos Street.
4. Rutland Museum, which is on this road, refers to it as Catmose Street.
Fortunately Rutland County Council's offices are also on this road so we can
be sure of a definitive answer from them. Their website refers to it as
just ... Catmose.
And just around the corner Catmos(e) Park Road has two street signs. One
labelled Catmos Park Road and the other Catmose Park Road.
As for Google Maps, well they refer to it as Uppingham Road.
80n
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 4:43 PM, John Robert Peterson wrote:
> This is a more fundamental problem than "which source is the correct one"
> -- names aren't properly defined to begin with.
>
> The source for most of these names is simply what locals referred to things
> as 100 years ago, and what managed to stick when some bloke on a horse with
> a clipboard asked them.
>
> For example "New Hall Hill" was likely a road that went up a hill to a hall
> that had recently been built. if tho bloke with the clipboard had have
> arrived 10 years later, it would likely have been noted as "Hall Hill" or if
> he'd asked someone at the other end of the road, he'd likely have gotten
> "Old Village Valley Lane" etc.
>
> There is a lane a few miles from me, it had no name, but it had a doctor's
> surgery near it. A few decades ago, some surveyer asked a local what it was
> called and was told "Harley Street" (in reference to the street in london
> with doctors surgeries on it) purly as a joke. This landed on an OS map, and
> ended up on a road sign. This name came out of nowhere, but is now just as
> much of a real name as any other road in the country.
>
> There is also the problem that there are disagreements going on all the
> time about what places should be named, Where I come from, there is a local
> "debate" stagnating about the "boundary" between 2 areas (I personally
> belive that they overlap). One of these areas is named after a farm, and one
> side of the argument goes that the name refers to the farm, and not the
> area, so the name shouldn't be used. By that logic half the place names in
> the country should be removed.
>
> Back on topic, (in my opinion) a place name is valid if a significant
> number of people use the name. places, roads etc can all have multiple
> names, and strategies of using alt names should be used.
>
> The actual "name" field should be set at the most commonly used name. This
> should almost certainly be the name on the road signs, however as noted,
> this is not always clear cut, and I know of at least once instance where the
> only road sign has a blatant spelling mistake in it.
>
> If all else fails the locals should be consulted (and actually listened
> to), as it's them that actually define this stuff for real. In an ideal
> world, a full election of everyone on the electoral roll living on the
> street would be good, not that that's even remotely feasible. at the end of
> the day common sens needs to take over.
>
> The first 3 lines of my parents' address are all debatable to varying
> degrees, so this isn't actually an infrequent issue. Someone from far away
> using widely held beliefs about the name of the county, and consulting
> widely spread data about the naming of where they live could have serious
> problems trying to find them.
>
> So in summery, use the best info that you have available:
> 1) residents knowledge -- this is the closet to authoritive you can get
> 2) other local knowledge/signs
> 4) other data sources -- all of which can be subject to "errors"
>
> but include everything that you can and have time to, as even erroneous
> data will be searched for.
>
> JR
>
>
> On 6 August 2010 15:34, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, August 6, 2010 13:33, Jason Cunningham wrote:
>>
>> > The classic problem is where the road street sign says something like
>> > 'Dukes Drive' but OS locator states Duke's Drive.
>>
>> > Has anyone heard of how this problem is dealt with by authorities
>>
>> Would stripping punctuation (and perhaps white space ("New Hall Hill" vs
>> "Newhall Hill") before making comparisons cause any problems?
>>
>> --
>> Andy Mabbett
>> @pigsonthewing
>> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB@o
Re: [Talk-GB] Definitive source for UK streetnames? - OS, 'road name signs', or a council 'list'?
This is a more fundamental problem than "which source is the correct one" --
names aren't properly defined to begin with.
The source for most of these names is simply what locals referred to things
as 100 years ago, and what managed to stick when some bloke on a horse with
a clipboard asked them.
For example "New Hall Hill" was likely a road that went up a hill to a hall
that had recently been built. if tho bloke with the clipboard had have
arrived 10 years later, it would likely have been noted as "Hall Hill" or if
he'd asked someone at the other end of the road, he'd likely have gotten
"Old Village Valley Lane" etc.
There is a lane a few miles from me, it had no name, but it had a doctor's
surgery near it. A few decades ago, some surveyer asked a local what it was
called and was told "Harley Street" (in reference to the street in london
with doctors surgeries on it) purly as a joke. This landed on an OS map, and
ended up on a road sign. This name came out of nowhere, but is now just as
much of a real name as any other road in the country.
There is also the problem that there are disagreements going on all the time
about what places should be named, Where I come from, there is a local
"debate" stagnating about the "boundary" between 2 areas (I personally
belive that they overlap). One of these areas is named after a farm, and one
side of the argument goes that the name refers to the farm, and not the
area, so the name shouldn't be used. By that logic half the place names in
the country should be removed.
Back on topic, (in my opinion) a place name is valid if a significant number
of people use the name. places, roads etc can all have multiple names, and
strategies of using alt names should be used.
The actual "name" field should be set at the most commonly used name. This
should almost certainly be the name on the road signs, however as noted,
this is not always clear cut, and I know of at least once instance where the
only road sign has a blatant spelling mistake in it.
If all else fails the locals should be consulted (and actually listened to),
as it's them that actually define this stuff for real. In an ideal world, a
full election of everyone on the electoral roll living on the street would
be good, not that that's even remotely feasible. at the end of the day
common sens needs to take over.
The first 3 lines of my parents' address are all debatable to varying
degrees, so this isn't actually an infrequent issue. Someone from far away
using widely held beliefs about the name of the county, and consulting
widely spread data about the naming of where they live could have serious
problems trying to find them.
So in summery, use the best info that you have available:
1) residents knowledge -- this is the closet to authoritive you can get
2) other local knowledge/signs
4) other data sources -- all of which can be subject to "errors"
but include everything that you can and have time to, as even erroneous data
will be searched for.
JR
On 6 August 2010 15:34, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> On Fri, August 6, 2010 13:33, Jason Cunningham wrote:
>
> > The classic problem is where the road street sign says something like
> > 'Dukes Drive' but OS locator states Duke's Drive.
>
> > Has anyone heard of how this problem is dealt with by authorities
>
> Would stripping punctuation (and perhaps white space ("New Hall Hill" vs
> "Newhall Hill") before making comparisons cause any problems?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Definitive source for UK streetnames? - OS, 'road name signs', or a council 'list'?
On Fri, August 6, 2010 13:33, Jason Cunningham wrote:
> The classic problem is where the road street sign says something like
> 'Dukes Drive' but OS locator states Duke's Drive.
> Has anyone heard of how this problem is dealt with by authorities
Would stripping punctuation (and perhaps white space ("New Hall Hill" vs
"Newhall Hill") before making comparisons cause any problems?
--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
___
Talk-GB mailing list
Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Definitive source for UK streetnames? - OS, 'road name signs', or a council 'list'?
Tom Hughes wrote: On 06/08/10 14:36, Lester Caine wrote: The councils will be be working to the street table in their LLPG data, and it is that which is supplied TO OS as the 'correct' local information. There is even a mechanism for advising changes and new streets in the update format. Which doesn't explain why Hertfordshire's gazetteer often seems to disagree with the OS about names ;-) OS don't have to follow the 'updates' ;) In fact they deliberately add easter eggs here so as to protect their data, but hopefully the new 'system' will eliminate that from the equation. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Definitive source for UK streetnames? - OS, 'road name signs', or a council 'list'?
On 06/08/10 14:36, Lester Caine wrote: The councils will be be working to the street table in their LLPG data, and it is that which is supplied TO OS as the 'correct' local information. There is even a mechanism for advising changes and new streets in the update format. Which doesn't explain why Hertfordshire's gazetteer often seems to disagree with the OS about names ;-) Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Definitive source for UK streetnames? - OS, 'road name signs', or a council 'list'?
Jason Cunningham wrote: Just read through a short discussion about differences in street names in OSM and 'OS Locator', and problems caused by differences in names given The classic problem is where the road street sign says something like 'Dukes Drive' but OS locator states Duke's Drive. Noticed that common view was OSM mapped what was on the ground, so road sign name was added. Having come across roads where road names differ on adjacent roads signs, I'm not too sure road signs can be 100% relied on, but OS also clearly make mistakes. Has anyone heard of how this problem is dealt with by authorities (eg councils) as they seem to rely on OS as a definitive source for mapping data. The councils will be be working to the street table in their LLPG data, and it is that which is supplied TO OS as the 'correct' local information. There is even a mechanism for advising changes and new streets in the update format. The one thing that is worth noting in this is that POSTCODE is not a requirement in this data, only the NLPG references. Of cause what is more anoying is that while we all pay to create the data via our council tax, http://www.thensg.org.uk/ is owned by a commercial operation that then makes money out of it :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Definitive source for UK streetnames? - OS, 'road name signs', or a council 'list'?
I'm not really answering your question here, but thought I'd add in my two pennies: I use OSM data as the map in Navit, a sat-nav program. From my personal point of view, I find it very handy for the sat-nav to direct me to roads which have the same name as the road signs, irrespective of what the 'correct' name is. I've once come across two conflicting street signs at either end of the road, and decided to use the one which was the same as the OS Locator and StreetView data. What authorities do, I have no idea. As I say, I wasn't answering the question. Ignore me. :) Tim --- On Fri, 6/8/10, Jason Cunningham wrote: From: Jason Cunningham Subject: [Talk-GB] Definitive source for UK streetnames? - OS, 'road name signs', or a council 'list'? To: "Talk GB" Date: Friday, 6 August, 2010, 13:33 Just read through a short discussion about differences in street names in OSM and 'OS Locator', and problems caused by differences in names given The classic problem is where the road street sign says something like 'Dukes Drive' but OS locator states Duke's Drive. Noticed that common view was OSM mapped what was on the ground, so road sign name was added. Having come across roads where road names differ on adjacent roads signs, I'm not too sure road signs can be 100% relied on, but OS also clearly make mistakes. Has anyone heard of how this problem is dealt with by authorities (eg councils) as they seem to rely on OS as a definitive source for mapping data. Jason -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
