Re: [talk-ph] Philippine addressing system for OSM
If we could create a sensible addressing at least for Metro Manila we can invite businesses to add their address to osm On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:36 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have been discussing with rally about adding addresses to osm. We all know it's messy here in the Philippines but rally outlined an even more messy situation! I hope we can pool our minds together to come-up with a sensible addressing format for the Philippines. I've started a wikipage to collect some notes http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Philippines/Philippine_addressing I suggest we adopt the Karlsruhe Schema and adopt all possible tags that fit the Philippines. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Address here's the email from rally (background rally works in courier service so he knows this stuff very well): == housenumber : number or alphanumeric (eg 12-C, 5-A), or LOT/BLK/PHASE no. housename: for addresses on Avenues (eg. ortigas ave ext or manila east roads) that has no street number, but building names only street: sometimes blank (for sitios with no streets; of for subdivisions with no streets - using Lot/Block/Phase) state -- not applicable for NCR: postcode: zipcode Note: In the US, zipcode combined with house number and street name are enough info for a package to be delivered. because their expanded zipcode makes the equivalent barangay, sitio, town, city, state becomes redundant info. a specific expanded ZIP points to a small specific area in the country. So, once a messenger reached that zipcode area, all he has to do is look for the street and house number. sometimes it includes APT or SPC (apartment or Space number). no need to specify condo or name of townhouse (as they consume extra space in the database). The dream is for every filipino living in a specific area, to know his/her expanded zipcode. maybe, all he needs to do is dial his landline on his area, and the computer answers back with the correct zipcode; or simply ask the barangay tanod for their zipcode. then, there's no need to memorize the name of apartment, condo, building name, project subdivision. that way, typo error don't matter as long as the zipcode is correct. according to wiki, Taytay Rizal is 41square Km. yet the zip code is one 4-digit number for the entire town. Now what's the use of this zipcode to a messenger? no use. my point is, after the tag addr:street we must go to many other sub-levels before going to city or town. some barangays in the philppines are just too big for one expanded zipcode, so we further divide it into sitio or big village or big subdivision... wait, it's not that easy to teach and implement. what complicates the address system is the inefficient use of address fields in paper forms: rural and city addresses need different forms. NCR have districts and barangays but don't have provinces, and sitios and puroks are not that many. RURAL AREAS have provinces and barangays, but have lots of sitios and puroks, but practically no districts (except for congressional districts which is not used on Address system) - because congressional district keeps on changing very often. since there are lots of streetname duplication in a particular town, rural addresses need to specify subdivision name, or sitio or purok name or neighborhood association name; else the mails get lost. There are no laws governing the naming of streets. it's a free-for-all system for LGU to name it to any names they like. if we use all fields (1) house number or Lot/Blk/Phase, (2) Floor Number, (3) building name or Apartment name, (4) streetname, (5) sitio or purok, (6) subdivision name (or project name), (7) barangay name, (8) town or city name, (9) province, (10) regions name, (11) country name, (12) zip code... gosh there's a lot of field that will be blank or be filled up with a lot of N/A's because: 1. some don't have House number, but Lot/Blk/Phase --- How do you search Lot Block Phase? Doesn't make sense and creates logistical nightmare. One block normally covers 3-4 streets (on all sides) - not environment friendly - lots of fuel spent searching. 2. If Lot/Blk/Phase is used, then some don't use street names (especially for those subd given permit to sell even without naming their streets), then after a few years put names on the street and mess up the address database. 3. if they don't live in a building, then what's the use of Floor Number and building name field? (imagine the precious terabytes wasted on the harddrive trying to reserved space for these unused space on a typical database) 4. some buildings are condos, some office/residential (so we use building field to enter the condo name) when some would insist that it should be on the Projects Name --- same field reserved for Subdivision Name so which- which? what about a townhouse, since these
Re: [talk-ph] Philippine addressing system for OSM
I don't think this is just an OSM-PH problem. If we can create a nice extensible system, we can share it as an addressing standard that can be used by everyone in the Philippines. This begs the question: how do other companies/organizations/DHL/FedEx deal with the addressing mess in the Philippines? If these are not trade secrets, we should talk to them and see what systems are in place and how we can improve on them and create a standard. Regarding the problem of database space waste, this isn't a problem for OSM since we only add key=value tags as necessary. Fields that are blank just don't exist (i.e., aren't tagged) for that geographic feature. I guess this is why the addressing system in Google Map Maker is extremely broken for the Philippines; people just don't know what to put in the sub-locality, locality, city, district/county, state fields in Google Map Maker. I've seen this really fantastic address there once: Taguig, Makati, Manila, National Capital Region, Philippines. In some instances, I've tried to correct the addresses by inputing Fort Bonifacio as the barangay (under the locality field) since Fort Bonifacio was one of the several barangays created in Taguig City late last year (see this NSCB press release: http://www.nscb.gov.ph/pressreleases/2009/PR-200902-PP2-01PSGC.asp). And you know what? Google Map Maker rejected my changes since it did not recognize Fort Bonifacio as a valid name. (So I said, screw Map Maker.) Anyway, I have never lived in the provinces, only in Metro Manila, so I'm not at all familiar with the purok/sitio system that seems to be often used in rural areas. What I do know is that most folks in Metro Manila do not even know what barangay they live in. On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:41 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: If we could create a sensible addressing at least for Metro Manila we can invite businesses to add their address to osm On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:36 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have been discussing with rally about adding addresses to osm. We all know it's messy here in the Philippines but rally outlined an even more messy situation! I hope we can pool our minds together to come-up with a sensible addressing format for the Philippines. I've started a wikipage to collect some notes http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Philippines/Philippine_addressing I suggest we adopt the Karlsruhe Schema and adopt all possible tags that fit the Philippines. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Address here's the email from rally (background rally works in courier service so he knows this stuff very well): == housenumber : number or alphanumeric (eg 12-C, 5-A), or LOT/BLK/PHASE no. housename: for addresses on Avenues (eg. ortigas ave ext or manila east roads) that has no street number, but building names only street: sometimes blank (for sitios with no streets; of for subdivisions with no streets - using Lot/Block/Phase) state -- not applicable for NCR: postcode: zipcode Note: In the US, zipcode combined with house number and street name are enough info for a package to be delivered. because their expanded zipcode makes the equivalent barangay, sitio, town, city, state becomes redundant info. a specific expanded ZIP points to a small specific area in the country. So, once a messenger reached that zipcode area, all he has to do is look for the street and house number. sometimes it includes APT or SPC (apartment or Space number). no need to specify condo or name of townhouse (as they consume extra space in the database). The dream is for every filipino living in a specific area, to know his/her expanded zipcode. maybe, all he needs to do is dial his landline on his area, and the computer answers back with the correct zipcode; or simply ask the barangay tanod for their zipcode. then, there's no need to memorize the name of apartment, condo, building name, project subdivision. that way, typo error don't matter as long as the zipcode is correct. according to wiki, Taytay Rizal is 41square Km. yet the zip code is one 4-digit number for the entire town. Now what's the use of this zipcode to a messenger? no use. my point is, after the tag addr:street we must go to many other sub-levels before going to city or town. some barangays in the philppines are just too big for one expanded zipcode, so we further divide it into sitio or big village or big subdivision... wait, it's not that easy to teach and implement. what complicates the address system is the inefficient use of address fields in paper forms: rural and city addresses need different forms. NCR have districts and barangays but don't have provinces, and sitios and puroks are not that many. RURAL AREAS have provinces and barangays, but have lots of sitios and puroks,
Re: [talk-ph] Philippine addressing system for OSM
I made draft schema based on Karlsruhe Schema with several modifications http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Philippines/Philippine_addressing#Proposed_schema For comments On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:39 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 10:36 AM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: idiot-proof efficient address system. :-) I don't think it will be :), but I'm hoping we can make a workable plan -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Philippine addressing system for OSM
I get worried when people start talking about addressing here. :) What you would have to reference here is the land title information. I know its not good but it is correct, to a point. But this would mean a different approach to mapping which would be very difficult information (land titles) to obtain. What we need is to be able to use the address data for efficient service delivery. This house orders pizza, how do we get there? DHL and Fedex secret is the telephone number on the slip.. The post office is the one with the best system.. Even if it is broke also. ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
