Re: [Talk-transit] Talk-transit Digest, Vol 104, Issue 1

[Tony Shield]

Agree with Jo about ballpark figure - similar operator activities occur 
in UK.


On 14/10/2020 13:48, Jo wrote:
Number of seats may work. But it would have to be a ballpark figure. 
Over here in Belgium, the same line uses bendy and normal buses 
depending on the hour of the day, or on what they have available at 
that specific time.


On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 14:09 Tony Shield > wrote:


Hi Alex

Michael Tsang asked a very similar question  about minibus routes
a few days ago.

My view is that a minibus as just that - a small bus
differentiated by the number of seats. From that I take the view
that perhaps we should be noting the number of seats/places
available on a bus service - e.g some double deckers have 80
seats, single deckers 15-60, bendy-buses - approx 140.

Using seats metric could also be applied to other transport
formats - so a Settle-Carlisle class 156 2 car train set has
approx 150 seats, a class 800 9 car train set has 611 seats;
Sydney ferries have capacities between 400 and 1150.

So service capacity may be a better metric.

Tony Shield

TonyS999

/I'm looking for community consensus about minibus routes (public
transport routes which are operated by light passenger vehicles of
roughly 8 to 20 seats with no standing allowed in general). As of
present, there are two kinds of tagging for minibus routes:/
//
/
/
//
/A. route=minibus (~30 routes around the world)/
//
/B. route=bus & bus=minibus (~300 routes around the world)/
//
/
/
//
/None of the tags seem to have widespread usage./
//
/
/
//
/Currently I can't see any renderer support for both tagging. For
option A, no renderer shows them at all. For option B, they are
shown as regular bus routes./
//
/
/
//
/Moreover, I can think of different regulatory scenarios, which
may match the different usage:/
//
/
/
//
/X. The minibus services are regulated as a separate class of
service to full-sized bus routes, with different operators,
network and fare structures, which may even with numbers
overlapping (e.g. a minibus route 25 and another full sized bus
route 25 serving the same area)/
//
/
/
//
/Y. The minibus services form a part of the bus network but with
distinct identities (e.g. a range of numbers reserved for minibus
routes and another range for full sized bus routes, with different
fare scales but still in the integrated ticket structure)/
//
/
/
//
/Z. There are no distinction in the branding between bus and
minibus services, the vehicle used mainly depend on the environment./
//
/
/
//
/Tagging A will match scenario X and tagging B will match scenario
Z, with scenario Y in between in my thinking./
//
/
/
//
/I'm looking for input how other people map their minibus routes,
and how are their routes regulated./


On 13/10/2020 12:27, Alex Dhawan wrote:


Hi all,

Never actually sent a message to this list, hopefully this works.

We’ve got a number of minibus routes around the Yorkshire Dales
here in Northern England. Currently the ones that appear in OSM
are just tagged as route=bus – with nothing distinguishing them
from full size standard buses.

Personally of your options I’d be tempted to go with B – at least
here they are treated as bus routes in most ways, just happen to
be minibuses. They do mostly have different branding, but in most
cases are intregrated fare and ticket wise, and in some cases to
overlap with standard bus routes, but do have different numbers,
although there is not a set “range” so unless you know in advance
you couldn’t tell from just the number. At least from my local
experience they are close enough to standard bus routes for most
purposes.

That said to give one example – precovid I used to take groups
walking or caving, and we often went on the buses and usually
made a specific point of avoiding the minibus routes. We’d take
out all the seats if we turned up. In the PDF timetables it will
be marked if a route is a minibus, but not on journey
planners/Google maps.

Skifans

*From: *talk-transit-requ...@openstreetmap.org

*Sent: *13 October 2020 12:09
*To: *talk-transit@openstreetmap.org

*Subject: *Talk-transit Digest, Vol 104, Issue 1

S


___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org  
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org 

Re: [Talk-transit] Talk-transit Digest, Vol 104, Issue 1

[Jo]

Number of seats may work. But it would have to be a ballpark figure. Over
here in Belgium, the same line uses bendy and normal buses depending on the
hour of the day, or on what they have available at that specific time.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 14:09 Tony Shield  wrote:

> Hi Alex
>
> Michael Tsang asked a very similar question  about minibus routes a few
> days ago.
>
> My view is that a minibus as just that - a small bus differentiated by the
> number of seats. From that I take the view that perhaps we should be noting
> the number of seats/places available on a bus service - e.g some double
> deckers have 80 seats, single deckers 15-60, bendy-buses - approx 140.
>
> Using seats metric could also be applied to other transport formats - so a
> Settle-Carlisle class 156 2 car train set has approx 150 seats, a class 800
> 9 car train set has 611 seats; Sydney ferries have capacities between 400
> and 1150.
>
> So service capacity may be a better metric.
>
> Tony Shield
>
> TonyS999
> *I'm looking for community consensus about minibus routes (public
> transport routes which are operated by light passenger vehicles of roughly
> 8 to 20 seats with no standing allowed in general). As of present, there
> are two kinds of tagging for minibus routes:*
>
> * A. route=minibus (~30 routes around the world)*
> * B. route=bus & bus=minibus (~300 routes around the world)*
>
> * None of the tags seem to have widespread usage.*
>
> * Currently I can't see any renderer support for both tagging. For option
> A, no renderer shows them at all. For option B, they are shown as regular
> bus routes.*
>
> * Moreover, I can think of different regulatory scenarios, which may match
> the different usage:*
>
> * X. The minibus services are regulated as a separate class of service to
> full-sized bus routes, with different operators, network and fare
> structures, which may even with numbers overlapping (e.g. a minibus route
> 25 and another full sized bus route 25 serving the same area)*
>
> * Y. The minibus services form a part of the bus network but with distinct
> identities (e.g. a range of numbers reserved for minibus routes and another
> range for full sized bus routes, with different fare scales but still in
> the integrated ticket structure)*
>
> * Z. There are no distinction in the branding between bus and minibus
> services, the vehicle used mainly depend on the environment.*
>
> * Tagging A will match scenario X and tagging B will match scenario Z,
> with scenario Y in between in my thinking.*
>
> * I'm looking for input how other people map their minibus routes, and how
> are their routes regulated.*
>
>
> On 13/10/2020 12:27, Alex Dhawan wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> Never actually sent a message to this list, hopefully this works.
>
>
>
> We’ve got a number of minibus routes around the Yorkshire Dales here in
> Northern England. Currently the ones that appear in OSM are just tagged as
> route=bus – with nothing distinguishing them from full size standard buses.
>
>
>
> Personally of your options I’d be tempted to go with B – at least here
> they are treated as bus routes in most ways, just happen to be minibuses.
> They do mostly have different branding, but in most cases are intregrated
> fare and ticket wise, and in some cases to overlap with standard bus
> routes, but do have different numbers, although there is not a set “range”
> so unless you know in advance you couldn’t tell from just the number. At
> least from my local experience they are close enough to standard bus routes
> for most purposes.
>
>
>
> That said to give one example – precovid I used to take groups walking or
> caving, and we often went on the buses and usually made a specific point of
> avoiding the minibus routes. We’d take out all the seats if we turned up.
> In the PDF timetables it will be marked if a route is a minibus, but not on
> journey planners/Google maps.
>
>
>
> Skifans
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *talk-transit-requ...@openstreetmap.org
> *Sent: *13 October 2020 12:09
> *To: *talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject: *Talk-transit Digest, Vol 104, Issue 1
>
>
>
> S
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-transit mailing 
> listTalk-transit@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
> ___
> Talk-transit mailing list
> Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

Re: [Talk-transit] Talk-transit Digest, Vol 104, Issue 1

[Tony Shield]

Hi Alex

Michael Tsang asked a very similar question  about minibus routes a few 
days ago.


My view is that a minibus as just that - a small bus differentiated by 
the number of seats. From that I take the view that perhaps we should be 
noting the number of seats/places available on a bus service - e.g some 
double deckers have 80 seats, single deckers 15-60, bendy-buses - approx 
140.


Using seats metric could also be applied to other transport formats - so 
a Settle-Carlisle class 156 2 car train set has approx 150 seats, a 
class 800 9 car train set has 611 seats; Sydney ferries have capacities 
between 400 and 1150.


So service capacity may be a better metric.

Tony Shield

TonyS999

/I'm looking for community consensus about minibus routes (public 
transport routes which are operated by light passenger vehicles of 
roughly 8 to 20 seats with no standing allowed in general). As of 
present, there are two kinds of tagging for minibus routes:/

//
/
/
//
/A. route=minibus (~30 routes around the world)/
//
/B. route=bus & bus=minibus (~300 routes around the world)/
//
/
/
//
/None of the tags seem to have widespread usage./
//
/
/
//
/Currently I can't see any renderer support for both tagging. For option 
A, no renderer shows them at all. For option B, they are shown as 
regular bus routes./

//
/
/
//
/Moreover, I can think of different regulatory scenarios, which may 
match the different usage:/

//
/
/
//
/X. The minibus services are regulated as a separate class of service to 
full-sized bus routes, with different operators, network and fare 
structures, which may even with numbers overlapping (e.g. a minibus 
route 25 and another full sized bus route 25 serving the same area)/

//
/
/
//
/Y. The minibus services form a part of the bus network but with 
distinct identities (e.g. a range of numbers reserved for minibus routes 
and another range for full sized bus routes, with different fare scales 
but still in the integrated ticket structure)/

//
/
/
//
/Z. There are no distinction in the branding between bus and minibus 
services, the vehicle used mainly depend on the environment./

//
/
/
//
/Tagging A will match scenario X and tagging B will match scenario Z, 
with scenario Y in between in my thinking./

//
/
/
//
/I'm looking for input how other people map their minibus routes, and 
how are their routes regulated./



On 13/10/2020 12:27, Alex Dhawan wrote:


Hi all,

Never actually sent a message to this list, hopefully this works.

We’ve got a number of minibus routes around the Yorkshire Dales here 
in Northern England. Currently the ones that appear in OSM are just 
tagged as route=bus – with nothing distinguishing them from full size 
standard buses.


Personally of your options I’d be tempted to go with B – at least here 
they are treated as bus routes in most ways, just happen to be 
minibuses. They do mostly have different branding, but in most cases 
are intregrated fare and ticket wise, and in some cases to overlap 
with standard bus routes, but do have different numbers, although 
there is not a set “range” so unless you know in advance you couldn’t 
tell from just the number. At least from my local experience they are 
close enough to standard bus routes for most purposes.


That said to give one example – precovid I used to take groups walking 
or caving, and we often went on the buses and usually made a specific 
point of avoiding the minibus routes. We’d take out all the seats if 
we turned up. In the PDF timetables it will be marked if a route is a 
minibus, but not on journey planners/Google maps.


Skifans

*From: *talk-transit-requ...@openstreetmap.org 


*Sent: *13 October 2020 12:09
*To: *talk-transit@openstreetmap.org 


*Subject: *Talk-transit Digest, Vol 104, Issue 1

S


___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
___
Talk-transit mailing list
Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit