Re: [Talk-transit] Old Railways

[Tijmen Stam]

On 18-05-19 17:40, Tim Saunders wrote:
I suspect I am a lone voice but I don't agree.  The thing that 
differentiates railways from a lot of historical features is they form a 
network, some if which is still an operating railway and a lot of which 
is still visible in the ground.  Having the extant sections in one 
database and the razed/dismantled sections in another is just making it 
unnecessarily complex to form a picture of the entire network, which for 
the sake of a few additional ways on OSM (which I agree would not 
generally be rendered) can be easily solved.


Roads do also form a network. And it would be equally interesting to see 
how roads from yesteryear connected to it. Yet we don't keep those on 
OSM (I personally removed miles of highway, from two different highways, 
the minute they went out of use - or actually I didn't, I first made 
them highway=road as the actual tarmac stayed visible for a few 
months/years)




Regards,

Tim Saunders


Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 16:03:43 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mateusz Konieczny 
Cc: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
     
Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Old railways
This is undesirable, OSM is not a place to map historic data. When I 
encounter such mismapped

objects I remove them.

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Re: [Talk-transit] Old Railways

[Tigerfell]

Maybe, the OpenRailwayMap mailing list openrailway...@openrailwaymap.org 
 might be helpful? I can not access 
their archives so I do not know if it is active, but it might be worth a try.


May 18, 2019, 10:55 p.m. by nice...@att.net:

> Tim,
>  This is a good point, but what if OpenRailwayMap were able to pull from 
> OpenHistoricalMap to generate a complete picture of the network? I say 
> 'picture' because it wouldn't be connected for routing purposes, but it 
> should appear connected on a map tile.   I have no idea how much additional 
> work that would be for OpenRailwayMap to show.
>
> On 5/18/2019 11:40 AM, Tim Saunders wrote:
>
>> I suspect I am a lone voice but I don't agree.� The thing that 
>> differentiates railways from a lot of historical features is they form a 
>> network, some if which is still an operating railway and a lot of which is 
>> still visible in the ground.� Having the extant sections in one database 
>> and the razed/dismantled sections in another is just making it unnecessarily 
>> complex to form a picture of the entire network, which for the sake of a few 
>> additional ways on OSM (which I agree would not generally be rendered) can 
>> be easily solved.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tim Saunders
>>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] Old Railways

[Mike N]

Tim,
  This is a good point, but what if OpenRailwayMap were able to pull 
from OpenHistoricalMap to generate a complete picture of the network? 
I say 'picture' because it wouldn't be connected for routing purposes, 
but it should appear connected on a map tile.   I have no idea how much 
additional work that would be for OpenRailwayMap to show.


On 5/18/2019 11:40 AM, Tim Saunders wrote:
I suspect I am a lone voice but I don't agree.� The thing that 
differentiates railways from a lot of historical features is they form a 
network, some if which is still an operating railway and a lot of which 
is still visible in the ground.� Having the extant sections in one 
database and the razed/dismantled sections in another is just making it 
unnecessarily complex to form a picture of the entire network, which for 
the sake of a few additional ways on OSM (which I agree would not 
generally be rendered) can be easily solved.


Regards,

Tim Saunders



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Re: [Talk-transit] Old Railways

[Tim Saunders]

I suspect I am a lone voice but I don't agree.  The thing that differentiates 
railways from a lot of historical features is they form a network, some if 
which is still an operating railway and a lot of which is still visible in the 
ground.  Having the extant sections in one database and the razed/dismantled 
sections in another is just making it unnecessarily complex to form a picture 
of the entire network, which for the sake of a few additional ways on OSM 
(which I agree would not generally be rendered) can be easily solved.

Regards,

Tim Saunders


Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 16:03:43 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mateusz Konieczny 
Cc: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics

Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] Old railways
This is undesirable, OSM is not a place to map historic data. When I encounter 
such mismapped
objects I remove them.
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Re: [Talk-transit] Old railways

[Mateusz Konieczny]

12 May 2019, 13:54 by mailingli...@iivq.net:

> In my environment, some people are adding old ("razed" railways to 
> openstreetmak, of which no trace is visible in the field.
>
This is undesirable, OSM is not a place to map historic data. When I encounter 
such mismapped
objects I remove them.
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Re: [Talk-transit] Old railways

[Tijmen Stam]

On 13-05-19 01:33, Mike N wrote:

On 5/12/2019 1:45 PM, Tijmen Stam wrote:
Btw, do you know of a way to copy data from one layer in JOSM to 
another, while keeping it at the exact same position?


Edit / Paste at Source Position (CTRL+ALT+V).


Thank you (and John Whelan)


I still wish it was easier to migrate objects to Open Historical Map.


The method I used yesterday was
1. download from OSM (or Overpass Turbo) into JOSM
2. Copy wanted data to new layer
3. edit (if necessary)
4. change api in JOSM
5. upload

  While I also don't think that Razed railways without a trace no longer 
belong in OSM, there's a bit of tradition that allowed them here.  Since 
they don't render on the default OSM site, I leave the old tracks for now.


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Re: [Talk-transit] Old railways

[john whelan]

>Btw, do you know of a way to copy data from one layer in JOSM to
another, while keeping it at the exact same position?


Create a new layer down load a tiny area with nothing in it works fine.

Select what you want to copy and copy to new layer.

Cheerio John

On Sun, May 12, 2019, 1:46 PM Tijmen Stam,  wrote:

> On 12-05-19 17:48, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
> > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 07:54, Tijmen Stam  wrote:
> >> In my environment, some people are adding old ("razed" railways to
> >> openstreetmak, of which no trace is visible in the field.
> >> It concerns both old railways which have been gone since 1933, e.g.
> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/592259029 (Note that this piece still
> >> is somewhat visible, as it is now a road and partially a cycle path).
> >
> > Hi Tijmen,
> >
> > The "canonical" answer is that things that no longer exist in real
> > life and there is no trace of them do not belong in OpenStreetMap.
> >
> > How strict you want to interpret this probably depends more on local
> > community consensus than on talk-transit guidance.
> >
> > Tagging of removed railways that are now paths _in the same alignment_
> > seems relatively uncontroversial. https://osm.org/way/583243933 is an
> > example local to me.
>
> Yeah, I hold that same thing too. Basically path and track I still
> double-tag as railway=abandoned, but when it becomes a proper highway, I
> generally don't.
> I do tag razed when most of a longer railway is still (very) visible in
> the field, but short sections are no longer, as e.g. they have become a
> highway through/around a village. E.g.
>  or
>  (that latter should've
> been razed, not abandoned)
>
> > Your example of way 592259029 seems to me a bit
> > ambitious in that it traces alignment where it is no longer evident,
> > such as over houses, and https://osm.org/way/592259043 is a bridge
> > that no longer exists... I would not include this in OSM.
>
> >> Another example is a tram line in Amsterdam that has been gone for a
> >> year now , the area has
> >> been completely redeveloped, no trace of the old tram tracks remains.
> >
> > IMO this should not be in OSM.
>
> Then we think alike.
>
> >> I only recently found out about openrailwaymap, but I can't find much
> >> information about it. It seems it gets its data from the OSM database.
> >>
> >> Is there a way to store "razed" railways somewhere else, so they will
> >> show up on openrailwaymap but not on OSM (they are rendered on some
> >> renderers, e.g. OSMAND)
> >
> > There does exist
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Historical_Map which is a
> > separate database intended for things that used to exist but don't
> > anymore.
> >
> > Although this would be technically and legally possible, I doubt that
> > OpenRailwayMap currently integrates data from OHM.
>
> Thank you so much!
>
> To not "lose" the hard work of others, I have copied (part of) the
> abandoned/razed railways from OSM to OHM, added it with data from
> Wikipedia. Now I have to remove the data from OSM, but that's quite some
> work so I will do that later.
>
> <
> http://www.openhistoricalmap.org/?edit_help=1#map=16/52.7820/4.8315=H
> >
>
> Thanks for that!
>
> Btw, do you know of a way to copy data from one layer in JOSM to
> another, while keeping it at the exact same position?
>
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Re: [Talk-transit] Old railways

[Mike N]

On 5/12/2019 1:45 PM, Tijmen Stam wrote:
Btw, do you know of a way to copy data from one layer in JOSM to 
another, while keeping it at the exact same position?


Edit / Paste at Source Position (CTRL+ALT+V).

I still wish it was easier to migrate objects to Open Historical Map.

 While I also don't think that Razed railways without a trace no longer 
belong in OSM, there's a bit of tradition that allowed them here.  Since 
they don't render on the default OSM site, I leave the old tracks for now.


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Re: [Talk-transit] Old railways

[Tijmen Stam]

On 12-05-19 17:48, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:

On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 07:54, Tijmen Stam  wrote:

In my environment, some people are adding old ("razed" railways to
openstreetmak, of which no trace is visible in the field.
It concerns both old railways which have been gone since 1933, e.g.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/592259029 (Note that this piece still
is somewhat visible, as it is now a road and partially a cycle path).


Hi Tijmen,

The "canonical" answer is that things that no longer exist in real
life and there is no trace of them do not belong in OpenStreetMap.

How strict you want to interpret this probably depends more on local
community consensus than on talk-transit guidance.

Tagging of removed railways that are now paths _in the same alignment_
seems relatively uncontroversial. https://osm.org/way/583243933 is an
example local to me.


Yeah, I hold that same thing too. Basically path and track I still 
double-tag as railway=abandoned, but when it becomes a proper highway, I 
generally don't.
I do tag razed when most of a longer railway is still (very) visible in 
the field, but short sections are no longer, as e.g. they have become a 
highway through/around a village. E.g. 
 or 
 (that latter should've 
been razed, not abandoned)



Your example of way 592259029 seems to me a bit
ambitious in that it traces alignment where it is no longer evident,
such as over houses, and https://osm.org/way/592259043 is a bridge
that no longer exists... I would not include this in OSM.



Another example is a tram line in Amsterdam that has been gone for a
year now , the area has
been completely redeveloped, no trace of the old tram tracks remains.


IMO this should not be in OSM.


Then we think alike.


I only recently found out about openrailwaymap, but I can't find much
information about it. It seems it gets its data from the OSM database.

Is there a way to store "razed" railways somewhere else, so they will
show up on openrailwaymap but not on OSM (they are rendered on some
renderers, e.g. OSMAND)


There does exist
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Historical_Map which is a
separate database intended for things that used to exist but don't
anymore.

Although this would be technically and legally possible, I doubt that
OpenRailwayMap currently integrates data from OHM.


Thank you so much!

To not "lose" the hard work of others, I have copied (part of) the 
abandoned/razed railways from OSM to OHM, added it with data from 
Wikipedia. Now I have to remove the data from OSM, but that's quite some 
work so I will do that later.




Thanks for that!

Btw, do you know of a way to copy data from one layer in JOSM to 
another, while keeping it at the exact same position?


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Re: [Talk-transit] Old railways

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 07:54, Tijmen Stam  wrote:
> In my environment, some people are adding old ("razed" railways to
> openstreetmak, of which no trace is visible in the field.
> It concerns both old railways which have been gone since 1933, e.g.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/592259029 (Note that this piece still
> is somewhat visible, as it is now a road and partially a cycle path).

Hi Tijmen,

The "canonical" answer is that things that no longer exist in real
life and there is no trace of them do not belong in OpenStreetMap.

How strict you want to interpret this probably depends more on local
community consensus than on talk-transit guidance.

Tagging of removed railways that are now paths _in the same alignment_
seems relatively uncontroversial. https://osm.org/way/583243933 is an
example local to me. Your example of way 592259029 seems to me a bit
ambitious in that it traces alignment where it is no longer evident,
such as over houses, and https://osm.org/way/592259043 is a bridge
that no longer exists... I would not include this in OSM.

> Another example is a tram line in Amsterdam that has been gone for a
> year now , the area has
> been completely redeveloped, no trace of the old tram tracks remains.

IMO this should not be in OSM.

> I only recently found out about openrailwaymap, but I can't find much
> information about it. It seems it gets its data from the OSM database.
>
> Is there a way to store "razed" railways somewhere else, so they will
> show up on openrailwaymap but not on OSM (they are rendered on some
> renderers, e.g. OSMAND)

There does exist
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Historical_Map which is a
separate database intended for things that used to exist but don't
anymore.

Although this would be technically and legally possible, I doubt that
OpenRailwayMap currently integrates data from OHM.

IMHO if they want to show historic railways they should also include
OHM data, to support not having undesirable data in OSM. But I realize
it'd be quite a lot of technical work.

> Funny anecdote: OSMAND showing abandoned railways has on one occasion
> led me to a detour because I thought I saw a footpath cross a canal
> where a razed railway has a very similar rendering.

Arguably this is a bug in OsmAnd - things that are explicitly tagged
as no longer existing should probably not be rendered by a
general-purpose renderer.

However this also depends on the tagging being correct - for instance
OSM-carto renders railway=disused (there is a clear sign of a railway
but it is no longer used) but not railway=razed (no railway exists) or
railway=abandoned (tagging seems inconsistent [1] so I guess they err
on side of not showing disused things).

--Jarek

[1] P.S. I just realized 3 months ago I tagged railway=abandoned on
stretches where there is no trace of track but its past presence can
be derived from track remaining on either end of the cleared stretch.
I currently find my past decision questionable, but I imagine there
was tagging guidance somewhere that made me choose this over
railway=razed.

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[Talk-transit] Old railways

[Tijmen Stam]

Hello,

In my environment, some people are adding old ("razed" railways to 
openstreetmak, of which no trace is visible in the field.
It concerns both old railways which have been gone since 1933, e.g. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/592259029 (Note that this piece still 
is somewhat visible, as it is now a road and partially a cycle path).


Another example is a tram line in Amsterdam that has been gone for a 
year now , the area has 
been completely redeveloped, no trace of the old tram tracks remains.


Although I am a great fan of abandoned railways, IMHO such "razed" 
railways or other objects of which no trace remains, don't belong on OSM 
(although there is much discussion, see 
). 



I only recently found out about openrailwaymap, but I can't find much 
information about it. It seems it gets its data from the OSM database.


Is there a way to store "razed" railways somewhere else, so they will 
show up on openrailwaymap but not on OSM (they are rendered on some 
renderers, e.g. OSMAND)


Funny anecdote: OSMAND showing abandoned railways has on one occasion 
led me to a detour because I thought I saw a footpath cross a canal 
where a razed railway has a very similar rendering.


Tijmen / IIVQ

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