Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 6:45 AM, Andre Joost andre+jo...@nurfuerspam.de wrote: Am 29.02.2012 18:18, schrieb Paul Johnson: On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Bryce McKinlaybmckin...@gmail.com wrote: Secondly, GTFS is already a good, widely used, open format for transit schedules. Introducing a new set of tags for this stuff in OSM would be like reinventing the wheel. In many cases GTFS data is provided and kept up-to-date by the transit providers themselves. How about tags that link public transport relations to the appropriate GTFS URL instead? I agree; IIRC, GTFS data is available on the agency's website in a standard location. Could you please discuss Google Transport things on Google Groups? This is openstreetmap, not Google. GTFS is an open data format for public transport schedules. Just because it was invented by Google does not mean that it's only relevant to them. Many projects use GTFS data and have nothing to do with Google Transit. Example: opentripplanner.org Bryce ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I must admit I don't know much about getting renderers to work, but summing frequencies of all bus lines on each way seems to be enough for now. And if you draw bus routes with colours ranging from blue (rare route) to red (busy route) it should be pretty obvious where you need to go if you want to get on a bus quickly. And for lines that aren't active on all days you can add a dashed line (which is visible only if it is the only route on the road). No renderer does summing of frequencies for you, although Maperitive is getting close (it will do summing already, but only to change labels, not to change line colours/widths) ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
Dana četvrtak, 1. ožujka 2012., korisnik Tom Brownthecap...@gmail.com je napisao: Regarding your original proposal with Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30: Instead of putting the count of trips in a time period how about giving the average headway? When exact times are not provided timetables and riders often refer to how often the bus/train comes. You could represent this with strings such as T=20m T=1h T=45s, maybe even T=1m45s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency#Definitions_and_units Maybe we could use mine t10 (or h10 for trips per hour and d10 for trips per day) and 10m, 10h for time between trips. They are essentially the same thing. https://developers.google.com/transit/gtfs/reference#frequencies_fields was added to GTFS just over 5 years ago. Wow, I don't know how i missed that. Was there talk about exporting osm transit data to GTFS? I think that would make creating GTFS feeds much easier with all the stops, shapes, line names and such.. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
[Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
Hello, The problem with rendering transit lines right now is that the busy lines are rendered the same as the lines that go a few times a day. Those differences between lines should be seen right away, but we don't have that information in the database right now. I agree that the best solution would be to have the whole timetable for different transit lines, but this is often not possible and very hard to maintain. Transiki https://github.com/SteveC/transiki gave us some hope that this could be manageable, but unfortunately the project was shut down. I propose a temporary middle solution. Every bus route relation could have a tag similar to the opening_hourshttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hourstag. This way we could know if a line is only active on weekends, or if it is a night line. Or maybe it only runs in the morning and in the evening. We could upgrade this tag, and put a number of trips in each time period. This can be an estimate, a trip more or less a day is not much. It would look like this: Only ferquency: *transport_frequency*=t5 this means that a bus route has 5 trips a day. Only days: *transport_frequency*=Sa-Su this bus route only goes on weekends Only time: *transport_frequency*=00:00-04:00 Night line A little more information: *transport_frequency***=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30; Sa 08:00-22:00 t25 30 trips a day from Monday till Friday, first trip at 8 in the morning, last at 10 in the evening. Similar for Saturday. And so on. I added a t in front of the number of trips so it is easier to see, maybe it is not needed. Or maybe this could be done in a completely different way. This tag could be added in the route masterhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport#Route_masteror in the route direction/varianthttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport#Route_direction.2Fvariant. Renderers could draw the lines dashed if they are not very frequent, or black if they are night lines. Even rough public transport routers could be made using this information. What do you guys think? (Should I have put this in the wiki first?) Janko Mihelić http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Janjko ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
Personally, I think adding transit schedule data to OSM is not a good idea. Firstly, in many areas, schedules are highly variable over time, so this sort of information tends to become obsolete soon after it is added. Secondly, GTFS is already a good, widely used, open format for transit schedules. Introducing a new set of tags for this stuff in OSM would be like reinventing the wheel. In many cases GTFS data is provided and kept up-to-date by the transit providers themselves. How about tags that link public transport relations to the appropriate GTFS URL instead? If its just having a service frequency hint for renderers that is required, then I'd suggest keeping it very simple. For example, transport_frequency=frequent, transport_frequency=occasional,no_weekend_service or similar. Bryce On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, The problem with rendering transit lines right now is that the busy lines are rendered the same as the lines that go a few times a day. Those differences between lines should be seen right away, but we don't have that information in the database right now. I agree that the best solution would be to have the whole timetable for different transit lines, but this is often not possible and very hard to maintain. Transiki gave us some hope that this could be manageable, but unfortunately the project was shut down. I propose a temporary middle solution. Every bus route relation could have a tag similar to the opening_hours tag. This way we could know if a line is only active on weekends, or if it is a night line. Or maybe it only runs in the morning and in the evening. We could upgrade this tag, and put a number of trips in each time period. This can be an estimate, a trip more or less a day is not much. It would look like this: Only ferquency: transport_frequency=t5 this means that a bus route has 5 trips a day. Only days: transport_frequency=Sa-Su this bus route only goes on weekends Only time: transport_frequency=00:00-04:00 Night line A little more information: transport_frequency=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30; Sa 08:00-22:00 t25 30 trips a day from Monday till Friday, first trip at 8 in the morning, last at 10 in the evening. Similar for Saturday. And so on. I added a t in front of the number of trips so it is easier to see, maybe it is not needed. Or maybe this could be done in a completely different way. This tag could be added in the route master or in the route direction/variant. Renderers could draw the lines dashed if they are not very frequent, or black if they are night lines. Even rough public transport routers could be made using this information. What do you guys think? (Should I have put this in the wiki first?) Janko Mihelić http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Janjko ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Bryce McKinlay bmckin...@gmail.com wrote: Secondly, GTFS is already a good, widely used, open format for transit schedules. Introducing a new set of tags for this stuff in OSM would be like reinventing the wheel. In many cases GTFS data is provided and kept up-to-date by the transit providers themselves. How about tags that link public transport relations to the appropriate GTFS URL instead? I agree; IIRC, GTFS data is available on the agency's website in a standard location. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
Dana srijeda, 29. veljače 2012., korisnik Bryce McKinlaybmckin...@gmail.com je napisao: If its just having a service frequency hint for renderers that is required, then I'd suggest keeping it very simple. For example, transport_frequency=frequent, With my tag, it would be transport_frequency=t50, and if it changes to 45, it's not too bad. transport_frequency=occasional,no_weekend_service or similar. transport_frequency=Mo-Fr t10 I think its short and easy to understand, gives more precise information, but isnt very connected with the official schedule. So if the schedule changes a bit, it isn't that bad. Bryce If we only wanted to rely on official sources, we shouldn't use opening_hours either. ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] Proposal for a new transport tag
Am 29.02.2012 16:07, schrieb Janko Mihelić: Hello, The problem with rendering transit lines right now is that the busy lines are rendered the same as the lines that go a few times a day. Those differences between lines should be seen right away, but we don't have that information in the database right now. I agree that the best solution would be to have the whole timetable for different transit lines, but this is often not possible and very hard to maintain. Transikihttps://github.com/SteveC/transiki gave us some hope that this could be manageable, but unfortunately the project was shut down. I propose a temporary middle solution. Every bus route relation could have a tag similar to the opening_hourshttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hourstag. This way we could know if a line is only active on weekends, or if it is a night line. Or maybe it only runs in the morning and in the evening. We could upgrade this tag, and put a number of trips in each time period. This can be an estimate, a trip more or less a day is not much. It would look like this: Only ferquency: *transport_frequency*=t5 this means that a bus route has 5 trips a day. Only days: *transport_frequency*=Sa-Su this bus route only goes on weekends Only time: *transport_frequency*=00:00-04:00 Night line A little more information: *transport_frequency***=Mo-Fr 08:00-23:00 t30; Sa 08:00-22:00 t25 30 trips a day from Monday till Friday, first trip at 8 in the morning, last at 10 in the evening. Similar for Saturday. And so on. I added a t in front of the number of trips so it is easier to see, maybe it is not needed. Or maybe this could be done in a completely different way. Sounds interesting. For densly populated areas, it would be better to give a frequency per hour, or every xy minutes. But how should the renderer treat a service by three bus lines runnig every hour? Together they serve every 20 minutes, or arrive at the same time to give people a chance to change the bus. The renderer has to lock up every bus service on a road, and count them together. This is not a simple thing with current mapnik. Greetings, Andre Joost ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
