Re: [Talk-us] NHD data changes
On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 9:19 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: I've been looking at the NHD data from the USGS site and have noticed a few recent changes from how they were described on the wiki. 1. The viewer has changed. http://viewer.nationalmap.gov/viewer/nhd.html will bring up a map you can use to download NHD data. This viewer does not work in Chrome but does work in IE. Subregions are pre-staged downloads, the others will take some time before you can download. Subregions can be directly downloaded from ftp://nhdftp.usgs.gov/DataSets/Staged/SubRegions/PersonalGDB/HighResolution/ Most subregions are available as a new NHD 931v210 file but some are still being generated. 2. NHD data is now available only as File Geodatabases (File GDBs, .gdb) and Personal Geodatabases (Personal GDBs, .mdb). My understanding is the default builds of QuantumGIS and GDAL on Windows can open Personal GDBs. On linux gdal can be compiled with drv_mdb or the pgeo driver can be used for Personal GDBs, or the filegdb driver can be used for File GDBs. This is moderately technical. 3. The NHD attributes changed with NHD v2.1. All the old mappings of NHD FCodes to OSM tags are outdated. For rivers and streams nothing has changed but others have. I haven't found a list of the 2012 changes. The two current FCode lists I am aware of are http://nhd.usgs.gov/userGuide/Robohelpfiles/NHD_User_Guide/Feature_Catalog/H ydrography_Dataset/Complete_FCode_List.htm and http://nhd.usgs.gov/NHDv2.1_poster_3_23_2012.pdf If you are planning something where you will be checking each object's tagging this will not affect you too much, although you may encounter more objects you have to retag. If you are considering proposing any kind of NHD import where you don't check each option I suggest you wait. I am working on a translation file but it takes a fair amount of time. There are a *lot* of FCodes and I need to look at some of each in multiple areas to see the appropriate tagging. Not all FCodes appear in all areas and what seems appropriate in one area may not be for all areas. Thank you for your work on this. NHD hasn't been high on my priority list but I might actually try to use some of it around here once you get things in a working state. Toby ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: This one surprised me, was pretty sure that the US didn't have real mini roundabouts, but I just spotted one in Burien, WA. http://g.co/maps/afh8m I've mapped dozens of these as miniroundabouts in the midwest: http://g.co/maps/w7mnr ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: I've mapped dozens of these as miniroundabouts in the midwest: http://g.co/maps/w7mnr That's not a mini, though, since you can't just drive over the island. Here's an eponymous example of a mini roundabout: http://goo.gl/6Qswf ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On 5/7/2012 10:03 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: Same here. I'm ignoring this wiki-fiddling: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundaboutdiff=747981oldid=689543 Both edits you mention seem to agree that the island is traversable in a mini roundabout. It had said usually does not have a physical island. This was changed to an absolute. And actually this was the start of it: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundaboutdiff=605002oldid=515047 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On 5/7/2012 11:02 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: On May 7, 2012 7:06 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com mailto:nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/7/2012 9:59 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 6:51 AM, Ian Deesian.d...@gmail.com mailto:ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: I've mapped dozens of these as miniroundabouts in the midwest: http://g.co/maps/w7mnr That's not a mini, though, since you can't just drive over the island. And highway=motorways aren't restricted to motorized traffic only, and not all highway=trunk are trunk roads (even in the UK). That doesn't seem to address the fact that mini roundabouts are mini in terms of height, not diameter. It vaults right over any supposed definition of mini-roundabout. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On 5/7/2012 12:41 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: It vaults right over any supposed definition of mini-roundabout. I suppose if you ignored the whole traversability or vertical clearance requirements the wiki's had since the tag was created in the wiki, sure. I ignore that in favor of how the tag actually gets used in the data. A couple watchdogs can keep the wiki saying one thing, but they can't keep usage from diverging. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/7/2012 12:41 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: It vaults right over any supposed definition of mini-roundabout. I suppose if you ignored the whole traversability or vertical clearance requirements the wiki's had since the tag was created in the wiki, sure. I ignore that in favor of how the tag actually gets used in the data. A couple watchdogs can keep the wiki saying one thing, but they can't keep usage from diverging. Still, the diverging use overlaps improperly with the actual roundabout correctly as a ring using junction=roundabout. ;o) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On 5/7/2012 1:02 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Still, the diverging use overlaps improperly with the actual roundabout correctly as a ring using junction=roundabout. ;o) You're assuming that each real-world situation has only one correct way of mapping. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/7/2012 1:02 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Still, the diverging use overlaps improperly with the actual roundabout correctly as a ring using junction=roundabout. ;o) You're assuming that each real-world situation has only one correct way of mapping. So, you're suggesting we stop mapping nontraversable, hard medians? Because that's what it sounds like. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On 5/7/2012 1:16 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/7/2012 1:02 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Still, the diverging use overlaps improperly with the actual roundabout correctly as a ring using junction=roundabout. ;o) You're assuming that each real-world situation has only one correct way of mapping. So, you're suggesting we stop mapping nontraversable, hard medians? Because that's what it sounds like. Get your ears checked. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
So, you're suggesting we stop mapping nontraversable, hard medians? Because that's what it sounds like. Get your ears checked. Not necessary, I'm not the one suggesting node tagging is a substitute for mapping a nontraversible median. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
Paul, It looks like a manhole cover (albeit a rather nice one). Are you sure it's a miniroundabout? :-) Charlotte At 06:46 AM 5/7/2012, you wrote: This one surprised me, was pretty sure that the US didn't have real mini roundabouts, but I just spotted one in Burien, WA. http://g.co/maps/afh8m ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady The Four Internet Freedoms Freedom to visit any site on the Internet Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would affect the first three freedoms. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
So this is not/should not be a mini_roundabout? It seems a little silly to call it anything else, since the city just dug a hole in the center of the existing intersection, built a circular curb, and planted a tree: http://g.co/maps/e2gsv What about this one? Also a full on roundabout? http://g.co/maps/d6n74 This looks more like a roundabout to me: http://g.co/maps/hnbp9 -Nathan On 5/7/2012 8:46 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: This one surprised me, was pretty sure that the US didn't have real mini roundabouts, but I just spotted one in Burien, WA. http://g.co/maps/afh8m ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Nathan Mills nat...@nwacg.net wrote: So this is not/should not be a mini_roundabout? It seems a little silly to call it anything else, since the city just dug a hole in the center of the existing intersection, built a circular curb, and planted a tree: http://g.co/maps/e2gsv What about this one? Also a full on roundabout? http://g.co/maps/d6n74 This looks more like a roundabout to me: http://g.co/maps/hnbp9 All three are roundabouts, yes. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On 5/7/2012 4:28 PM, Nathan Mills wrote: So this is not/should not be a mini_roundabout? It seems a little silly to call it anything else, since the city just dug a hole in the center of the existing intersection, built a circular curb, and planted a tree: http://g.co/maps/e2gsv Even sillier: according to the wiki, http://jemappellewendyi.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/imagen/portable-roundabout/ must be mapped as a circular way. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On 5/7/2012 3:30 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Nathan Millsnat...@nwacg.net wrote: http://g.co/maps/hnbp9 All three are roundabouts, yes. How are you going to properly map the first one? There is no channelization or anything that makes the intersection circular. The curbs at the four corners have the typical intersection radius. It's a square with a circle in the middle. It's also designed for fire trucks to roll over the edges, since they can't otherwise fit. (also the one in the second link, but it at least pretends to be a ring of driving surface around a central point) -Nathan ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Nathan Mills nat...@nwacg.net wrote: On 5/7/2012 3:30 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Nathan Millsnat...@nwacg.net wrote: http://g.co/maps/hnbp9 All three are roundabouts, yes. How are you going to properly map the first one? There is no channelization or anything that makes the intersection circular. The curbs at the four corners have the typical intersection radius. It's a square with a circle in the middle. It's also designed for fire trucks to roll over the edges, since they can't otherwise fit. (also the one in the second link, but it at least pretends to be a ring of driving surface around a central point) Draw circle at median distance between corner curbs and outside edge of central apron on the median. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Nathan Mills nat...@nwacg.net wrote: So this is not/should not be a mini_roundabout? It seems a little silly to call it anything else, since the city just dug a hole in the center of the existing intersection, built a circular curb, and planted a tree: http://g.co/maps/e2gsv It's a normal roundabout. Tough normally a roundabout is signed. without any lane markings, no yield signs or other signs to tell how to pass trough one could argue it's entirely legal to take a direct left turn instead going around 270 degree. Then it's not more than a traffic calming structure What about this one? Also a full on roundabout? http://g.co/maps/d6n74 same as above This looks more like a roundabout to me: http://g.co/maps/hnbp9 yes definitely. -Nathan On 5/7/2012 8:46 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: This one surprised me, was pretty sure that the US didn't have real mini roundabouts, but I just spotted one in Burien, WA. http://g.co/maps/afh8m __**_ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-ushttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us __**_ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-ushttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
The problem seems to be that mappers needed a tag for a small roundabout on a node. Since all that was available was mini_roundabout, that's what we used. Had there been another tag, e.g. highway=roundabout, we wouldn't have this discussion. But mini_roundabout is now in use for a large number of miniature roundabouts that may not be strictly mini-roundabouts. There's been a similar case recently with surface=cobblestone apparently not being real cobblestone but something called 'sett'. Someone tried to change the tag definitions, but it was way too late. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
I just downloaded all highway=mini_roundabout nodes and just browsed around a bit comparing the nodes to Bing imagery. There are a *lot* of turning circles tagged as mini roundabouts. And not just in North America. Some of them are turning circles with an island in the middle but many of them are straight up turning circles. But beyond that obvious misuse, outside of the UK this tag is used on a lot of roundabouts with obvious islands. If the wiki were to reflect reality, it would probably say something about the size of the intersection itself. People (including me) are using this tag to indicate intersections where the road surface and corners of the intersection have not been expanded to allow for circular traffic but rather, a chunk of concrete which happens to be circular has been dropped in the middle of the intersection to slow cars down. In my city we have several intersections I have tagged as mini roundabouts. They are all on residential side streets that run parallel to major roads and I believe their primary purpose is to annoy drivers into avoiding the side streets even if the main roads are busy. If anyone wants to take a look for themselves, here is the file. It is only 8.5 MB so JOSM should be able to handle it without problems: http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/mini_roundabouts.osm Toby On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: The first two would unquestionably be tagged with highway=mini_roundabout up here. From: Nathan Mills [mailto:nat...@nwacg.net] Subject: Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted So this is not/should not be a mini_roundabout? It seems a little silly to call it anything else, since the city just dug a hole in the center of the existing intersection, built a circular curb, and planted a tree: http://g.co/maps/e2gsv What about this one? Also a full on roundabout? http://g.co/maps/d6n74 This looks more like a roundabout to me: http://g.co/maps/hnbp9 -Nathan On 5/7/2012 8:46 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: This one surprised me, was pretty sure that the US didn't have real mini roundabouts, but I just spotted one in Burien, WA. http://g.co/maps/afh8m ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] First bona fide mini-roundabout spotted
On 7 May 2012 22:28, Nathan Mills nat...@nwacg.net wrote: So this is not/should not be a mini_roundabout? It seems a little silly to call it anything else, since the city just dug a hole in the center of the existing intersection, built a circular curb, and planted a tree: http://g.co/maps/e2gsv What about this one? Also a full on roundabout? http://g.co/maps/d6n74 These two don't give priority to the vehicles going round so they're not roundabouts going by the wiki definition. This is one in Berkeley that I have previously tagged mini_roundabout: http://g.co/maps/5uc9t (using the size criteria) but from Google it looks like there are stop signs only from Mathews St even though there are roundabout symbols on the island. So should this be redrawn as a circle, with highway=stop nodes from N/S only? Cheers ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
