Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Preliminary Import/Organized Mapping Effort Idea

[Clifford Snow]

I asked the Jamestown S'Klallam Tribe, near Sequim, WA for updated
boundaries. The state boundaries did not match what was on the tribes
website. They provided me with an update - the same one they just sent the
Census Bureau. With the 2020 census my guess is that TIGER might have some
good boundaries. (I didn't ask, but found it interesting that Census came
directly to the tribe instead of BIA.)

Jamestown S'Klallam brings up the question of rendering off reservation
trust lands. I asked Jamestown, they recommended rendering it differently.
For those not on Slack, I asked the same question there - should we create
a rendering for off reservation trust lands? This tribe is a good example
of why we might want to. They have substantially more off reservation lands
than reservation lands. The tribe closest to me (Swinomish) has one small
lot of off reservation land, but a large reservation. They could probably
care less. (The lot is located in downtown La Conner - a small tourist town
nearby. It's not in OSM. )

I'd like others opinion of rendering. Washington maybe totally different
than the rest of the country.

Happy New Years All,
Clifford

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 5:22 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 7:18 PM Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
>> I've reached out to a couple of the nearby reservations, one with a small
>> parcel of off reservation land trust, the other with only a small
>> reservation but a very large off reservation land trust. I don't expect
>> answers until possibly after the new year. Unlike Oklahoma, Washington
>> reservations are pretty straight forward. The Yakama Nation has a large
>> disputed area but I'm inclined to show it as reservation land. I haven't
>> updated it yet because the borders are tied up in multiple relations that
>> need undoing.
>>
>
> Well, that's mostly fortunate.  The disputed area and definitely Fort
> Simcoe would be potentially sore spots to look out for and look into more
> if reasonable.
>


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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Preliminary Import/Organized Mapping Effort Idea

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 7:18 PM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> I've reached out to a couple of the nearby reservations, one with a small
> parcel of off reservation land trust, the other with only a small
> reservation but a very large off reservation land trust. I don't expect
> answers until possibly after the new year. Unlike Oklahoma, Washington
> reservations are pretty straight forward. The Yakama Nation has a large
> disputed area but I'm inclined to show it as reservation land. I haven't
> updated it yet because the borders are tied up in multiple relations that
> need undoing.
>

Well, that's mostly fortunate.  The disputed area and definitely Fort
Simcoe would be potentially sore spots to look out for and look into more
if reasonable.
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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Preliminary Import/Organized Mapping Effort Idea

[Paul Johnson]

(Conversational quoting, please)

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 6:42 PM David Bartecchi 
wrote:

> All of these concerns must be weighed against the fact that the current
> absence of Native lands in OSM only contributes to the erasure Native
> Americans and their lands from the American collective conscience.
>

Agreed.

I did think ahead on this enough to use the protected lands key when
tagging the areas I have mapped so far, as this is probably the most
neutral method available right now that doesn't break the renderers.  Not
good enough for government work (we'd need a lot more research into treaty
status and way more admin values to make those value judgements as
administrative areas), but good enough to at least be a starting point for
well established areas.

My more immediate concern than "not erasing people" is "not assigning areas
to people in ways that are ambiguous, irrelevant or potentially perceived
as hostile".  I'm not the person to take the lead on navigating that one.
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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Preliminary Import/Organized Mapping Effort Idea

[Clifford Snow]

I've reached out to a couple of the nearby reservations, one with a small
parcel of off reservation land trust, the other with only a small
reservation but a very large off reservation land trust. I don't expect
answers until possibly after the new year. Unlike Oklahoma, Washington
reservations are pretty straight forward. The Yakama Nation has a large
disputed area but I'm inclined to show it as reservation land. I haven't
updated it yet because the borders are tied up in multiple relations that
need undoing.

Best,
Clifford

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 4:42 PM David Bartecchi 
wrote:

> All of these concerns must be weighed against the fact that the current
> absence of Native lands in OSM only contributes to the erasure Native
> Americans and their lands from the American collective conscience.
>
> Dave
>
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 5:27 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> Content warning: Aboriginal abuse mention
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 2:08 PM Clifford Snow 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I do have Washington State tribal lands available [1]  as a background
>>> layer for JOSM. There is also a vector tile layer [2] of the same
>>> background available for iD users.
>>>
>>> The data contains the name in english and the land type of Disputed
>>> Area, Off-Reservation Trust Land, Reservation, and Tribal Headquarters.
>>> Only 4 disputed areas but 60 Off-Reservation areas. Some people include
>>> Off-Reservation in tribal lands while others do not. My sense is that they
>>> should be tagged as boundary=aboriginal_lands. I'd like to hear the opinion
>>> of the group.
>>>
>>
>> The TLDR: I, personally, have not been including trust lands in Oklahoma,
>> for pragmatic reasons.  The situation is complicated, painful to many, and
>> politically loaded on a level where I don't think OSM should sort out trust
>> lands yet.
>>
>> I'm aware of several dozen trust exclaves, but they all fall into one of
>> three categories.
>>
>>1. The exclave is presently unclaimed or claimed but no longer
>>occupied by multiple tribes, and thus the status is ambiguous other than
>>it's within BIA jurisdiction.  Most Oklahoma exclaves fall into this
>>category, and it's really complicated.
>>2. The exclave is claimed by one tribe but it's ability to establish
>>a presence and primary jurisdiction is in question.  There's an exclave in
>>Boise, OK where one of the tribes (not sure which, but pretty sure not
>>mine) presently has plans to open a travel center and casino, however, 
>> this
>>exclave is hundreds of kilometers from their jurisdictional area and
>>whether or not they can even claim the exclave is nebulous.  It's
>>effectively tribal terra nullius.
>>3. The Chilocco Indian Residential School.  This one gets super
>>touchy.  The school, which closed in 1980, has sat abandoned and uncared
>>for since, yet can't be torn down without considerable red tape since the
>>site is on the National Historic Register.  The school is currently
>>assigned to five additional tribes in the immediate region, and they
>>cooperatively ran a rehabilitation center for the school's victims at the
>>site in the 1990s and 2000s, but the rehab facility has also sat abandoned
>>since at least 2011 with no plans for the site, and the whole enclave
>>currently is off limits to everyone, very intermittently used as a 
>> training
>>ground for federal police agencies, further rubbing sandpaper into 
>> unhealed
>>wounds for many.  No surprise, the original school that operated for 98
>>years is widely criticized for most of its existence, and especially in 
>> its
>>final decade of operation, for being little more than a concentration camp
>>for indian children as part of the US's plan for Americanization of
>>indians. As far as I can tell, abuse at the school was institutionalized,
>>frequent and persistent enough it's hard not to imagine it wasn't by
>>design.  It might as well be scorched earth.
>>
>> Add this into the fact that not all of Oklahoma's tribes (or even the
>> relevant tribes that potentially have claim to these parcels) get along
>> with each other.  Add that Governor Stitt has been talking about cancelling
>> state compacts with the tribes this month, and we're actually seeing nearly
>> unprecedented intertribal unity and cooperation right now (weird how a
>> common threat does that).
>>
>> All that said, my read on the situation?  Trying to sort out the trust
>> lands in Oklahoma is politically shaky at best for OSM, and it wouldn't
>> surprise me if similar situations are present in other states.  Offhand,
>> Pennsylvania, Oregon and Kansas all have federal indian schools presently
>> in operation (Army War College in Carlisle, Chemawa in Salem, and Haskell
>> Indian College in Haskell respectively).  Washington State had one as well
>> (Fort Simcoe), and presently has a far darker and ongoing relations with
>> the tribes in that state most 

Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Preliminary Import/Organized Mapping Effort Idea

[Paul Johnson]

Content warning: Aboriginal abuse mention

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 2:08 PM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> I do have Washington State tribal lands available [1]  as a background
> layer for JOSM. There is also a vector tile layer [2] of the same
> background available for iD users.
>
> The data contains the name in english and the land type of Disputed Area,
> Off-Reservation Trust Land, Reservation, and Tribal Headquarters. Only 4
> disputed areas but 60 Off-Reservation areas. Some people include
> Off-Reservation in tribal lands while others do not. My sense is that they
> should be tagged as boundary=aboriginal_lands. I'd like to hear the opinion
> of the group.
>

The TLDR: I, personally, have not been including trust lands in Oklahoma,
for pragmatic reasons.  The situation is complicated, painful to many, and
politically loaded on a level where I don't think OSM should sort out trust
lands yet.

I'm aware of several dozen trust exclaves, but they all fall into one of
three categories.

   1. The exclave is presently unclaimed or claimed but no longer occupied
   by multiple tribes, and thus the status is ambiguous other than it's within
   BIA jurisdiction.  Most Oklahoma exclaves fall into this category, and it's
   really complicated.
   2. The exclave is claimed by one tribe but it's ability to establish a
   presence and primary jurisdiction is in question.  There's an exclave in
   Boise, OK where one of the tribes (not sure which, but pretty sure not
   mine) presently has plans to open a travel center and casino, however, this
   exclave is hundreds of kilometers from their jurisdictional area and
   whether or not they can even claim the exclave is nebulous.  It's
   effectively tribal terra nullius.
   3. The Chilocco Indian Residential School.  This one gets super touchy.
   The school, which closed in 1980, has sat abandoned and uncared for since,
   yet can't be torn down without considerable red tape since the site is on
   the National Historic Register.  The school is currently assigned to five
   additional tribes in the immediate region, and they cooperatively ran a
   rehabilitation center for the school's victims at the site in the 1990s and
   2000s, but the rehab facility has also sat abandoned since at least 2011
   with no plans for the site, and the whole enclave currently is off limits
   to everyone, very intermittently used as a training ground for federal
   police agencies, further rubbing sandpaper into unhealed wounds for many.
   No surprise, the original school that operated for 98 years is widely
   criticized for most of its existence, and especially in its final decade of
   operation, for being little more than a concentration camp for indian
   children as part of the US's plan for Americanization of indians. As far as
   I can tell, abuse at the school was institutionalized, frequent and
   persistent enough it's hard not to imagine it wasn't by design.  It might
   as well be scorched earth.

Add this into the fact that not all of Oklahoma's tribes (or even the
relevant tribes that potentially have claim to these parcels) get along
with each other.  Add that Governor Stitt has been talking about cancelling
state compacts with the tribes this month, and we're actually seeing nearly
unprecedented intertribal unity and cooperation right now (weird how a
common threat does that).

All that said, my read on the situation?  Trying to sort out the trust
lands in Oklahoma is politically shaky at best for OSM, and it wouldn't
surprise me if similar situations are present in other states.  Offhand,
Pennsylvania, Oregon and Kansas all have federal indian schools presently
in operation (Army War College in Carlisle, Chemawa in Salem, and Haskell
Indian College in Haskell respectively).  Washington State had one as well
(Fort Simcoe), and presently has a far darker and ongoing relations with
the tribes in that state most readily comparable Canada's Highway of Tears,
but more widespread.
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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Preliminary Import/Organized Mapping Effort Idea

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 3:03 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

> > I've avoided BIA because their data doesn't seem accurate
> We have gotten some additional feedback off list also suggesting that the
> BIA data may not be as accurate as some other sources.  Perhaps we should
> create a wiki page listing every reservation, its boundary status in OSM,
> and the known sources of data.  Mappers can then "sign up" to work on
> individual reservation boundaries (by adding their name to the wiki page),
> manually comparing the various sources, researching the most correct
> representation, and of course editing OSM to reflect their findings
> just thinking out loud here.--
>

I'm feeling this a lot more than the MapRoulette idea.  Especially if we
can get local participants involved.
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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Preliminary Import/Organized Mapping Effort Idea

[Mike Thompson]

Clifford,

Thanks for your feedback.

> I've avoided BIA because their data doesn't seem accurate
We have gotten some additional feedback off list also suggesting that the
BIA data may not be as accurate as some other sources.  Perhaps we should
create a wiki page listing every reservation, its boundary status in OSM,
and the known sources of data.  Mappers can then "sign up" to work on
individual reservation boundaries (by adding their name to the wiki page),
manually comparing the various sources, researching the most correct
representation, and of course editing OSM to reflect their findings
just thinking out loud here.

Mike

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 10:10 AM Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> Mike,
> Thanks to you, David and Paul for taking the initiative to mapping Natiive
> American Reservations. On and off for the last few years I've been
> attempting to reservations mapped in Washington State. My first choice for
> boundary information has always been from the reservation then the state.
> I've avoided BIA because their data doesn't seem accurate, at least at the
> time when I first started adding reservations. I look forward to seeing how
> it compares to the boundaries I added.
>
> I especially applaud your desire to involve Native American youth in the
> project. I have struggled to make any headway getting the tribes involved.
> Related to that I've been asking people I know that work for the tribes
> about adding features in their native language. A number of the tribes
> around me are working hard to ensure their languages not only survives but
> flourishes. I'm hoping with my connections I can partner with the tribe get
> them to actively contribute to OSM using their native language. It is
> something you might also consider doing.
>
> Let me know how I can help,
> Clifford
>
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 4:35 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:
>
>>
>> Village Earth's Native Land Advocacy Project[1], David Bartecchi[2], Paul
>> Johnson[3], and I[4] are considering an organized effort to improve the
>> boundaries of Native American Reservations in the US.  We have studied the
>> import guidelines on the wiki and will follow those, however, we first
>> wanted to see:
>>
>> 1) If there was any fundamental objection to this idea before even the
>> details are spelled out
>>
>> 2) If anyone is already working on this issue.
>>
>> 3) If anyone would like to join us.
>>
>>
>> We are thinking that our general approach will be:
>>
>> 1) Use data from this source:
>> https://biamaps.doi.gov/dataDownload/index.htmlIt has a compatible
>> license, but will verify and document as part of this process.
>>
>> 2) Somehow allow mappers to "check out" a particular reservation's
>> boundary.  Exact mechanism is TBD.
>>
>> 3) A human mapper will examine each boundary individually
>>
>> 4) Where OSM does not have a corresponding reservation boundary, the
>> mapper will import the boundary into OSM (not sure of the exact mechanics
>> at this time).  If the boundary needs to participate in a boundary
>> relation, that will be handled here. Tag mapping is TBD at this point.
>> Any conflicts with existing OSM features will be addressed in this step.
>>
>> 5) Where OSM has a boundary and it does not match the above source, and
>> it has not been edited by a human mapper, proceed as in 4 above, except
>> only replace geometry and preserve the history of the existing OSM
>> features.
>>
>> 6) Where OSM has a boundary and it does not match our source, but it has
>> been edited by a human mapper, use additional sources, including tribal
>> sources, and county sources, to determine the true boundary and make
>> necessary edits in OSM.  Deference will be given to the edits made by local
>> mappers.
>>
>> To be determined:
>> We are aware of some cases where different government bodies (e.g.
>> Federal Government vs. a state government) dispute the extent of a
>> reservation.
>>
>> Long term we would like to involve Native Americans, particularly youth
>> living on reservations, in adding additional details to OSM about
>> reservations, such as street names, amenities, etc., but we don't envision
>> this as part of this import/organized effort process.
>>
>> We look forward to your initial feedback on this preliminary concept.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> [1] Village Earth is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization that has worked
>> in Indian Country for over 20 years and works closely with the Indian Land
>> Tenure Foundation
>> [2] David works for Village Earth
>> [3] Most people on this list are probably familiar with Paul, a long time
>> contributor to OSM
>> [4] My OSM user name is tekim, I have been mapping in OSM since 2009.
>> ___
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>>
>
>
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[Talk-us] [Imports] Preliminary Import/Organized Mapping Effort Idea

[Oisin Herriott (Insight Global Inc) via Talk-us]

Hi all,

Looking to get more people/groups involved in OSM is always a challenge. One 
place I might start would be to reach out to those mappers who have last edited 
the current boundaries and ask them their thoughts on this project. If you are 
using JOSM editor you can use ‘Ctrl + h’ to find the history of an object and 
reach out to the previous editor of that feature via OSM.

The Openstreetmap Contributors map tool is 
also a way to see who is very active in an area, and could provide more local 
mappers of various experience that you could reach out to individually to for 
their input on local project proposals to get the community involved.

This looks like a great project- Best of luck!

Oisin

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports] Preliminary Import/Organized Mapping Effort Idea

[Clifford Snow]

Mike,
Thanks to you, David and Paul for taking the initiative to mapping Natiive
American Reservations. On and off for the last few years I've been
attempting to reservations mapped in Washington State. My first choice for
boundary information has always been from the reservation then the state.
I've avoided BIA because their data doesn't seem accurate, at least at the
time when I first started adding reservations. I look forward to seeing how
it compares to the boundaries I added.

I especially applaud your desire to involve Native American youth in the
project. I have struggled to make any headway getting the tribes involved.
Related to that I've been asking people I know that work for the tribes
about adding features in their native language. A number of the tribes
around me are working hard to ensure their languages not only survives but
flourishes. I'm hoping with my connections I can partner with the tribe get
them to actively contribute to OSM using their native language. It is
something you might also consider doing.

Let me know how I can help,
Clifford

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 4:35 PM Mike Thompson  wrote:

>
> Village Earth's Native Land Advocacy Project[1], David Bartecchi[2], Paul
> Johnson[3], and I[4] are considering an organized effort to improve the
> boundaries of Native American Reservations in the US.  We have studied the
> import guidelines on the wiki and will follow those, however, we first
> wanted to see:
>
> 1) If there was any fundamental objection to this idea before even the
> details are spelled out
>
> 2) If anyone is already working on this issue.
>
> 3) If anyone would like to join us.
>
>
> We are thinking that our general approach will be:
>
> 1) Use data from this source:
> https://biamaps.doi.gov/dataDownload/index.htmlIt has a compatible
> license, but will verify and document as part of this process.
>
> 2) Somehow allow mappers to "check out" a particular reservation's
> boundary.  Exact mechanism is TBD.
>
> 3) A human mapper will examine each boundary individually
>
> 4) Where OSM does not have a corresponding reservation boundary, the
> mapper will import the boundary into OSM (not sure of the exact mechanics
> at this time).  If the boundary needs to participate in a boundary
> relation, that will be handled here. Tag mapping is TBD at this point.
> Any conflicts with existing OSM features will be addressed in this step.
>
> 5) Where OSM has a boundary and it does not match the above source, and it
> has not been edited by a human mapper, proceed as in 4 above, except only
> replace geometry and preserve the history of the existing OSM features.
>
> 6) Where OSM has a boundary and it does not match our source, but it has
> been edited by a human mapper, use additional sources, including tribal
> sources, and county sources, to determine the true boundary and make
> necessary edits in OSM.  Deference will be given to the edits made by local
> mappers.
>
> To be determined:
> We are aware of some cases where different government bodies (e.g. Federal
> Government vs. a state government) dispute the extent of a reservation.
>
> Long term we would like to involve Native Americans, particularly youth
> living on reservations, in adding additional details to OSM about
> reservations, such as street names, amenities, etc., but we don't envision
> this as part of this import/organized effort process.
>
> We look forward to your initial feedback on this preliminary concept.
>
> Mike
>
>
> [1] Village Earth is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization that has worked in
> Indian Country for over 20 years and works closely with the Indian Land
> Tenure Foundation
> [2] David works for Village Earth
> [3] Most people on this list are probably familiar with Paul, a long time
> contributor to OSM
> [4] My OSM user name is tekim, I have been mapping in OSM since 2009.
> ___
> Imports mailing list
> impo...@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports
>


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