Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Bill Ricker]

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 2:21 PM Kevin Broderick 
wrote:

> However, that assumes that you can trust the news to be accurate,
>

Always a questionable assumption -- whenever you know the facts behind a
story, you see what they get wrong.

> and the distinction between "closed in winter" and "not maintained for
> winter travel" is not one I expect the news media to get right. The article
> I saw quoted the driver has having seen a "Not maintained for winter
> travel" sign and continuing because he didn't think that implied a closure
> (which is true, even if it may be a poor choice in a minivan).
>

At this point i wouldn't trust the driver's statements even without a
reporter re-writing them.

I would want to see, or see a photo of, the sign before I personally
touched that road and it's gate nodes.

(Is there a NH list where that discussion should move? My question here is
what tags are appropriate for the several possibilities.)

Given that it is a snowmachine trail, "closed" seems more likely
>

That the news reports the driver was cited (given a ticket/summons) for
something like driving a car on road closed to cars does indicate that the
cops consider it closed, whatever the sign actually says.

> (and it would be exceedingly impolite to put wheel ruts into a groomed
> trail, even if legal),
>

Yes indeed.
(Emergency services excepted.)


> but it's been long enough since I traveled it that I can't recall the
> signage.
>

I don't recall if we ever used that scenic shortcut - we certainly did
various 2/302/Kancamagus loops, mid last century, through all the other,
major notches, both summer and leaf-peeper.
Now I want to drive this notch sometime before peak-leaf-peeper :-D.

(I am painfully aware how rusty my snowmobile skills are and would not
attempt it in winter unless in a group tour with a paid professional guide
and roustabouts to get me unstuck ! :-D  Knowing your own limits is key in
the back-country.)


> My fuzzy recollection is a gate on the Base Station end.
>

There was already an old Note requesting clarification of the
status/signage of the Gate there in OSM, so you are likely correct that it
is (or was!) there.

I can't find a definitive answer on the NH DOT site, and the WMNF MVUM
> shows it to be a non-forest road through the forest.
>

Thanks for searching !

// Bill, exiled in Boston, Flatland, USA
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Nathan Grasso]

Since OSM is used around the world, shouldn't intellectual property laws in
other countries be considered?

Nathan Grasso
https://osm.org/user/Hexocyte

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 2:12 PM Mark Wagner  wrote:

> In the United States, facts can't be copyrighted, only specific ways of
> expressing them.  If a news article says "the road is closed in the
> winter from Wherezit Junction to Anytown", you can freely extract the
> fact of the closure, look for the OSM ways corresponding to the
> description, and apply a "closed in the winter" tag.
>
> (If the news article instead has a map of the closure, the copyright
> situation becomes more questionable, because now you're copying not
> just the facts of the closure, but possibly the way they're expressed
> as well.)
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Kevin Broderick]

However, that assumes that you can trust the news to be accurate, and the
distinction between "closed in winter" and "not maintained for winter
travel" is not one I expect the news media to get right. The article I saw
quoted the driver has having seen a "Not maintained for winter travel" sign
and continuing because he didn't think that implied a closure (which is
true, even if it may be a poor choice in a minivan).

Given that it is a snowmachine trail, "closed" seems more likely (and it
would be exceedingly impolite to put wheel ruts into a groomed trail, even
if legal), but it's been long enough since I traveled it that I can't
recall the signage. My fuzzy recollection is a gate on the Base Station
end. I can't find a definitive answer on the NH DOT site, and the WMNF MVUM
shows it to be a non-forest road through the forest.

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 2:11 PM Mark Wagner  wrote:

> On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 14:47:35 -0500
> Bill Ricker  wrote:
>
> > Kevin asks,
> > > is Jefferson Notch Road actually closed to wheeled vehicles in
> > > winter or
> > just not maintained?
> >
> > Per copyright news reports, it is signed as closed to wheeled
> > vehicles, open to snow-machines only, in winter.
> > (As should be obvious, to correctly tag this according to our
> > license, we do need some on-the ground or license0compatible
> > verification of the facts form the news, as well as a decision on
> > what tags to use.)
>
> In the United States, facts can't be copyrighted, only specific ways of
> expressing them.  If a news article says "the road is closed in the
> winter from Wherezit Junction to Anytown", you can freely extract the
> fact of the closure, look for the OSM ways corresponding to the
> description, and apply a "closed in the winter" tag.
>
> (If the news article instead has a map of the closure, the copyright
> situation becomes more questionable, because now you're copying not
> just the facts of the closure, but possibly the way they're expressed
> as well.)
>
> --
> Mark
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Mark Wagner]

On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 14:47:35 -0500
Bill Ricker  wrote:

> Kevin asks,
> > is Jefferson Notch Road actually closed to wheeled vehicles in
> > winter or  
> just not maintained?
> 
> Per copyright news reports, it is signed as closed to wheeled
> vehicles, open to snow-machines only, in winter.
> (As should be obvious, to correctly tag this according to our
> license, we do need some on-the ground or license0compatible
> verification of the facts form the news, as well as a decision on
> what tags to use.)

In the United States, facts can't be copyrighted, only specific ways of
expressing them.  If a news article says "the road is closed in the
winter from Wherezit Junction to Anytown", you can freely extract the
fact of the closure, look for the OSM ways corresponding to the
description, and apply a "closed in the winter" tag.

(If the news article instead has a map of the closure, the copyright
situation becomes more questionable, because now you're copying not
just the facts of the closure, but possibly the way they're expressed
as well.)

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Bill Ricker]

Kevin asks,
> is Jefferson Notch Road actually closed to wheeled vehicles in winter or
just not maintained?

Per copyright news reports, it is signed as closed to wheeled vehicles,
open to snow-machines only, in winter.
(As should be obvious, to correctly tag this according to our license, we
do need some on-the ground or license0compatible verification of the facts
form the news, as well as a decision on what tags to use.)

OSM has a gate node at at least the south end, with a note calling for more
details. Unclear if it's an actual gate or the seasonal prohibition sign
encoded as a gate. (Problem with gates being if it's locked, and then
frozen, the larger rescue cats/ATV or fire trucks may have to fight it
open. The ATVs that  rescued these folks probably needed any gate open to
get up after them, let alone the tow that recovered the car?)

On the side topic of "The GPS made me do it", I just found out Tim Harford
aka "The Undercover Economist" closes season 1 of his new Podcast
"Cautionary Tales", discussing mistakes and learning from them, with Ep.8  You
have reached your desination

drawing a connection from Greek Oracles to over-faith in modern SATNAV.
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[brad]

Considering the keys pointed to by Zeke, I also like winter_service=no.

There are a few US or state highways in CO which close, the tagging is 
not consistent.


US 34, Independence pass
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/627645541#map=17/39.10849/-106.55914
"motor_vehicle"="conditional=no @ winter"

US 34, Rocky mtn NP,  way 329057779
has it embedded in the name and also:
access:conditional=no @ Oct 14th - May 31st

I'd like to point out that many of the roads in the rocky mtns are not 
maintained in the winter.   That goes for almost every forest service 
road, and many county roads.   I think it's proper to leave these 
without an explicit winter tag with the implicit understanding that safe 
passage is not guaranteed.



On 1/1/20 9:50 PM, Zeke Farwell wrote:

This looks like something that there still is not consensus on.

Here are couple of roads that are not plowed in the winter in my area 
of Vermont.  Both are tagged differently:

Lincoln Gap Road: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/19729533
VT 108 through Smugglers Notch: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/48775843

Looks like we have a few different overlapping keys:

  * access:conditional


  * seasonal

  * winter_service


winter_service=no looks like the simplest option to me, but not 
knowing how the data will be used, the safest bet is probably to put 
/"closed in winter"/ right in the name as is the case with VT 108.  
It's not correct data modeling, but it will mean people looking at a 
map are sure to see it.



On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 10:10 PM Bill Ricker > wrote:



> Burlington Family Rescued After GPS Leads Minivan Down
Snowmobile Path. BURLINGTON (CBS)
> It was an early morning rescue by ATV Sunday in Jefferson, New
Hampshire.
> ... The family was stranded on Jefferson Notch Road, which is
restricted to snowmobiles only during the winter months.
> 2 days ago
>

https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/12/29/burlington-family-stranded-after-following-gps-onto-snowmobile-trail

Yeah, I'm not surprised that a road that goes literally through
Jefferson Notch isn't plowed in the winter; the road's high point
in the notch (aka "col" or "saddle," the diminutive of "pass") is
3,009 feet (917 m), only barely below the height of Mount Mitten
(929 m) which the road passes, and lower than Currier Mtn (838 m)
just beyond.  Yeah that's not high in young mountains, but at this
latitude, that altitude gets plenty snow. I expect even the winter
snowmobile path through the notch should be attempted only by
parties of multiple experienced operators prepared for mountains'
changeable conditions.

(I'm guessing the gating/bollards will get upgraded so that only
snowmobiles, Cats, and emergency 4WD/6WD even /can/ enter during
winter.)

In the summer, this road will provide a lovely if challenging
shortcut between US 2 and US 302, of which there are precious few
in the environs of Mt Washington and the Presidential Range of the
White Mountains.

OSM -
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/18846225#map=12/44.3103/-71.3696
Our way does not (as of this writing) show a tag indicating
seasonally variable access.
Proposed tagwinter_service=no


isn't quite strong enough but would be a start.

What is the right way to tag a road which is 3 season dramatic
automobile mountain short-cut and one-season snowmobile trail?


-- 
Bill Ricker

bill.n1...@gmail.com 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Greg Troxel]

Tod Fitch  writes:

> In the California Sierra Nevada I tagged a couple of roads with:
>
> conditional:access=“no @ (Nov-May)”
> note=“Seasonal closure from first snow until spring, see CalTrans website for 
> status”
> website=“http://www.dot.ca.gov/cgi-bin/roads.cgi”
>
> With the barrier=gate at either end of the seasonal section tagged with the 
> same conditional:access and note tags.
>
> In retrospect, I probably should have used a description tag rather than a 
> note tag for the descriptive text.

Agreed on description vs note.  My impression is that note is appopriate
to communicate something to future mappers, when the intent is to have
them improve it and remove the note.  Perhaps I only feel that way
because OsmAnd shows note= and fixme= when osm editing support is turned
on.

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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Kevin Broderick]

If we're going with access:conditional, it *should* be mode-of-transport
specific.  It's pretty common for closed-in-winter roads to be open to
non-wheeled transport (e.g. skis and snowmachines); the other road I've
lived near (Beartooth Pass, US 212 between Red Lodge and Cooke City,
Montana) falls into the same category. I don't think I ever figured out a
good way to tag it, and while it's since been updated with maxspeed and
lane data, it's not marked as seasonal (among the ways involved:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/454632622#map=15/44.9886/-109.4233=ND).
That road is a particularly interesting case because there's a section
that's closed and gated based on a schedule (but open to over-snow vehicles
and skiers / cyclists / etc) as well as a portion that's not maintained for
winter travel, posted "Road Closed", and regularly traveled (and sometimes
even plowed) by locals until snow gets deep enough to make it impassable
without a tracked vehicle.

Also, is Jefferson Notch Road actually closed to wheeled vehicles in winter
or just not maintained? That's a very important distinction for some
drivers in the late fall and early spring (i.e. before snow depth is
sufficient to make it impassable). winter_service= and access:conditional=
both seem important pieces of data to note, but I'm not opposed to adding
"closed in winter" as an additional part of the name, assuming most data
consumers won't adequately consider access:conditional or winter_service.


On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 11:52 PM Zeke Farwell  wrote:

> This looks like something that there still is not consensus on.
>
> Here are couple of roads that are not plowed in the winter in my area of
> Vermont.  Both are tagged differently:
> Lincoln Gap Road: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/19729533
> VT 108 through Smugglers Notch: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/48775843
>
> Looks like we have a few different overlapping keys:
>
>- access:conditional
>
> 
>- seasonal
>
>- winter_service
>
>
> winter_service=no looks like the simplest option to me, but not knowing
> how the data will be used, the safest bet is probably to put  *"closed in
> winter"* right in the name as is the case with VT 108.  It's not correct
> data modeling, but it will mean people looking at a map are sure to see it.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 10:10 PM Bill Ricker  wrote:
>
>>
>> > Burlington Family Rescued After GPS Leads Minivan Down Snowmobile Path.
>> BURLINGTON (CBS)
>> > It was an early morning rescue by ATV Sunday in Jefferson, New
>> Hampshire.
>> > ... The family was stranded on Jefferson Notch Road, which is
>> restricted to snowmobiles only during the winter months.
>> > 2 days ago
>> >
>> https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/12/29/burlington-family-stranded-after-following-gps-onto-snowmobile-trail
>>
>> Yeah, I'm not surprised that a road that goes literally through Jefferson
>> Notch isn't plowed in the winter; the road's high point in the notch (aka
>> "col" or "saddle," the diminutive of "pass") is 3,009 feet (917 m), only
>> barely below the height of Mount Mitten (929 m) which the road passes, and
>> lower than Currier Mtn (838 m) just beyond.  Yeah that's not high in young
>> mountains, but at this latitude, that altitude gets plenty snow. I expect
>> even the winter snowmobile path through the notch should be attempted only
>> by parties of multiple experienced operators prepared for mountains'
>> changeable conditions.
>>
>> (I'm guessing the gating/bollards will get upgraded so that only
>> snowmobiles, Cats, and emergency 4WD/6WD even /can/ enter during winter.)
>>
>> In the summer, this road will provide a lovely if challenging shortcut
>> between US 2 and US 302, of which there are precious few in the environs of
>> Mt Washington and the Presidential Range of the White Mountains.
>>
>> OSM - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/18846225#map=12/44.3103/-71.3696
>> Our way does not (as of this writing) show a tag indicating seasonally
>> variable access.
>> Proposed tag winter_service=no
>> 
>> isn't quite strong enough but would be a start.
>>
>> What is the right way to tag a road which is 3 season dramatic automobile
>> mountain short-cut and one-season snowmobile trail?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bill Ricker
>> bill.n1...@gmail.com
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
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>>
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Zeke Farwell]

This looks like something that there still is not consensus on.

Here are couple of roads that are not plowed in the winter in my area of
Vermont.  Both are tagged differently:
Lincoln Gap Road: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/19729533
VT 108 through Smugglers Notch: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/48775843

Looks like we have a few different overlapping keys:

   - access:conditional
   

   - seasonal
   
   - winter_service
   

winter_service=no looks like the simplest option to me, but not knowing how
the data will be used, the safest bet is probably to put  *"closed in
winter"* right in the name as is the case with VT 108.  It's not correct
data modeling, but it will mean people looking at a map are sure to see it.


On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 10:10 PM Bill Ricker  wrote:

>
> > Burlington Family Rescued After GPS Leads Minivan Down Snowmobile Path.
> BURLINGTON (CBS)
> > It was an early morning rescue by ATV Sunday in Jefferson, New Hampshire.
> > ... The family was stranded on Jefferson Notch Road, which is restricted
> to snowmobiles only during the winter months.
> > 2 days ago
> >
> https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/12/29/burlington-family-stranded-after-following-gps-onto-snowmobile-trail
>
> Yeah, I'm not surprised that a road that goes literally through Jefferson
> Notch isn't plowed in the winter; the road's high point in the notch (aka
> "col" or "saddle," the diminutive of "pass") is 3,009 feet (917 m), only
> barely below the height of Mount Mitten (929 m) which the road passes, and
> lower than Currier Mtn (838 m) just beyond.  Yeah that's not high in young
> mountains, but at this latitude, that altitude gets plenty snow. I expect
> even the winter snowmobile path through the notch should be attempted only
> by parties of multiple experienced operators prepared for mountains'
> changeable conditions.
>
> (I'm guessing the gating/bollards will get upgraded so that only
> snowmobiles, Cats, and emergency 4WD/6WD even /can/ enter during winter.)
>
> In the summer, this road will provide a lovely if challenging shortcut
> between US 2 and US 302, of which there are precious few in the environs of
> Mt Washington and the Presidential Range of the White Mountains.
>
> OSM - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/18846225#map=12/44.3103/-71.3696
> Our way does not (as of this writing) show a tag indicating seasonally
> variable access.
> Proposed tag winter_service=no
> 
> isn't quite strong enough but would be a start.
>
> What is the right way to tag a road which is 3 season dramatic automobile
> mountain short-cut and one-season snowmobile trail?
>
>
> --
> Bill Ricker
> bill.n1...@gmail.com
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
> ___
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Re: [Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Tod Fitch]

In the California Sierra Nevada I tagged a couple of roads with:

conditional:access=“no @ (Nov-May)”
note=“Seasonal closure from first snow until spring, see CalTrans website for 
status”
website=“http://www.dot.ca.gov/cgi-bin/roads.cgi”

With the barrier=gate at either end of the seasonal section tagged with the 
same conditional:access and note tags.

In retrospect, I probably should have used a description tag rather than a note 
tag for the descriptive text.

—Tod

> On Jan 1, 2020, at 7:08 PM, Bill Ricker  wrote:
> 
> 
> > Burlington Family Rescued After GPS Leads Minivan Down Snowmobile Path. 
> > BURLINGTON (CBS)
> > It was an early morning rescue by ATV Sunday in Jefferson, New Hampshire.
> > ... The family was stranded on Jefferson Notch Road, which is restricted to 
> > snowmobiles only during the winter months.
> > 2 days ago
> > https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/12/29/burlington-family-stranded-after-following-gps-onto-snowmobile-trail
> >  
> > 
> 
> Yeah, I'm not surprised that a road that goes literally through Jefferson 
> Notch isn't plowed in the winter; the road's high point in the notch (aka 
> "col" or "saddle," the diminutive of "pass") is 3,009 feet (917 m), only 
> barely below the height of Mount Mitten (929 m) which the road passes, and 
> lower than Currier Mtn (838 m) just beyond.  Yeah that's not high in young 
> mountains, but at this latitude, that altitude gets plenty snow. I expect 
> even the winter snowmobile path through the notch should be attempted only by 
> parties of multiple experienced operators prepared for mountains' changeable 
> conditions.
> 
> (I'm guessing the gating/bollards will get upgraded so that only snowmobiles, 
> Cats, and emergency 4WD/6WD even /can/ enter during winter.)
> 
> In the summer, this road will provide a lovely if challenging shortcut 
> between US 2 and US 302, of which there are precious few in the environs of 
> Mt Washington and the Presidential Range of the White Mountains.
> 
> OSM - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/18846225#map=12/44.3103/-71.3696 
> 
> Our way does not (as of this writing) show a tag indicating seasonally 
> variable access.
> Proposed tag winter_service <>=no 
> 
>  isn't quite strong enough but would be a start.
> 
> What is the right way to tag a road which is 3 season dramatic automobile 
> mountain short-cut and one-season snowmobile trail?
> 
> 
> --
> Bill Ricker
> bill.n1...@gmail.com 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux 
> ___
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[Talk-us] Jefferson Notch Road and latest "GPS made me do it" in the news

[Bill Ricker]

> Burlington Family Rescued After GPS Leads Minivan Down Snowmobile Path.
BURLINGTON (CBS)
> It was an early morning rescue by ATV Sunday in Jefferson, New Hampshire.
> ... The family was stranded on Jefferson Notch Road, which is restricted
to snowmobiles only during the winter months.
> 2 days ago
>
https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/12/29/burlington-family-stranded-after-following-gps-onto-snowmobile-trail

Yeah, I'm not surprised that a road that goes literally through Jefferson
Notch isn't plowed in the winter; the road's high point in the notch (aka
"col" or "saddle," the diminutive of "pass") is 3,009 feet (917 m), only
barely below the height of Mount Mitten (929 m) which the road passes, and
lower than Currier Mtn (838 m) just beyond.  Yeah that's not high in young
mountains, but at this latitude, that altitude gets plenty snow. I expect
even the winter snowmobile path through the notch should be attempted only
by parties of multiple experienced operators prepared for mountains'
changeable conditions.

(I'm guessing the gating/bollards will get upgraded so that only
snowmobiles, Cats, and emergency 4WD/6WD even /can/ enter during winter.)

In the summer, this road will provide a lovely if challenging shortcut
between US 2 and US 302, of which there are precious few in the environs of
Mt Washington and the Presidential Range of the White Mountains.

OSM - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/18846225#map=12/44.3103/-71.3696
Our way does not (as of this writing) show a tag indicating seasonally
variable access.
Proposed tag winter_service=no

isn't quite strong enough but would be a start.

What is the right way to tag a road which is 3 season dramatic automobile
mountain short-cut and one-season snowmobile trail?


-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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