Re: [Talk-us] Amtrak network=Amtrak tagging

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

Neither this talk-us list nor I have received any response to my request for 
comments (on- or off-list).  Hence I might believe it is safe to assume there 
is no widespread opposition to harmonizing the network=* tag on all Amtrak 
routes to network=Amtrak without further subdividing values within that 
key-value pair (as below).  Again, the passenger=* tag (as below, with values 
[suburban, regional, national, international]) now denotes the kind of 
passenger service available without subdividing the single network of Amtrak, 
which seems a valid justification for setting all Amtrak routes to be 
network=Amtrak.  We can take further Discussion on this to 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Talk:Amtrak.  Thank you.

While our Amtrak wiki characterizes many route=train relations as "rough," they 
continue to improve (better tagging as above, public_transport:version=1 being 
upgraded to v2, underlying infrastructure route=railway relations created with 
members that are better named and with correct usage=* tags, many platforms 
have been added thanks to the "Add platforms" MapRoulette challenge...).  The 
US has one of the largest, if not THE largest rail and passenger rail networks 
on Earth, it is a large task to improve the many pieces to be "world-class 
passenger train route data."  OSM is well underway towards this goal and 
progress has been steady for several years.  See 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Amtrak and/or 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States_railways if you wish to 
participate.

Did you "play with trains" when you were younger?  Please help improve OSM's 
"national train set" in the US:  it's actually rather fun!

SteveA
California


> On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:08 AM, OSM Volunteer stevea  
> wrote:
> 
> I remain listening as to what OSM might best do with the network= tag on 
> Amtrak routes.  Some additional research (Wikipedia) reveals that "Amtrak 
> services fall into three groups:  short-haul service on the Northeast 
> Corridor, state-supported short haul service outside the Northeast Corridor, 
> and long-distance service known within Amtrak as the National Network."  (It 
> is not known what routes are in this "National Network.")  As for 
> "international" routes — there are three which continue into Canada — these 
> are not mentioned, although it may be that these three international routes 
> are considered to be in the National Network.
> 
> Current tagging (passenger=*) of national, regional and suburban (meaning 
> "commuter") seem to correlate quite well with these three groups, and the 
> three international routes are indeed tagged passenger=international.  But 
> that is the passenger=* tag, not the network=* tag.  I still wonder (out 
> loud, here) whether all their network=* tags should be set as simply 
> network=Amtrak or whether these three (four, really) groups should be set as:
> 
> network=Amtrak Commuter (on Amtrak routes which are now set to 
> passenger=suburban, meaning "commuter"),
> network=Amtrak Regional (on Amtrak routes which are now set to 
> passenger=regional),
> network=Amtrak National (on Amtrak routes which are now set to 
> passenger=national),
> network=Amtrak International (on Amtrak routes which are now set to 
> passenger=international).
> 
> Because these seem redundant, given the same information can be gleaned from 
> the passenger=* tag, all Amtrak routes set as:
> 
> network=Amtrak
> 
> is what I'm leaning towards doing.  Although, I do remain listening to 
> opinion/guidance from anybody here on talk-us, including pointing me to 
> additional on-line authoritative data.  We're talking about fifty or fewer 
> route=train relation tags, not huge.  Though, as the Northeast Regionals (and 
> other Amtrak routes) break out of rough public_transport:version=1 and grow 
> into version 2 routes, this number will grow.  This is partly why I want to 
> establish network=* tagging as correct, to get ahead of this curve.
> 
> Thank you for reading,
> SteveA


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Re: [Talk-us] Amtrak network=Amtrak tagging

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

I remain listening as to what OSM might best do with the network= tag on Amtrak 
routes.  Some additional research (Wikipedia) reveals that "Amtrak services 
fall into three groups:  short-haul service on the Northeast Corridor, 
state-supported short haul service outside the Northeast Corridor, and 
long-distance service known within Amtrak as the National Network."  (It is not 
known what routes are in this "National Network.")  As for "international" 
routes — there are three which continue into Canada — these are not mentioned, 
although it may be that these three international routes are considered to be 
in the National Network.

Current tagging (passenger=*) of national, regional and suburban (meaning 
"commuter") seem to correlate quite well with these three groups, and the three 
international routes are indeed tagged passenger=international.  But that is 
the passenger=* tag, not the network=* tag.  I still wonder (out loud, here) 
whether all their network=* tags should be set as simply network=Amtrak or 
whether these three (four, really) groups should be set as:

network=Amtrak Commuter (on Amtrak routes which are now set to 
passenger=suburban, meaning "commuter"),
network=Amtrak Regional (on Amtrak routes which are now set to 
passenger=regional),
network=Amtrak National (on Amtrak routes which are now set to 
passenger=national),
network=Amtrak International (on Amtrak routes which are now set to 
passenger=international).

Because these seem redundant, given the same information can be gleaned from 
the passenger=* tag, all Amtrak routes set as:

network=Amtrak

is what I'm leaning towards doing.  Although, I do remain listening to 
opinion/guidance from anybody here on talk-us, including pointing me to 
additional on-line authoritative data.  We're talking about fifty or fewer 
route=train relation tags, not huge.  Though, as the Northeast Regionals (and 
other Amtrak routes) break out of rough public_transport:version=1 and grow 
into version 2 routes, this number will grow.  This is partly why I want to 
establish network=* tagging as correct, to get ahead of this curve.

Thank you for reading,
SteveA
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Re: [Talk-us] Amtrak network=Amtrak tagging

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

On Mar 25, 2018, at 11:09 PM, Greg Morgan  wrote:
> I wonder what to do with some of the routes.  For example, additional tracks 
> were added in the Tucson area. If we add a route, say, us 60 then an east and 
> west relation is created along with a master route. Do we do the same with 
> rail routes or are all the rails thrown into the same relation?

Hi again, Greg:

What I see in Tucson is "Sun Link" tram/streetcar, 
https://www.osm.org/relation/3920972 added over a year ago.  It is tagged as a 
public_transport:version=2 relation, though I don't think it is as I don't see 
a master_route relation.  If you want to take a look at that and check it / fix 
it up (even to simply retag it as a correct/ed v1 route), that would be great!  
If by "some of the routes" (in the Tucson area) you mean some other rail 
infrastructure, I'm curious to know which you mean.  Union Pacific rail through 
Tucson remains poorly tagged from its original TIGER import days and can use 
cleanup as described in our

https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States_railways#Editing_Railroads_starting_from_TIGER_data
 .

Yes, assembling railway=rail into route=railway and route=train (light_rail, 
tram, monorail...) relations can be tedious and a bit confusing until you get 
the hang of it.  Good news:  we wiki-document how to do this fairly well.  In 
"other" news, there remains a great deal of work to do in USA Rail!

Not to sound too much like a "lonely heart rail mapper" calling across the 
chasms of talk-us, looking for more kindred spirits who OSM rail in the USA, I 
am doing that here and now, as I'd like to better establish contact with 
additional active USA rail mappers.  In the last few years OSM has grown 
statewide rail wikis (now at eight, nine...so, still forty-something to go!) 
and I know I'm not the only mapper who wants to keep momentum going to 
wiki-document all 50 states' rail infrastructure and passenger routes.

Thanks in advance for any answer/mapping you might offer,
SteveA
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Re: [Talk-us] Amtrak network=Amtrak tagging

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

You're quite welcome.
Steve

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Re: [Talk-us] Amtrak network=Amtrak tagging

[Greg Morgan]

Thank you for the detailed response.

Greg

On Mar 25, 2018 11:57 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea" 
wrote:

I should have included:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States_railways

as that is a better starting place (for your flavor of question) than our
"at the top" Amtrak wiki.

There's a lot to grok to become a good OSM rail editor (and don't forget
updating wiki), yet, many of us are doing exactly that!

Steve
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Re: [Talk-us] Amtrak network=Amtrak tagging

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

I should have included:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States_railways

as that is a better starting place (for your flavor of question) than our "at 
the top" Amtrak wiki.

There's a lot to grok to become a good OSM rail editor (and don't forget 
updating wiki), yet, many of us are doing exactly that!

Steve
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Re: [Talk-us] Amtrak network=Amtrak tagging

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

Hi Greg:

Great questions.  If you are a rail public_transport:version=2 super-jockey, 
hey, polish them up to a firm buff and we'll marvel at their brilliant shine!

However (and this is pedestrian me), I make "better" progress (higher quality 
data, at the expense of being slower) following roughly these steps to get to 
version 1, first.  Though these ordered steps are not strictly required, after 
much experience, I find this flow works and "teaches/practices me into becoming 
a better JOSM rail editor" (and others watching in the map, and progress in the 
wiki...) as I go:

1)  Tag the rail infrastructure correctly with railway=rail (or light_rail, 
subway, tram, monorail...).  If it was TIGER-imported, change its name=* tag to 
operator=* and if you know it, add a name=* tag (like XYZ Subdivision or Orange 
Line Light Rail).  Set a usage=[main, branch, industrial...] tag.  Don't 
include service=siding, service=yard, service=crossover, service=spur in 
route=railway relations, just the "main" line (even if it is tagged 
usage=branch).

2)  Gather same-infrastructure, same-name, same-operator, same=usage, "in the 
same subdivision or track set" into one route=railway relation.

3)  If not light_rail, subway, monorail or tram, make a route=train relation 
which has the elements of that route=railway relation, plus railway=station 
nodes.  (If tram, they might be rail=tram_stop nodes...there is also platform 
tagging, which is for v2, we are getting there).

With those steps, you've made a route=railway (important!) as well as a v1 
train route.  As for extending these to v2, that's more complex and is outside 
the scope of a talk-us post, I'll not do it here, we have wikis for this.

"Starting at the top" (national passenger rail) is 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Amtrak.
There are several state Rail wikis, a simple one is 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/New_Mexico/Railroads, 
a medium-complexity one is https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/South Carolina/Railroads,
a ridiculously-complex one is https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/California/Railroads.

These are usually about 75%-80% descriptive of route=railway relations (the 
underlying infrastructure, which carries both freight/industrial traffic and 
sometimes also passenger traffic) and maybe 20%-25% descriptive of route=train 
(or other passenger rail, like tram, light_rail or monorail).

See https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Relation:route (train, light_rail...) wiki to get 
to v1, and https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Relation:public_transport to grow these to 
v2 (underway now all over the world there are v1 train routes in OSM).

Happy to help,
Steve

> On Mar 25, 2018, at 11:09 PM, Greg Morgan  wrote:
> 
> I wonder what to do with some of the routes.  For example, additional tracks 
> were added in the Tucson area. If we add a route, say, us 60 then an east and 
> west relation is created along with a master route. Do we do the same with 
> rail routes or are all the rails thrown into the same relation?
> 
> Regards,
> Greg

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