Re: [Talk-us] Possible roundabouts?

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 09/30/2018 11:20 AM, Minh Nguyen wrote:
> This could either be considered a roundabout (junction=roundabout) or a
> turning loop that happens to have two driveways sprouting out from it.
> Either way, given the width of the loop, the loop is one-way.

Keep Right will mark it as an error if a junction=roundabout has two or
fewer connections. I am in favor of tagging this as a turning loop
(though there needs to be a better way of tagging ways as turning loops,
as the current method conflicts with the real highway type).

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Talk-us] Possible roundabouts?

[Minh Nguyen]

On 2018-09-06 23:27, Marian Poara wrote:

40.5234202, -111.8762446


Despite its size, the standard roundabout rules normally apply on these 
decorative or traffic calming circles -- there simply isn't enough room 
for a driver inside the circle to yield to a driver entering the circle. 
So junction=roundabout is still justified.


This roundabout is small enough that OSRM classifies it as a "roundabout 
turn", but only if the circular way is tagged junction=roundabout. 
Otherwise, you'd get confusing guidance like "Turn right, then turn right".



35.8497728, -86.4547473


This is definitely a roundabout, to be tagged junction=roundabout. Bing 
imagery shows a yield sign at each of the four approaches. Even without 
street-level imagery, you can see pedestrian islands in the middle of 
all four approaches, a hallmark of modern roundabouts in the U.S.



42.6811136, -73.6987507


This could either be considered a roundabout (junction=roundabout) or a 
turning loop that happens to have two driveways sprouting out from it. 
Either way, given the width of the loop, the loop is one-way.


Incidentally, it's kind of awful that a four-lane road would abruptly 
end in a one-lane turning circle without any signage at all.



40.22109, -76.874981


This is ambiguous. Based on the road width alone, you wouldn't be able 
to tell that the circular road is even one-way. But in Mapbox imagery, 
you can clearly see from the wear on the pavement that drivers are 
treating it like a one-way road, only turning right onto it from each of 
the three approaches. As long as it's a one-way road, it would most 
likely be a junction=roundabout as well.


And if we have OSC or Mapillary street level 
images and it is confirmed that they don’t have any roundabout sign? In 
many residential areas (but not only), there isn’t any one way sign 
inside the small “roundabouts” and it seems that both directions are used.


In residential areas, you'll often find cases where the rules are 
considered obvious to drivers and the speed limit isn't high enough to 
warrant the additional cost of regulatory signage. But that shouldn't 
change how we use tags like junction=roundabout that significantly 
affect guidance instructions.


--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us


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Re: [Talk-us] Possible roundabouts?

[Chris Hathcock]

 Without looking at the intersections in question, I suspect they could be
traffic calming circles. These are common in residential areas. They're
frequently uncontrolled and unsigned and the purpose of them is to slow
down traffic, not to improve traffic flow like a roundabout.

I agree with Albert that junction=circular is the way to go. However, I'm
unsure of whether it would be better to just tag the intersection node or
draw out the circle and add 4 nodes as the wiki seems to suggest. I think
you can argue it either way, there's technically a roundish right of way,
but all of the ones I've seen are basically a hole cut in the middle of an
otherwise straight intersection. Sometimes the circle is small enough that
you can swerve around it if you're going straight. It's not something I've
tried to map before so I haven't given it much thought.


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 1:54 PM Albert Pundt  wrote:

> Roundabouts are somewhat common nowadays in the US and follow the same
> rules as European roundabouts: entering traffic yields to circle traffic.
> Many intersections, such as the rotaries in Massachusetts, follow these
> rules despite not being signed as "roundabouts."
>
> We do, however, still have many oldschool traffic circles with odd
> yielding rules, or just nothing signed at all. These are typically tagged
> with junction=circular.
>
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 2:37 PM Marian Poara 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> We have a short but important question: should we tag with
>> “junction=roundabout”  the circular intersections in US where there is a
>> physical center you can’t drive over and there is more than one way
>> entering, based on satellite imagery? (some examples here: 40.5234202,
>> -111.8762446, 35.8497728, -86.4547473, 42.6811136, -73.6987507, 40.22109,
>> -76.874981). And if we have OSC or Mapillary street level images and it is
>> confirmed that they don’t have any roundabout sign? In many residential
>> areas (but not only), there isn’t any one way sign inside the small
>> “roundabouts” and it seems that both directions are used.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks and regards!
>>
>> Marian Poara
>>
>>
>>
>> Marian Poară
>>
>> Map Analyst
>>
>> www.telenav.com
>> ___
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>>
>
>
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> —Albert Pundt
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Re: [Talk-us] Possible roundabouts?

[Volker Schmidt]

Have you considered the use of traffic_calming=island on junctions as
described at the end of  [1] and in [2] ?

Volker
Italy

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundabout
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:traffic_calming%3Disland
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Re: [Talk-us] Possible roundabouts?

[Rihards]

On 2018.09.07. 23:12, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 3:32 PM Rihards  wrote:
>> Note that roundabouts don't have implicit yielding rules - actually, by
>> default the entering traffic has the right of way, which is why you'll
>> see yield signs in about 99% of them.
> 
> Maybe in your state, not in mine!  On a circle in New York,
> circulating traffic has right of way over entering traffic.
> The YIELD sign is there to remind drivers of the fact,
> and yes, most roundabouts have YIELD signs.
> https://dmv.ny.gov/about-dmv/chapter-5-intersections-and-turns

Very interesting, thank you for the info.
Is there a clear signage for all roundabouts?   

> The state DOT does warn that other jurisdictions have different
> rules, granting the right-of-way to entering vehicles over circulating
> ones.
> https://www.dot.ny.gov/main/roundabouts/background
> That's usually because there's a general rule that traffic on
> the right at at an uncontrolled intersection has priority, and
> the jurisdiction in question hasn't introduced a special
> case for roundabouts at all. (Some actually also ignore
> freeway entrances, so that traffic entering has the right
> of way over traffic already on the freeway! In such a case,
> the laws of physics trump the traffic laws: the right  of
> way belongs to the greater kinetic energy.)
-- 
 Rihards

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Re: [Talk-us] Possible roundabouts?

[Rihards]

On 2018.09.07. 21:52, Albert Pundt wrote:
> Roundabouts are somewhat common nowadays in the US and follow the same
> rules as European roundabouts: entering traffic yields to circle
> traffic. Many intersections, such as the rotaries in Massachusetts,
> follow these rules despite not being signed as "roundabouts."
> 
> We do, however, still have many oldschool traffic circles with odd
> yielding rules, or just nothing signed at all. These are typically
> tagged with junction=circular.

Note that roundabouts don't have implicit yielding rules - actually, by
default the entering traffic has the right of way, which is why you'll
see yield signs in about 99% of them.

A roundabout would be a place with one-way traffic (if there's a
roundabout sign, that's even better - easier for us). Two-way traffic
would not be a roundabout.
I haven't seen/tagged junction=circular, it might be appropriate in such
cases.

If it's a small one with a (streetcar) passable central section, that
would be mini_roundabout - but only if there's nothing obstructing
straight-through traffic.

> On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 2:37 PM Marian Poara  > wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> We have a short but important question: should we tag with
> “junction=roundabout”  the circular intersections in US where there
> is a physical center you can’t drive over and there is more than one
> way entering, based on satellite imagery? (some examples here:
> 40.5234202, -111.8762446, 35.8497728, -86.4547473, 42.6811136,
> -73.6987507, 40.22109, -76.874981). And if we have OSC or Mapillary
> street level images and it is confirmed that they don’t have any
> roundabout sign? In many residential areas (but not only), there
> isn’t any one way sign inside the small “roundabouts” and it seems
> that both directions are used. 
> 
> __ __
> 
> Thanks and regards!
> 
> Marian Poara
> 
> __ __
> 
> Marian Poară
> 
> Map Analyst
> 
> 
> 
> www.telenav.com 
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> —Albert Pundt
> 
> 
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> 


-- 
 Rihards

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Re: [Talk-us] Possible roundabouts?

[Mike N]

On 9/7/2018 2:27 AM, Marian Poara wrote:
In many residential areas (but not only), there isn’t any one way sign 
inside the small “roundabouts” and it seems that both directions are used.


  In places without much law enforcement presence and no mandatory 
driver training, original residents may shortcut the wrong way because 
they resent the newly reconfigured roadway.  Perhaps when there is 
little traffic and they at least check.


  (around here, drivers have even gone the wrong way on new proper 
signed and curbed roundabouts until an extensive barrel network was set 
up for months to train).


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Re: [Talk-us] Possible roundabouts?

[Albert Pundt]

Roundabouts are somewhat common nowadays in the US and follow the same
rules as European roundabouts: entering traffic yields to circle traffic.
Many intersections, such as the rotaries in Massachusetts, follow these
rules despite not being signed as "roundabouts."

We do, however, still have many oldschool traffic circles with odd yielding
rules, or just nothing signed at all. These are typically tagged with
junction=circular.

On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 2:37 PM Marian Poara 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> We have a short but important question: should we tag with
> “junction=roundabout”  the circular intersections in US where there is a
> physical center you can’t drive over and there is more than one way
> entering, based on satellite imagery? (some examples here: 40.5234202,
> -111.8762446, 35.8497728, -86.4547473, 42.6811136, -73.6987507, 40.22109,
> -76.874981). And if we have OSC or Mapillary street level images and it is
> confirmed that they don’t have any roundabout sign? In many residential
> areas (but not only), there isn’t any one way sign inside the small
> “roundabouts” and it seems that both directions are used.
>
>
>
> Thanks and regards!
>
> Marian Poara
>
>
>
> Marian Poară
>
> Map Analyst
>
> www.telenav.com
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
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>


-- 
—Albert Pundt
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