Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]
Hey, thanks. I incorporated some of your annotations on the section https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset/Governance#1._Differencing_between_survey_and_armchair_mapping and simplified it. You're right, It's shades of gray because one has to argue for himself/herself, if what she/he has done is survey- or armchair mapping. That's why I think simplify should be kept in mind. I also hope that editors will someday help mappers to create good changeset comments and therefore providing a guide to mappers so they can easily categorize their changesets and making it easier for others to double check and to apply corrections where necessary and informing the mapper of what has been done wrong and how to prevent that from happening again. Cheerio Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram -Original Message- From: Greg Troxel To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution] Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:43:23 -0400 > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing > Daylight Map Distribution]From: Frederik Ramm > > Nothing against the idea but what happened to the good old source > > tagwhere source=survey would point to mappers on the ground, > > andsource=XYZaerial imagery would point to armchairing? I'm very sympathetic to knowing the on-ground-ness of a change. But Ithink it's shades of gray. This list illustrates what I mean: * armchair a place I have never been to, and which is so far away that I am notfamiliar with the customs. An example would be me (US) editing in Africa. * country-armchair as above, but I know the country norms. Me editing in Glacier NationalPark. * local-armchair as above, but I know the region norms. If I edited some town in MAthat I haven't visited (perhaps because I was going to visit), but Igenerally know how things are. * visited but mapping done by imagery Here, I am editing a place where I've been at some point reasonablyrecently and have some clue, but my edits are based on imagery.However, my recollection is good enough to avoid most of the armchairissues. An example is me fixing up crosswalks and sidewalks two townsaway, but not from field mapping notes. I don't consider thisarmchair, but it's iffy. * editing soon after a visit I got someplace, maybe make notes, maybe remember, and edit based onsome combination of imagery, gpx tracks, notes and memory. I thinkthis is squarely not armchair. * editing while there Actually using an editor while being in the place being edited. I would basically split this into three armchair and three not armchair. So basically I think source including imagery does not really imply"armchairing", in that the use of imagery is not the point, but a lackof familiarity with what's on the ground. I almost always load and lookat imagery when editing after being in the field. I line up ways fromimagery when that works, becuase I have come to believe from experience(with specific imagery sources) that this is more accurate than my gpstracks. (I have been experimenting with raw GPS data and post-processed PPPsolutions, and those I think are close to good imagery.) ___talk mailing listt...@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]
I agree with Greg that there are lots of shades. E.g. places I have been to but not recently (may have changed). I try to describe these facets in the changeset comments with phrases like "no specific local knowledge" (means I do know the area, but not the place I have edited, as opposed to "no local knowledge"=no clue). Or "no recent local knowledge" (I know the place from the past but have not been there recently). Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]
I always put survey+imagery in the last 3 cases. Yves Le 23 mars 2020 18:43:23 GMT+01:00, Greg Troxel a écrit : >> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing >Daylight Map Distribution] >> From: Frederik Ramm >> >>> Nothing against the idea but what happened to the good old source >tag >>> where source=survey would point to mappers on the ground, and >>> source=XYZ >>> aerial imagery would point to armchairing? > >I'm very sympathetic to knowing the on-ground-ness of a change. But I >think it's shades of gray. This list illustrates what I mean: > >* armchair > >a place I have never been to, and which is so far away that I am not >familiar with the customs. An example would be me (US) editing in >Africa. > >* country-armchair > >as above, but I know the country norms. Me editing in Glacier National >Park. > >* local-armchair > >as above, but I know the region norms. If I edited some town in MA >that I haven't visited (perhaps because I was going to visit), but I >generally know how things are. > >* visited but mapping done by imagery > >Here, I am editing a place where I've been at some point reasonably >recently and have some clue, but my edits are based on imagery. >However, my recollection is good enough to avoid most of the armchair >issues. An example is me fixing up crosswalks and sidewalks two towns >away, but not from field mapping notes. I don't consider this >armchair, but it's iffy. > >* editing soon after a visit > >I got someplace, maybe make notes, maybe remember, and edit based on >some combination of imagery, gpx tracks, notes and memory. I think >this is squarely not armchair. > >* editing while there > >Actually using an editor while being in the place being edited. > > > >I would basically split this into three armchair and three not >armchair. > > > > >So basically I think source including imagery does not really imply >"armchairing", in that the use of imagery is not the point, but a lack >of familiarity with what's on the ground. I almost always load and >look >at imagery when editing after being in the field. I line up ways from >imagery when that works, becuase I have come to believe from experience >(with specific imagery sources) that this is more accurate than my gps >tracks. > >(I have been experimenting with raw GPS data and post-processed PPP >solutions, and those I think are close to good imagery.) > > > > >___ >talk mailing list >talk@openstreetmap.org >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map > Distribution] > From: Frederik Ramm > >> Nothing against the idea but what happened to the good old source tag >> where source=survey would point to mappers on the ground, and >> source=XYZ >> aerial imagery would point to armchairing? I'm very sympathetic to knowing the on-ground-ness of a change. But I think it's shades of gray. This list illustrates what I mean: * armchair a place I have never been to, and which is so far away that I am not familiar with the customs. An example would be me (US) editing in Africa. * country-armchair as above, but I know the country norms. Me editing in Glacier National Park. * local-armchair as above, but I know the region norms. If I edited some town in MA that I haven't visited (perhaps because I was going to visit), but I generally know how things are. * visited but mapping done by imagery Here, I am editing a place where I've been at some point reasonably recently and have some clue, but my edits are based on imagery. However, my recollection is good enough to avoid most of the armchair issues. An example is me fixing up crosswalks and sidewalks two towns away, but not from field mapping notes. I don't consider this armchair, but it's iffy. * editing soon after a visit I got someplace, maybe make notes, maybe remember, and edit based on some combination of imagery, gpx tracks, notes and memory. I think this is squarely not armchair. * editing while there Actually using an editor while being in the place being edited. I would basically split this into three armchair and three not armchair. So basically I think source including imagery does not really imply "armchairing", in that the use of imagery is not the point, but a lack of familiarity with what's on the ground. I almost always load and look at imagery when editing after being in the field. I line up ways from imagery when that works, becuase I have come to believe from experience (with specific imagery sources) that this is more accurate than my gps tracks. (I have been experimenting with raw GPS data and post-processed PPP solutions, and those I think are close to good imagery.) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]
Hello again, very big sorry for the delay, was bussy :) I updated the page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset/Governance to include your points of corrections. I also generalized it to comply with writing standards of the OpenStreetMap Wiki Community. Sry to have created the page in the namespace of "Changeset". But I made it clear that it is a stub and not official. My aim is inspiration rather than dictation. Cheers Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram -Original Message- From: Sören Reinecke via talk Reply-To: Sören Reinecke To: Frederik Ramm , talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution] Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:14:25 +0100 > aerial imagery would point to armchairing? no. Changesets made during armchair mapping need to include the hashtag "#armchair" and the source the mapper used in the `source` changeset tag. > happened to the good old source tag where source=survey would point to mappers on the ground in my recent commit I changed the idea to include `source=survey` for changesets made during surveys. Cheers Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message ---- Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution] From: Frederik Ramm To: talk@openstreetmap.org CC: > Hi, > > On 3/10/20 18:48, Sören Reinecke via talk wrote: > > *Spirit of Changeset Governance:* Basically it introduces a way to > > distinguish a changeset made during a survey from a changeset made > > during armchair mapping using information received from imagery or > > external data. In the spirit of more professional Quality Assurance > a > > way for us and the performers to better control validation > processes and > > to take actions more precisely. > > Nothing against the idea but what happened to the good old source tag > where source=survey would point to mappers on the ground, and > source=XYZ > aerial imagery would point to armchairing? > > Bye > Frederik > > ___talk mailing > listt...@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]
> aerial imagery would point to armchairing?no. Changesets made during armchair mapping need to include the hashtag "#armchair" and the source the mapper used in the `source` changeset tag.> happened to the good old source tagwhere source=survey would point to mappers on the groundin my recent commit I changed the idea to include `source=survey` for changesets made during surveys.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message --------Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]From: Frederik Ramm To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: Hi,On 3/10/20 18:48, Sören Reinecke via talk wrote:> *Spirit of Changeset Governance:* Basically it introduces a way to> distinguish a changeset made during a survey from a changeset made> during armchair mapping using information received from imagery or> external data. In the spirit of more professional Quality Assurance a> way for us and the performers to better control validation processes and> to take actions more precisely.Nothing against the idea but what happened to the good old source tagwhere source=survey would point to mappers on the ground, and source=XYZaerial imagery would point to armchairing?ByeFrederik-- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]
Hi, On 3/10/20 18:48, Sören Reinecke via talk wrote: > *Spirit of Changeset Governance:* Basically it introduces a way to > distinguish a changeset made during a survey from a changeset made > during armchair mapping using information received from imagery or > external data. In the spirit of more professional Quality Assurance a > way for us and the performers to better control validation processes and > to take actions more precisely. Nothing against the idea but what happened to the good old source tag where source=survey would point to mappers on the ground, and source=XYZ aerial imagery would point to armchairing? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]
> a changeset with survey info is source=survey, not source=local knowleadgePerdon. It is a mistake> Apart from that, are you suggesting that the main tag become a hashtagor is there a more fundamental idea in the page?Sry, I work with hashtags mostly. Didn't realize the tags for changesets. We could use tags thenCheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]From: "Marc M." To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: Hello,Sören Reinecke wrote :> created a wikipage for it. See > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset/Governance .a changeset with survey info is source=survey, not source=localknowleadge and putting a source on the changeset is not mandatory but avery good praticeApart from that, are you suggesting that the main tag become a hashtagor is there a more fundamental idea in the page?At the very least, such a non-consensual idea should be found somewhereother than in a namespace that might think it's a good practice sharedby the community.Regards,Marc___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]
Hello, Sören Reinecke wrote : > created a wikipage for it. See > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset/Governance . a changeset with survey info is source=survey, not source=local knowleadge and putting a source on the changeset is not mandatory but a very good pratice Apart from that, are you suggesting that the main tag become a hashtag or is there a more fundamental idea in the page? At the very least, such a non-consensual idea should be found somewhere other than in a namespace that might think it's a good practice shared by the community. Regards, Marc ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]
Hey, created a wikipage for it. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset/Governance . Spirit of Changeset Governance: Basically it introduces a way to distinguish a changeset made during a survey from a changeset made during armchair mapping using information received from imagery or external data. In the spirit of more professional Quality Assurance a way for us and the performers to better control validation processes and to take actions more precisely. Feel free to improve and comment Cheers Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram -Original Message- From: Mario Frasca To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map Distribution Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 08:35:15 -0500 that would be VERY nice, if you managed to achieve this. On 10/03/2020 06:46, Sören Reinecke via talk wrote: > In > addition if the mapper works for a company: > > # > > e.g. #facebook > > #amazon > > #microsoft > > #apple I've been asking about the '#apple' hashtag, for quite a while, straight from Andrew Wiseman, but I don't seem to be able to make myself understood, or heard. they have their team, you can find their edits matching changeset timestamp with historic team composition, if you really insist. ___talk mailing listt...@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
