Re: [OSM-talk] Privacy concerns - revive some sort of anonymous editing?

2018-03-03 Thread Greg Morgan 
On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Jibix  wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> I've been a contributor of OpenStreetMap for a few year, with a couple of
> different accounts. I got them deleted today and I though it could be
> worthwhile talking about this here.
>
> In our current era of big data, I have been more and more concerned about
> having all my osm edits publicly linked to my profiles, and these profiles
> publicly listing all these positions and places where I've been, also with
> somehow time information and sometimes comments, etc... visible forever by
> anyone, or any bot. I've looked into making the link between all that data
> not publicly visible, but it seems the functionality there use to be for
> that (anonymous editing) is not possible since 2007/2009.
>
>
Therefore I'm afraid the only way forward I see to address my concerns is
> the following:
> 1) on the one hand having my past accounts deleted, for the corresponding
> change-sets not to be linked any more to my name or pseudonym. I got that
> done today.
> 2) on the other hand, from now on, to periodically create and abandon
> accounts for keeping editing without a massive correlation of data being
> too easily possible (but even like that it's an unperfect tradeoff).
>

If you did not know, not only is there a user name/pseudonym/profile name
but it is linked to an internal number.  The internal number is just a
sequence number that really holds the database together.  More than likely,
the account deletion was nothing more than changing your username.

Start with a fresh account.  Pick some name that you would never user or
take the internal number and add user_ in front of the number.  Then tell
no one what you have done.  Map away.  Map in another area of the world so
that no one can make a relationship between the old you and the new you.
The database needs that internal number to keep the nodes, ways, and
relations glued together.  Otherwise, I think all your plans will not
provide you the privacy that you think that they will.

Regards,
Greg
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Re: [OSM-talk] Privacy concerns - revive some sort of anonymous editing?

2018-03-02 Thread Frederik Ramm 
Hi,

On 03/01/2018 10:35 PM, Jibix wrote:
> I've been looking a bit around to see if there was a plan for developing
> something like that anytime soon, or if it had been implemented already,
> but I couldn't find.

Related: Read the recent minutes of GDPR discussion held in the
Licensing working group
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licensing_Working_Group

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Privacy concerns - revive some sort of anonymous editing?

2018-03-01 Thread Pierre Béland 
Note that contributors can use any character they want for user_name. This is 
more an anonymous Acronym with values such as "user_999",  "_ bp _", "_ laser 
_", "_ creamy _", "_ rifi _" " R1 ", etc.
 
Pierre 
 

Le jeudi 1 mars 2018 18:18:15 HNE, Toby Murray  a 
écrit :  
 
 Not to rain on your account deletion party... but it may be doing less
than you think. User names get replicated out to anyone who consumes
OSM data. It is in the weekly planet dump files as well as all the
minutely/hourly/daily replication diff files. So your old (now
deleted) user name and your edits are still recorded in thousands of
databases across the globe. I have one on my own computer at home
actually. I use it to help analyze potential vandalism edits as
Frederik talked about.

Toby


On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Jibix  wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> I've been a contributor of OpenStreetMap for a few year, with a couple of
> different accounts. I got them deleted today and I though it could be
> worthwhile talking about this here.
>
> In our current era of big data, I have been more and more concerned about
> having all my osm edits publicly linked to my profiles, and these profiles
> publicly listing all these positions and places where I've been, also with
> somehow time information and sometimes comments, etc... visible forever by
> anyone, or any bot. I've looked into making the link between all that data
> not publicly visible, but it seems the functionality there use to be for
> that (anonymous editing) is not possible since 2007/2009.
>
> I've read (a good few of the) related e-mails from that time [1], and I
> understand that there was an important ground and a general consensus for
> that decision, despite a minority of voice disappointed by this "security
> rather than freedom" direction being taken.
>
> My humble point of view is that with the important evolution that OSM has
> experienced since back then, it would be a very good thing, if not done
> already, to revisit this issue and find a middle point which possibly was
> not easily feasible at the time but would now be more achievable. For
> instance, if I had a tick box "do not publicly link changes to my account",
> either at account level or at changeset level, but that every user still had
> the possibility to send a message to the author of such edits, and to roll
> them back (even potentially with a procedure for banning users with too much
> anonymous changes rolled back by the community, as the edits-author link is
> not lost, it's just not visible to users, whether registered or not). Then,
> I think, everyone would be happy, or close to? I mean, I think this would
> address both the concerns that led to the decision of disabling anonymous
> editing back in 2007 and the privacy concerns I summarised above.
>
> (At the time it was also mentioned that OSM is all about being a community
> project, and that it was probably inconsistent to allow anonymous
> contributions in that context. In particular, a comparison with Wikipedia
> was made. My opinion on this is that location-related information are in
> general much more privacy-critical than Wikipedia edits are, in particular
> now that you have user-friendly mobile apps for mapping on the go, and
> therefore the comparison is inappropriate.)
>
> I've been looking a bit around to see if there was a plan for developing
> something like that anytime soon, or if it had been implemented already, but
> I couldn't find. I've mailed the support team, who confirmed there is
> currently no way (other than closing an account) to make edits become
> anonymous.
>
> Therefore I'm afraid the only way forward I see to address my concerns is
> the following:
> 1) on the one hand having my past accounts deleted, for the corresponding
> change-sets not to be linked any more to my name or pseudonym. I got that
> done today.
> 2) on the other hand, from now on, to periodically create and abandon
> accounts for keeping editing without a massive correlation of data being too
> easily possible (but even like that it's an unperfect tradeoff).
>
> I'm not sure how much of the community is having concerns similar to mine,
> but I would guess that these can only have gone bigger and bigger since back
> in 2007. As said above, I believe it would be worth having a think about it
> again. (But maybe it has already been discussed again recently, and I didn't
> find out?)
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Looking forward,
>
> Jibix
>
> [1]:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2007-October/thread.html#18853
>
> --
> Jibix
> favourite webpage of the moment:
> https://degooglisons-internet.org/alternatives?l=en
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Privacy concerns - revive some sort of anonymous editing?

2018-03-01 Thread Toby Murray 
Not to rain on your account deletion party... but it may be doing less
than you think. User names get replicated out to anyone who consumes
OSM data. It is in the weekly planet dump files as well as all the
minutely/hourly/daily replication diff files. So your old (now
deleted) user name and your edits are still recorded in thousands of
databases across the globe. I have one on my own computer at home
actually. I use it to help analyze potential vandalism edits as
Frederik talked about.

Toby


On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Jibix  wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> I've been a contributor of OpenStreetMap for a few year, with a couple of
> different accounts. I got them deleted today and I though it could be
> worthwhile talking about this here.
>
> In our current era of big data, I have been more and more concerned about
> having all my osm edits publicly linked to my profiles, and these profiles
> publicly listing all these positions and places where I've been, also with
> somehow time information and sometimes comments, etc... visible forever by
> anyone, or any bot. I've looked into making the link between all that data
> not publicly visible, but it seems the functionality there use to be for
> that (anonymous editing) is not possible since 2007/2009.
>
> I've read (a good few of the) related e-mails from that time [1], and I
> understand that there was an important ground and a general consensus for
> that decision, despite a minority of voice disappointed by this "security
> rather than freedom" direction being taken.
>
> My humble point of view is that with the important evolution that OSM has
> experienced since back then, it would be a very good thing, if not done
> already, to revisit this issue and find a middle point which possibly was
> not easily feasible at the time but would now be more achievable. For
> instance, if I had a tick box "do not publicly link changes to my account",
> either at account level or at changeset level, but that every user still had
> the possibility to send a message to the author of such edits, and to roll
> them back (even potentially with a procedure for banning users with too much
> anonymous changes rolled back by the community, as the edits-author link is
> not lost, it's just not visible to users, whether registered or not). Then,
> I think, everyone would be happy, or close to? I mean, I think this would
> address both the concerns that led to the decision of disabling anonymous
> editing back in 2007 and the privacy concerns I summarised above.
>
> (At the time it was also mentioned that OSM is all about being a community
> project, and that it was probably inconsistent to allow anonymous
> contributions in that context. In particular, a comparison with Wikipedia
> was made. My opinion on this is that location-related information are in
> general much more privacy-critical than Wikipedia edits are, in particular
> now that you have user-friendly mobile apps for mapping on the go, and
> therefore the comparison is inappropriate.)
>
> I've been looking a bit around to see if there was a plan for developing
> something like that anytime soon, or if it had been implemented already, but
> I couldn't find. I've mailed the support team, who confirmed there is
> currently no way (other than closing an account) to make edits become
> anonymous.
>
> Therefore I'm afraid the only way forward I see to address my concerns is
> the following:
> 1) on the one hand having my past accounts deleted, for the corresponding
> change-sets not to be linked any more to my name or pseudonym. I got that
> done today.
> 2) on the other hand, from now on, to periodically create and abandon
> accounts for keeping editing without a massive correlation of data being too
> easily possible (but even like that it's an unperfect tradeoff).
>
> I'm not sure how much of the community is having concerns similar to mine,
> but I would guess that these can only have gone bigger and bigger since back
> in 2007. As said above, I believe it would be worth having a think about it
> again. (But maybe it has already been discussed again recently, and I didn't
> find out?)
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Looking forward,
>
> Jibix
>
> [1]:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2007-October/thread.html#18853
>
> --
> Jibix
> favourite webpage of the moment:
> https://degooglisons-internet.org/alternatives?l=en
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Privacy concerns - revive some sort of anonymous editing?

2018-03-01 Thread Frederik Ramm 
Hi,

On 03/01/2018 10:35 PM, Jibix wrote:
> I've read (a good few of the) related e-mails from that time [1], and I
> understand that there was an important ground and a general consensus
> for that decision, despite a minority of voice disappointed by this
> "security rather than freedom" direction being taken.

I think you're misrepresenting it when you say "security rather than
freedom". "Accountability rather than privacy" would probably be more
correct.

> if I had a tick box "do not publicly link
> changes to my account", either at account level or at changeset level,
> but that every user still had the possibility to send a message to the
> author of such edits, and to roll them back (even potentially with a
> procedure for banning users with too much anonymous changes rolled back
> by the community, as the edits-author link is not lost, it's just not
> visible to users, whether registered or not). Then, I think, everyone
> would be happy, or close to? 

Thing is, at OSM we depend very much on the community policing itself.
It would not be feasible to have just a small group dealing with problems.

Knowing about other edits made by the same user around the same time can
give important context to judge whether something is vandalism or an
honest mistake. If we take this information away from the community, we
lose their help in quality assurance which we desperately need.

However, I think it would be possible to limit this information to "the
OSM community" i.e. everyone who has an account, and to make these
people promise that they will not abuse the data for non-OSM purposes.

This means that I can still see what you did last summer, but I wouldn't
be allowed to use that information for non-OSM-related purposes.

This is a weak protection but I don't see how we can allow stronger
protection without employing a huge, privileged QA task force that has
access to user information and can therefore judge better.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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