Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-28 Thread Alexander Hall
On 03/27/13 21:14, Creamy wrote: On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 08:05:47PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: Or are you just trolling for the sake of it? I didn't expect that from you, frankly. Other people have been rude to me off-list, but I thought you were above that. You make some valid points,

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-28 Thread Alexey E. Suslikov
Nick Holland nick at holland-consulting.net writes: There is a lot of ISA stuff I'd object to removing from the kernel; none of this is it. I'm entirely ok with this stuff going... How about this one? ie0 at isa? port 0x360 iomem 0xd irq 7 # StarLAN and 3C507 Looking at

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-28 Thread Franco Fichtner
On 28.03.2013, at 13:17, Daniel Bolgheroni dan...@bolgh.eng.br wrote: On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 05:46:30AM +, Miod Vallat wrote: You can't say in substance it's a pity OpenBSD doesn't support the VAX 11/780 anymore in one mail, you guys really ought to ditch floppy installation media in

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-28 Thread Stuart Henderson
please everyone, move this to misc@ if you want to continue, or just drop the thread.

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Creamy
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:50:40PM +0400, Franco Fichtner wrote: Nobody in their right mind would have such a system as mission critical infrastructure. :) What, like using a Honeywell 316 as a nuclear power station reactor temperature monitor in to the early 2000s, until it's hard disk failed?

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Creamy
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 09:00:39PM +0400, Franco Fichtner wrote: On Mar 26, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Creamy cre...@nocrater.com wrote: but I honestly question the utility of any of these ISA network and SCSI drivers. Perhaps somebody who is new to coding might be able to learn something

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Stuart Henderson
On 2013/03/26 18:06, Creamy wrote: On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 09:00:39PM +0400, Franco Fichtner wrote: On Mar 26, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Creamy cre...@nocrater.com wrote: Looking to the future, when are we going to drop 486 support, anyway? Now, that's a more interesting thing ask. How much

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Creamy
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:43:53AM +, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2013/03/26 18:06, Creamy wrote: On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 09:00:39PM +0400, Franco Fichtner wrote: On Mar 26, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Creamy cre...@nocrater.com wrote: Looking to the future, when are we going to drop 486

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Creamy
Hi, Please, don't do this. What exactly? You quoted my entire mail, but didn't narrow down exactly which of my suggestions would cause problems for you. I've jumped from OpenBSD to NetBSD boat when SCSI driver were rewritten to the new version (between 3.1-stable and 3.2-stable), and my

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Miod Vallat
In fact, to everybody else who is reading this, doesn't it just point out that 486 support is, effectively, already broken, (as I suspected), because the devices that typically go with machines of that era are suffering bit-rot in the tree? Absolutely not. First, 80486 support is not broken

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Alexey Suslikov
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr wrote: Not sure about ancient 3Com's, but they are Ethernet at least, in contract to Token-Ring device like tr*. Do we support Token-Ring? We used to, on TRopic boards, but since public documentation for TR hardware amounts to

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Miod Vallat
Do we support Token-Ring? We used to, on TRopic boards, but since public documentation for TR hardware amounts to zilch, and there is no interest in changing this situation, it was eventually removed from the tree to clear the way of other changes. And with no TR stack, is there any

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Miod Vallat
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 08:05:47PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: In fact, to everybody else who is reading this, doesn't it just point out that 486 support is, effectively, already broken, (as I suspected), because the devices that typically go with machines of that era are suffering

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Creamy
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 08:05:47PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: In fact, to everybody else who is reading this, doesn't it just point out that 486 support is, effectively, already broken, (as I suspected), because the devices that typically go with machines of that era are suffering bit-rot

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Creamy
Soekris NET4501 are still in use, and they are based upon 80486 cores. `Key' ISA devices such as wdc are still heavily tested as pcmcia or such attachments on i386 and non-i386 platforms. Other devices such as com(4), pckbc(4), still exist on many systems, even if they are no longer on

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Chuck Guzis
On 03/27/2013 01:01 PM, Creamy wrote: Or, more realistically, perhaps you could just choose to maintain the -patch branch of a particular version that was of interest to you. For example, if we stopped supporting 486 in 6.0, by way of example, what is to stop you taking 6.0 and maintaining a

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Kenneth R Westerback
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 08:14:20PM +, Creamy wrote: On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 08:05:47PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: In fact, to everybody else who is reading this, doesn't it just point out that 486 support is, effectively, already broken, (as I suspected), because the devices that

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Miod Vallat
What you're suggesting is a small part of the ISA code in the tree. I did not want to list all isa drivers which happen to be tested a few times every year either. ...and note that I've been working on the pckbc code for the last couple of weeks, so I should be fully aware of it's existance.

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Alexey Suslikov
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr wrote: Do we support Token-Ring? We used to, on TRopic boards, but since public documentation for TR hardware amounts to zilch, and there is no interest in changing this situation, it was eventually removed from the tree to

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Chris Cappuccio
Creamy [cre...@nocrater.com] wrote: Miod, you seem like an all-right bloke, and I don't want to create bad feelings, but you're insulting me on a public mailing list, because I dare to bring up something you object to. Other people have been rude to me in private mail, because my views

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Theo de Raadt
Don't forget, though, this *is* open source. If the project officially drops support for anything you like, ultimately you are free to fork it. It is. And we are the developers, and you are not. So put a sock in it.

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Theo de Raadt
Really, this community has an attitude problem - and you *need* more developers, believe me, you shouldn't be trying to scare them away. You're right. We need more developers. What we don't need is more people who have the time to send 25 long opinionated rants to our mailing lists. So put

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Kevin Chadwick
On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 19:24:49 + Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: However, I would be glad if the 486 support was kept as I have many 486 systems that I would like to be able to use if I ever get around to porting the ethernet driver (which is open source). Oops, just checked and

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Nick Holland
my thoughts inline... On 03/26/13 05:20, Ted Unangst wrote: These isa devs are already disabled and not particularly popular among our users. affected: tcic, sea, wds, eg, el Index: arch/i386/conf/GENERIC === RCS file:

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-27 Thread Miod Vallat
I did not want to list all isa drivers which happen to be tested a few times every year either. OK, put it this way, there are at least some of the ISA drivers which people are not using on a regular basis, and they are broken as a result of that. Agree or not? We've *seen* examples of

goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Ted Unangst
These isa devs are already disabled and not particularly popular among our users. affected: tcic, sea, wds, eg, el Index: arch/i386/conf/GENERIC === RCS file: /cvs/src/sys/arch/i386/conf/GENERIC,v retrieving revision 1.744 diff -u

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Mark Kettenis
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:20:27 -0400 From: Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com These isa devs are already disabled and not particularly popular among our users. affected: tcic, sea, wds, eg, el The reason these devices are disabled is probably that their probe routines are destructive. So

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Ted Unangst
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:13, Mark Kettenis wrote: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:20:27 -0400 From: Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com These isa devs are already disabled and not particularly popular among our users. affected: tcic, sea, wds, eg, el The reason these devices are disabled is

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Loganaden Velvindron
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:13, Mark Kettenis wrote: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:20:27 -0400 From: Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com These isa devs are already disabled and not particularly popular among our users. affected:

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Kenneth R Westerback
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 09:09:14AM -0400, Ted Unangst wrote: On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:13, Mark Kettenis wrote: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:20:27 -0400 From: Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com These isa devs are already disabled and not particularly popular among our users. affected: tcic,

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Ted Unangst
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 14:26, Creamy wrote: but I honestly question the utility of any of these ISA network and SCSI drivers. Perhaps somebody who is new to coding might be able to learn something from them? The last thing this world needs is more programmers who learned to code by

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Mark Kettenis
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 09:09:14 -0400 From: Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:13, Mark Kettenis wrote: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:20:27 -0400 From: Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com These isa devs are already disabled and not particularly popular among our

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Creamy
Sorry, but I think there is some seriously strange reasoning going on here. It's not so much that we spend time maintaining the source, but I do spend time compiling it. Err, don't you use a custom kernel configuration? Unless you're working on those drivers, why are you compiling them in

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Todd T. Fries
Penned by Ted Unangst on 20130326 8:09.14, we have: | On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:13, Mark Kettenis wrote: | Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:20:27 -0400 | From: Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com | | These isa devs are already disabled and not particularly popular among | our users. affected: tcic,

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Miod Vallat
These isa devs are already disabled and not particularly popular among our users. affected: tcic, sea, wds, eg, el No objection against removing them from kernel configs (or commenting them out), but keep files.isa unchanged please.

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Franco Fichtner
On Mar 26, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Creamy cre...@nocrater.com wrote: but I honestly question the utility of any of these ISA network and SCSI drivers. Perhaps somebody who is new to coding might be able to learn something from them? There is such a vast amount of code in the different BSD

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Theo de Raadt
I really don't see the point of removing these from the tree. I just don't see greater value from removal, vs retention. Sure you can remove their compilation in GENERIC by #'ing them there. That I can understand. But if you remove the lines, noone can ever use them again because they won't

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Theo de Raadt
I don't think maintaining these drivers is currently a huge burden on us. But decoupling them from the build will almost certainly lead to some degree of bitrot. This 2nd sentence is the truth. At least when something is coupled to the build, it might warn us of the unintended consequences

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Alexey E. Suslikov
Todd T. Fries todd at fries.net writes: I'd wager a bet that I could make my sea(4) scsi adapter work more reliably than any variant of usb wi(4), so perhaps we should disable usb wi(4) to save you time building instead? My 2 cents. Nuke tcic0 *and* pcic*: * searching archives bring dmesgs

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Alexey E. Suslikov
Alexey E. Suslikov alexey.suslikov at gmail.com writes: Not sure about ancient 3Com's, but they are Ethernet at least, in contract to Token-Ring device like tr*. Do we support Token-Ring? Joystick driver?

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Ted Unangst
If I'm testing hardware support and such, I'm going to want to get thorough coverage of the drivers we build and purport to support. Next time mail in your dmesg! :) I'd wager a bet that I could make my sea(4) scsi adapter work more reliably than any variant of usb wi(4), so perhaps we

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Franco Fichtner
On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:06 PM, Creamy cre...@nocrater.com wrote: Looking to the future, when are we going to drop 486 support, anyway? Now, that's a more interesting thing ask. How much of the hardware survives now, anyway? I mean at least the old Vaxen were, (and are), maintainable. 486

Re: goodbye to some isa devices

2013-03-26 Thread Franco Fichtner
On Mar 26, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Creamy cre...@nocrater.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:50:40PM +0400, Franco Fichtner wrote: Nobody in their right mind would have such a system as mission critical infrastructure. :) What, like using a Honeywell 316 as a nuclear power station reactor