Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 16:48 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: On 04/18/2012 04:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. Why not? In F16, it was mounted. In Windows, it's mounted. In Mac OS, it's mounted. Why should F17 behave differently from F17 and from every other mainstream OS people are familiar with? What is the justification for this different, unexpected, non-intuitive behavior? The arguments are really going downhill here. I'm not overly interested in wading into this, but I'll just say that whenever we do something automatically, somebody will get mad. In the past, auto-mounting (and even just automatically sniffing) of media has been construed as a security issue.. How hard would it be to make the behaviour configurable? Should removable devices attached before boot be mounted before login? Should removable devices attached after boot be mounted before login? Should removable devices attached during a session be mounted automatically? Should removable devices mounted during a session be mounted in a user-specific location? The behaviour for non-removable devices, e.g. partitions, is somewhat configurable. Which partitions are mounted at boot time is determined by options given during install. -- Michael henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu On Monday, I'm gonna have to tell my kindergarten class, whom I teach not to run with scissors, that my fiance ran me through with a broadsword. -- Lily -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
2012/4/19 Michael Hennebry henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 16:48 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: On 04/18/2012 04:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. Why not? In F16, it was mounted. In Windows, it's mounted. In Mac OS, it's mounted. Why should F17 behave differently from F17 and from every other mainstream OS people are familiar with? What is the justification for this different, unexpected, non-intuitive behavior? The arguments are really going downhill here. I'm not overly interested in wading into this, but I'll just say that whenever we do something automatically, somebody will get mad. In the past, auto-mounting (and even just automatically sniffing) of media has been construed as a security issue.. How hard would it be to make the behaviour configurable? Should removable devices attached before boot be mounted before login? Should removable devices attached after boot be mounted before login? Should removable devices attached during a session be mounted automatically? Should removable devices mounted during a session be mounted in a user-specific location? The behaviour for non-removable devices, e.g. partitions, is somewhat configurable. Which partitions are mounted at boot time is determined by options given during install. one possible starting point is to mount any removable device as a neutral user (nobody?) with read only access for everybody, *if* there's no other user logged into a X session. in this way, a network server can still offer the files without creating unneeded security risks implied by mounting as any particular real user (like root). the fstab workaround can work but imagine a fstab with as many lines as removable devices a user has (think how many optical disks, as an example.) -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 10:23 +0200, Stijn Hoop wrote: 2. I have a plugged-in USB disk and I am at the physical console however I need to find the name of my USB disk in the folder list and click on it before I can use any files on it This is what I personally object to, and I suspect Jonathan does as well. It is a) inconsistent with other operating systems, at least Windows and Mac OS X. b) inconsistent with previous Fedora releases c) not by any means more secure for multi users since you need physical access to the machine to plug in a USB stick / insert a CD anyway So what are the real reasons for behavioural aspect #2, and was this design tested on users? Where is the rationale? Yeah, I'm honestly not a huge fan of this one either. It bugs me frequently. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 12:15 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: OK, so I took a look at the GNOME Disks utility, which I was finally able to get to run without crashing, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't resolve my main complaint with the new F17 behavior. Yes, I can use the Disks utility to configure removable devices, e.g., my DVD drive, to mount on startup. But then it isn't going to mount in /run/media/$USER, because there's no user logged in yet. My concern, which I've explained repeatedly and I believe is quite legitimate despite all of the flak I've taken for it here, is that the behavior of a removable device that is already inserted when I log in should be exactly the same as the behavior of a removable device that I insert after logging in. As far as I can tell the Disks utility can't achieve that. If I'm wrong, please explain to me exactly how I should configure, e.g., my DVD drive in the Disks utility so that if there's a DVD in the drive when I log in, it will be mounted under /run/media/$USER automatically. (And, while you're at it, explain to me why this shouldn't be the default behavior, which I've yet to see anyone here explain, as far as I recall.) If you set a specific mount location for a device in that tool - i.e. in fstab - it will be used even if the device is connected after login. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On 04/18/2012 01:06 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: If you set a specific mount location for a device in that tool - i.e. in fstab - it will be used even if the device is connected after login. Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's not what I want. If it is the position of the Fedora developers that /run/media/$USER is the right place for stuff to be mounted, and I don't have a particular problem with that decision, then I want /that/ behavior, i.e., the behavior that the developers think is correct, /with/ the F16 behavior of the device being mounted automatically when I log in. Why /shouldn't/ it act that way? jik -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 13:10 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's not what I want. If it is the position of the Fedora developers that /run/media/$USER is the right place for stuff to be mounted, and I don't have a particular problem with that decision, then I want that behavior, i.e., the behavior that the developers think is correct, with the F16 behavior of the device being mounted automatically when I log in. Why shouldn't it act that way? Oh, I see. I don't know about that. I don't know if there's a way to make GNOME mount devices on login rather than on access. I think that's a GNOME policy question rather than a udisks one. It may be worth asking on the desktop list. Matthias, are you reading this? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
Three use cases in which in my opinion the behavior is clearly incorrect: Case 1: 1. Put DVD in drive while logged in. DVD is mounted. 2. Reboot computer and log back in. DVD is not mounted. It should be. Case 2: 1. Put DVD in drive before logging in. DVD is not mounted. 2. Log in. DVD is not mounted. It should be. Case 3: 1. Put DVD in drive while logged in. DVD is mounted. 2. Log out. DVD stays mounted under /run/media/$USER. It should have been unmounted when you logged out. 3. Log back in as another user. DVD is still mounted under /run/media//previous-$USER/. It should have been remounted under your $USER. jik On 04/18/2012 02:40 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Adam Williamson (awill...@redhat.com) said: On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 13:10 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's not what I want. If it is the position of the Fedora developers that /run/media/$USER is the right place for stuff to be mounted, and I don't have a particular problem with that decision, then I want that behavior, i.e., the behavior that the developers think is correct, with the F16 behavior of the device being mounted automatically when I log in. Why shouldn't it act that way? Oh, I see. I don't know about that. I don't know if there's a way to make GNOME mount devices on login rather than on access. I think that's a GNOME policy question rather than a udisks one. It may be worth asking on the desktop list. Matthias, are you reading this? So, I'm a bit confused. I tried to reproduce this with a USB stick today. If I plug it in while I'm logged in, it shows up. I log out and log back in, and it still shows up. If I reboot, plug it in during GDM, and then log in... it shows up. Under what circumstance does it not show up for you? Bill -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
If I plug it in while I'm logged in, it shows up. I log out and log back in, and it still shows up. If I reboot, plug it in during GDM, and then log in... it shows up. Under what circumstance does it not show up for you? If your USB stick is plugged in before you boot your system, where does it show up? Nowhere. The device node is created (/dev/sd...) but it is not mounted. (Yes, I believe an entry in /etc/fstab will help in some cirsumstances.) Root can mount the device, but behavior then varies. Mount over /x is normal but mount over /home/desktop user/x causes the Gnome desktop to pop up a menu that offers: Open with files or Eject. Eject will only work after authentication (quite proper - the device was mounted by root) whereas automatic mount over /run/media/desktop user/label allows the user to Eject without authentication. None of this is intrinsically terrible, but there is a surfeit of different behaviors that will likely confuse many users at one time or another. This feels like a consensus issue: with no agreed strategy about what should happen, programmers wrote whatever seemed appropriate for the case they were coding. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
Richard Ryniker (ryni...@alum.mit.edu) said: If I plug it in while I'm logged in, it shows up. I log out and log back in, and it still shows up. If I reboot, plug it in during GDM, and then log in... it shows up. Under what circumstance does it not show up for you? Aha, for this last one it's a timing issue... if it scans slow enough that it 'appears' during the session, it will be mounted. If your USB stick is plugged in before you boot your system, where does it show up? Nowhere. The device node is created (/dev/sd...) but it is not mounted. (Yes, I believe an entry in /etc/fstab will help in some cirsumstances.) It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. Bill -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On 04/18/2012 04:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. Why not? In F16, it was mounted. In Windows, it's mounted. In Mac OS, it's mounted. Why should F17 behave differently from F17 and from every other mainstream OS people are familiar with? What is the justification for this different, unexpected, non-intuitive behavior? jik -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Jonathan Kamens j...@kamens.us wrote: On 04/18/2012 04:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. Why not? In F16, it was mounted. In Windows, it's mounted. In Mac OS, it's mounted. Why should F17 behave differently from F17 and from every other mainstream OS people are familiar with? What is the justification for this different, unexpected, non-intuitive behavior? It got fixed / reverted: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gvfs/commit/?id=e30a67f3215 -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 14:40 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: Adam Williamson (awill...@redhat.com) said: On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 13:10 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's not what I want. If it is the position of the Fedora developers that /run/media/$USER is the right place for stuff to be mounted, and I don't have a particular problem with that decision, then I want that behavior, i.e., the behavior that the developers think is correct, with the F16 behavior of the device being mounted automatically when I log in. Why shouldn't it act that way? Oh, I see. I don't know about that. I don't know if there's a way to make GNOME mount devices on login rather than on access. I think that's a GNOME policy question rather than a udisks one. It may be worth asking on the desktop list. Matthias, are you reading this? So, I'm a bit confused. I tried to reproduce this with a USB stick today. If I plug it in while I'm logged in, it shows up. I log out and log back in, and it still shows up. If I reboot, plug it in during GDM, and then log in... it shows up. Under what circumstance does it not show up for you? The problem is with the definition of 'shows up'. GNOME will show such devices in Nautilus, file chooser etc, but it doesn't actually automount until you try to access it through such a graphical app. So you can't access it through the terminal unless you mount it manually or go click on it in Nautilus to get it mounted first. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 16:48 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: On 04/18/2012 04:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. Why not? In F16, it was mounted. In Windows, it's mounted. In Mac OS, it's mounted. Why should F17 behave differently from F17 and from every other mainstream OS people are familiar with? What is the justification for this different, unexpected, non-intuitive behavior? The arguments are really going downhill here. I'm not overly interested in wading into this, but I'll just say that whenever we do something automatically, somebody will get mad. In the past, auto-mounting (and even just automatically sniffing) of media has been construed as a security issue.. Anyway, http://git.gnome.org/browse/gvfs/commit/?id=e30a67f3215d829e95ee7e358c67af7d67635fe8 -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 21:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: The arguments are really going downhill here. I'm not overly interested in wading into this, but I'll just say that whenever we do something automatically, somebody will get mad. In the past, auto-mounting (and even just automatically sniffing) of media has been construed as a security issue.. Anyway, http://git.gnome.org/browse/gvfs/commit/?id=e30a67f3215d829e95ee7e358c67af7d67635fe8 Honestly, I'm not sure there's any difference at all between 'mount on attach' and 'mount on any attempt to access' from a security POV. I think the decision to change this was a good one, and I doubt it'll make many people unhappy - and as several commenters have pointed out, it's only in line with what every other OS we can think of does by default, and what Fedora / GNOME has always done in the past. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 03:26 +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 21:38 -0400, Ma Honestly, I'm not sure there's any difference at all between 'mount on attach' and 'mount on any attempt to access' from a security POV. http://git.gnome.org/browse/gvfs/commit/?id=e30a67f3215d829e95ee7e358c67af7d67635fe8 is an example for the kind of unhappiness you get - and there's also very little difference between doing something automatically while the screen is locked or doing something automatically with an already plugged in device on login or unlock. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 12:50 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: FWIW, as KDE user I'm happy to note that this seems to be a GNOME thing. :-) The KDE automount framework hasn't been ported to udisks2 yet. It's still using udisks. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Fri, 2012-04-13 at 14:05 -0500, Steven Stern wrote: This behavior messes up a bunch of scripts I've written that assume the external USB drive MyBackupDrive will be hooked up as /media/MyBackupDrive no matter who's logged in when it's plugged in. Phooey. Just put an entry in /etc/fstab . udisks respects any configuration found in /etc/fstab; if there's a line there for the disk it's about to mount, it will mount it in the location specified. So just: /dev/disk/by-label/MyBackupDrive /media/MyBackupDrive ext4 defaults1 2 should do the trick fine. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 09:42 -0600, Pete wrote: On 04/13/2012 07:48 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Ankur Sinha (sanjay.an...@gmail.com) said: On Fri, 2012-04-13 at 19:09 +0530, Ankur Sinha wrote: Hello, I just got into F17 today. It looks great. I do have one tiny query though: my USB media, and other partitions that I mount on-demand are no longer showing up in /media. They show up in /run/media/$USER. Can anyone shed some light on this? Where is this move documented for instance? I've looked at the new FHS[1] which doesn't appear to hold anything on this. [1] http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html It looks like it's related to udisks2[1]. This needs to be documented someplace IMO. Thoughts? Release notes seem fine. Basically, removable media mounted in the user's session are now mounted in a user-specific directory. Bill Thanks for bringing this up, I've just added it to the release notes. Where, exactly? The two most obvious beats, to me, are: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/FileSystems https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Beats/Desktop But I see nothing in either... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
snippy Or perhaps the system could keep track of mounted devices and when the computer enters the same state as it was in when the device was previously mounted, mount it again automatically. In other words, If device x is mounted for $USER, and $USER logs out or the system reboots while the device is still mounted, and the same device is still available the next time $USER logs in, then remount it in the same place it was mounted before. That would be both intuitive and useful behavior. The current behavior is neither. It's also not like the behavior of any other OS of which I'm aware. Note that you should be able to configure static mounts of a cd with something like: I am not talking about static mounts. I'm talking about if I have a removable device inserted / plugged in / whatever, then when I log in, I should see it. This is what users expect. Period. Bugzillad: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=813069 jik I just dug in. You can use the disks utility in gnome3 to mark your partitions/drives as automount. This also lets you specify where you want to mount them, properties etc. I think this should be somewhere in the release notes too. The GUI basically adds the entries according to your configuration to fstab, nothing special :) -- Thanks, Regards, Ankur: FranciscoD http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha http://dodoincfedora.wordpress.com/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 19:42 +0530, Ankur Sinha wrote: I just dug in. You can use the disks utility in gnome3 to mark your partitions/drives as automount. This also lets you specify where you want to mount them, properties etc. I think this should be somewhere in the release notes too. The GUI basically adds the entries according to your configuration to fstab, nothing special :) Yeah, I wanted to add that to the release notes, which is why I asked Pete exactly where he edited them. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On 04/17/2012 10:12 AM, Ankur Sinha wrote: I just dug in. You can use the disks utility in gnome3 to mark your partitions/drives as automount. This also lets you specify where you want to mount them, properties etc. Would love to give that a try. Unfortunately, it coredumps for me on startup. And for others as well, apparently: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=812011 jik -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Fri, 2012-04-13 at 18:28 -0400, Al Dunsmuir wrote: O This behavior messes up a bunch of scripts I've written that assume the external USB drive MyBackupDrive will be hooked up as /media/MyBackupDrive no matter who's logged in when it's plugged in. Phooey. That ain't all that will get hosed. Wine has been confused about optical drives for awhile now and won't be getting better with this additional change. Deferring things until first logon only makes sense if there actually is a logon. That is an unwarranted design assumption - too many it must be a single user desktop assumptions/bias. I think this change is a wonderful option. Especially as the work on true multi-head gets closer to being useful. In that sort of scenario it will be great. But have to agree that it isn't the typical use case and should not drive the choice for the default behavior. If something like this is going to work for everyone there should be a way to pick on a per device or port basis how the device should be handled. So the system optical drive can be assigned to the user on seat 0 or be hard assigned to show up at a constant location. The USB ports on the hub with the second user's keyboard and mouse go to that user's desktop, etc. And then you could reserve a USB port or two for the system, to always give consistent names to the backup drives. Since the vast majority of systems are single user machines or servers the old UNIX ways should be the default since they work best for those typical usages. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 14:54 -0500, John Morris wrote: If something like this is going to work for everyone there should be a way to pick on a per device or port basis how the device should be handled. There is, and has been for decades. It's called /etc/fstab . Really, seriously: whether we were on automount or gnome-mount or hal or DeviceKit or udisks or udisks2 or something else I've successfully drunk out of my memory, the answer to 'how do I make it get handled some way other than the automounter's default' has _always_ been 'put a line in /etc/fstab which explains what you want to happen'. (The exception, I think, is that KDE didn't properly respect all fstab settings, at least at some point in history; I don't know if that still holds). udisks2 does not change this. It doesn't change the format or function of /etc/fstab. If you want things to happen differently from how udisks2 does them by default, express this in /etc/fstab, and udisks2 will respect it. As it has for decades, fstab has options that handily express 'mount this at boot', 'never mount this automatically', 'mount this in this specific location' and so on and so forth. If you don't think udisks2 is correctly respecting a setting in /etc/fstab, I believe this should be considered a bug and reported. I've mentioned it elsewhere in this thread, but if you need a reliable way to identify a specific removable storage device in /etc/fstab, you can use the /dev/disk/by-* directory tree and this will be interpreted just fine - you can create an fstab entry for /dev/disk/by-label/SomeDiskLabel and any disk with that label will be mounted in the way specified, or for /dev/disk/by-uuid/SomeUUID and any disk with that UUID will be mounted in the way specified, and so on and so forth. Since the vast majority of systems are single user machines or servers the old UNIX ways should be the default since they work best for those typical usages. I don't think anyone would contest that /etc/fstab is a very old UNIX way of doing things. =) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Tue, 2012-04-17 at 14:54 -0500, John Morris wrote: If something like this is going to work for everyone there should be a way to pick on a per device or port basis how the device should be handled. There is, and has been for decades. It's called /etc/fstab . Really, seriously: whether we were on automount or gnome-mount or hal or DeviceKit or udisks or udisks2 or something else I've successfully drunk out of my memory, the answer to 'how do I make it get handled some way other than the automounter's default' has _always_ been 'put a line in /etc/fstab which explains what you want to happen'. (The exception, I think, is that KDE didn't properly respect all fstab settings, at least at some point in history; I don't know if that still holds). udisks2 does not change this. It doesn't change the format or function of /etc/fstab. If you want things to happen differently from how udisks2 does them by default, express this in /etc/fstab, and udisks2 will respect it. As it has for decades, fstab has options that handily express 'mount this at boot', 'never mount this automatically', 'mount this in this specific location' and so on and so forth. If you don't think udisks2 is correctly respecting a setting in /etc/fstab, I believe this should be considered a bug and reported. I've mentioned it elsewhere in this thread, but if you need a reliable way to identify a specific removable storage device in /etc/fstab, you can use the /dev/disk/by-* directory tree and this will be interpreted just fine - you can create an fstab entry for /dev/disk/by-label/SomeDiskLabel and any disk with that label will be mounted in the way specified, or for /dev/disk/by-uuid/SomeUUID and any disk with that UUID will be mounted in the way specified, and so on and so forth. Since the vast majority of systems are single user machines or servers the old UNIX ways should be the default since they work best for those typical usages. I don't think anyone would contest that /etc/fstab is a very old UNIX way of doing things. =) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On 04/13/2012 07:48 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Ankur Sinha (sanjay.an...@gmail.com) said: On Fri, 2012-04-13 at 19:09 +0530, Ankur Sinha wrote: Hello, I just got into F17 today. It looks great. I do have one tiny query though: my USB media, and other partitions that I mount on-demand are no longer showing up in /media. They show up in /run/media/$USER. Can anyone shed some light on this? Where is this move documented for instance? I've looked at the new FHS[1] which doesn't appear to hold anything on this. [1] http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html It looks like it's related to udisks2[1]. This needs to be documented someplace IMO. Thoughts? Release notes seem fine. Basically, removable media mounted in the user's session are now mounted in a user-specific directory. Bill Thanks for bringing this up, I've just added it to the release notes. --pete -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
Jonathan Kamens (j...@kamens.us) said: It is absurdly unpredictable that if I stick a DVD in my drive after logging in, it is mounted underneath /run/media/$USER, but if my computer than crashes, or I reboot it by hand, and I log in immediately after the reboot, that DVD is no longer mounted. Independent of whether the move from /media to /run/media/$USER is a good idea, and I'm reserving judgment on that, clearly the behavior I just described above is entirely unexpected by the user and therefore wrong. The alternative here would be... it magically gets mounted by the first user? That's a bit odd, as well. Note that you should be able to configure static mounts of a cd with something like: /lib/systemd/system/media-cd.mount: [Unit] Description=My CD [Mount] What=/dev/disk/by-path/somewhere/somehow/ Where=/media/cd Bill Bill -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On 4/16/2012 2:09 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Jonathan Kamens (j...@kamens.us) said: It is absurdly unpredictable that if I stick a DVD in my drive after logging in, it is mounted underneath /run/media/$USER, but if my computer than crashes, or I reboot it by hand, and I log in immediately after the reboot, that DVD is no longer mounted. Independent of whether the move from /media to /run/media/$USER is a good idea, and I'm reserving judgment on that, clearly the behavior I just described above is entirely unexpected by the user and therefore wrong. The alternative here would be... it magically gets mounted by the first user? That's a bit odd, as well. Oh, I don't know, maybe the alternative would be to mount devices under /media instead of /run/media/$USER? Seriously. Or perhaps the system could keep track of mounted devices and when the computer enters the same state as it was in when the device was previously mounted, mount it again automatically. In other words, If device x is mounted for $USER, and $USER logs out or the system reboots while the device is still mounted, and the same device is still available the next time $USER logs in, then remount it in the same place it was mounted before. That would be both intuitive and useful behavior. The current behavior is neither. It's also not like the behavior of any other OS of which I'm aware. Note that you should be able to configure static mounts of a cd with something like: I am not talking about static mounts. I'm talking about if I have a removable device inserted / plugged in / whatever, then when I log in, I should see it. This is what users expect. Period. Bugzillad: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=813069 jik -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On 04/13/2012 09:39 PM, Ankur Sinha wrote: Hello, I just got into F17 today. It looks great. I do have one tiny query though: my USB media, and other partitions that I mount on-demand are no longer showing up in /media. They show up in /run/media/$USER. Can anyone shed some light on this? Where is this move documented for instance? I've looked at the new FHS[1] which doesn't appear to hold anything on this. [1] http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html FWIW, as KDE user I'm happy to note that this seems to be a GNOME thing. :-) -- Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century. -- Dame Edna Everage -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Fri, 2012-04-13 at 14:05 -0500, Steven Stern wrote: This behavior messes up a bunch of scripts I've written that assume the external USB drive MyBackupDrive will be hooked up as /media/MyBackupDrive no matter who's logged in when it's plugged in. Phooey. I have the same issue. Would anyone know where we can get specific details on the subject? I.e., what is going to get mounted where, in what condition? This move, while may be documented in the release notes as Bill pointed out, is going to confuse a plethora of users. I also think that this being mentioned in the release notes is not sufficient. It's a major change and deserves more visibility really. -- Thanks, Regards, Ankur: FranciscoD http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha http://dodoincfedora.wordpress.com/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 12:49:20 +0530 Ankur Sinha sanjay.an...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 2012-04-13 at 14:05 -0500, Steven Stern wrote: This behavior messes up a bunch of scripts I've written that assume the external USB drive MyBackupDrive will be hooked up as /media/MyBackupDrive no matter who's logged in when it's plugged in. Phooey. I have the same issue. Would anyone know where we can get specific details on the subject? I.e., what is going to get mounted where, in what condition? This move, while may be documented in the release notes as Bill pointed out, is going to confuse a plethora of users. I also think that this being mentioned in the release notes is not sufficient. It's a major change and deserves more visibility really. I agree. Some of our scripts will be bitten by this as well. I see the reasons why it has moved and I accept them, it's just that I failed to see any communication about it upfront. I think more people will be surprised at this change... Regards, --Stijn -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
It is absurdly unpredictable that if I stick a DVD in my drive after logging in, it is mounted underneath /run/media/$USER, but if my computer than crashes, or I reboot it by hand, and I log in immediately after the reboot, that DVD is no longer mounted. Independent of whether the move from /media to /run/media/$USER is a good idea, and I'm reserving judgment on that, clearly the behavior I just described above is entirely unexpected by the user and therefore wrong. Jonathan Kamens -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Fri, 2012-04-13 at 19:09 +0530, Ankur Sinha wrote: Hello, I just got into F17 today. It looks great. I do have one tiny query though: my USB media, and other partitions that I mount on-demand are no longer showing up in /media. They show up in /run/media/$USER. Can anyone shed some light on this? Where is this move documented for instance? I've looked at the new FHS[1] which doesn't appear to hold anything on this. [1] http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html It looks like it's related to udisks2[1]. This needs to be documented someplace IMO. Thoughts? [1] http://cgit.freedesktop.org/udisks/tree/data/org.freedesktop.UDisks2.xml?id=aa02e5fc53efdeaf66047d2ad437ed543178965b#n1094 -- Thanks, Regards, Ankur: FranciscoD http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha http://dodoincfedora.wordpress.com/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On 04/13/2012 06:48 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Release notes seem fine. Basically, removable media mounted in the user's session are now mounted in a user-specific directory. There's still a problem: cold-plugged media, or even warm-plugged media. Cold-plugged (before boot) should be mounted under /media as soon as udisks2 runs. Warm-plugged (after boot but before login) probably should be, too, although there's room for discussion regarding /media/label versus /run/media/$next_console_login/label, particularly for multi-seat operation (Plugable.com, etc.), but particularly including login on either text or graphical local console. However, they aren't recognized [mounted] at all (not even upon subsequent graphical login), and this is bad. See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=722712 where there is some argument whether udisks2 or gvfs should bear the blame. It can be handy to have a permanently mounted CD/DVD or USB2.0 flash device. -- -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
Once upon a time, Steven Stern subscribed-li...@sterndata.com said: On 04/13/2012 12:25 PM, John Reiser wrote: On 04/13/2012 06:48 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Release notes seem fine. Basically, removable media mounted in the user's session are now mounted in a user-specific directory. There's still a problem: cold-plugged media, or even warm-plugged media. Cold-plugged (before boot) should be mounted under /media as soon as udisks2 runs. Warm-plugged (after boot but before login) probably should be, too, although there's room for discussion regarding /media/label versus /run/media/$next_console_login/label, particularly for multi-seat operation (Plugable.com, etc.), but particularly including login on either text or graphical local console. However, they aren't recognized [mounted] at all (not even upon subsequent graphical login), and this is bad. See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=722712 where there is some argument whether udisks2 or gvfs should bear the blame. It can be handy to have a permanently mounted CD/DVD or USB2.0 flash device. This behavior messes up a bunch of scripts I've written that assume the external USB drive MyBackupDrive will be hooked up as /media/MyBackupDrive no matter who's logged in when it's plugged in. Phooey. Yeah, is there a way to disable this behavior? -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
However, they aren't recognized [mounted] at all (not even upon subsequent
graphical
login), and this is bad. See
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=722712
where there is some argument whether udisks2 or gvfs should bear the blame.
Cold- or warm-plugged filesystem devices do appear in
/dev/disk/{by-label,by-uuid,...}
so it seems that udev+udisks2 is acting normally. However the filesystems
do not get mounted, neither under /media/ nor /run/media/$user/ .
This might be OK if there were an easy way to change the policy,
or to request please process the cold- and warm-plugged events
as if they where hot-plugged _now_.
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Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER
On Friday, April 13, 2012, 3:05:43 PM, Steven Stern wrote: On 04/13/2012 12:25 PM, John Reiser wrote: On 04/13/2012 06:48 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: Release notes seem fine. Basically, removable media mounted in the user's session are now mounted in a user-specific directory. There's still a problem: cold-plugged media, or even warm-plugged media. Cold-plugged (before boot) should be mounted under /media as soon as udisks2 runs. Warm-plugged (after boot but before login) probably should be, too, although there's room for discussion regarding /media/label versus /run/media/$next_console_login/label, particularly for multi-seat operation (Plugable.com, etc.), but particularly including login on either text or graphical local console. However, they aren't recognized [mounted] at all (not even upon subsequent graphical login), and this is bad. See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=722712 where there is some argument whether udisks2 or gvfs should bear the blame. It can be handy to have a permanently mounted CD/DVD or USB2.0 flash device. This behavior messes up a bunch of scripts I've written that assume the external USB drive MyBackupDrive will be hooked up as /media/MyBackupDrive no matter who's logged in when it's plugged in. Phooey. It's worse. Think CD/DVD/USB shared via Samba. No one needs to be logged on in the pre-F17 scenario, but now things are totally broken. Deferring things until first logon only makes sense if there actually is a logon. That is an unwarranted design assumption - too many it must be a single user desktop assumptions/bias. Using Fedora as a small home network server just got more complex, and I smell incompatibilities coming with how folks using Fedora (or a later RHEL release) would tend to treat mounted media. With F16 I finally was able to use on-boot static addressing with NetworkManager on my Samba/DHCP/DNS small server. No more switching to to use the traditional Network service. Please keep things flexible to allow for these scenarios. Al -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
