Re: [Texascavers] A question about the rights of cavers

[Sleazeweazel via Texascavers]

--- Begin Message ---
Property ownership is an artificial construct almost as absurd  as other so 
called "rights" such as human rights. It is merely an  agreement that is 
sanctioned by society because it conforms to our  instinctive understanding of 
the territorial imperative. 
 
I am a property owner who defends "my" land because I can,  mostly through 
bluster, threat, and mere presence. I have yet to shoot  anyone which is not 
surprising since I don't own a gun. I also  defend nearby areas "owned" by 
others, and any other place I care about  such as a particular cave, river, 
population of salamanders, etc. 
 
I do not believe that any person should ever have the right to  do 
"whatever" they want to a piece of land such as clearcut an old growth  forest, 
shoot the migratory birds passing through, dam a river, or fill in  the 
entrance 
of a cave containing the only colony of a rare bat. 
 
If all someone wants is to be left alone in peace then great!  While 
trespassing I do no harm to either the place or person who claims  ownership, 
and 
you will never have to worry about me peeking into your  bedroom window. The 
fact that I am a landowning  trespasser who routinely crosses artificial 
"property" lines doesn't make me a  hypocrite, merely an anarchist who 
considers the entire world to be his  backyard. These are practical not moral 
issues. 
 
I find it particularly amusing that the concept of absolute  rights over 
the land is stronger in Texas than almost anywhere else. The entire  history 
of Texas is intertwined with that of the cow and that hearkens back to  one 
of the most fundamental conflicts in human history, the never ending  
struggle between herders and agriculturists. 
 
In the bad old daze before surveying and fences cows in  Texas had the 
"right" to range freely. The only possible method of ownership was  conferred 
through branding, then granddaddy would have to chase the cows into a  
definable herd so that they could be sold. The problem is that you can only  
eat so 
much beef, so the herd had to be moved somewhere else so that other  people 
could eat them. That somewhere else was likely Chicago where there were  
ships and railroads to carry the stinking carcasses even further abroad. 
 
It is a long ways from Texas to Chicago and the cows had to  walk. In that 
intervening distance there were lots of small farms. Barbed wire  was a new 
and expensive commodity so it was effectively impossible to keep the  cows 
out of the corn. Sometimes there were thousands of cows being driven by  
dozens of armed cowboys, none of whom had the slightest respect for so called  
"property rights". What was a poor immigrant settler to do? One guy with a 
rusty  musket against a small army of well armed Texicans? Most of the 
Westerns you  have ever seen on TV had to do with the inevitable resulting 
range 
wars that  swept the west and especially Texas.
 
As the well intentioned but fundamentally flawed concept  of democracy took 
hold it became a numbers game. In the end there will always be  more 
farmers than herders for the same reason that there must always be more  zebras 
than lions. 
 
We see the same scenario being played out today in much of  Latin America 
where big landowners with cattle routinely shoot agriculturist  squatters, 
and especially in parts of sub Saharan Africa such as the Sudan where  weather 
patterns require the annual migration of both cattle and other ungulates  
through land increasingly crowded with agriculturists. 
 
But the Texicans aren't the Sudanese, much more adaptable. Now  they have 
barbed wire and pickup trucks! They simply encircled their vast tracts  of 
otherwise worthless grazing land and decided that meant they had "property  
rights", even including the right to shoot anyone who makes the mistake of  
passing through. Talk about hypocrites!
 
So why give a damn about who "owns" a cave? Especially when  the cave 
crosses the aforementioned artificial boundaries somewhere underground  
unbeknownst to the so called "Owner"?  What they don't know won't hurt  them! 
 
Sleazeweazel 
 
 
In a message dated 7/22/2017 1:00:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
texascavers@texascavers.com writes:

 
We have probably all been in this situation: A landowner  invites you 
explore a cave on his land. You do a few trips with your caving  buds. You 
survey 
the cave. After surveying it becomes obvious that the cave  crosses under 
the property line of the neighboring landowner. Are you  trespassing if you 
continue to visit the cave and pass under the neighboring  property? Were you 
trespassing before you were aware that the cave crossed the  property line? 
Is it only trespassing when the neighbor becomes aware of the  cave and 
asks you not to traverse his part of the cave anymore?   
A related question: Does the survey data you collected of  the neighbor’s 
portion of the cave and do the pictures you took of that area  belong to you, 
or would the 

Re: [Texascavers] A question about the rights of cavers

[PRESTON FORSYTHE via Texascavers]

Similar cave land owner right cases in KY have been discussed and taken to 
court starting in the late 1800's and early 1900's.
See below these stories-cases-briefs and review on Great Onyx Cave, 3 miles 
from Mammoth Cave, Kentucky.
The history of Mammoth Cave is fascinating. I hope you can set aside some time 
to read this account, especially L.P. Edwards vs. Edmund Turner. 
A few years ago I was at Flint Ridge Baptist Church when Edmund Turner, 
namesake of the famous Turner Avenue under Flint Ridge, was given a new 
tombstone. The next time you stop by this cemetery to see Floyd Collins' final 
resting place, please visit with Edmund Turner and so many others associated 
with Mammoth Cave who are buried in that cemetery, the most famous caver 
cemetery in the world.
http://chaselaw.nku.edu/content/dam/chaselaw/docs/academics/lawreview/v40/nklr_v40n1_pp001-048.pdf


Preston Forsythe
Browder, KY 

On Saturday, July 22, 2017 1:16 AM, Terry Holsinger via Texascavers 
 wrote:
 

 Marvin, just my opinion, and only a lawyer and judge could answer a 
specific question about a specific issue/problem/case.

However any data and photos belong to "you" unless you produced them 
"for hire" then they belong to who ever hired you to produce that data.

As for someone suing you, well that can (and does) happen anytime 
someone has the money and the desire to file suit against whoever they 
want and they can do it for anything.
As to if it goes anywhere in CIVIL court is up to your lawyer and the 
judge.
It IS possible for someone to prevent/restrict a "use" of your 
data/photos IF they can prove in court that doing so will "harm" them 
is some way.

That said, IMO for it to get anywhere in court this "other" landowner 
will need to prove that the information is on their property AND was 
generated during their ownership of said property AND that you 
knowingly produced this data after being told to not trespass on that 
property AND that that landowner made a valid effort to secure and 
post their property line in a court accepted manner, fencing and 
signage being the norm AND (this may be the most important to winning 
a case) they will need to prove that your data/information in some way 
"harms" them.

In a case where the landowner does not have access to "their" cave 
either by a natural or artificial entrance they have no way of proving 
you were on their property in the first place.
Nor do they have any way of preventing your egress to/from any cave 
passage under their property.
Yes in Texas the property ownership goes from the sky above to ground 
below (mineral rights being able to be separated from and sold 
separately from the land).
Caves MIGHT be able to be classified with mineral rights IF someone 
wanted to, for example in the case of commercial use of said cave.

If I recall there is (was) a TPWD boundary sign that was placed by 
cavers in one of the side passages in Honey Creek Cave were it goes 
under the park boundary fence. Someone at TPWD had said something to 
the effect that cavers needed to stop "digging" they way they were in 
that passage under the park as that method of "digging" was not 
approved by TWPD (and that is what propmpted the placement of said 
signage).

Terry H.

On 2017-07-22 0:00, Marvin and Lisa via Texascavers wrote:
> We have probably all been in this situation: A landowner invites you
> explore a cave on his land. You do a few trips with your caving buds.
> You survey the cave. After surveying it becomes obvious that the cave
> crosses under the property line of the neighboring landowner. Are you
> trespassing if you continue to visit the cave and pass under the
> neighboring property? Were you trespassing before you were aware that
> the cave crossed the property line? Is it only trespassing when the
> neighbor becomes aware of the cave and asks you not to traverse his
> part of the cave anymore?
>
>
>
> A related question: Does the survey data you collected of the
> neighbor’s portion of the cave and do the pictures you took of that
> area belong to you, or would the neighboring landowner have standing
> to sue in court for the rights to that data?
>
>
>
> Marvin Miller
>
>
>
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
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>
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Re: [Texascavers] A question about the rights of cavers

[Terry Holsinger via Texascavers]

Marvin, just my opinion, and only a lawyer and judge could answer a 
specific question about a specific issue/problem/case.


However any data and photos belong to "you" unless you produced them 
"for hire" then they belong to who ever hired you to produce that data.


As for someone suing you, well that can (and does) happen anytime 
someone has the money and the desire to file suit against whoever they 
want and they can do it for anything.
As to if it goes anywhere in CIVIL court is up to your lawyer and the 
judge.
It IS possible for someone to prevent/restrict a "use" of your 
data/photos IF they can prove in court that doing so will "harm" them 
is some way.


That said, IMO for it to get anywhere in court this "other" landowner 
will need to prove that the information is on their property AND was 
generated during their ownership of said property AND that you 
knowingly produced this data after being told to not trespass on that 
property AND that that landowner made a valid effort to secure and 
post their property line in a court accepted manner, fencing and 
signage being the norm AND (this may be the most important to winning 
a case) they will need to prove that your data/information in some way 
"harms" them.


In a case where the landowner does not have access to "their" cave 
either by a natural or artificial entrance they have no way of proving 
you were on their property in the first place.
Nor do they have any way of preventing your egress to/from any cave 
passage under their property.
Yes in Texas the property ownership goes from the sky above to ground 
below (mineral rights being able to be separated from and sold 
separately from the land).
Caves MIGHT be able to be classified with mineral rights IF someone 
wanted to, for example in the case of commercial use of said cave.


If I recall there is (was) a TPWD boundary sign that was placed by 
cavers in one of the side passages in Honey Creek Cave were it goes 
under the park boundary fence. Someone at TPWD had said something to 
the effect that cavers needed to stop "digging" they way they were in 
that passage under the park as that method of "digging" was not 
approved by TWPD (and that is what propmpted the placement of said 
signage).


Terry H.

On 2017-07-22 0:00, Marvin and Lisa via Texascavers wrote:

We have probably all been in this situation: A landowner invites you
explore a cave on his land. You do a few trips with your caving buds.
You survey the cave. After surveying it becomes obvious that the cave
crosses under the property line of the neighboring landowner. Are you
trespassing if you continue to visit the cave and pass under the
neighboring property? Were you trespassing before you were aware that
the cave crossed the property line? Is it only trespassing when the
neighbor becomes aware of the cave and asks you not to traverse his
part of the cave anymore?



A related question: Does the survey data you collected of the
neighbor’s portion of the cave and do the pictures you took of that
area belong to you, or would the neighboring landowner have standing
to sue in court for the rights to that data?



Marvin Miller



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Re: [Texascavers] A question about the rights of cavers

[Bill Steele via Texascavers]

Start with this case:

https://www.quimbee.com/cases/marengo-cave-co-v-ross

Bill Steele 

> On Jul 22, 2017, at 3:00 PM, Marvin and Lisa via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> We have probably all been in this situation: A landowner invites you explore 
> a cave on his land. You do a few trips with your caving buds. You survey the 
> cave. After surveying it becomes obvious that the cave crosses under the 
> property line of the neighboring landowner. Are you trespassing if you 
> continue to visit the cave and pass under the neighboring property? Were you 
> trespassing before you were aware that the cave crossed the property line? Is 
> it only trespassing when the neighbor becomes aware of the cave and asks you 
> not to traverse his part of the cave anymore?
>  
> A related question: Does the survey data you collected of the neighbor’s 
> portion of the cave and do the pictures you took of that area belong to you, 
> or would the neighboring landowner have standing to sue in court for the 
> rights to that data?
>  
> Marvin Miller
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
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[Texascavers] A question about the rights of cavers

[Marvin and Lisa via Texascavers]

We have probably all been in this situation: A landowner invites you explore
a cave on his land. You do a few trips with your caving buds. You survey the
cave. After surveying it becomes obvious that the cave crosses under the
property line of the neighboring landowner. Are you trespassing if you
continue to visit the cave and pass under the neighboring property? Were you
trespassing before you were aware that the cave crossed the property line?
Is it only trespassing when the neighbor becomes aware of the cave and asks
you not to traverse his part of the cave anymore? 

 

A related question: Does the survey data you collected of the neighbor's
portion of the cave and do the pictures you took of that area belong to you,
or would the neighboring landowner have standing to sue in court for the
rights to that data?

 

Marvin Miller

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