[tw5] Re: Survey - Collaboration on Google Groups Conference

[Watt]

Thanks Mohammad and all other survey participants, I'm now closing the thread 
and survey here but hope you'll all be able to attend the forthcoming 
'Conference'. Thanks for your patience!

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[tw5] Re: Survey - Collaboration on Google Groups Conference

[Watt]

Thanks Ilya and TonyM. 
The survey closes on Wednesday, if anyone else would like to take part please 
do. All questions are optional. Thanks for your interest!

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[tw5] Re: Survey - Collaboration on Google Groups Conference

[Watt]

Hi Mohammad,

For this experiment I'm trying to keep everything 'in house' here on the forum. 
Google forms or external solutions will work I'm sure but;

*It's an additional step, this way tests the most basic method available.
*Results on Google Forms are obscure and not immediatley visible to forum users.
*Everything is here in one place.
*Kiss principle

Give it a go, or TT will be the first, as well as the last, to cast a vote on 
the forum ;)

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[tw5] Survey - Collaboration on Google Groups Conference

[Watt]

Hi,


This is a survey preparing for the forthcoming '*Conference on 
Collaboration on Google Groups*' to be held from the 11th October 2019, 
from which I hope to produce a report of some kind.


This survey builds on this earlier post, which is now 'closed'.

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/TiddlyWiki/2Dm_CrEfe3Q


If you copy paste the survey below into your reply post and then delete the 
answers you don't want then this might work. 

Alternatively please number your answers with the question number.

All questions are optional, of course. I'll avoid thanking each response 
but take it as read that I'm very grateful for your interest!


Please read the *'Hypothetical Project'* below before answering anything as 
it illustrates what I mean by 'Collaboration'. If you are able to answer 
any of the questions there with practical suggestions please do, but that's 
even more optional. Thanks for your time!



*Survey*

1. Have you ever collaborated with others on a shared project here on the 
forum?


a) yes b) no 


2. Have you ever wanted to collaborate with others on a shared project here 
on the forum but been inhibited from trying?


a) yes b) no


3. What are the most inhibiting factors for collaboration in a thread here? 
Can you put these in order of importance?


a) time commitment b) personalities c) difficulty of organising it d) lack 
of practical tools e) Google Groups forum limitations f) Other (specify if 
you want).


4. Which option best describes how you feel about collaborating with others 
on a project in a GG thread?


a) Powerful b)Exciting c) Effective d) Distracting e) Debilitating f) No 
interest


5. Can you put these mechanisms in order of importance for the purposes of 
project collaboration on this Google Groups forum?


a) election b) task monitoring c) decision making d) task allocation e) 
voting f) leadership


6. If tools were available within a thread that enabled those collaboration 
mechanisms on shared projects would you use them?


a) yes b) no


7. If you had to click and exit this forum in order to use an external tool 
that enabled collaboration, e.g Google Forms, would you find it;


a) acceptable b) distracting c) unacceptable


8. In your opinion does this Google Groups forum inhibit collaboration on 
shared projects?


a) yes b) no


9. Are you happy with Google Groups as a forum?


a) yes b) no


10. What do you normally access this forum with?


a) desktop b) mobile phone c) both


11. What do you think are the forum's greatest strengths?


12. What do you think are the forum's greatest weaknesses?


13. Would a 'sticky' guide to Google Groups usage be useful to you?


a) yes b) no


14. Would you like to move to alternative forum software or stay on Google 
Groups?


a) move b) stay


15. Would you like to vote on a list of alternative forum software or trust 
the choice made by the people who'd have to implement it?


a) vote b) trust choice made c) don't want to use alternative software



*Hypothetical Project*

Imagine you are participating in a thread here on Google Groups about a 
Tiddlywiki you are building to cover the Rugby World Cup. 10 other rugby 
loving forum users are participating in the thread.


The World Cup has started so there is some time pressure. You decide that 
collaborating together to construct the wiki would get the job done better 
and faster. 


The other participants are very strong willed, with very different opinions 
on how things should be done, they each support different teams.


You can't take the project out of the google group thread and you can't use 
external software solutions. 


*(If you have a practical 'how to' suggestion for any of these questions 
please do put it in, but it's not part of the survey)*


How would you initiate formal collaboration? 


Would you elect a team leader?


Do you think not having a leader could work?


What problems do you think the leader/collaborator roles might encounter?


How would you hold an election?


How would you reach decisions?


How would you hold a vote?


How would you agree who does which tasks?


What tools would be useful to manage the project?


How would you agree deadlines with the 10 collaborators?


How would you monitor progress? 

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[tw5] Re: Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Haha - but it's fun! Thanks Cd.K. and Lost Admin. Great points!

Thank you everyone for your responses and contributions. 

I'm going to close this thread and move on to Stage 2 - a short survey in a new 
thread. Then, finally, a 'Conference' in a week's time. Hope you'll be able to 
attend.

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[tw5] Re: Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

As promised to @Cd.K. I had a look at one of the Blender forums;

https://devtalk.blender.org/t/i-love-blender-so-ive-spent-a-bit-of-time-designing-a-better-ui-workflow-what-do-you-think/9693

Blender seems to be using the open source Discourse forum software;

https://meta.discourse.org/

Which offers some very attractive global forum features;

*Up-voting posts
*Sort posts by 'most liked' 
*Easy copy links to specific posts
*Comment history
*Links to posts which answer particular points in a thread
*A lot of stats.
*Status badges for users
*Sortable tags
*create a wiki from a post
*And more... 

Ilya has kicked off a discussion about it here;
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/TiddlyWiki/y0_tXU6b8oM

Obviously by now there are many more sophisticated alternatives to Google 
Groups and finding replacement software that could be migrated to painlessly 
would solve a lot of the problems users are outlining here about Google Groups. 

It's definitely not off-topic. Forum functionality is an influence on 
collaboration for many so the question of alternatives will be on the Agenda 
for sure, but choosing new forum software wasn't the initial motivation for 
this particular Collaboration Conference exercise. 

My starting point was 'Google Groups is limited but it is what we're stuck 
with, lets make the most of it'. It's still going after 14 years, can we 
squeeze some more uses out of it?

Maybe we're not stuck with it? Let's see, but if we were to replace Google 
Groups tomorrow the goal of this Conference would still be valid I think - to 
explore nitty gritty, coalface methods of collaborating within a thread on a 
shared 'project'. I think that problem will exist regardless of the 
sophistication of the forum software but we'll see what the discussion turns up.
 
I'm thinking practical questions like,

* 'how to call and carry out a vote among thread participants?' 
* 'is a project leader necessary?'
* 'how to elect a Lead?'
* 'how to agree a decision?'
* 'how to allocate tasks?'
* 'how to agree a timetable?'
* 'how to monitor and track progress?'

Those practical questions are difficult to answer once a thread is up and 
running because it's very distracting setting up the rules of the game once 
it's started.

Hence this attempt to answer them outside of any ongoing thread.

I'm looking for low-tech, low maintenance, inventive answers to those practical 
questions really, dead simple methods of cooperating on shared projects, on 
Google Groups at the moment, but methods that are probably applicable on any 
forum software.

Is it as simple as asking 'who wants to collaborate?' or 'lets have a vote on 
that'?

Still time to post thoughts or solutions before we close here later today and 
move on to the Survey, thanks for your patience!

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[tw5] Re: Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Thanks Tony,

Can you list a few pros and cons of the Mail archive over the standard GG 
interface from a collaboration point of view, for those of us who've never used 
it? 

As regards clarification, when I started I'll admit I was thinking more of ways 
of leveraging Google Groups to facilitate collaboration on shared goals and 
tasks.

Specifically the mechanisms within a thread where everyone participating knows 
what the shared goal is but can't quite formalise the process of collaborating 
together to achieve it, maybe because the 'tools' aren't part of our vocabulary 
yet.

What are those tools and mechanisms? Do collaboration groups have to have 
leaders? How can decisions be agreed? What are the practical mechanics of 
reaching a group decision? Tasks allocated? How can users vote? 

Can workarounds be implemented on Google Groups that allow thread participants 
to 'manage a project' collectively? 

That was my original interest, but so far the responses are tending towards a 
general thumbs down for GG, full stop. Some very good points are being made 
about that and they'll be on the Agenda for discussion for sure. 

I'm trying to avoid detailed discussion of anything here on this 'information 
gathering' thread.

In the meantime there's only 1 day left for submissions here before this  
thread closes. There are no wrong answers so please do post your thoughts and 
ideas about collaboration and the tools it requires. Many thanks.

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Re: [tw5] Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Thanks Ilya, added to the list!

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[tw5] Re: Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Thanks for the thoughts TT, there'll be a chance to discuss everything later I 
hope once the 'information gathering' stages conclude. Thanks for the input.

If anyone else wants to chip in please do - Any other techniques or workarounds 
you think might be useful when collaborating on a team project?

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Re: [tw5] Re: Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Thanks for the response Riz,
I'll add your points to the forthcoming Agenda thread where I hope the 
discussion will take place. Hope that doesn't count as necrobumping, this 
approach is a bit experimental.

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[tw5] Re: Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Thanks Tony, you've given me an excuse to go over the original post again. 
Here's 'the plan';

Stage 1 - (this thread) - Submissions close Wednesday 2nd October.
Collect ideas, thoughts, problems, experiences, anything to do with 
collaboration on google groups. No discussion at stage 1. 

Stage 2 - (new thread) - Submissions close Wednesday 9th October.
Collate responses in the form of a survey questionnaire - invite completion but 
no discussion at stage 2. 

Stage 3 - (new thread) - Friday 18th October.
Based on 1 and 2 publish a 'Conference Agenda' and invite 'attendence' and 
discussion!

Stage 4 - (new thread) - publish Friday 25th October
Try to bring the results together in the form of a 'Conference Report'.

Each thread will include 'Collaboration' and 'Google Groups' in the title so 
I'm hoping they'll be findable.

The objective is to explore methods and mechanisms that can be used 'natively' 
here on google groups, that facilitate collaboration on 'projects' - without 
any additional software.

Longwinded I know but it's an experiment and so far responses have been good. 
There's still time for plenty more though so, before this thread closes for 
business on Wednesday, please do post if you are a group user with thoughts on 
collaboration.

Thanks again!

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[tw5] Re: Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Thanks for the response Tony,

Have a look at the original post and you'll see the 4 stage, timetabled 'plan', 
such as it is, culminating in a virtual 'Conference on Collaboration in Google 
Groups'. I'm hoping that description will contain enough keywords to make it 
findable in the future. 

This is still 'Stage 1 - collecting ideas' which, as you can see, closes for 
submissions on Wednesday 2nd October.

I'm trying to avoid discussion at this 'idea collection' stage but I've picked 
out these 2 points from your post and will add them to the pool for 'Stage 2';

"Before any alternative is discussed we should try and leverage our existing 
tools"

and

'there is no good [voting] mechanism' here on Google Groups.

Thanks for the input.

All thoughts on the problems of collaboration and possible solutions within the 
limitations of GG welcome, so keep them coming! Only 2 days left for 
submissions.

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[tw5] Re: Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Thanks for the response Cd.K, I'll definitely have a look at Blender and add 
points here if I can. Thanks for the input.
 
I'm still collecting any thoughts on collaboration successes, failures and all 
points in between, as experienced by users here on google groups. Everything 
counts so please do post if you have any opinions, positive, negative or 
indifferent before we get into the discussion stage. Thanks.

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[tw5] Re: Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Rather than just 'bump' this I thought it would be more productive to look 
through previous threads for collaboration questions and ideas.

I'm still trying to avoid discussion of the ideas just yet, hoping to collect 
more responses and ideas first, so please do chip in any ideas, problems, 
questions you can think of on the subject of collaboration here on google 
groups.

This recent thread response from Mat raises just the sort of questions I'm 
interested in;

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/TiddlyWiki/XNqCTk4JYCA

"Zachary wrote: Is anyone interested in a TiddlyWiki community book?"

Mat replied;

"2) For this project to not be a pipe dream, is someone taking the lead on 
this? How is it implemented? Hosted? How are people to contribute? ..How 
does the project survival not rely on one guy keeping up his interest for it? 
Or is the intention a one-off that will be outdated in a year?

3) If an author named B agrees with an article written by author A, then B can 
add his name to it to give further trustworthiness to A's article. Articles 
should probably have a stamp/tag showing the TW version it was written in, for 
context. The comments plugin would prolly be useful in a project like this... 
(but how are people to comment?)"

Generic collaboration questions this post suggests to me;

How to request collaboration on a project?

How to establish a project Lead?

How to implement collaboration?

How to join in and contribute?

How to maintain a collaborative project?

How to assign 'authority' or 'agency' to the project's authors?

How to establish version control?

What comment mechanism best suits collaboration?

Exactly the kinds of questions that could be discussed in the forthcoming 
'Google Groups Collaboration Conference' . If you have any more to add please 
feel free to post them here.

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[tw5] Re: Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Thanks for the response Thomas, you've got the ball rolling! Keep them coming, 
anything and everything to do with collaboration on Google Groups welcome.

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[tw5] Conference announcement: Collaboration on Google Groups

[Watt]

Hi fellow forum users!

I'm interested in methods of collaborating on 'projects' here on Google Groups 
and I'd like to ask for your help in organising a virtual 'Conference' here on 
the forum to look into it.

Here is the process I have in mind, it will take a month to complete but, if I 
get some responses, my objective is to produce and publish a 'Conference 
Report' on group collaboration here, outlining methods, mechanisms and tools 
that can be used to facilitate collaboration and cooperation within this Google 
Group. I aim to publish it here by the last week of October.

This is my own experiment - not affiliated with TW or GG or anything else, just 
an attempt to have some fun and explore what can be done using just a forum. I 
appreciate that it may appear presumptious, and that's one example of what I'm 
interested in, so don't hesitate to talk about the psychology of collaboration 
if that interests you as well as the practical mechanics.

The Process
Stage 1: Time allowance, 1 week. Submissions open today Wednesday 25th 
September - Submissions close Wednesday 2nd October 2019.

Request forum users to think about collaboration and team cooperation on Google 
Groups and to formulate and post as many of their own questions/thoughts on the 
subject as they care to, here, in this thread.

I do NOT want you to discuss anybody else's contributions at this stage. I'm 
just looking for your own individual thoughts on collaboration on GG, 
crystalised as questions if possible. There are no right or wrong answers and 
multiple posts are welcome.

I do NOT want you to suggest external software solutions or wikis. I'm only 
interested in collaboration within GG at the moment.

I DO want you to think creatively about collaboration methods and problems 
you've experienced or solved, or collaboration problems and solutions you can 
see a need for but which didn't get solved. Try to think within the limitations 
of this forum. There are external solutions I know, but how could the same 
results be achieved using only Google Groups? What obstacles need to be 
overcome for collaboration to work here?

\define Collaboration()

"Collaboration is the process of two or more people or organizations working 
together to complete a task or achieve a goal. Collaboration is similar to 
cooperation." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration

\end

\define Google Groups ()

Google Groups is a chronologically organised, discussion based message-board 
forum with a search facility. It has been used by Tiddlywiki as its central 
discussion forum for over 14 years, since June 2005. It contains over 
$missingvar posts and has 6810 members. The group's all time most active poster 
is founder Jeremy Ruston with over 5646 posts.

\end

Stage 2: Time allowance 1 week. Submissions open Thursday 3rd October - 
Submissions Close Wednesday 9th October.

Generate and publish a Survey questionnaire using questions from stage 1 and 
post it here on the forum for completion by users. Again, no discussion at this 
stage.

Stage 3: Time allowance 1 week. Submissions open Friday 11th October - 
Submissions close Friday 18th October. 
Collate, condense and tally Survey results and produce and publish a Conference 
Agenda and an Invitation to Attend and Discuss in a new thread here on this 
forum. Basically I hope to publish an Agenda and invite immediate discussion 
and feedback. This is when the discussion will take place. I might try and use 
this - Nominal Group Technique - 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_group_technique but it depends on the 
responses.

Stage 4: Time allowance 1 week. Publication Friday 25th October.

Produce and publish here on the forum a Conference Report outlining methods, 
mechanisms and tools that can be used to facilitate collaboration and 
cooperation within this Google Group. That's it.

Well, I hope you'll take part - if nothing happens at least we'll know this 
approach isn't very popular, but I'm hoping we'll get some useful low-tech 
collaboration tools out of the 'Conference' which will be available to forum 
users in the future.

We're now at Stage 1, open for submissions until 2nd October - I'll bump this 
thread up the list until then if it looks like it's disappearing down the 
memory hole.
Please post below, thanks for your time and collaboration!

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[tw5] Re: What's the point of effort?

[Watt]

Thanks @gloom - will keep an eye out for it. Hope the medical went well.

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[tw5] Re: Today TiddlyWiki is 15 years old

[Watt]

Happy Birthday TW! Thanks Jeremy, it's used here every day!

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[tw5] Re: What's the point of effort?

[Watt]

@Gloom Looks interesting! Have you got a link to share?

@Mohammad - sorry for the delayed response - just a simple link to your active 
TW-Scripts site was what I was thinking, not to any specific solution. After 
your github problems I wasn't sure of the correct location. Thanks.

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[tw5] Re: What's the point of effort?

[Watt]

I think I agree Mohammad, I was trying to illustrate my point in the previous 
post that multiple 'silos' are a bad idea. Keep the conversation in a single 
location gets my vote.

Do you still have a link to your solution sharing input form? It might be 
something that could be discussed here.

On a total sidenote - I like how you frequently post 'Added to TW-Scripts' when 
encountering solutions here. Can I ask you to turn that into a link to 
TW-Scripts? I often want to go directly to TW-Scripts and see your 
implementation. Big thanks for your many contributions Mohammad.

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[tw5] Re: What's the point of effort?

[Watt]

Illustrating the multiple fora problem;

"There is also a discussion group specifically for discussing TiddlyWiki 
documentation improvement initiatives": 
http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidocs

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[tw5] Re: A TiddlyWiki community book.

[Watt]

And Diego's just posted this. Eric's in a league of his own so a better example 
and indicator of the size of the task would be hard to find. 

https://github.com/ericshulman/InsideTiddlyWiki

https://tiddlytools.github.io/InsideTW/

Check out some of the documentation posts and you'll see it's a recognised 
problem under much discussion at the moment.

There is also a discussion group specifically for discussing TiddlyWiki 
documentation improvement initiatives: 
http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywikidocs

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[tw5] Re: A TiddlyWiki community book.

[Watt]

https://dynalist.io/d/zUP-nIWu2FFoXH-oM7L7d9DM

Writing and Editing might have what you're looking for.

The documentation train is just leaving the platform a few posts down under 
'What's the point of effort'. All aboard! No ticket required.

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[tw5] Re: What's the point of effort?

[Watt]

Nice one TT! Collaboration, limited collectivism and sharing the load get my 
vote.

In my opinion GG is actually TW's strongest resource at the moment.

*GG is a brain dump - a silo - anything and everything goes in it.

*GG is the reliable silo. The entire conversation takes place here. Splinter 
discussion groups will splinter the conversation. IMO Avoid multiple silos. 
Open, unified discussion in a single established location is powerful, 
inclusive and democratic.

*GG is the first, officially recognised point of call if you're a TW beginner. 
You can find answers here and ask questions. The community is courteous, 
diverse, helpful and very knowledgeable. 

*That idea of community has enormous value - the level of unforced user 
engagement on GG is extraordinary.

*GG has limitations but in its favour it's still here, 24 hours a day, it's 
neutral - not subject to an individual's whims and styles, it is egoless, 
'owned' by the group, not one individual. It has everything in it, there is a 
chronology. It's searchable - granted hitting the right search term is 
difficult but difficulty can be 'educational'.

*GG has a personality - acquired from it's collective membership - it also 
quickly reveals who the TW 'adepts' are. You learn to trust inputs from 
particular names - (Don't stop sharing you lovely people).

So, I like GG despite its faults.

I think your emerging model of Official TW documentation, supplemented by GG as 
the big brain dump where everything goes, supplemented by super useful TW 
resource lists like Dave's Toolmap, supplemented by user generated 'area 
specific' solution wikis such as Mohammad's pioneering TW-Scripts and Regex 
Solutions is a pretty good model. 

Maybe it's the area specific solutions that could be collaborated on and 
extended? Mohammad has got the ball rolling already I think and did float an 
input tool for contributions of solutions found on GG. Perhaps he'd be willing 
to brush up the mechanism and users could discuss and agree on a formalised, 
recognised, findable accepted method of chipping in solutions around particular 
problematic topic areas? 

Some features I'd prefer;
No single individual shoulders the burden
Self maintainiing
Easy input
Topic defined
Formally recognised and promoted
Uses TW wherever possible 

Other things this thread might have ideas on;
Structure of contribution
Input method
Collection point
Agreed topic areas
Method of publicising

Collating those solution inputs would be the work that might need sharing and 
how to go about that could discussed further.

The FAQ idea is another possible route, I think administering one, maintaining 
answers and establishing whose responsibility it would be need careful 
discussion. Avoiding multiple information silos and diluting the collective but 
anarchic authority of GG might be considerations.

Anyway just my 2 cents, here's a simple 3 hit helpline hierarchy for any 
beginners out there;

Tiddlywiki Official Docs - https://tiddlywiki.com/

--Google Groups -http://groups.google.com/group/TiddlyWiki

 Dave Gifford's Toolmap - https://dynalist.io/d/zUP-nIWu2FFoXH-oM7L7d9DM  
see relevant sections

Dave's already created a beautiful resource - so why reinvent that wheel? 
Adding area specific solutions to his toolmap, solution sites with examples, 
created along the lines explored by Mohammad seems like it could be 
coordinatable and doable. 'Lets Snowball that cumulative group knowledge'.

Keep up the good work guys. Big thanks to all you TW-ites for your efforts and 
the continuing conversation. It is much appreciated!


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[tw5] Re: The documentation is bad

[Watt]

Group hug guys, group hug.

https://youtu.be/mgmVOuLgFB0

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[tw5] Re: Request for Comment - Universal Selector

[Watt]

Wow - you've already done it! http://tidbitz.tiddlyspot.com/ is almost exactly 
what I was thinking of. Could the buttons be made available to the editor 
instead of the sidebar? Clickable instead of dragdropable? I think tidbitz 
needs reviving - anything that lowers the bar for beginners has my vote.

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[tw5] Re: Request for Comment - Universal Selector

[Watt]

Yes, the top of the head the example came from was a little too close to the 
ground at the time. ;)
I've only just twigged how useful the stamp tool can be.

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[tw5] Re: Request for Comment - Universal Selector

[Watt]

Interesting question TonyM, and maybe a great opportunity to fill a missing gap 
in TW. 

In my opinion there is a missing top layer in TW. It never received the final 
buttons translating the dark wikitext incantations into a new-user friendly UI.
 
Consider MS Word - do I type at the command line an elaborate, syntactically 
arcane text instruction to tell it to create a bullet point list? No, I click a 
button. The instructions are then inserted into the document correctly. I don't 
even need to see them or learn them or remember to use the correct bracket 
combo. I just get a bullet point list! TW never took it all the way with its 
GUI imo.

The Stamp tool does have some functionality in this direction. An extensive 
list of common TW code snippets can be added to it, but I think a whole new 
button set is needed which will do the work for beginners. 

The roll your own option would still be available for the adept but an edition 
with off the shelf code buttons, maybe grouped by common programming functions 
might help many new TW users.

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[tw5] Re: In the making of a "NoteBooks" plugin ...

[Watt]

Nice one, I like the simplicity and it's quite mobile friendly.

Here's some feedback;
The dash circle/icon and green open button do seem like duplicate functions. 

Two buttons would be good for me; 
1. a new sub-notebook button as you have it, but at the bottom. (easier access 
on a mobile phone)
2. another button on each notebook to add a tiddler to it (new-here-ish).
3. Big bright buttons are good on a mobile. Drag and drop doesn't work.
4. Displaying the notebook date isn't needed for me.

Other ideas;
*An export notebook button (eg export all a subnotebook tids as json, maybe 
import too)
*Merge notebooks option
*A one click way to close all tids and return to the notebook manager would be 
useful.

Putting it in the sidebar doesn't work so well on a mobile for me, imo it would 
be better placed as a startup tiddler. 
Mobile phone use vs desktop though - for me the phone is a more likely use, 
others might disagree. 

Nice idea, thanks for sharing!



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[tw5] Changing tags based on <>, perhaps on startUp?

[Watt]

Nice one. Couldn't find it in docs, should have taken more than a minute 
(agenda joke!)
https://tiddlywiki.com/#StartupActions

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[tw5] Changing tags based on <>, perhaps on startUp?

[Watt]

Thanks for this Steve, this script by Jed might help with the startup actions 
if it still works with the latest release, I haven't tried it;
https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/StartupActions/

I hope you keep going with Agendas, I've bolted Mohammad's todolist on to it as 
an Agenda template and they seem to work well together on a mobile without drag 
and drop. Still working out the Topics mechanism though.
Good luck.

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[tw5] The Navigation Mechanism is missing in Tiddlywiki 5.1.19

[Watt]

You are right Luis, no wonder I've been going round in circles!
Is this any help?
https://tiddlywiki.com/#NavigatorWidget

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[tw5] Re: Concatenate this...

[Watt]

In my experience no, it doesn't get any easier, but I'm an infinity monkey and 
enjoy this as a break from Shakespeare's complete works. 

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[tw5] Re: edit-text widget to change a field in the same tiddler

[Watt]

Nice one Luis! State tiddlers are the way to go, temporary 'storage' tiddlers 
that let you write their field contents back where you want it, when you want 
it;
https://tiddlywiki.com/#StateMechanism

The reveal is an extra refinement - thanks for sharing. Keep them coming.

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[tw5] Concatenate this...

[Watt]

Ps and call it as <> if wikified.

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[tw5] Concatenate this...

[Watt]

You're in the right direction but I think you have to define the concatenation 
as a local macro at the top of the edit area put this;

\define final()
{{$:/_opTaskStore!!taskname}} - ({{{ [[]make[%uuid%]] }}})
\end

And then call it where you need it with;

<>

The uuid part may give problems. Sometimes it's necessary to wikify a 
calculation to render it correctly. If so define final as above then put

<$wikify name="myfinal" text=<> >

Your code here.



Hope that works, somebody will correct me if not I hope. Lie down in a darkened 
room and get your strength up before you look up wikify in the docs!

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[tw5] Re: Turn field of external tiddler into a link to a tiddler of that name

[Watt]

If you search the forum for 'Variable Eric' and look for this discussion it 
might help with the brackets;
Query 101 -- Where is the Crib Sheet for Bracket & Quote marks?

Sorry I can't get a direct link from the phone, don't think this works;
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/TiddlyWiki/Variable$20eric/tiddlywiki/3DyHxqqFQbg

Eric is a TW Jedi. The cribsheet is in there somewhere, posted by passingby I 
believe, but all the contributors know much more about it than I ever will. 
Good luck!  

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[tw5] Turn field of external tiddler into a link to a tiddler of that name

[Watt]

The brackets are a headache. Try this;

<$link to={{$:/_opTaskStore!!taskname}}>{{$:/_opTaskStore!!taskname}}

https://tiddlywiki.com/#LinkWidget

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[tw5] Re: Proof of concept: Auto-completion for filters

[Watt]

The update with info links is working here Bimlas. Good stuff. Maybe set the 
docs links to open in a new tab? Or a pop-up so we don't have to leave the 
page? (Maybe not so mobile friendly though).

It definitely encourages use of the docs and discovery of filter operators I 
might be a bit fuzzy about, so it already works just on the educational level.

Getting the chosen filter into the edit text area sounds tricky but maybe 'copy 
to clipboard' would be enough?

There are lots of TW users all with different levels of ability so anything 
that helps reveal the mysteries is valuable.

Those @Mat links are great. Have you got that balloon block editor working Mat? 

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[tw5] Re: Problems getting $action-createtiddler to populate variable via SaveTitle

[Watt]

Congratulations, you've discovered state tiddlers. It took me years to discover 
state tiddlers. Careful or they'll ask you to write the documentation.

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[tw5] Re: Problems getting $action-createtiddler to populate variable via SaveTitle

[Watt]

Nice! A lot more concise.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe your optaskstore is a nice example of a 
state tiddler. 
https://tiddlywiki.com/#StateMechanism

Good luck with the project.
 

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[tw5] Re: Proof of concept: Auto-completion for filters

[Watt]

The update works here. A little twitchy, it needs the first square bracket and 
a bit of tapping inside and outside of the text box but it autocompletes. Nice! 

For me being able to get the filter to appear at the cursor in the text edit 
area would be the ideal but that sounds like a tall order. Drag and drop don't 
work for me on a phone. 'Copy to clipboard' would do the job, maybe not too 
difficult to achieve?

It's looking good though Bimlas, others will come up with more feedback I'm 
sure.

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[tw5] Problems getting $action-createtiddler to populate variable via SaveTitle

[Watt]

Hi MagoArcade

Here's one attempt. It looks like there's a bit of duplication but maybe that's 
how you need it. Other forum users will almost certainly have better solutions 
but this might work for you.

!Add Task
--
Task Name: <$edit-text tiddler="NewTask" field=NewTask tag="input" default="New 
Task" class='tc-edit-texteditor' placeholder='New Task'/>


Brief Description: <$edit-text tiddler="NewTask" field="BriefDesc" tag="input" 
default="no-one" class='tc-edit-texteditor' placeholder=''/>


Asigned to: <$edit-text tiddler="NewTask" field="AssignedTo" tag="input" 
default="no-one" class='tc-edit-texteditor' placeholder='no-one'/>


<$button>New Task


<$action-setfield $tiddler='_templateTask' $field='NewTask' 
$value={{NewTask!!NewTask}}/>

<$action-setfield $tiddler='_templateTask' $field='caption' 
$value={{NewTask!!NewTask}}/>


<$action-setfield $tiddler='_templateTask' $field='BriefDesc' 
$value={{NewTask!!BriefDesc}}/>

<$action-setfield $tiddler='_templateTask' $field='tmap.id' $value={{{ 
[[]make[%uuid%]] }}} />

<$action-setfield $tiddler='_templateTask' $field='AssignedTo' 
$value={{NewTask!!AssignedTo}} /> 



<$action-createtiddler $basetitle={{_templateTask!!NewTask}} 
$savetitle=tasksavetitle BriefDesc={{_templateTask!!BriefDesc}} 
AssignedTo={{_templateTask!!AssignedTo}} caption={{_templateTask!!caption}} 
tmap.id={{_templateTask!!tmap.id}}  />

<$action-setfield $tiddler=NewTask NewTask=''/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=NewTask caption=''/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=NewTask AssignedTo=''/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=NewTask BriefDesc=''/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=_templateTask NewTask=''/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=_templateTask AssignedTo=''/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=_templateTask BriefDesc=''/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=_templateTask caption=''/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=_templateTask tmap.id=''/> 

<$action-navigate $to={{tasksavetitle}}/>



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[tw5] Proof of concept: Auto-completion for filters

[Watt]

Hi Bimlas
Anything that helps remember the many possibilities is good.

Maybe a 'show all' option would be good? If I don't know a filter exists I 
won't search for it.

Maybe a toggle switch between 'autocomplete' and 'link to docs'? Some users 
still learning (me) need to see what a filter does. Advanced users need 
autocomplete. Or an info pop-up?

The autocomplete would be most useful in edit mode for me I suppose but I've no 
idea how you'd achieve that. An expanding edit bar button? Failing that a 
copytoclipboard option might work. Is it possible to float the lookup in a 
side-editor style window?

Anyway, thumbs up for its utility. Could make a great tool.

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[tw5] Re: Filtering Lists by a field that contains multiple sub-fields

[Watt]

50 years ago!

https://youtu.be/Vl89g2SwMh4

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[tw5] Filtering Lists by a field that contains multiple sub-fields

[Watt]

Hi Steve
Tiddlymap is a beautiful thing! There was a similar question just the other day 
- I hope Mat doesn't mind me quoting his answer to that;

"TiddlyMap is a project from one individual, Felix Kupper / Felix Hayashi. I 
doubt anyone else can answer but he is, as far as I know, not very active in 
the community. At least he is not seen in this discussion group. If I were you, 
I'd post an issue on the TiddlyMap github repo. He is a very friendly guy so if 
he can, he will probably reply."

The github repo is here;
https://github.com/felixhayashi/TW5-TiddlyMap

Hope you find an answer and can come back here and share the magic. Good luck! 

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[tw5] Killing Timestamps

[Watt]

Do you mean the 'created' and 'modified' fields?

https://tiddlywiki.com/#TiddlerFields

If so I think they're built in and required. Might be possible to reset them to 
dates of your choosing though.

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[tw5] Re: The Cycle macro

[Watt]

Great stuff! Thanks Mohammad and Hans. Another really useful component for the 
TW toolkit.

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[tw5] Tiny Todolist Plugin RC 7: Create todo item with different categories

[Watt]

Beautiful! Thanks a lot Mohammad, it's surely done now!

I tweaked the css a little for my use with Quinoid on a smallish Android phone. 
The tweaks worked for me but all phones are different of course, so maybe best 
to backup Mohammad's original css templates if  you're tempted to use these;

$:/plugins/kookma/todolist/styles/main.css I changed to;



/* Todolist main ui */
.kk-todolist-ui{
min-width:320px; /* controls the minimum width of whole ui */
}

.kk-todolist-ui svg{
fill:#aa;
}

.kk-todolist-ui button:hover svg {
fill: #88; 
}

/* Todolist header ui */

.kk-todolist-header-ui{
 display: flex;
 width: 100%; /* for larg screen width> 960px*/
 }
.kk-todolist-header-ui > div{
 margin: 1px;
 flex-grow:0;   
}
.kk-todolist-header-ui .kk-todolist-header-textbox{
flex-grow:1;
}

/* Todolist items ui */
.kk-todolist-row{
 display: flex; 
 width: 100%; /* for larg screen width> 960px*/
 flex-wrap: wrap;
}

.kk-todolist-row .kk-todolist-done,
.kk-todolist-row .kk-todolist-priority,
.kk-todolist-row .kk-todolist-delete {
 flex-grow:0; width:15px;
}

.kk-todolist-row .kk-todolist-desc{
flex-grow:1; 
width: calc(80% - 50px); 
padding-left: 10px;
padding-right: 10px;
}
.kk-todolist-row .kk-todolist-delete {
 opacity: 0.3;
}

.kk-todolist-row .kk-todolist-priority{
margin-right:5px;
}
.kk-todolist-row:hover {
  background-color: #f6f6f6;
}
.kk-todolist-row:hover .kk-todolist-delete {
  opacity: 1;
}




And $:/plugins/kookma/todolist/styles/other.css I changed to;




/* completed item */

.kk-todolist-item-done{
text-decoration: red line-through;
font-style: italic;
}

/* inputbox for add-task */
.kk-todolist-input-textbox {
width:90%;
padding-left: 3px;
border: none;
border-bottom: 1px dotted grey;
}

.kk-todolist-input-textbox:focus {
outline: none;
border-bottom: 1px solid #5778d8;
background: transparent;
}




Sorry, no formatting or attachment options on mobile forum!

Thanks again Mohammad.

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[tw5] Re: The Cycle macro

[Watt]

My experiments failed, I can't get arraySet to accept a transcluded value. I 
was hoping to be able to pass the values to arraySet either from a field, a 
macro or possibly from the values of another data tiddler. No luck so far. I 
know it's not offered as an option but it seems like a useful tweak. It may be 
that I'm just not using the correct bracket incantation. Any suggestions 
welcome. 

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[tw5] Re: The Cycle macro

[Watt]

Thanks very much Mohammad! It works very well. With the dates 01 to 31 typed 
into arraySet I can scroll through them and display events previously entered 
for that date into another data tiddler. A diary viewer! 
I'm now experimenting to see if the arraySet can be transcluded in from either 
a field or from the values of another data tiddler.
Another small step for man, a giant leap for todolistists - thanks again.

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[tw5] Re: The Cycle macro

[Watt]

Breaking News - "Todolist not done!"

Nice Mohammad, would you be able to cycle through days of the month with this? 
e.g. For a quick day view on a diary app?

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[tw5] optimising performance (searching vs saving tiddlers)

[Watt]

Hi haroulito
If you haven't already seen it there is another useful discussion here;

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/tiddlywiki/Aheyeybfydg

Bimlas and others comments towards the end offer some good tips.
Good luck!

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[tw5] Re: A much much better alternative to my todo plugin

[Watt]

It's a data-tiddler driven beast of a todolist Mohammad!
 
With a framework that can be applied to many different applications -  diary, 
bird watching logger, run keeper, habit loop logger, geolocation logger, 
anything time based that doesn't really need a full tiddler for each event. As 
h0p3 suggested it would make a good frontend for a calendar.
 
Some things are so trivial they only need to be recorded with a line but didn't 
you develop a mechanism to convert index:value pairs into tiddlers for your 
Trashcan app? Maybe you could incorporate that as an option so that we have the 
best of both worlds?

Todolist may be 'done' but I'm sure you're going to find new ways to reuse its 
efficient mechanisms Mohammad, keep them coming!

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[tw5] Re: Tiny Todolist RC2: New UI and major improvement

[Watt]

Hi hOp3
I have a rather long-winded method of showing 'tasks' selected by index date. 
It's not a calendar, more like a diary, but it may give you some ideas to work 
with. I'm absolutely sure there are more efficient ways to do this but I only 
started with data tiddlers recently and this evolved out of the learning 
process.

This works with the data/tasks file produced by Mohammad's todolist.

I have 2 tiddlers of type 'application/x-tiddler-dictionary'.

1 is titled 'months' and has this content;
01:01
02:02
03:03
04:04
05:05
06:06
07:07
08:08
09:09
10:10
11:11
12:12

The second is called 'days' and has the same content but all the way to 31:31

The third tiddler is titled 'mymonths' and creates a transcludable drop down 
selector for months. It contains;

<$select tiddler="$:/_state/dateselector" field="month">
<$list filter='[[months]indexes[]]'>
<$list filter='[[months]getindex' variable='']>
<>









<$list filter="[[months]getindex{$:/_state/dateselector!!month}]" 
variable="value">



The fourth tiddler is titled 'mydays' and creates a drop down selector for 
days. It contains;

<$select tiddler="$:/_state/dateselector" field="day">
<$list filter='[[days]indexes[]]'>
<$list filter='[[days]getindex' variable='']>
<>









<$list filter="[[days]getindex{$:/_state/dateselector!!day}]" variable="value">




Finally the fifth tiddler is titled 'tasks by date' and allows you to select 
your tasks by date. It contains;

\define concatdate()
2019.{{$:/_state/dateselector!!month}}.{{$:/_state/dateselector!!day}}
\end

Day: {{mydays}}
Month: {{mymonths}}

<$wikify name="myconcatdate" text=<> >


<>

<$list filter="[[$:/plugins/kookma/todolist/data/YOURBASENAME/tasks]indexes[]] 
+[regexp:title]">


<$list 
filter="[[$:/plugins/kookma/todolist/data/YOURBASENAME/tasks]getindex]"
 variable="value"><>






Note that you need to edit YOURBASENAME in 'tasks by date' twice to the base 
name that you are using in todolist.

I never got around to making a dropdown for years but it would follow the same 
pattern.

Like I say, longwinded, not a calendar, definitely not a textbook example but 
it might give you or others ideas and hopefully someone will extend it and 
correct my slapdash methods.

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[tw5] Re: Tiny Todolist Plugin: Create one line todo item with different categories

[Watt]

Nice one Mohammad!

+1 for table 'width:100%' on mobile. I'm trying some of the css options here to 
get the description text in full on mobile;
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1258416/word-wrap-in-an-html-table

By adding [[ ]] square brackets around input tasks they appear as links.
Maybe make it the default for tasks to be linkified so a tiddler can easily be 
created from the task? 

It's another good example of data tiddler utility, thanks Mohammad!

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[tw5] modal window when delete a tiddler from tiddler view button

[Watt]

I think there is a difference between ActionDeleteTiddlerWidget and 
tm-delete-tiddler. Only the latter generates a confirmation dialogue.

$:/core/ui/Buttons/delete uses tm-delete-tiddler.

The confirmation message is in
$:/language/ConfirmDeleteTiddler


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[tw5] Re: Trashbin Pluging: Simply delete your tiddlers and restore them

[Watt]

It's ok, no need to do anything Mohammad, I worked it out. I just added 
!is[system] to the first list filter in 
$:/plugins/kookma/trashbin/viewtoolbar-button

Now it looks like this;

<$list filter="[all[current]!is[system]!tag[trash]!search:title[$:/trashbin/]]">

The trashcan now only appears on my non-system tiddlers. 

(Big thumbs on a phone screen made it easy to add things to the trash list by 
mistake.)

If I become a developer I'll change it back. ;)



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[tw5] Re: fields operator and macro parameter

[Watt]

Thanks again Mohammad, I tweaked it a bit to get the values to show;

<$text text={{{ [<__tid__>get] }}} />

I replaced getindex with just get. (For the benefit of future readers.)

Great stuff Mohammad.

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[tw5] Re: Trashbin Pluging: Simply delete your tiddlers and restore them

[Watt]

No the trashbin button also appears on system tiddlers. For example I can send 
$:/core to the trashbin. 
I could delete $:/core using the existing, traditional, delete button as well I 
suppose, but it's marginally harder to do on a phone. Just a 'heads up' in case 
it wasn't what you intended.

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[tw5] Trashbin Pluging: Simply delete your tiddlers and restore them

[Watt]

That is a beautiful thing Mohammad. I really like the mechanism for converting 
from 'tiddler with fields' to data tiddler and back again. I can see a lot of 
uses for it besides the trashbin - a slightly easier 'export' method from 
Quinoid on mobile for example.
My only suggestion is to prevent the trashbin appearing on system tiddlers. 
Thanks a lot.

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[tw5] Pallete Tutorial?

[Watt]

These might help. Thomas Elmiger is the author and a wizz with the palette and 
theme. Good luck.

https://tid.li/tw5/themes.html

https://tid.li/tw5/test/bricks.html

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[tw5] Re: fields operator and macro parameter

[Watt]

Hi Mohammad
Could this be extended to show the field values as well?

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[tw5] Re: <> vs []

[Watt]

Has my plea been footile? It has just the opposite effect on me, I can't stop 
thinking 'what's a foo?' I must be foolexic, or was on a bar stool the day they 
covered it at school. Couldn't 'apples' be used instead?

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[tw5] Re: <> vs []

[Watt]

I hope you twizards know how much your contributions are valued and appreciated 
but on behalf of non-programmers everywhere, the easily confused and all those 
unfamiliar with the use and tradition behind the word 'foo' can I humbly 
request that it is never used in examples relating to tiddlywiki? It really 
doesn't make things easier to understand. 

And as for 'bar'...  please, don't do it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar

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[tw5] Re: create a button that mimics the behaviour of "Create a new tiddler tagged with this one"

[Watt]

Hi Ankit

The docs on the official site have some info and examples:
https://tiddlywiki.com/#addsuffix%20Operator

https://tiddlywiki.com/#addprefix%20Operator

https://tiddlywiki.com/#VarsWidget:VarsWidget

If you find them a bit sparse you could try TWScripts for more examples;

https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/#Filter%20Returns%20Only%20the%20First%20suffix%20word

https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/#Simple%20Comparison%20of%20Two%20Variables

or sometimes searching the forum here is the best source of inspiration. 
They're generally pretty good at answering questions too, whatever the level, 
from beginner to expert. Good luck.



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[tw5] Re: Presenting: fields2table

[Watt]

Working! Thanks very much Mat, it's very useful!

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[tw5] Re: Presenting: fields2table

[Watt]

Thanks for this Mat, 
Got a problem on edit though. I'm losing the contents of my list field after 
clicking on the edit pen (top left on the table), then clicking it again to 
save.

Field names look correct and I get the same result on your demo site.

I used <> in a tiddler with a list field containing 
'event url' and another tiddler with fields event and url, populated.

The table appears fine but clicking the edit pen twice empties the list field 
for me.

Anybody else with the same experience?

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[tw5] Re: Can a <$button> be used to create a data tiddler?

[Watt]

Try this on an empty test wiki. Don't use it on your thousand plus geneaology 
wiki without having made backups.

It's not a complete solution but it might give some help. You'll need to extend 
it with more indexes/fields according to your needs. The wizards here on the 
forum might have better solutions to offer.

Paste this into a new tiddler;

\define data_title()
$:/?data/{{$:/temp/person!!name.family}}/{{$:/temp/person!!name.middle}}/{{$:/temp/person!!name.given}}
\end

\define addProfile()

<$wikify name="person_data_title" text=<> >

<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $index=name.middle 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.middle}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $index=name.family 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.family}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $index=name.given 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.given}}/>


<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $field=name.middle 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.middle}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $field=name.family 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.family}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $field=name.given 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.given}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $field=tags 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.family}}/>



<$action-setfield $tiddler='$:/temp/person' name.family="" name.middle=""
name.given=""/>


<$action-sendmessage $message="tm-auto-save-wiki"/>
\end

Family name: <$edit-text class='tc-edit-texteditor' tiddler='$:/temp/person' 
field='name.family'/>


Middle name: <$edit-text class='tc-edit-texteditor' tiddler='$:/temp/person' 
field='name.middle'/>

Given name: <$edit-text class='tc-edit-texteditor' tiddler='$:/temp/person' 
field='name.given'/>



<$button actions=<> >Add 

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[tw5] Re: Can a <$button> be used to create a data tiddler?

[Watt]

Here is an attempt that may or may not help you Chris. Try it out on an empty 
test wiki first, I am not a wizard so please don't use it on your thousand plus 
genealogy wiki, make backups of everything.
 
This should produce a data tiddler with matching fields for each input 
individual. (data tiddler and fields=Future proof!) 
The data tiddlers produced will be named $:/?data/family/middle/given and 
tagged with family name. 
You will have to extend it to include all the indexes/fields you need. 
It's not a complete solution but might help you get there. Perhaps one of the 
forum wizards will suggest better options.

Paste this into a tiddler, the name doesn't matter;

\define data_title()
$:/?data/{{$:/temp/person!!name.family}}/{{$:/temp/person!!name.middle}}/{{$:/temp/person!!name.given}}
\end

\define addProfile()

<$wikify name="person_data_title" text=<> >

<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $index=name.middle 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.middle}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $index=name.family 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.family}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $index=name.given 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.given}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<>/>


<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $field=name.middle 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.middle}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $field=name.family 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.family}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $field=name.given 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.given}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler=<> $field=tags 
$value={{$:/temp/person!!name.family}}/>



<$action-setfield $tiddler='$:/temp/person' name.family="" name.middle=""
name.given=""/>


<$action-sendmessage $message="tm-auto-save-wiki"/>
\end

Family name: <$edit-text class='tc-edit-texteditor' tiddler='$:/temp/person' 
field='name.family'/>


Middle name: <$edit-text class='tc-edit-texteditor' tiddler='$:/temp/person' 
field='name.middle'/>

Given name: <$edit-text class='tc-edit-texteditor' tiddler='$:/temp/person' 
field='name.given'/>



<$button actions=<> >Add 

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[tw5] Re: Can a <$button> be used to create a data tiddler?

[Watt]

Hi Chris
Do I understand what you want correctly?

Do you already have a lot of these genealogical records that you want to 
convert from fields to data tiddlers?

Do you want to keep the existing fields and extract their content into a data 
tiddler in the same tiddler's text area, for display convenience? 

or are you just starting to create these records and want to use a form for 
data input into a data tiddler structure?

Is your goal a unique data tiddler for each individual containing names, birth, 
baptism, burial?

How many individuals are you thinking of?

I'm only just exploring data tiddlers myself but here are some observations 
from a fellow beginner;

Data tiddlers are sometimes easier for input and readability but the data 
values can be more difficult to filter and manipulate for output.

Fields are sometimes difficult for readability but are much easier for 
manipulating and filtering output.

Data tiddlers can greatly reduce the number of tiddlers needed, they are 
readable and are easy to export but those benefits depend on how many records 
you need to create and how you structure them. 

If you make a data tiddler for each individual then you'll still create the 
same number of tiddlers as the fields method and might hit problems if there 
are identical names.

There are some useful tips on data tiddlers here;

https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/#datatiddler

Data tiddlers may not exist forever in their current form, see the discussion 
here;
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/TiddlyWiki/GqqPZnp6VMI

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Re: [tw5] Re: DataTiddler May be deprecated

[Watt]

Thanks Jeremy!

For any readers new to data tiddlers, here's an input box that should generate 
a diary-ish data tiddler. This example is automatically indexed with timestamps 
and you enter the diary event values; e.g 'got up', 'fed the cat' etc. 

Paste this code into a tiddler called Diary, (the data entered should then 
automatically save into a tiddler called diary_data). 


\define addEvent()
<$action-setfield $tiddler='diary_data' $index=<> 
$value={{$:/temp/dater!!event}}/>
<$action-setfield $tiddler='$:/temp/dater' name='' event=''/>
\end

Event: <$edit-text class='tc-edit-texteditor' tiddler='$:/temp/dater' 
field='event'/>


<$button actions=<> >Add 

{{diary_data}}



I lifted this from somewhere on the forum but unfortunately can't remember 
where, apologies. I like it because it only requires 2 tiddlers, it's 
uncomplicated and the data is easy to maintain. Yes, there are many other ways 
to achieve the same thing with TW.

How to subsequently manipulate the diary_data values is the challenge that 
complicates things. If you're interested several solutions are offered here;

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/TiddlyWiki/Sxf51oIyhuE

PMario's solution requires an alteration to the core code, a 'Pull Request', 
which is what prompted this discussion, but it doesn't look likely to happen 
given the deprecation sentence.

TonyM's solution does work as is, but requires the pre-release TW.

For those interested there are many other examples of data tiddlers on the 
forum and helpful usage tips exist on Mohammad's TWScripts site;

https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/#datatiddler

As Jeremy says data tiddlers aren't going to disappear overnight and plugins 
might very well appear that do the same job so it seems safe to continue to use 
them for a good while yet. 

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[tw5] Re: DataTiddler May be deprecated

[Watt]

Sadly, I've only just started using data tiddlers, having previously regarded 
them as esoteric tools for the wizards. They need better marketing.
I was getting very enthusiastic about them. 1 data tiddler potentially 
replacing 365 journal tiddlers, plus all the tiddlers linking to the journals. 
1 data tiddler holding all the notes on a book. 1 data tiddler with contacts 
etc. On a single file wiki, on a phone, they do seem to save tiddler space and 
are easy to use. What's not to like? I was kicking myself for not using them 
from the start.
Sometimes it's nice to be able to see all your information in one place. Not TW 
philosophy I know but.. sometimes it's nice to be able to see all your 
information in one place. Especially when it flows in a sequence.
However, I don't have the job of maintaining them in the Core, so maybe the 
problems outweigh these benefits, but imo 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. 

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[tw5] Re: Count data dictionary values

[Watt]

Thanks Mario, thanks Tony - I'll play with everything and become a data tiddler 
ninja.

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[tw5] Re: Count data dictionary values

[Watt]

Thank you TonyM and PMario for developing this further. It is much appreciated. 
Data tiddlers have always been a mystery to me but I'm beginning to see how 
useful they can be and anything that makes them more accessible is great for 
beginners.
 
The documentation for creating them, appending and editing them and then 
manipulating and extracting their index keys and values can take a bit of 
understanding. Anything that simplifies the process and provides more examples 
and clues is a big help for the uninitiated. If you're typing in a filter on a 
phone keyboard you also really appreciate simplicity.

PMario if you can, could I ask you for an example of how to count the '1's as 
per my original post? 

01: 0
02: 1
03: 1
04: 0
05: 1
06: 0

I've got it working with TonyM's method but not worked it out with your PR 
version. At the moment I'm more interested in manipulating values rather than 
keys so the many examples on your demo page help a lot, but the one example I 
needed wasn't there (always the case when I'm looking for examples!)

Thanks again guys, it's a valuable discussion.

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[tw5] Re: Using Voice Input TiddlyWiki

[Watt]

I'm  dictating  this  into the body of a Tiddler  using voice typing on Android 
and as you can see  accuracy  is nearly  100% . On my Android phone, in 
English, input to tiddlers with voice typing is easy and amazingly accurate. 
The problem is with navigation, you can't open a Tiddler using voice and moving 
around the Edit  interface  isn't possible. 
If it were possible to map  keyboard shortcuts to custom action buttons, and 
voice commands to keyboard shortcuts, that might work but some thumbs will 
always be needed I think. It would be another big leap for TW on Android when 
combined with Quinoid though. 
Steved may prefer a method of importing from Keep. Maybe somebody on the forum 
has experience of doing that. What formats does Keep export to Steved?

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[tw5] easy basic question on listing references of a tiddler

[Watt]

Hi steved

Do you mean the backlinks operator?

https://tiddlywiki.com/#backlinks%20Operator

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[tw5] Re: Count data dictionary values

[Watt]

Thanks for taking this further PMario! I'm only just getting to grips with data 
tiddlers but they seem to me to be similar to single column spreadsheets. They 
have an index and a single column of values, and each value 'slot' is similar 
to a spreadsheet's cell in just one column. 
If I create 2 or more data tiddlers with the same indexes then the number of 
value columns available to my 'spreadsheet' expands and 'cells' across both 
tiddlers can be referenced by {{distinctdatatiddlername##sharedindex}}.
In an ideal world I'd like to be able to sum those values but also to be able 
to carry out the other maths operations that a spreadsheet allows on individual 
values, ranges of values, groups of values that match a criteria etc - (i.e 
values filtered to meet a condition, across several data tiddlers).
I hope that makes some sort of sense. Just my 2 shrimps worth if you're 
thinking about formulating a pull request.

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[tw5] Re: Count data dictionary values

[Watt]

Thanks for taking this further PMario! Hope I'm not sounding like Forest Gump 
here but data tiddlers seem to me to be similar to single column spreadsheets. 
They have an index and a single column of values, and each value 'slot' is 
similar to a spreadsheet's cell in just one column. 
If I create 2 or more data tiddlers with the same indexes then the number of 
value columns available to my 'spreadsheet' expands and 'cells' across both 
tiddlers can be referenced by {{distinctdatatiddlername##sharedindex}}.
In an ideal world I'd like to be able to sum those values but also to be able 
to carry out the other maths operations that a spreadsheet allows on individual 
values, ranges of values, groups of values that match a criteria etc - (i.e 
values filtered to meet a condition, across several data tiddlers).
I hope that makes some sort of sense. Just my 2 shrimps worth if you're 
thinking about formulating a pull request.

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[tw5] Re: Count data dictionary values

[Watt]

Will do. All working on the pre-release so far. Thanks again, enjoy that snow.

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[tw5] Re: Count data dictionary values

[Watt]

Thank you so much TonyM! Those are very useful solutions which I would never 
have worked out myself. I'm sure others will find them helpful too - adding and 
counting data tiddler values must be a common requirement but I couldn't find 
anything on the forum. My run stats are now reborn. "Life is like a box of 
chocolates".

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[tw5] Count data dictionary values

[Watt]

Thanks TonyM, yes it's a data tiddler with index:value pairs. 

01:1
02:0
03:1
04:1
05:0
etc.

Any clues on counting the '1' values much appreciated. 

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[tw5] Count data dictionary values

[Watt]

I'm experimenting with data dictionaries and have one that records runs 
completed. It has dates 01 to 31 as the index and either 0 or 1 as a value, 1 
indicating a run completed on that date. e.g

01:1 
02:0 
03:1 etc

Runs completed=2

I'd like to count those '1' values in order to get a total of runs completed, 
but I'm stumped. Does anybody know how to count, add or mathematically 
manipulate data dictionary values? I'm using the pre-release version. Thanks.

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[tw5] Re: Play several songs consecutively

[Watt]

Thanks very much for this Bimlas, it's great. Very useful for podcasts!

Here's some feedback on some teething problems I'm getting, sounds negative but 
it's not meant to:

I'm using it on my phone and the latest version is giving a RSOD on video 
playback on duckduckgo browser (not on firefox) - "ResizeObserver loop limit 
exceeded". The video plays but with the rsod above it.
 
Possibly related. Videos don't resize to my phone screen size. Is it possible 
to add autoresize?

On a phone the buttons are a little small. For me the sidebar is unlikely to be 
used as a home for the player. Is an option to choose bigger buttons possible? 
The tabs option you mention above won't work so well on mobiles either, imo.

After a search - eg all videos - a playlist appears below, but it won't start 
playing until I select the first item and then hit play. I think hitting play 
should start playing the list immediately. One tap less!

I prefer the original play/pause button style myself, rather than play/red, but 
others may disagree.

You've got a typo on 'Matches'.

The image slideshow is nice, I'm looking forward to future developments, thanks 
again!

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Re: [tw5] Release of Navigator Theme (beta) & a predecessor as a bonus

[Watt]

Very nice on mobile, thanks a lot Thomas! It's sparking joy.

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[tw5] Re: Help with testing the TiddlyWiki Link

[Watt]

You could try upgrading. It is easy to do, but back-up your wiki first.

https://tiddlywiki.com/#Upgrading

Good luck

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[tw5] Re: Help with testing the TiddlyWiki Link

[Watt]

Hi Adrian
Working here on a phone and laptop,  no error messages but slow to open - 
23 seconds. Like pmario says, you need a relaxing splash screen. Site is 
looking good though, it's worth the wait.

On Thursday, 28 March 2019 08:37:59 UTC, Adrian Kee wrote:
>
> Hi friends, 
> i need help in testing whether this TiddlyWiki link is workable in 
> different computers worldwide.   I noticed a Internal JavaScript error in 
> some. 
>
> https://repository.nie.edu.sg/bitstream/10497/20862/3/Mindfulness_TM_2017.html
> let me know if you have trouble accessing. 
> thanks in advance. 
> adrian
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: TW5: Indirect referencing for external files

[Watt]

No, it doesn't show up in my plugin list either. I think it might be a macro 
that has aspirations to plugindom. 

If you look in the sidebar tabs > More > System then scroll down you should see 
a tiddler called plugin/TWaddle/richlinks/main and then several richlinks 
related tiddlers including a .dictionary tiddler if it's installed ok. 

You shouldn't need to touch any of them. I think I once added an entry to 
.dictionary to cater for .MP4 uppercase. It works for me but you'll just have 
to try it on 5.15.

Try this in a tiddler to test it's working
>


If it plays and if you're on android try:

<>

Good luck.

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[tw5] Re: TW5: Indirect referencing for external files

[Watt]

This works for me on Android and desktop and does several other formats beside 
video which might be useful for your project.

http://richlinks.tiddlyspot.com

On android my filename looks something like this, but I think it works with 
relative paths too;

<>

Search the forum for 'richlinks'.

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[tw5] Re: Quinoid v0.0.8alpha Downloadable, Configurable Resources

[Watt]

Thank you Mark the geo apk works for me. 

I had already allowed location permissions to the previous version so can't say 
if it prompts for location or not. No prompts popped up anyway.

The wiki does now receive location info and acquires geo points via the geoloc 
macro and displays maps via leaflet. All working.

Thanks very much once again. I can't point you to the geoloc macro but it's on 
the forum. I installed it a long time ago and it was quite a challenge to get 
it working but it does work very well for me now. I would caution anyone 
experimenting to try it on empty test wikis first though, the version I used 
had a tendency to permanently lock up your wiki if everything wasn't exactly 
right. Maybe it's been updated since then.

It works on Quinoid for me now - great stuff!

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[tw5] Re: Tiddler Commander: Release Candidate

[Watt]

It'll be the Ecosia browser I was using - I tried firefox and it was fine, no 
javascript error. Thanks Mohammad.

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[tw5] Re: Tiddler Commander: Release Candidate

[Watt]

It still gives me the red javascript error message when I close those 2 
tiddlers Mohammad. I don't do anything else. I'm looking at it on a phone 
though - if nobody else gets it then it's probably just me. I'll wait and see.

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[tw5] Re: Tiddler Commander: Release Candidate

[Watt]

You're right, it's there. 
A strange anomaly looking at it today though, if I click Home, I then have 2 
tiddlers open - Tiddler Commander and $:/Commander. If I close them both I'm 
getting the red java error message. Click Home again and it disappears, 
replaced by the 2 tiddlers. Is it just me?

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[tw5] Re: Tiddler Commander: Release Candidate

[Watt]

Great stuff Mohammad, it's looking very good and will be an essential plugin 
for me. 
What about a link to Tiddler Commander itself on that front page? 
https://kookma.github.io/TW-Commander/#%24%3A%2FCommander 






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[tw5] Re: Tiddler Commander: A Tiddler Toolkit

[Watt]

Hi Mohammad

Tiddler Commander is looking better all the time. You are so prolific it is 
hard to keep up with you! Thanks for your persistent efforts and developing 
this very useful tool.

I have two requests to try and slow you down!

1. Is easy. Could you include a footer on all your forum posts with links to 
your project homepages? The forum here moves on quickly and it's not always 
easy backtracking to find the links.

2. Not so easy, but I would like to second Tony's suggestion above:

"Can I suggest in each tiddler with a macro not dedicated to Commander, that 
you add the field macro-macroname where macro name is exactly how it is named. 
Then in the field macro-macroname add the format .
<> Describe and tell them about the parameters

You can then list all fields with the prefix "macro-" display there format and 
the tiddler in which they are defined."

Maybe this list could be incorporated and promoted here:
https://kookma.github.io/TW-Commander/#Index%20of%20TW5%20batch%20operations

At the moment the Commander uses many useful and applicable filters that would 
serve as wonderful examples for TW users of all levels, but the magic is by 
necessity hidden within the workings of the machine.

As a perpetual beginner I would love to see the mechanics explained a little 
more or at least be a little more accessible to users who would like to apply 
them in their own projects.

As Tony suggests, appropriate id fields, maybe combined with structured 
templates for each macro/filter category, might allow a separate tiddler for 
each description and allow you to generate an illustrative library of filters 
and macros. With a working Tiddler Commander to show them in action!

Maybe with the addition of a brief explanation of the role of filters and 
macros in TW you would be producing an invaluable practical tool and an 
educational resource at the same time. That nobel prize could be within reach 
Mohammad!

All easier said than done I'm sure. I told you I was trying to slow you down ;) 
If all that sounds like too much would simply adding a small info button to 
Tiddler Commander that shows the full filter currently being applied be 
possible? (Not just the user input part eg 'tag[xx]' but the fully constructed 
filter).

In any event keep up the great work and thanks for Tiddler Commander.






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[tw5] Re: Quinoid v0.0.8alpha Downloadable, Configurable Resources

[Watt]

Hi Mark,

I got the json edit to work. 

Some feedback;
Closing Quinoid via the '3 dots menu > exit' and then reopening it doesn't 
refresh the file list or the Resources (json) list for me.

Closing Quinoid via the Android method, using Home button, then clear recent 
apps and then reopen Quinoid does refresh both wiki list and Resources list.

I used this line for the json prerelease edit;

{"id":"https:\/\/tiddlywiki.com\/prerelease\/empty","title":"Pre (PRE 
Release)","description":"An empty edition of the PRE-release from the 
TiddlyWiki site.","filestem":"prerelease"}

Success!

I now notice that I must have tapped on 'Help' 3 times and downloaded 3 copies 
of the Help file, all of which appear in the file list after the full refresh. 
I do need help but it seems duplicate resource downloads all appear with the 
same names in Quinoid's list and only have the timestamp to differentiate them 
in the TWfiles folder. Confusion might reign! Maybe something to add to your 
'complications' list?

Anyway, it now works perfectly for me and keeps getting better. Big thanks.






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[tw5] Re: Quinoid v0.0.8alpha Downloadable, Configurable Resources

[Watt]

Hi Mark - successful here, Android 7.
Allowed install from unknown sources.
Installed over the top of existing Quinoid. Message 'do you want to update an 
existing package?' - yes.
Storage and location permissions were still on from previous version.

Opened fine with my file list still there.
Wikis seem to be working as before.

Went to 3 dots>Resources and added them all. All downloaded and were added to 
the list. All opened ok.

Checked the TWfiles folder and all there, including the json file.

Edited the json file with this line,

{"id":"https:\/\/tiddlywiki.com\/prerelease\/empty.html","title":"Empty (PRE 
Release)","description":"An empty edition of the PRE-release from the 
TiddlyWiki site.","filestem":"empty"},

Reloaded Quinoid but the prerelease isn't listed in Resources. The others still 
are. That's the only thing that's tripped me up so far, so will try again, 
otherwise 100% success!

'Shares' still working well too.

Hope this helps, thanks a lot for this great app.

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[tw5] Re: Section Names using ID for internal Links

[Watt]

Hi S. S.

I looked at your docs and was convinced I could make them shorter. Now 
after several hours I realise how bleedin difficult it is to write concise, 
comprehensible docs. I salute your achievement!

I've attached my attempt but it's not much of an improvement as regards 
brevity or comprehensibilitytion. I've also messed around with all your 
headings so, not only is it nearly the same length, it will also cost you 
some time re-doing the anchor links. I won't be offended if you decline the 
'assistance'.

Thanks for the anchor link addition to TW anyway, it's a useful feature. 
Rgds.
  

On Monday, 11 March 2019 06:24:59 UTC, S. S. wrote:
>
>
> I believe the Documentation for this  (bug) transformed into a *feature* 
> is just about ready.
>
> But that is not for me alone to decide - it's for all here who read the 
> docs to see if it's explained clearly and properly.
>
> Any comments/additions/corrections/criticisms would be appreciated, 
> specially suggestions for making it shorter (something I have trouble 
> achieving).
>
> The tiddler has been renamed to: Anchor Links using HTML 
> 
>
> Regards.
>
>

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Anchor docs.json
Description: application/json

[tw5] Re: TiddlyWiki Use case: Presenting collection of publication records by topics

[Watt]

Thanks for posting this Adrian. On the TW side I agree with S.S. - breaking 
everything down into smaller units might be another possible refinement. For 
example a straight bibliographic list, in one place, of all the sources that 
you have finally used and classified would be interesting. It might be easier 
to produce from sources broken down to individual tiddler units and fields. 
(But maybe more complicated and time-consuming to manage, cut and paste gets 
the job done too.)
>From a reader point of view I'd be interested to read a brief description of 
>probabilistic topic modelling and your methodology. Thanks again, it's a very 
>interesting resource.

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[tw5] Re: Confused about CodeMirror plugins

[Watt]

Nice! Thanks PMario.

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