Re: [tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[HansWobbe]

Richard ... Thank you very much for posting this ...

Vannevar Bush's essay was an interesting read and good food for thought. 
> It's online here if anyone else is interested 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/
> .
>
> My favourite line was this one:
>
> "The world has arrived at an age of cheap complex devices of great 
> reliability; and something is bound to come of it."
>
> I think he was right!
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>
> On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 7:13:33 PM UTC+10, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> Back in 2005/6, tiddlywiki.com had quite a prominent PayPal donation 
>> button. Over the course of a year it accrued enough money for me to buy a 
>> decent camera, which was quite a thrill at the time. Then, in 2007, I sold 
>> my company Osmosoft to BT and I felt that having just profited from 
>> TiddlyWiki it wasn’t appropriate for me to be asking for money.
>>
>> Over the following years, my views changed even more. The fundamental 
>> thing I realised was that it was wrong to see the TiddlyWiki community as a 
>> group from whom I can extract money. It was better for me to view the 
>> community as my partners in making TiddlyWiki better. Without the 
>> enthusiasm of the community no doubt I personally would have lost impetus a 
>> long time ago. More than that, it’s the contributions made by others that 
>> makes TiddlyWiki so interesting and useful. Whether those contributions 
>> take the form of code, documentation, or just chewing the fat with others 
>> in the community, it’s the community that breathes life into the project.
>>
>> So, now, building on that idea, rather than seeking to make money *from* 
>> the community, I’m much more interested in making money *with* the 
>> community.
>>
>> One simple scenario in which that might happen can be illustrated with 
>> one of my favourite examples of a TW5 edition. It’s tool to help teach 
>> volleyball students to high school students:
>>
>>
>> http://pespot.tiddlyspot.com/#Task%201:%5B%5BTask%201%5D%5D%20%5B%5BTask%205%5D%5D%20%5B%5BContent%205%5D%5D%209
>>  
>> 
>>
>> There’s a few things I think worthy of note:
>>
>> * As far as I know, the creator of PESpot is not a software developer. 
>> Nonetheless, they’ve been able to build the system themselves (perhaps with 
>> the help of the community), rather than having to engage a software 
>> developer and then explain to them what they want. The difference is 
>> profound. When you engage an outsider to build your system you’ve 
>> introduced a communication gap into the system: experience shows that it is 
>> very hard to describe the requirements of a system that doesn’t exist yet. 
>> In contrast, with TiddlyWiki, the author was able to combine their own 
>> expertise in the domain with the ability to build the system by incremental 
>> trial and error. The incremental approach allows the author to learn by 
>> doing, and removes the need for them to be able to state the full 
>> requirements up front. For me, that is the enduring magic of TiddlyWiki: to 
>> empower people to build their own digital tools without being a 
>> conventional software developer
>>
>> * There’s really no business model for building tools that are so 
>> specific to a particular niche. It’s hard to imagine raising VC funding for 
>> a software company specialising in high school volleyball
>>
>> * Although the author was able to successfully build this tool in 
>> TiddlyWiki, it’s nature as a single file edition puts a limit on its ease 
>> of use. But imagine taking this same wiki and putting in on a server with 
>> user accounts and billing. Then the author could sell it as a service that 
>> individual high school volleyball coaches could sign up for
>>
>> So, I think that what is needed here is a sort of wholesale version of 
>> TiddlySpace that enables anyone to drop a working single file TiddlyWiki 
>> into the system and spin up a full multi-user environment, with user 
>> accounts, payments and so on.
>>
>> My immediate interest in this new model stems from the progress I’ve made 
>> with Federatial over the last year.  My current model is essentially 
>> selling bespoke TiddlyWiki-based products and services to business 
>> customers. The real value that customers are paying for is the custom 
>> development but there’s also a hosting component because I’m hosting some 
>> services on behalf of clients. The custom development services are not 
>> cheap because it is so labour intensive.
>>
>> My end game is to offer a conventional paid online service that gives 
>> users the features of TiddlyWiki in an easy-to-use and much more flexible 
>> online form. I’m currently using “Xememex” as the codename for this new 
>> service. (It comes from the term “memex” coined by Vannevar Bush in his 
>> 1945 essay “As We May Think”).
>>
>> My target audience for Xememex is not confined to 

Re: [tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[RichardWilliamSmith]

Hi Jeremy,

How exciting. I hope you make a success of it, as I really feel you deserve 
to. If there's any way we can help, I hope you'll let us know.

Vannevar Bush's essay was an interesting read and good food for thought. 
It's online here if anyone else is interested 
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/07/as-we-may-think/303881/.

My favourite line was this one:

"The world has arrived at an age of cheap complex devices of great 
reliability; and something is bound to come of it."

I think he was right!

Regards,
Richard

On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 7:13:33 PM UTC+10, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Back in 2005/6, tiddlywiki.com had quite a prominent PayPal donation 
> button. Over the course of a year it accrued enough money for me to buy a 
> decent camera, which was quite a thrill at the time. Then, in 2007, I sold 
> my company Osmosoft to BT and I felt that having just profited from 
> TiddlyWiki it wasn’t appropriate for me to be asking for money.
>
> Over the following years, my views changed even more. The fundamental 
> thing I realised was that it was wrong to see the TiddlyWiki community as a 
> group from whom I can extract money. It was better for me to view the 
> community as my partners in making TiddlyWiki better. Without the 
> enthusiasm of the community no doubt I personally would have lost impetus a 
> long time ago. More than that, it’s the contributions made by others that 
> makes TiddlyWiki so interesting and useful. Whether those contributions 
> take the form of code, documentation, or just chewing the fat with others 
> in the community, it’s the community that breathes life into the project.
>
> So, now, building on that idea, rather than seeking to make money *from* 
> the community, I’m much more interested in making money *with* the 
> community.
>
> One simple scenario in which that might happen can be illustrated with one 
> of my favourite examples of a TW5 edition. It’s tool to help teach 
> volleyball students to high school students:
>
>
> http://pespot.tiddlyspot.com/#Task%201:%5B%5BTask%201%5D%5D%20%5B%5BTask%205%5D%5D%20%5B%5BContent%205%5D%5D%209
>  
> 
>
> There’s a few things I think worthy of note:
>
> * As far as I know, the creator of PESpot is not a software developer. 
> Nonetheless, they’ve been able to build the system themselves (perhaps with 
> the help of the community), rather than having to engage a software 
> developer and then explain to them what they want. The difference is 
> profound. When you engage an outsider to build your system you’ve 
> introduced a communication gap into the system: experience shows that it is 
> very hard to describe the requirements of a system that doesn’t exist yet. 
> In contrast, with TiddlyWiki, the author was able to combine their own 
> expertise in the domain with the ability to build the system by incremental 
> trial and error. The incremental approach allows the author to learn by 
> doing, and removes the need for them to be able to state the full 
> requirements up front. For me, that is the enduring magic of TiddlyWiki: to 
> empower people to build their own digital tools without being a 
> conventional software developer
>
> * There’s really no business model for building tools that are so specific 
> to a particular niche. It’s hard to imagine raising VC funding for a 
> software company specialising in high school volleyball
>
> * Although the author was able to successfully build this tool in 
> TiddlyWiki, it’s nature as a single file edition puts a limit on its ease 
> of use. But imagine taking this same wiki and putting in on a server with 
> user accounts and billing. Then the author could sell it as a service that 
> individual high school volleyball coaches could sign up for
>
> So, I think that what is needed here is a sort of wholesale version of 
> TiddlySpace that enables anyone to drop a working single file TiddlyWiki 
> into the system and spin up a full multi-user environment, with user 
> accounts, payments and so on.
>
> My immediate interest in this new model stems from the progress I’ve made 
> with Federatial over the last year.  My current model is essentially 
> selling bespoke TiddlyWiki-based products and services to business 
> customers. The real value that customers are paying for is the custom 
> development but there’s also a hosting component because I’m hosting some 
> services on behalf of clients. The custom development services are not 
> cheap because it is so labour intensive.
>
> My end game is to offer a conventional paid online service that gives 
> users the features of TiddlyWiki in an easy-to-use and much more flexible 
> online form. I’m currently using “Xememex” as the codename for this new 
> service. (It comes from the term “memex” coined by Vannevar Bush in his 
> 1945 essay “As We May Think”).
>
> My target audience for Xememex is not confined to existing 

[tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

a) This would probably prevent most low-key, small-scale use cases of 
> TiddlyWiki in a company. If only one or two employees would occasionally 
> take notes in TiddlyWiki, the company probably wouldn't go through the 
> hassle of purchasing a licence for them. They would rather ban the software 
> outright. It's not just about the cost of the licence, but also because of 
> the bureaucracy involved in adding another piece of software to the "pool". 
> The IT department would probably be forced to track all "installations", 
> make sure they are up to date etc. (simply because it's the usual process). 
> This is also the reason why companies might be more likely to pay for a 
> "hosted" solution. 


Yes. This is exactly what I was trying to explain. In large companies, 
productivity isn't nearly as important as continuity. All the IT managers 
care about is that a mega-virus doesn't occur on their watch. In some 
companies all the software that is available has to be approved and 
stitched into a large block that's part of each station's boot cycle. And, 
whenever a software program is started a boot program searches the net to 
make sure that a license is legally available (the company will only buy a 
limited number of licenses).  You can say "it's just a web page" but today 
with constantly evolving threats the admin can't be sure that that ensures 
security. And certainly, if you need (want) it to run on node.js it's no 
longer just a web page. One can only imagine an IT admin's alarm at 
discovering that there is a surreptitious web server running on her network.

Mark

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Re: [tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[Jeremy Ruston]

Back in 2005/6, tiddlywiki.com  had quite a prominent 
PayPal donation button. Over the course of a year it accrued enough money for 
me to buy a decent camera, which was quite a thrill at the time. Then, in 2007, 
I sold my company Osmosoft to BT and I felt that having just profited from 
TiddlyWiki it wasn’t appropriate for me to be asking for money.

Over the following years, my views changed even more. The fundamental thing I 
realised was that it was wrong to see the TiddlyWiki community as a group from 
whom I can extract money. It was better for me to view the community as my 
partners in making TiddlyWiki better. Without the enthusiasm of the community 
no doubt I personally would have lost impetus a long time ago. More than that, 
it’s the contributions made by others that makes TiddlyWiki so interesting and 
useful. Whether those contributions take the form of code, documentation, or 
just chewing the fat with others in the community, it’s the community that 
breathes life into the project.

So, now, building on that idea, rather than seeking to make money *from* the 
community, I’m much more interested in making money *with* the community.

One simple scenario in which that might happen can be illustrated with one of 
my favourite examples of a TW5 edition. It’s tool to help teach volleyball 
students to high school students:

http://pespot.tiddlyspot.com/#Task%201:%5B%5BTask%201%5D%5D%20%5B%5BTask%205%5D%5D%20%5B%5BContent%205%5D%5D%209
 

There’s a few things I think worthy of note:

* As far as I know, the creator of PESpot is not a software developer. 
Nonetheless, they’ve been able to build the system themselves (perhaps with the 
help of the community), rather than having to engage a software developer and 
then explain to them what they want. The difference is profound. When you 
engage an outsider to build your system you’ve introduced a communication gap 
into the system: experience shows that it is very hard to describe the 
requirements of a system that doesn’t exist yet. In contrast, with TiddlyWiki, 
the author was able to combine their own expertise in the domain with the 
ability to build the system by incremental trial and error. The incremental 
approach allows the author to learn by doing, and removes the need for them to 
be able to state the full requirements up front. For me, that is the enduring 
magic of TiddlyWiki: to empower people to build their own digital tools without 
being a conventional software developer

* There’s really no business model for building tools that are so specific to a 
particular niche. It’s hard to imagine raising VC funding for a software 
company specialising in high school volleyball

* Although the author was able to successfully build this tool in TiddlyWiki, 
it’s nature as a single file edition puts a limit on its ease of use. But 
imagine taking this same wiki and putting in on a server with user accounts and 
billing. Then the author could sell it as a service that individual high school 
volleyball coaches could sign up for

So, I think that what is needed here is a sort of wholesale version of 
TiddlySpace that enables anyone to drop a working single file TiddlyWiki into 
the system and spin up a full multi-user environment, with user accounts, 
payments and so on.

My immediate interest in this new model stems from the progress I’ve made with 
Federatial over the last year.  My current model is essentially selling bespoke 
TiddlyWiki-based products and services to business customers. The real value 
that customers are paying for is the custom development but there’s also a 
hosting component because I’m hosting some services on behalf of clients. The 
custom development services are not cheap because it is so labour intensive.

My end game is to offer a conventional paid online service that gives users the 
features of TiddlyWiki in an easy-to-use and much more flexible online form. 
I’m currently using “Xememex” as the codename for this new service. (It comes 
from the term “memex” coined by Vannevar Bush in his 1945 essay “As We May 
Think”).

My target audience for Xememex is not confined to existing TiddlyWiki users. 
Ultimately, I’d like it to be a truly mass market system, with Trello perhaps 
being a model for how things might go.

However, I’m quite a few months away from having all the necessary 
infrastructure to do Xememex as a retailer at scale, not the least of which is 
billing and payments.

So, to summarise, I think the opportunities for me right now are:

1) Finding new corporate clients who want bespoke development around 
TiddlyWiki-based online services
2) Finding TiddlyWiki community members who are interested in partnering to 
turn TiddlyWiki-based solutions that they have already built into a commercial 
service

All the while, of course, building towards my ultimate goal of a retail service.

Best wishes

Jeremy

[tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[stefct4]

Hi Richard, 

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 11:58:54 PM UTC+2, RichardWilliamSmith 
wrote:
>
> What if Tiddlywiki had a licence that meant you had to pay Jeremy if you 
> wanted to use it for anything work related? (https://licensezero.com/)
>

I'm not sure this is a good idea for the following two reasons:

a) This would probably prevent most low-key, small-scale use cases of 
TiddlyWiki in a company. If only one or two employees would occasionally 
take notes in TiddlyWiki, the company probably wouldn't go through the 
hassle of purchasing a licence for them. They would rather ban the software 
outright. It's not just about the cost of the licence, but also because of 
the bureaucracy involved in adding another piece of software to the "pool". 
The IT department would probably be forced to track all "installations", 
make sure they are up to date etc. (simply because it's the usual process). 
This is also the reason why companies might be more likely to pay for a 
"hosted" solution. 

b) If somebody was sent a TiddlyWiki file (containing data, notes etc.) to 
their company account and opened it without having paid for TiddlyWiki, 
would they violate the licence? What about visiting a web page with a 
hosted TiddlyWiki? Technically, by loading the code into your browser, you 
would be "using" the software. What if you downloaded the wiki to your 
local computer? What if you added a note? TiddlyWiki mixes content and 
code. Therefore I believe TiddlyWiki can only work with a "permissive" open 
source licence. Even the GPL might cause trouble, due to copyleft.

Cheers,

Stef 

 

>
> Of course such a thing would be difficult to 'enforce' but I bet there are 
> quite a few people using it at work or for work-related activities who 
> would quite easily be able to have their employer pay $50-$250 (or ?) for 
> the right to do so. I imagine that the average office already pays out 
> thousands in licences to Microsoft et al, on top of the machines 
> themselves, and this would be a drop in the ocean.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>
>

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[tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[TonyM]

All,

I have a lot of faith in People, on the whole, to recognize and reward. 
Until recently I was on a good wage and did a lot to support others, I am 
now seeking to make an income from IT Services and Consulting 
(Sydney/Canberra/Internet) and I have suddenly gone shy on asking for money 
which will not allow me to make a "right livelihood" so I need to work 
something out.

The fact is given the opportunity, people do contribute time and money 
contrary to so called "rational economic models", to things they appreciate 
and love. Perhaps as a community we could set up a donations process with 
monies sent to a general fund that can be applied to tiddlywiki as a whole, 
and to individual plugin and editions creators. Personally I wish to build 
a large range of business, thinking and creativity tools on tiddlywiki for 
both personal business use and for distribution. I do not intend to make 
millions from it but I would hope some return may be possible to help 
sustain me going forward. 

I am very aware however such solutions stand on the shoulders of giants, 
and we need to maintain the open and freeware, sensibilities. Except in 
some specific cases I would expect to make tools open to the community 
(with a donation request) and a small cost to deliver finished products to 
the public, or at least capture their contact details for further marketing 
of other services.

I would love to know a mechanism was available to make micropayments. Lets 
say I built a business tool for "Business impact analysis", I could bundle 
it with consulting services and sell it for say $250 (even although it can 
be found in the public domain, I would help them access/use/apply customise 
it for them. Now Imaging if $50 went to my Costs, $100 to my time, $50 for 
website, design and publicity and $50 into a fund, that fund would be 
distributed to general tiddly wiki development support (Decided by Jeremy 
and a Committee), and micro payments into accounts for plugin / edition 
developers who's work was used. Of course such funds can be returned to the 
community by authors.

There is a governance issue, which needs to be addressed to ensure any 
money goes where it deserves to, but any such process lives or dies on its 
reputation.

We could also set up bounty or commission based requests that people can 
fund along with a prize driven approach. The idea is a few people nominate 
a solution they would like eg; A book Library Catalogue, they then donate a 
small sum to a fund which is then judged and awarded on a sliding scale to 
the best solutions tendered by the community, a competition model. We could 
also use the crowd-sourcing model here.

The only problems we face are our imagination, execution and dealing with 
the "ethics" and loose "ownership" issues.. How can we get a quorum, or 
agreement to start?

Yours Thoughtfully,

Tony

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[tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[@TiddlyTweeter]

RichardWS

I would actually like this was real.

I want to underline this theme connects to me.

I like that people can make a living from what they love and do well. I 
benefit a lot from computing folk because I could not possibly do it 
myself. 

I would be quite happy to pay YOU and MARK S. too. Where's YOUR PayPal?

I am very good at other things than computing stuff but you will NEVER get 
that skill from me for free. Never, ever. That is my living. What I do, you 
can't do. That is why it will cost you.

Much of the world of open source has a sub-Bambi understanding of dosh. It 
borders on self-immolation sometimes. Anthropologically open source is a 
strange world of certain kinds of fetishes. Quite what they are I'm 
investigating slowly. :->

Ciao
Josiah


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[tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mark S.

Tones of Dallas (theme tune ) 
... I think you in a hot sweat over nothing. @Jermolene is as likely to 
give a PayPal account interface for his doings as Gandhi was in having a 
pot-roast.

J, x

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[tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

[@TiddlyTweeter]

RichardWS

I think its a good basic principle. IN FACT some of the issue you will find 
is actually about having a CLEAR MECHANISM to pay through, rather than just 
what it is for.

Same thing with Arlen. He could do with support for TiddlyServer. BUT you  
CAN'T SUPPORT SOMEONE if you they don't give you their PayPal or whatever 
account. I had to DIG IT OUT myself to promote it for him.

Best wishes
Josiah

On Wednesday, 20 September 2017 23:58:54 UTC+2, RichardWilliamSmith wrote:
>
> What if Tiddlywiki had a licence that meant you had to pay Jeremy if you 
> wanted to use it for anything work related? (https://licensezero.com/)
>
> Of course such a thing would be difficult to 'enforce' but I bet there are 
> quite a few people using it at work or for work-related activities who 
> would quite easily be able to have their employer pay $50-$250 (or ?) for 
> the right to do so. I imagine that the average office already pays out 
> thousands in licences to Microsoft et al, on top of the machines 
> themselves, and this would be a drop in the ocean.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>
>

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[tw] Re: A thought about licensing and money

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Your employers must have been much more open-minded than the ones I've ever 
had. Most of the ones I've known would immediately demand that you strip 
all vestiges of the software off your machine. 

Employers are willing to pay for MS products because:

1) They understand and recognize the value of the products
2) MS has strong DRM protection
3) For very large companies MS has auditing/investigative procedures in 
place (or at least that's what I've been told).

Mark 

On Wednesday, September 20, 2017 at 2:58:54 PM UTC-7, RichardWilliamSmith 
wrote:
>
> What if Tiddlywiki had a licence that meant you had to pay Jeremy if you 
> wanted to use it for anything work related? (https://licensezero.com/)
>
> Of course such a thing would be difficult to 'enforce' but I bet there are 
> quite a few people using it at work or for work-related activities who 
> would quite easily be able to have their employer pay $50-$250 (or ?) for 
> the right to do so. I imagine that the average office already pays out 
> thousands in licences to Microsoft et al, on top of the machines 
> themselves, and this would be a drop in the ocean.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards,
> Richard
>
>

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