subject:"\[tw5\] Re\: BUG\? \-\- In\-Tiddler "

[tw5] Re: BUG? -- In-Tiddler

2019-11-24 Thread PMario

Short version: 

The wikitext syntax and the parser contain some inconsistencies, because 
there are some main goals, which "rules them all"

 - Prose text should be without any "formatting markers"
 - Wikitext should be human readable, even if _not_ rendered
 - Formatting markers should be unintrusive
- eg: ''bold''  //italic// ...

Those main goals cause a lot of "missing" information for computers. ... 
Our "super computer" (the brain) on the other hand can still make sense of 
it, because of sheer calculation power (not speed ;).

In comparison, most datacenters are still stupid.

... There is some hope!

Longer version ;)

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 7:53:18 PM UTC+1, TiddlyTweeter wrote:

> The problem is that the rule is NOT consistent. Works ... & does not
>
> !! Working
> <<<
> Working
> <<<
>
>
This works, since tw tries to "be nice"

I personally would consider a heading starter !! without 2 new-lines at the 
end to be a syntax error. But that's only my point of view and there would 
be many complains, if we would enforce it. 

TW is able to detect a heading with a !! start and 1 new-line at the end... 
since we don't allow multi-line headings. 

If we would allow them, the above code wouldn't work.

---

You are comparing apples with pears here. 

The above would need to be as follows to compare the same tings.

This text starts a paragraph
!! This text should start a heading - but it doesn't since the paragraph 
isn't finished yet. 

The same rule is applied to the text below. 

The text with 1 new-line indicates a paragraph start. So the TW-parser 
searches for the end of the paragraph. -> 2 new-lines
Since 2 new-lines are found after the "heading" it includes the "heading 
text" into the paragraph. 

So the heading isn't detected. Same thing is true for your second example.

But this does not ...
>

> Not Working
> <<<
> Not working
> <<<
>
>
There are some more inconsistencies in the wikitext creation, which are 
"caused" by - how the TW parser works. It's a regexp based parser, which is 
optimized for speed and "code simplicity".

If you write plain wikitext, the content should be human readable, even 
without rendering. So if users get some "raw text" snippets, they should be 
able to make sense of the text. 

... But this fact, also makes "format detection" harder for programmers, 
because wikitext should not be "polluted" with markers. So some times we 
have to "guess" ... which may be wrong.

Basically, there is a "start sequence" and an "end sequence" defined. Some 
rules start a "block mode" like <<< ..

If a block mode is active, the "content" between start and end is wikified 
again. This allows us to detect eg: "!! heading" within a blockquote. and 
so on ...

As long as "block mode" is active other blocks can be "nested". 

But as soon as the parser internal state is "inline mode" it only detects 
formatting like eg: ''bold'' ... That's the reason, why the 
transclusion-widget  and some 
others, have a mode parameter: block / inline. Which tells the parser, what 
it should do, because "guessing" may cause the wrong decision. 

I hope that makes sense.

have fun!
mario

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[tw5] Re: BUG? -- In-Tiddler

2019-11-23 Thread TiddlyTweeter

The problem is that the rule is NOT consistent. Works ... & does not

!! Working
<<<
Working
<<<

RENDER 

[image: Annotation 2019-11-23 194650.jpg]


But this does not ...

Not Working
<<<
Not working
<<<

RENDER 

[image: Annotation 2019-11-23 194755.jpg]

Why?
TT 

PMario wrote:

> There is a fundamental difference between tw-wikitext and HTML.  
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: BUG? -- In-Tiddler

2019-11-23 Thread TiddlyTweeter

Are you SURE this is so clear to novice users?

On Saturday, 23 November 2019 17:07:24 UTC+1, PMario wrote:
>
> On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 2:36:03 PM UTC+1, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
> ...
>
>> Is that to do with the appearance of excess "**" under Type: "
>> *text/vnd.tiddlywiki*" ?
>>
>
> There is a fundamental difference between tw-wikitext and HTML. 
>
>  - As per definition in wikitext "whitespace matters"
>
>  - As per definition in HTML "whitespace is ignored"  
>
> Those 2 fundamentals won't go together. ... ever...
>
> In "text/vnd.tiddlywiki" the "whitespace matters" rule will take 
> precedence. Except if the \whitespace trim pragma is used.
>
> So TW templates which contain a lot of html should always start with 
> \whitespace 
> trim. UI templates are special, for this reason.
>
> In all other cases, where you don't use the pragma, wikitext rules will be 
> applied. 
>
> text/vnd.tiddlywiki allows us to include text/html ... but the rules are 
> txt/vnd.tiddlywiki. 
>
> -mario
>

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[tw5] Re: BUG? -- In-Tiddler

2019-11-23 Thread PMario

On Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 2:36:03 PM UTC+1, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
...

> Is that to do with the appearance of excess "**" under Type: "
> *text/vnd.tiddlywiki*" ?
>

There is a fundamental difference between tw-wikitext and HTML. 

 - As per definition in wikitext "whitespace matters"

 - As per definition in HTML "whitespace is ignored"  

Those 2 fundamentals won't go together. ... ever...

In "text/vnd.tiddlywiki" the "whitespace matters" rule will take 
precedence. Except if the \whitespace trim pragma is used.

So TW templates which contain a lot of html should always start with 
\whitespace 
trim. UI templates are special, for this reason.

In all other cases, where you don't use the pragma, wikitext rules will be 
applied. 

text/vnd.tiddlywiki allows us to include text/html ... but the rules are 
txt/vnd.tiddlywiki. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: BUG? -- In-Tiddler

2019-11-23 Thread TiddlyTweeter

Ciao Mario 

I commented here 
 
& here 
.

Thanks for the pointer!
TT

On Saturday, 23 November 2019 13:54:47 UTC+1, PMario wrote:
>
> Hi, 
>
> It's defined in the wikitext paragraph 
>  rule. If a text is 
> "prefixed" with 2 newlines, it is covered in a paragraph element. ...
>
> There are some "edge" cases, where the existing parser is relatively 
> "relaxed" about creating invalid HTML text. ... Your example may be 1 of 
> them. ... may be. 
>
> There is a pending pull-request, which tries to improve parser 
> paragraph-handling. The PR creator does a deep-dive and seems to understand 
> the topic very well. 
>
> So if you think it would be worth it, you can +1 the OP at github: 
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/4290
>
> As I wrote. I don't know, if the PR will solve the problem you mentioned, 
> but it may be worth a try. 
>
> have fun!
> mario
>

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[tw5] Re: BUG? -- In-Tiddler

2019-11-23 Thread TiddlyTweeter

Mario

Is that to do with the appearance of excess "**" under Type: "
*text/vnd.tiddlywiki*" ?

I noticed it since having HTML preview in the editor. I notice it gets 
worse if when you need normal HTML tags rather than WikiText.

I'd assumed it was a "problem"; not evidence of something you should not 
do. 

What I mean is---isn't "text/vnd.tiddlywiki" meant to be a MIXED format of 
WikiText and HTML? 
And the excess 's an issue?

Just asking
Josiah, x

On Saturday, 23 November 2019 13:54:47 UTC+1, PMario wrote:
>
> Hi, 
>
> It's defined in the wikitext paragraph 
>  rule. If a text is 
> "prefixed" with 2 newlines, it is covered in a paragraph element. ...
>
> There are some "edge" cases, where the existing parser is relatively 
> "relaxed" about creating invalid HTML text. ... Your example may be 1 of 
> them. ... may be. 
>
> There is a pending pull-request, which tries to improve parser 
> paragraph-handling. The PR creator does a deep-dive and seems to understand 
> the topic very well. 
>
> So if you think it would be worth it, you can +1 the OP at github: 
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/4290
>
> As I wrote. I don't know, if the PR will solve the problem you mentioned, 
> but it may be worth a try. 
>
> have fun!
> mario
>

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[tw5] Re: BUG? -- In-Tiddler

2019-11-23 Thread PMario

Hi, 

It's defined in the wikitext paragraph 
 rule. If a text is 
"prefixed" with 2 newlines, it is covered in a paragraph element. ...

There are some "edge" cases, where the existing parser is relatively 
"relaxed" about creating invalid HTML text. ... Your example may be 1 of 
them. ... may be. 

There is a pending pull-request, which tries to improve parser 
paragraph-handling. The PR creator does a deep-dive and seems to understand 
the topic very well. 

So if you think it would be worth it, you can +1 the OP at github: 
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/4290

As I wrote. I don't know, if the PR will solve the problem you mentioned, 
but it may be worth a try. 

have fun!
mario

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I need to think about that! It is counter-intuitive. Later TT On Saturday, 23 November 2019 12:36:28 UTC+1, PMario wrote: > > Hi, > > No bug, just wikitext to HTML conversion. The second example results in > > Test

h3 {color: red; font-size: 5rem}

> > See the additional tags, that break the style definition. > > So it's: What you get, is what you defined and not what you expected. > > -m > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/dd7f576a-094f-42ea-8aec-5fdb830d10a8%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: BUG? -- In-Tiddler

2019-11-23 Thread PMario

Hi, No bug, just wikitext to HTML conversion. The second example results in Test

h3 {color: red; font-size: 5rem}

See the additional tags, that break the style definition. So it's: What you get, is what you defined and not what you expected. -m -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/fd3a07bc-22c4-4486-9f5b-dbf8368276b6%40googlegroups.com.

[tw5] Re: BUG? -- In-Tiddler

2019-11-23 Thread TiddlyTweeter

Email repeat ...

If you test on TW 5.1.21 this works in a single Tiddler ...

!!! Test


h3 {color: red; font-size: 5rem}


This seems to break it, no style is applied... The single blank line after  
 breaks it? 

!!! Test