[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[TonyM]

TT

Your use is fine if these are only used in non system tiddlers and my reply 
related to when someone wanted them to be tags, I thought they would be better 
in a custom list field than tags and searchable. The gentags plugin would allow 
them to be used in filters other than search as well.

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[TiddlyTweeter]

Just to make CLEAR the cases I am referring to are simply stuff like ...

Nestlé cannot claim #bottledwater is 'essential public service', court 
> rules 

 

Michigan’s second-highest court rules in favor of township in case that 
> could damage company’s effort to privatize water http://ow.ly/FTRJ30pZFYM 
> 


In TW in text "*#bottledwater*" is fine in-text. Perfect to find. No need 
for tags.

It is a relaxed easy case already.

Best wishes
TT

>

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM wrote:
>
> I would prefer to have such hash tags added to a custom list field on the 
> tiddler it was found in. 


Which hashtags do you mean? I'm unclear here cara what you mean!!

FYI I like #hashtags for my purposes in TEXT.

No need for more. They do the job . Done.

The point is simplicity, I think.

Best wishes
TT

>

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[TonyM]

I would prefer to have such hash tags added to a custom list field on the 
tiddler it was found in. Adding it to tags not only potentially overuse tags 
but looses information unless you keep the leading #

I recently suggested such a field called keywords which is added to the default 
search mechanisium however unlike the default it also searches system tiddlers, 
also searching and returning the caption on the system tiddler if available.

This idea would in addition to globalizing keywords would allow system tiddlers 
like the tag manager to publish a user friendly name without the system prefix 
that users can locate with a standard search. Sometimes we do not want to hide 
a system tiddler.

I think you may use an independent hash-tags field in a similar manner to my 
proposed keywords field only that on tiddler save #word gets saved as word in 
the hash-tags field.

regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark

That is it. TX! I feel ashamed as I actually use it but forgot her origin.

TT

On Monday, 16 December 2019 19:42:41 UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>
> From the toolmap : 
>
>
>
> https://ibnishak.github.io/Tesseract/pluginsandmacros/hashtag2tag.html#Hashtag2tag
>  
> 
>
> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 10:12:51 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> A long time ago Riz made me a tool to convert inline hashtags into TW 
>> tags. Let me see if I can find it.
>>
>> On Monday, 16 December 2019 19:02:44 UTC+1, Diego Mesa wrote:
>>>
>>> On hastags:
>>> Ive always thought it would be really helpful to make use of the "On 
>>> Save" action of tiddlers to employ a hashtag mechanism. If its enabled, 
>>> when a user saves a tiddler the contents are scanned for hashtags and added 
>>> as tags (according to pre-specified well defined rules, just like tiddler 
>>> tittles). Also, any hashtags currently in the tag field that are not 
>>> present in the text, can also be removed (this could be another option to 
>>> enable this). 
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 10:27:12 AM UTC-6, TiddlyTweeter wrote:

 Ciao Eric

 Totally agree. The point I was getting at was that it is often not 
 necessary to proliferate tags to IDENTIFY a Tiddler's scope through a 
 #hashtag.

 And that was my point. The very power of Tags in TW is superb -- when 
 you need that -- in 90% of my cases I don't. A simple literal #hashtag 
 will 
 do the job!

 Best wishes
 TT


 On Monday, 16 December 2019 17:18:00 UTC+1, Eric Shulman wrote:
>
> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> *   Are we making best use of the TEXT field?*
>> For instance, rather than add tags in the tag field, I often add 
>> hashtags to the TEXT field like: #Iran #Kiarostami #director
>> Searching for those in the text field is just as accurate as if they 
>> were TW tags.
>>
>
> But... you can do things with tags other than "searching"... like:
>
> 1) generating lists using filter="[tag[foo]]"
> 2) navigating to tag-related items by using a tag pill
> 3) customize the ViewTemplate with conditional elements based on tags
>
> Sure, you *could* do (1), and maybe (3) using 
> filter="[search:text[#foo]]", but is that the best approach?
>
> -e
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

>From the toolmap : 

https://ibnishak.github.io/Tesseract/pluginsandmacros/hashtag2tag.html#Hashtag2tag

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 10:12:51 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> A long time ago Riz made me a tool to convert inline hashtags into TW 
> tags. Let me see if I can find it.
>
> On Monday, 16 December 2019 19:02:44 UTC+1, Diego Mesa wrote:
>>
>> On hastags:
>> Ive always thought it would be really helpful to make use of the "On 
>> Save" action of tiddlers to employ a hashtag mechanism. If its enabled, 
>> when a user saves a tiddler the contents are scanned for hashtags and added 
>> as tags (according to pre-specified well defined rules, just like tiddler 
>> tittles). Also, any hashtags currently in the tag field that are not 
>> present in the text, can also be removed (this could be another option to 
>> enable this). 
>>
>>
>> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 10:27:12 AM UTC-6, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>>
>>> Ciao Eric
>>>
>>> Totally agree. The point I was getting at was that it is often not 
>>> necessary to proliferate tags to IDENTIFY a Tiddler's scope through a 
>>> #hashtag.
>>>
>>> And that was my point. The very power of Tags in TW is superb -- when 
>>> you need that -- in 90% of my cases I don't. A simple literal #hashtag will 
>>> do the job!
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>> TT
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, 16 December 2019 17:18:00 UTC+1, Eric Shulman wrote:

 On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> *   Are we making best use of the TEXT field?*
> For instance, rather than add tags in the tag field, I often add 
> hashtags to the TEXT field like: #Iran #Kiarostami #director
> Searching for those in the text field is just as accurate as if they 
> were TW tags.
>

 But... you can do things with tags other than "searching"... like:

 1) generating lists using filter="[tag[foo]]"
 2) navigating to tag-related items by using a tag pill
 3) customize the ViewTemplate with conditional elements based on tags

 Sure, you *could* do (1), and maybe (3) using 
 filter="[search:text[#foo]]", but is that the best approach?

 -e



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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[TiddlyTweeter]

A long time ago Riz made me a tool to convert inline hashtags into TW tags. 
Let me see if I can find it.

On Monday, 16 December 2019 19:02:44 UTC+1, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> On hastags:
> Ive always thought it would be really helpful to make use of the "On Save" 
> action of tiddlers to employ a hashtag mechanism. If its enabled, when a 
> user saves a tiddler the contents are scanned for hashtags and added as 
> tags (according to pre-specified well defined rules, just like tiddler 
> tittles). Also, any hashtags currently in the tag field that are not 
> present in the text, can also be removed (this could be another option to 
> enable this). 
>
>
> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 10:27:12 AM UTC-6, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Ciao Eric
>>
>> Totally agree. The point I was getting at was that it is often not 
>> necessary to proliferate tags to IDENTIFY a Tiddler's scope through a 
>> #hashtag.
>>
>> And that was my point. The very power of Tags in TW is superb -- when you 
>> need that -- in 90% of my cases I don't. A simple literal #hashtag will do 
>> the job!
>>
>> Best wishes
>> TT
>>
>>
>> On Monday, 16 December 2019 17:18:00 UTC+1, Eric Shulman wrote:
>>>
>>> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:

 *   Are we making best use of the TEXT field?*
 For instance, rather than add tags in the tag field, I often add 
 hashtags to the TEXT field like: #Iran #Kiarostami #director
 Searching for those in the text field is just as accurate as if they 
 were TW tags.

>>>
>>> But... you can do things with tags other than "searching"... like:
>>>
>>> 1) generating lists using filter="[tag[foo]]"
>>> 2) navigating to tag-related items by using a tag pill
>>> 3) customize the ViewTemplate with conditional elements based on tags
>>>
>>> Sure, you *could* do (1), and maybe (3) using 
>>> filter="[search:text[#foo]]", but is that the best approach?
>>>
>>> -e
>>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[Diego Mesa]

On hastags:
Ive always thought it would be really helpful to make use of the "On Save" 
action of tiddlers to employ a hashtag mechanism. If its enabled, when a 
user saves a tiddler the contents are scanned for hashtags and added as 
tags (according to pre-specified well defined rules, just like tiddler 
tittles). Also, any hashtags currently in the tag field that are not 
present in the text, can also be removed (this could be another option to 
enable this). 


On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 10:27:12 AM UTC-6, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao Eric
>
> Totally agree. The point I was getting at was that it is often not 
> necessary to proliferate tags to IDENTIFY a Tiddler's scope through a 
> #hashtag.
>
> And that was my point. The very power of Tags in TW is superb -- when you 
> need that -- in 90% of my cases I don't. A simple literal #hashtag will do 
> the job!
>
> Best wishes
> TT
>
>
> On Monday, 16 December 2019 17:18:00 UTC+1, Eric Shulman wrote:
>>
>> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>>
>>> *   Are we making best use of the TEXT field?*
>>> For instance, rather than add tags in the tag field, I often add 
>>> hashtags to the TEXT field like: #Iran #Kiarostami #director
>>> Searching for those in the text field is just as accurate as if they 
>>> were TW tags.
>>>
>>
>> But... you can do things with tags other than "searching"... like:
>>
>> 1) generating lists using filter="[tag[foo]]"
>> 2) navigating to tag-related items by using a tag pill
>> 3) customize the ViewTemplate with conditional elements based on tags
>>
>> Sure, you *could* do (1), and maybe (3) using 
>> filter="[search:text[#foo]]", but is that the best approach?
>>
>> -e
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Eric

Totally agree. The point I was getting at was that it is often not 
necessary to proliferate tags to IDENTIFY a Tiddler's scope through a 
#hashtag.

And that was my point. The very power of Tags in TW is superb -- when you 
need that -- in 90% of my cases I don't. A simple literal #hashtag will do 
the job!

Best wishes
TT


On Monday, 16 December 2019 17:18:00 UTC+1, Eric Shulman wrote:
>
> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> *   Are we making best use of the TEXT field?*
>> For instance, rather than add tags in the tag field, I often add hashtags 
>> to the TEXT field like: #Iran #Kiarostami #director
>> Searching for those in the text field is just as accurate as if they were 
>> TW tags.
>>
>
> But... you can do things with tags other than "searching"... like:
>
> 1) generating lists using filter="[tag[foo]]"
> 2) navigating to tag-related items by using a tag pill
> 3) customize the ViewTemplate with conditional elements based on tags
>
> Sure, you *could* do (1), and maybe (3) using 
> filter="[search:text[#foo]]", but is that the best approach?
>
> -e
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark

Yeah. You are right in that "#" in TW has a meaning it doesn't everywhere. 
I do switch it off when its a first character in a Tiddler line when I need 
to.

My hashtaggery comes because of its *very wide use in social networks* like 
Twitter & Telegram where I use it constantly.

But, I think, my key point was that the TEXT field can itself contain a 
Tiddler's own categorisation. 

The proliferation of fields is adjunctive. And sometìmes wonder if they are 
sometimes redundant?

Thoughts in process
TT

On Monday, 16 December 2019 17:05:58 UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>
> But you have to remember that the hash exists, and exactly how you spelled 
> it, preferably including capitalization.
>
> You only have to look at the tag list for GG to see how easily that can go 
> off the wheels.
>
> Also, the tag then becomes embedded in the text, which might mess with 
> presentation. Text might be tagged with terms (#economic-justice 
> #eschatology) that don't actually occur in the text. 
>
> On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Mohammad
>>
>> It is an interesting question. I have another question too. 
>>
>> *   Are we making best use of the TEXT field?*
>>
>> For instance, rather than add tags in the tag field, I often add hashtags 
>> to the TEXT field like: #Iran #Kiarostami #director
>>
>> Searching for those in the text field is just as accurate as if they were 
>> TW tags.
>>
>> A comment :-)
>> TT
>>
>> On Sunday, 15 December 2019 20:29:17 UTC+1, Mohammad wrote:
>>>
>>> I have read Jeremy has made fields the first citizen of Tiddly wiki!
>>> But what are the pros and cons of using fields? How do you recommend to 
>>> use fields in Tiddlywiki?
>>>
>>> In another thread there is a discourage to use data tiddler in favor of 
>>> fields! I wish to know how and when to use
>>> fields!
>>>
>>> - when you put everything in fields, most search facilities in 
>>> Tiddlywiki do not easily find what you are looking for
>>> - transcludind fields value in text and other place makes it too 
>>> difficult to find the tiddler you look for
>>> - transcluding fields cause confusion for people not familiar with 
>>> Tiddlywiki
>>>
>>> Pros
>>> - field can be used for templating abstraction
>>> - field can be used to create databases
>>> - inheritance can be implemented using fields
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[Eric Shulman]

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> *   Are we making best use of the TEXT field?*
> For instance, rather than add tags in the tag field, I often add hashtags 
> to the TEXT field like: #Iran #Kiarostami #director
> Searching for those in the text field is just as accurate as if they were 
> TW tags.
>

But... you can do things with tags other than "searching"... like:

1) generating lists using filter="[tag[foo]]"
2) navigating to tag-related items by using a tag pill
3) customize the ViewTemplate with conditional elements based on tags

Sure, you *could* do (1), and maybe (3) using filter="[search:text[#foo]]", 
but is that the best approach?

-e

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

But you have to remember that the hash exists, and exactly how you spelled 
it, preferably including capitalization.

You only have to look at the tag list for GG to see how easily that can go 
off the wheels.

Also, the tag then becomes embedded in the text, which might mess with 
presentation. Text might be tagged with terms (#economic-justice 
#eschatology) that don't actually occur in the text. 

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 7:41:15 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Mohammad
>
> It is an interesting question. I have another question too. 
>
> *   Are we making best use of the TEXT field?*
>
> For instance, rather than add tags in the tag field, I often add hashtags 
> to the TEXT field like: #Iran #Kiarostami #director
>
> Searching for those in the text field is just as accurate as if they were 
> TW tags.
>
> A comment :-)
> TT
>
> On Sunday, 15 December 2019 20:29:17 UTC+1, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>> I have read Jeremy has made fields the first citizen of Tiddly wiki!
>> But what are the pros and cons of using fields? How do you recommend to 
>> use fields in Tiddlywiki?
>>
>> In another thread there is a discourage to use data tiddler in favor of 
>> fields! I wish to know how and when to use
>> fields!
>>
>> - when you put everything in fields, most search facilities in Tiddlywiki 
>> do not easily find what you are looking for
>> - transcludind fields value in text and other place makes it too 
>> difficult to find the tiddler you look for
>> - transcluding fields cause confusion for people not familiar with 
>> Tiddlywiki
>>
>> Pros
>> - field can be used for templating abstraction
>> - field can be used to create databases
>> - inheritance can be implemented using fields
>>
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[Mohammad]

On Monday, December 16, 2019 at 7:11:15 PM UTC+3:30, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Mohammad
>
> It is an interesting question. I have another question too. 
>
> *   Are we making best use of the TEXT field?*
>

Absolutely NOT!
 

>
> For instance, rather than add tags in the tag field, I often add hashtags 
> to the TEXT field like: #Iran #Kiarostami #director
>
> Searching for those in the text field is just as accurate as if they were 
> TW tags.
>

That is true! But these need to be learned! Where is the good Tiddlywiki 
practice?
 

>
> A comment :-)
> TT
>
> On Sunday, 15 December 2019 20:29:17 UTC+1, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>> I have read Jeremy has made fields the first citizen of Tiddly wiki!
>> But what are the pros and cons of using fields? How do you recommend to 
>> use fields in Tiddlywiki?
>>
>> In another thread there is a discourage to use data tiddler in favor of 
>> fields! I wish to know how and when to use
>> fields!
>>
>> - when you put everything in fields, most search facilities in Tiddlywiki 
>> do not easily find what you are looking for
>> - transcludind fields value in text and other place makes it too 
>> difficult to find the tiddler you look for
>> - transcluding fields cause confusion for people not familiar with 
>> Tiddlywiki
>>
>> Pros
>> - field can be used for templating abstraction
>> - field can be used to create databases
>> - inheritance can be implemented using fields
>>
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Using Fields: Pros and Cons

[TiddlyTweeter]

Mohammad

It is an interesting question. I have another question too. 

*   Are we making best use of the TEXT field?*

For instance, rather than add tags in the tag field, I often add hashtags 
to the TEXT field like: #Iran #Kiarostami #director

Searching for those in the text field is just as accurate as if they were 
TW tags.

A comment :-)
TT

On Sunday, 15 December 2019 20:29:17 UTC+1, Mohammad wrote:
>
> I have read Jeremy has made fields the first citizen of Tiddly wiki!
> But what are the pros and cons of using fields? How do you recommend to 
> use fields in Tiddlywiki?
>
> In another thread there is a discourage to use data tiddler in favor of 
> fields! I wish to know how and when to use
> fields!
>
> - when you put everything in fields, most search facilities in Tiddlywiki 
> do not easily find what you are looking for
> - transcludind fields value in text and other place makes it too difficult 
> to find the tiddler you look for
> - transcluding fields cause confusion for people not familiar with 
> Tiddlywiki
>
> Pros
> - field can be used for templating abstraction
> - field can be used to create databases
> - inheritance can be implemented using fields
>
>
> What do you think?
>

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