Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread jimlux
Jim Lux wrote: That's not precisely true. You can get a frequency estimate that is substantially more precise than 1/T if the snr is high. Consider super-resolution in an interferometer which is mathematically similar. What you give up is ambiguity. Probably one of the oldest techniques is

Re: [time-nuts] Mertic for Comparing WWVB Loop Antennas?

2010-10-13 Thread Bob Camp
Hi I suspect you will find that the winding technique does indeed matter in terms of how a good an antenna you get. There's more to it than coil Q. Bob On Oct 13, 2010, at 3:38 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi: > > I've wound a ferrite loop antenna tuned for WWVB based on the Russian ferrite >

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread Bob Camp
Hi Here's pretty much how it works: Integrating capacitor: You rarely if ever see one in an oven controller that's actually acting as an integrator in the control sense. What you do see are caps to roll off the AC gain of the loop to drop noise. In other words the time constant is way to shor

[time-nuts] Mertic for Comparing WWVB Loop Antennas?

2010-10-13 Thread Brooke Clarke
Hi: I've wound a ferrite loop antenna tuned for WWVB based on the Russian ferrite rods and it's much longer than the stock antenna that comes with the C-Max WWVB receiver. I could just replace the old antenna with the new one, but would rather come up with some way to characterize the relati

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread Bill Hawkins
Group, The primary controller issue is too little reset because the integrating capacitor is too small or bad. After that comes too much gain. Power lead resistance would reduce the gain. Conversely, high voltage would increase gain. Don't think extra insulation is a stability issue, unless it's

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread David McClain
Thanks for that Jim, ... I see that Prony's method bears some relationship to AR deconvolution. Interesting... http://www.dsprelated.com/dspbooks/filters/Prony_s_Method.html Dr. David McClain Chief Technical Officer Refined Audiometrics Laboratory 4391 N. Camino Ferreo Tucson, AZ 85750 ema

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread jimlux
David McClain wrote: Hi Jim, Can you give any more precise hints, e.g., links to articles? You mentioned Prony, Music, and Espirit. You caught my attention with your analogy to interferometry... Yes.. many of the spectral estimation techniques share a common mathematical basis with directi

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread jimlux
David McClain wrote: Hi Jim, Can you give any more precise hints, e.g., links to articles? You mentioned Prony, Music, and Espirit. You caught my attention with your analogy to interferometry... Prony has been around for centuries (first used to predict tides in the 18th century, as I reca

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread David McClain
Hi Jim, Can you give any more precise hints, e.g., links to articles? You mentioned Prony, Music, and Espirit. You caught my attention with your analogy to interferometry... Cheers, Dr. David McClain Chief Technical Officer Refined Audiometrics Laboratory 4391 N. Camino Ferreo Tucson, AZ

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread Jim Lux
On Oct 13, 2010, at 12:32 AM, David McClain wrote: > Hello John, > >> Well, not entirely -- it's common enough to see FFT applications that >> compute frequency readings at sub-bin precision by tracking atan(Q,I) across >> multiple time records. That is a well-defined thing to do, since the

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread Jim Lux
That's not precisely true. You can get a frequency estimate that is substantially more precise than 1/T if the snr is high. Consider super-resolution in an interferometer which is mathematically similar. What you give up is ambiguity. Probably one of the oldest techniques is that of Prony,

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread Gordon Batey
Greetings, I may be missing something here but when you receive a signal in the AM mode the audio is derived from the transmitted carrier. Even if your local osc moves around the audio is generated from the difference between the transmitted carrier and the audio sidebands. I have found it qui

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread Bob Camp
Hi Should have been two out of three things ... Bob On Oct 13, 2010, at 6:58 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > Controller cycling is often a result of one of two things: > > 1) Resistance in the power lead > 2) Extra insulation / dead air > 3) Internal controller issues > > There are a few othe

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread Bob Camp
Hi Controller cycling is often a result of one of two things: 1) Resistance in the power lead 2) Extra insulation / dead air 3) Internal controller issues There are a few other possibilities, but they are remote enough that you are unlikely to ever come across them. There's no advantage to bui

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread Magnus Danielson
On 10/13/2010 05:32 AM, Jim Lux wrote: On Oct 12, 2010, at 6:09 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: Hi Bob and Dave, On 10/13/2010 02:57 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Yes it is a reasonable expectation as long as you don't have a lot of drafts. A good TCXO can get down to sub 0.1 ppb over that period.

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread David McClain
OTOH, I do see the virtue in the phase examination approach... A longer FFT would average over any short-term variations in a cyclostationary process. If you take shorter FFT's you can catch the signal in the act of drifting, and perhaps use the phase examination to augment your frequency e

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread David McClain
Hello John, Well, not entirely -- it's common enough to see FFT applications that compute frequency readings at sub-bin precision by tracking atan (Q,I) across multiple time records. That is a well-defined thing to do, since the Yes, indeed, I am familiar with that technique from my SIGINT

Re: [time-nuts] Question about SoundCard stability?

2010-10-13 Thread David McClain
Sorry, we must be talking past one another... I'm measuring the 100 Hz sideband from 10 MHz WWV in AM demodulation. I should see about 5 mHz cyclic drift, and I wasn't seeing it. I now know that is because the FFT bin size was about 11 mHz wide and the "interpolated" peak frequency assumes