Mark,
what you are doing is not wrong but must be interpreted in the correct way.
Please keep in mind that you are NOT comparing two naked GPS receivers. In
fact you are comparing the outputs of two GPSDOs. The deeper sense of a
GPSDO is to surpress the noise floor of the GPS receiver as good as
I have received the three following notices:
NOTIFICATION OF GPS JAMMING EXERCISES STANFORD TRAINING AREA, EAST ANGLIA,
FEBRUARY 2013
Dates: Between 11 and 15 February 2013.
Times: 0900 -1600 GMT.
Location of MULTIPLE jammers: Land based within
Relative to the last notice, a CW jammer would be at a single frequency, so it
seems odd they specify a band. Perhaps a CW anywhere in that band.
I talked to the USAF about their jamming, and they use white noise over the
band. A certain COTS Marconi (IIRC) signal generator produces the band
Thanks for the comments and suggestions.
With regards to the equipment used to collect the data, I am using two HP
5370B's. The 1 pps output of the PRS10 is connected to the start input of
each counter, the 10Mhz output of each of the GPSDO's is connected to the stop
input of one of the
Sorry I meant to say I'm confident the measurements are above the noise floor
after approx 100 seconds.
--
On Mon, 3 Dec, 2012 4:56 AM PST Mark Spencer wrote:
Thanks for the comments and suggestions.
With regards to the equipment used to collect the data, I am
On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
wrote:
Erich,
On 12/02/2012 08:54 PM, Erich Heine wrote:
Jonathan,
My research group has had some good experiences using products from
Endace (
http://www.endace.com/) for network timing measurement at the
One of my favorite things about being in security, (and a researcher in
general), is that we regularly get to say that sounds too hard, what if we
look $HERE instead. So while I catch up on security in the time
synchronization space, I've also been musing on this notion of attacking
the clock. By
Hi
One very basic question might be - is a public list read by millions of
people the right place to dig into this?
The most basic thing you can detect is time went backwards. Obviously, it
should never to this. Because it's easy to detect, I'd assume that the
attacker isn't going to do anything
Well, I hope they made it worth your while!
Congrats!
Didier
Sent from my Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker.
-Original Message-
From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 11:33 PM
Subject: Re:
I agree, Bob.
Like the billboard on the side of the highway says: - Does Advertising Work?
JUST DID -
The bad guys can read this list same as the good guys.
--
From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 11:18 AM
To:
And proprietary security schemes always fail due to insufficient vetting.
Security by obscurity is not security at all IPsec is secure because it it's
inner workings are there for all to see and it's never been broken the
compromises have happened because of poor key management not because of
Dear Erich,
I will allow myself to comment briefly on the RF part of your concerns.
* Random thought - Can I point a highly directed microwave beam at the coax
from the GPS antenna to the clock to cause noise inside that channel?
GPS signals are very low level as we all know and are subject
Hi
If your GPS is sitting somewhere on the main power grid, it's often already
in a pretty massive electromagnet field. Early on they tried lower frequency
time sources and simply could not hear them above the noise of the power
plant or switching station. There are multiple papers from the
I'm an applications engineer for a company that makes Ethernet controllers
and PHYs. Some of our customers use crystals (more often oscillators) that
they selected based on price rather than performance. when i'm debugging a
customer issue replacing the clock source with a synthesizer is a good
Continuing from previous posting...
Still, there are always a number of talks of more general interest to us time
nuts.
In the next few postings I'll give more details on a couple of topics:
- Neutrino time-of-flight update
Last years' faster-than-light neutrino fiasco is now old news, but
Well, if it's the current set of ruffians we're worried about, my guess
is a reasonably well-placed RPG would get the job done 1/2 :-).
Don L
Bob Camp
Hi
If your GPS is sitting somewhere on the main power grid, it's often
already
in a pretty massive electromagnet field. Early on they tried
In message AB5B0278225B4BD483382A39E6834203@pc52, Tom Van Baak writes:
- USNO rubidium fountains
While many national labs have developed cesium fountains (for
accuracy), USNO has been gradually building rubidium fountain clocks
(for stability) and 4 of them are now fully operational.
All of these attacks the clock would notice and probably go into holdover So
far these attacks do not allow the time product to be altered in a
deterministic manner
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 3, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:
Well, if it's the current set of ruffians
Hi
The key words there being so far.
If:
1) You can flood the antenna with a synthetic signal ( = come up with RF
power)
2) You can synthesize synthetic sat signals ( = buy fancy signal generators
)
3) You can walk those signals off ( = do some complicated math )
I believe that given enough
On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
One very basic question might be - is a public list read by millions of
people the right place to dig into this?
Thanks for bringing this up. I probably should have asked the list about
general comfort levels regarding such a
My research group has had some good experiences using products from Endace (
http://www.endace.com/) for network timing measurement at the ethernet
level. I don't have a pointer immediately to the work, but if there is
interest can ask tomorrow at work. The gist of it though was to understand
Or you just hack the SCADA. Far nastier.
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sophac...@gmail.com said:
So what I am trying to understand today is ways we can affect the
reliability of the clock, having affects on everything mentioned above.
There is a big overlap between maliciously attacking the clock and the clock
doing something crazy due to bugs in hardware,
On 12/3/12 9:32 AM, dlewis6767 wrote:
I agree, Bob.
Like the billboard on the side of the highway says: - Does Advertising
Work? JUST DID -
The bad guys can read this list same as the good guys.
Security through obscurity never works in the long run. Much better to
discuss
I have one of those key fobs. Does the code somehow inform the power the be
about the drift in the built in clock? Or is the time element of the code so
sloppy that the drift is acceptable?
-Original Message-
From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net
Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
Date:
While the Trimble Tbolts are still out there and reasonably available, are
there any newer alternatives in the same general price range?
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I think this class of attack would be directed along the order of financial
crimes or industrial espionage where you want to hide the audit trail or
convince a database that the update is legitimate
We really need to think more about the secure distribution of time products
In the past in
Hi
The TBolt is the newest of the used category. For newer, you skip up to brand
new.
Bob
On Dec 3, 2012, at 7:42 PM, Tom Clifton kc0...@yahoo.com wrote:
While the Trimble Tbolts are still out there and reasonably available, are
there any newer alternatives in the same general price range?
On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Scott McGrath scmcgr...@gmail.com wrote:
We really need to think more about the secure distribution of time products
Is NTP not secure. I know it can be secured but I think in practice people
disable passwords.
--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach,
Hmmm new and better.
That means better stability, noise, lower power, lower heat, for less and
works with lady heather? :-)
I can hope.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 7:52 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
The TBolt is the newest of the used category. For newer, you skip up to
On 12/04/2012 02:44 AM, paul swed wrote:
Hmmm new and better.
That means better stability, noise, lower power, lower heat, for less and
works with lady heather? :-)
I can hope.
Mostly cheaper actually. Better GPS to start with, probably. Lower
power, most probably.
We should discuss if we
NTP is not secure in nature. MD5 key exchange between client and server is the
only secure feature up to now, for the client to be sure that he/she is getting
a correct time sync to the desired server. On the other side if the server does
not receive a matching MD5 key, it will simply ignore
Hi
The gotcha is that you go from paying surplus prices to paying new prices. New
price to new price, they certainly are cheaper. Not so easy to beat a $100
TBolt on price (if you can find one).
Bob
On Dec 3, 2012, at 8:50 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
On 12/04/2012
li...@lazygranch.com said:
I have one of those key fobs. Does the code somehow inform the power the be
about the drift in the built in clock? Or is the time element of the code so
sloppy that the drift is acceptable?
The magic number changes every second or so. You only have to scan a few
Hello The Net:
Any idea what this alarm is ?
It appreared,
I got out of the application,
I restarted, and
no more alarm notification.
Stan, W1LE
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albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
Is NTP not secure. I know it can be secured but I think in practice people
disable passwords.
The default in most distributions and most servers is no crypto. So it's not
that anybody disables authentication but doesn't go through all the work to
enable it.
Yes sir $139. But boy I have not seen cheap tbolts in bit. As I recall
$260 these days?
On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 9:12 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:
Hi
The gotcha is that you go from paying surplus prices to paying new prices.
New price to new price, they certainly are cheaper. Not so easy
What is the 'thing' being secured?
H
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xe1...@amsat.org said:
On the other hand PTP is evolving to be a future protocol for time transfer.
Nowadays it is superior than NTP in the LAN environment.
Superior is an interesting word.
I'm not familiar with the details of current PTP implementations. I am
reasonably familiar with the
A dirty power supply might go unnoticed. Maybe feed in line noise to the LV
stuff with a HV cap.
The problem is that it is difficult to fool for long people who are paying
attention.
Simon
Engineering is the art of making what you want from what you can get at a
profit.
On 12/3/12 6:34 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
li...@lazygranch.com said:
I have one of those key fobs. Does the code somehow inform the power the be
about the drift in the built in clock? Or is the time element of the code so
sloppy that the drift is acceptable?
The magic number changes every second
I'm using a Symmetricom 58534A GPS timing receiver and a GPS board with a
SkyNav SKG25A1 module driving stratum 1 NTP servers.
On one of the servers, the ppstest output while the 58534A is connected
looks like:
source 0 - assert 1354495734.00102
source 0 - assert 1354495735.00040
When I
jim...@earthlink.net said:
The question is: Can I distribute timing information through a network
reliably
I think so. The better question is how accurately?
Assume client and server share a secret key and the server is trustworthy.
Assume the protocol allows the client to put a magic
Hi Gabs, and welcome to the list.
Or, the 58534A is 2 us late compared to the SKG25A1. If you have a 'scope handy
check the risetime of the signal at all points in the long chain from the
58534A to the GPIO.
Better yet, if you have a dual-channel 'scope or TI counter, compare the 1PPS's
as
I was a bit concerned about clicking the fob for no good reason. I
assume each click is a different number. I only use it for ebay and
paypal. [Incidentally, they jacked the price from $5 to $30.]
Now a phone has accurate network time, so they could get really tricky
with the time as part of
On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 1:59 PM, gary li...@lazygranch.com wrote:
Things were going OK but then I heard a nasty sound and the lights
flickered a bit. It turns out some curious students wanted to see what
happened if the generator and mains were out of phase. Well, the mains wins.
Been there,
li...@lazygranch.com said:
Now a phone has accurate network time, so they could get really tricky with
the time as part of the code.
Are you sure?
I don't have a smart phone, but I've heard various war stories of crappy time
keeping.
I assume the time was coming from an ap rather than the
All my blackberries synced to the network. I presume all phones do this.
I still have an Android HTC G2 that has a NTP app, not that it ever worked!
On 12/3/2012 10:27 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
li...@lazygranch.com said:
Now a phone has accurate network time, so they could get really tricky
Please. May we call this thread finished. It's way off topic.
Thanks,
/tvb
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-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 12/04/2012 04:44 AM, Hal Murray wrote:
PTP is basically making the network transit times more accurate
than symmetrical by measuring them. Each box that processes a
packet updates the packet with the processing/queuing delays.
I think
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