Re: [time-nuts] RoHS Solder

[Mike Monett]

  saidj...@aol.com wrote:

  > That's kind of part of the scam in my opinion, we now  create much
  > more electronic trash in the name of removing miniscule amounts of
  > environmentally unsafe lead from products..

  > Forget about  running your new Agilent counter for 25+  years like
  > we used to be able to do...

  > Another part  of  the  scam  is that  only  two  companies  (one a
  > University if  I remember correctly, one a Japanese  company) hold
  > the patents to the Silver based solder that everyone now  needs to
  > use... And  according  to the USGS we are quickly  running  out of
  > mineable Silver..

  It's even worse than it appears.

  If you consider the danger of drinking water from lead  pipes, there
  is clearly  some risk in disposing of lead in a  landfill.  Since it
  accumulates in the body, the EPA sets the MCLG limit at zero:

  http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/index.html

  The maximum  contaminant level goal or MCLG means the  maximum level
  of a contaminant in drinking water at which no known  or anticipated
  adverse effect  on  the  health of persons  would  occur,  and which
  allows an adequate margin of safety. Maximum contaminant level goals
  are nonenforceable health goals.

 


  However, every  year,   approximately   800,000  tons  of automotive
  batteries enter the European Community market:

 


  A European directive sets a target for the recycling of at least 65%
  by weight of lead-acid batteries by 26 September 2011:

 


  So each year, the remaining 0.35   *  80  =  280,000  tons would
  presumably end up in landfill somewhere.

  It is  difficult to see how the amount used in electronics  can even
  remotely compare with the amount involved in illegal disposal of car
  batteries.

  Mike

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Re: [time-nuts] RoHS Solder

[Lux, Jim (337C)]

> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On 
> Behalf Of saidj...@aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 4:38 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RoHS Solder
> 
> That's kind of part of the scam in my opinion, we now create much more
> electronic trash in the name of removing miniscule amounts of environmentally
> unsafe lead from products..
> 
> Forget about running your new Agilent counter for 25+ years like we used to
>  be able to do...
> 
> Another part of the scam is that only two companies (one a University if I
> remember correctly, one a Japanese company) hold the patents to the  Silver
> based solder that everyone now needs to use... And according to the USGS
> we are quickly running out of mineable Silver..
> 

I find that hard to believe.. the use of silver in photography is rapidly 
dropping.. I think it used to be about a third of the total market, and now 
it's something like 10%. 

A bit of googling shows that there are something like 3300 million ounces not 
yet mined, but found. 

A chart shows existing mines producing around 200 million oz/yr, so that's 
15-16 years production.. not too far into the future, I admit. 
The same chart showed a demand of about 800 million oz/yr (there's significant 
recycling of silver).

But, anyway, of that 200 million oz, how much is going into lead-free solder.  
EPA says about 180 million pounds/yr of tin-lead solder. I think the usual 
formulations are 2% silver, so 3.6 million pounds/yr of silver (14.6 troy 
oz/lb, so 53 million oz/yr... a significant chunk, but only about 6-7% of the 
total world usage.. )

And those unmined reserves are based on whatever silver prices are now.. 
($15-17/oz, I think)  If the demand increased significantly, it might spur 
exploration OR, more likely, the usage of lower grade ores. Unfortunately, 
silver is a mineral that concentrates (unlike, say, iron), so it's not like 
dropping the grade by a factor of 2 leads to an increased abundance of a 
similar factor.  However, even if the silver price doubles, it's a small part 
of the cost of a piece of electronics... sure, silicon is made from sand which 
is pretty common, but it's very expensive processing that sand to make 
functional dice and to put them in packages.



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Re: [time-nuts] RoHS Solder

[Alan Melia]

It is amazing the loops we go though. I remember being involved in whiskers
about 40 years ago. the information I got then is that tin wgiskers only
grow from pure tin, I cant now remember the level of alloying that is
necessary to suppress the growth. The problem I had tuened out to be a
"lead"tree growing electrochemically in the presence of, and inn contact
with, liquid water. However I used to have an unbelieveable photograph I too
of a silver whisker on some telemetry equipment, this was accelerated I
believe by the atmospher containing sulphur (sulfur to you) probably
outgassed from rubber based cable sheaths. Again I believe the whisker
growth is only from pure metal in this case plating. But even the thick gold
plating beloved of the military and seen on a lot of HP pcbs in the 70s
causes embrittlement of tin/lead soldered joints.

I have been using 99.25%tin/copper alloy recently and have been surprised by
the "look" of the handmade joints, quite "shiny" but I am guesing that is
not sufficient "foriegn" material to stop the whiskering, and any more would
increse the melting point. Thanks for the URL references they will make an
interesting read. (I have a large stock of tin/lead for my personal hobby
use) I wonder how much lead leeches off Cathedral roofs in areas of acid
rain like the big cities !!

Alan G3NYK
- Original Message -
From: 
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 12:38 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RoHS Solder


> That's kind of part of the scam in my opinion, we now create much more
> electronic trash in the name of removing miniscule amounts of
environmentally
> unsafe lead from products..
>
> Forget about running your new Agilent counter for 25+ years like we used
to
>  be able to do...
>
> Another part of the scam is that only two companies (one a University if I
> remember correctly, one a Japanese company) hold the patents to the
Silver
> based solder that everyone now needs to use... And according to the USGS
> we are quickly running out of mineable Silver..
>
>
> In a message dated 9/24/2009 16:23:23 Pacific Daylight Time,
> p...@petelancashire.com writes:
>
> Another  article I will see if I can find it took a different
> slant. Since it can  take two to three years for a whisker to
> grow enough to cause a short. It  is a big plus for the
> consumer industry. Finally a built in failure  mechanism to
> force the consumer to have to buy again, and again, and  again.
>
> -pete
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] RoHS Solder

[SAIDJACK]

That's kind of part of the scam in my opinion, we now create much more  
electronic trash in the name of removing miniscule amounts of environmentally  
unsafe lead from products..
 
Forget about running your new Agilent counter for 25+ years like we used to 
 be able to do...
 
Another part of the scam is that only two companies (one a University if I  
remember correctly, one a Japanese company) hold the patents to the  Silver 
based solder that everyone now needs to use... And according to the USGS  
we are quickly running out of mineable Silver..
 
 
In a message dated 9/24/2009 16:23:23 Pacific Daylight Time,  
p...@petelancashire.com writes:

Another  article I will see if I can find it took a different
slant. Since it can  take two to three years for a whisker to
grow enough to cause a short. It  is a big plus for the
consumer industry. Finally a built in failure  mechanism to
force the consumer to have to buy again, and again, and  again.

-pete



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Re: [time-nuts] RoHS Solder

[Pete Lancashire]

Another article I will see if I can find it took a different
slant. Since it can take two to three years for a whisker to
grow enough to cause a short. It is a big plus for the
consumer industry. Finally a built in failure mechanism to
force the consumer to have to buy again, and again, and again.

-pete




> Hi,
>
> yes, tin whiskering is a huge issue. Wikipedia has some nice (and
> shocking) pics on it.
>
> One of the best sources of information is the Nasa Tin Whisker page:
>
>_http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/_ (http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/)
>
> bye,
> Said
>
>
>
> In a message dated 9/24/2009 06:15:04 Pacific Daylight Time,
> wpxs...@gmail.com writes:
>
> Interesting comments regarding. lead free solder. I was not aware of  the
> tin
> whisker problem. We went lead free here at work several years ago.  I
> really
> don't like the lead free solder we have to use on several  accounts. As
> mentioned, you don't get nice shiny joints. They look pretty  much like
> cold
> joints. We had to do some rework on some products and the  lead free stuff
> doesn't rework well at all. We ended up having several  field failures.
> Not
> good for customer relations. The processing  temperatures are much higher
> than with eutectic and sometimes the boards  come out of the oven all
> brown
> and crispy. Good thing most of what we make  gets molded in plastic. I
> don't
> use lead free in the lab. One of the many  reasons is to keep customers
> from
> putting engineering samples in equipment  to be sold.
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] RoHS Solder

[SAIDJACK]

Hi,
 
yes, tin whiskering is a huge issue. Wikipedia has some nice (and  
shocking) pics on it.
 
One of the best sources of information is the Nasa Tin Whisker page:
 
   _http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/_ (http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/) 
 
bye,
Said
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/24/2009 06:15:04 Pacific Daylight Time,  
wpxs...@gmail.com writes:

Interesting comments regarding. lead free solder. I was not aware of  the 
tin
whisker problem. We went lead free here at work several years ago.  I really
don't like the lead free solder we have to use on several  accounts. As
mentioned, you don't get nice shiny joints. They look pretty  much like cold
joints. We had to do some rework on some products and the  lead free stuff
doesn't rework well at all. We ended up having several  field failures. Not
good for customer relations. The processing  temperatures are much higher
than with eutectic and sometimes the boards  come out of the oven all brown
and crispy. Good thing most of what we make  gets molded in plastic. I don't
use lead free in the lab. One of the many  reasons is to keep customers from
putting engineering samples in equipment  to be sold.
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Re: [time-nuts] Solartron 7150plus DMM Failure

[Robert Atkinson]

Hi,
Not too sure bout the 7060, but the 7061 has the same problem, at least mine 
did. I'm pretty certain the 7060 will be the same. I don't think it's a batch 
problem, more a basic design flaw and environmental conditions. I first saw 
this in the eary BBC B computers.

Robert G8RPI.

--- On Thu, 24/9/09, gandal...@aol.com  wrote:

> From: gandal...@aol.com 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Solartron 7150plus DMM Failure
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Date: Thursday, 24 September, 2009, 10:47 AM
>  
> In a message dated 24/09/2009 10:27:54 GMT Daylight
> Time,  
> phill...@btinternet.com
> writes:
> 
> Do you  know if the Solartron 7060 (I think of the
> same vintage), has the 
> same  problem ?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Roy
>  
> Sorry, but I don't know.
>  
> I don't have any specific information on the 7060, and the
> 7055/7065  
> service manual doesn't indicate if the mains filter in that
> is a Schaffner  part.
> The Solartron part number is different from that for the
> Schaffner unit in  
> the 7150plus but I'm not sure if that's any consolation.
>  
> If they did use a similar Schaffner filter though I would
> assume it's quite 
>  likely, perhaps someone else on the list could advise?
>  
> regards
>  
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>  
>  
> ___
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> 


  

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Re: [time-nuts] Solartron 7150plus DMM Failure

[Alan Melia]

Hi all, I dont know whether it is pertinent but it may pay to collect dta on
this one as there are fairures reported in many makes of equipment. the
failing part in my kit has a datecode (??) of 8922F on the paper label on
the side. By my reckoning that would be week 22 of 1989, which ties in with
the equipment production periods. I believe these fails would have been
batch related.

Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: "Roy Phillips" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"

Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Solartron 7150plus DMM Failure


> Nigel
> Do you know if the Solartron 7060 (I think of the same vintage), has the
> same problem ?
> Roy
>
> - Original Message -
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Solartron 7150plus DMM Failure
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 21/09/2009 21:53:35 GMT Daylight Time,
> > li...@philpem.me.uk writes:
> >
> > I  suspect if I ever get another 7150+, I'll be swapping the line filter
> > on  the instrument's arrival...
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> > I'd go along with that.
> >
> > Given that I'd already been advised after my first one blew that it
> > wasn't
> > unusual, I'm still wondering why I was daft enough to power up this
one,
> > then walk away and leave it running, without some prior  surgery:-(
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Nigel
> > GM8PZR
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Mini-T GPSDO

[GandalfG8]

 
In a message dated 24/09/2009 02:34:35 GMT Daylight Time, saidj...@aol.com  
writes:

since  you are only concerned about a couple of sample units, I would not 
be 
too  worried about the tin-whisker problem. Probability of failure is still 
 
quite  low for a single unit, even if massively higher than with lead  
solder. If you  ordered 10,000 units that would be another issue  :)

Even if the part stops to work, you can probably take a toothbrush  etc and 
 
you might be able to brush off all the whiskers (unless the  short was  
catastrophic).

I tried re-working RoHs boards with  lead solder, and this does not result  
in shiny solder joints either.  It doesn't even seem to change the eutectic 
 
temperature of the joint  much.

Would be very interested in any actual test results you get with  your  
boards though.



-
Hi Said
 
I don't think I'm likely to be ordering 10,000 of anything these days so I  
guess I shouldn't worry too much:-)
 
I wasn't sure if resoldering would work but it sounds like it wouldn't so  
I'll remember to avoid that one.
At the moment I can be pretty sure that most of what I work on is pre ROHS  
but as time goes on I suppose it well get a bit more confusing.
 
Im not sure either that I'm set up yet to provide precise enough  
information to be worthwhile but I'll see what I can do and keep you  informed.
 
regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
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[time-nuts] RoHS Solder

[John Green]

Interesting comments regarding. lead free solder. I was not aware of the tin
whisker problem. We went lead free here at work several years ago. I really
don't like the lead free solder we have to use on several accounts. As
mentioned, you don't get nice shiny joints. They look pretty much like cold
joints. We had to do some rework on some products and the lead free stuff
doesn't rework well at all. We ended up having several field failures. Not
good for customer relations. The processing temperatures are much higher
than with eutectic and sometimes the boards come out of the oven all brown
and crispy. Good thing most of what we make gets molded in plastic. I don't
use lead free in the lab. One of the many reasons is to keep customers from
putting engineering samples in equipment to be sold.
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[time-nuts] LPRO-101 Service manual

[Electronics and Books]

As there are a lot of LPRO units coming on the market from China. Does anyone 
has a pdf service manual of the LPRO-101 .
I have allready the repair guide by PE1FBO .

Met vriendelijke groeten
Regards

ElectronicsAndBooks at Yahoo dot com
http://www.ElectronicsAndBooks.tk



  

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Re: [time-nuts] Solartron 7150plus DMM Failure

[GandalfG8]

 
In a message dated 24/09/2009 10:27:54 GMT Daylight Time,  
phill...@btinternet.com writes:

Do you  know if the Solartron 7060 (I think of the same vintage), has the 
same  problem ?



Hi Roy
 
Sorry, but I don't know.
 
I don't have any specific information on the 7060, and the 7055/7065  
service manual doesn't indicate if the mains filter in that is a Schaffner  
part.
The Solartron part number is different from that for the Schaffner unit in  
the 7150plus but I'm not sure if that's any consolation.
 
If they did use a similar Schaffner filter though I would assume it's quite 
 likely, perhaps someone else on the list could advise?
 
regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Solartron 7150plus DMM Failure

[Roy Phillips]

Nigel
Do you know if the Solartron 7060 (I think of the same vintage), has the 
same problem ?

Roy

- Original Message - 
From: 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Solartron 7150plus DMM Failure




In a message dated 21/09/2009 21:53:35 GMT Daylight Time,
li...@philpem.me.uk writes:

I  suspect if I ever get another 7150+, I'll be swapping the line filter
on  the instrument's arrival...



---

I'd go along with that.

Given that I'd already been advised after my first one blew that it 
wasn't

unusual, I'm still wondering why I was daft enough to power up this  one,
then walk away and leave it running, without some prior  surgery:-(

regards

Nigel
GM8PZR


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and follow the instructions there.





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Re: [time-nuts] STEL-1173

[Peter Vince]

Hi Magnus,

 I was surprised to read that you had needed help to resolve the problem as,
not to over-inflate your ego, you seem to be very experienced and knowledgable. 
So don't tease us - what was it?

 TTFN,

  Peter Vince  (G8ZZR, London, England)


On Thu Sep 24  1:04 , Magnus Danielson  sent:

>Hi Steve,
>
>Steve Swift wrote:
>> I found this old note on Time-nuts:
>> ---
>> Hi!
>> 
>> I need a STEL-1173/CM in order to replace one in a failing unit. Would anyone
>> be sitting on a few so that I can help you get them of your hands (I suspect 
>> I
>> need a little supply of these) while helping a fellow time-nut to get his 
>> gear
>> into action?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>> 
>> Magnus Danielson cfmd at bredband.net
>> Mon Apr 17 07:41:46 EDT 2006
>> ---
>> Not sure if it still matters, but I have some of these.
>
>I was given one that resolve the issue at hand in a nice way, and got 
>that unit up and running again. The old device had failed in a 
>particularly nasty fashion that it took some experience from a fellow 
>time-nuts to give the hints and only after he gave me one I was able to 
>resolve the issue.
>
>However, I still would like to have a few spares. I trust the situation 
>may re-occur. So if you like that, then it would be much apprechiated.
>
>We can care about the details off-list.
>
>Cheers,
>Magnus
>
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