[time-nuts] FE-5680A - pinout, serial commands for 217400-30352-1 model

2011-04-20 Thread Jose Camara
 
I recently bought a pair of FEI FE-5680A Rubidium Frequency Standard
units on ebay (best offer of $150 for 2, free shipping from Hong Kong -
seller tortlex2). It was relatively cheap (compared to EFRATOM units 10
years ago), compact and modern (programmable DDS), perhaps even useful to
replace internal timebase in some test equipment.
 
The first thing I found out is that it wasn't easy to find *reliable
information on them. Many conflicting pinouts, different packaging,
connectors all for the same FE-5680A model. One source (a seller on eBay)
lists pin 3 as +5V, when in fact that is the lock indication output - I ran
the unit like that initially, and it gave 10MHz out for a while (possibly
the ACT240 buffer output diodes taking all the current to back feed the
power) until the output buffer burned (if you get 100mA on the 5V, this is
a good candidate for replacement - it right by the DB-9 connector,
accessible by removing 4 bottom screws (the bottom plate only). I replaced
it and used pin 4 instead, which is the correct one.
 
Another difficulty was to get the unit to respond to serial commands,
which was ultimately solved after finding the Rosetta stone (a technical
manual for the unit in my configuration). This particular model, part number
217400-30352-1 doesn't respond to the trimpot on the side (at least not with
any change in frequency) and uses the synthesizer for very fine adjustment
of frequency around nominal 10MHz. 32-bit value adjusts in 7E-13 increments
(way below the noise floor of the unit stability).
 
After my little tribulation in getting to this point, I decided to post
my verified findings, clearly identifying the model number of the unit, to
help others that already have the unit or decide to spring $75 to join this
nuthouse... er... community.
 
1. Manufacturer: FEI
2. Model FE-5680A, part number 217400-30352-1
3. Connector: DB-9M (male) with signals:
 
pin 1: +15V input (1.7A max when cold starting, 0.6A typ steady
state)
pin 2: GND (15V return) 
pin 3: LOCKn (low=locked, high=unlocked) ACT240 output 
pin 4: +5V input (80mA typ.) 
pin 5: GND (signal) 
pin 6: 1pps (about 1us positive pulse each second) 
pin 7: 10MHz sinewave (~1Vpp on 50 ohm) 
pin 8: RS-232 RX (receive commands into unit)
pin 9: RS-232 TX (unit sends responses to pc)
 
4. Trimpot with external access doesn't seem to do a thing - reportedly
C-field on other models.
5. Instead of wide range DDS, this unit seems to only generate 10MHz,
which can be fine tuned by programming a 32-bit value through the serial
commands. Make it very fine - my units needed about 14 counts to change
1Hz - that is about 7E-13 relative change per lsb. '
6. Serial commands: I found a manual for a slightly different unit
(Googled FE-5680A manual and got the top link
http://www.ham-radio.com/wa6vhs/Test%20equipment/FREQUENCY%20STANDARDS/FE-5
680A/5680%20TECH%20MANUAL.pdf
http://www.ham-radio.com/wa6vhs/Test%20equipment/FREQUENCY%20STANDARDS/FE-56
80A/5680%20TECH%20MANUAL.pdf ), which listed three commands. 9600,8,N,1
worked fine.
 
All commands have the general format [cmd] [lenght_lsb] [length_msb]
[xorchecksum] [data] [data] ... [data] [data xor checksum]

6.1 READ CURRENT OFFSET:  2D 04 00 29
sample response:  2D 09 00 24 FF FF FE C8 36
  This command simply returns the current offset value. In this
example it shows offset of FEC8, which is equivalent to -312 (this unit
had to be slowed down by 2.1E-10 to match my GPS trained reference).  
 
6.2 SET TEMPORARY OFFSET: 2E 09 00 27 aa bb cc dd cs (aabbccddee is
the 32-bit word to write, cs is the xor of aa,bb,cc,dd)
  no response is given to this command, use 2D command to
verify. Value is lost on power cycle. 
  Example command: 2E 09 00 27 FF FF FE C8 36
 
6.3 SET PERMANENT OFFSET: 2C 09 00 25 aa bb cc dd cs (same as 2E
command but also writes to EEPROM so survives a power cycle)
 
One would use the 2C command during a calibration (EEPROM life is 100k
cycles), and use the 2E command for uses like a GPS-trained reference.

 
   7. Notes:  Operating the unit without any heatsink gets the external case
to around 58C (keeps your coffee warm), could lead to premature failure as
ICs get even hotter inside. If you just turn it on for a couple hours at a
time, it might be OK, but a large heatsink on the bottom (or a small fan -
some of the slim hard disk coolers might be appropriate in size).
   I set the offset to -4096, 0 and 4096, measured a long average of 10s
gate readings, then fit a curve to it and calculated where it crossed
10.MHz, then sent the 2C command to burn it. It is easy to go
overboard, as the resolution offered is normally way overkill and beyond
measurement or stability capabilities of most time nuts (except perhaps for
a couple time-nutcases). For 

[time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread tom jones
Most if not all Citizen ecodrive watches are disciplined by 60hz light flicker 
that average
the 60hz light flicker over approximately 10 days before a rate adjustment is 
preformed.

I have four citizen ecodrives;

Plain jane quartz analogue ecodrive with mechanical calendar that is 60hz 
disciplined.

Stainless steel skyhawk ecodrive ana-digital that is 60hz disciplined. I've 
monitored this one
for over a week it was holding  13 miliseconds for over a weeks duration (off 
the wrist mode) compaired to my cesium and ribidium references and got 
distracted from futher measurements of this citizen skyhawk as I was consumed 
with other measurements and comparisons between loran gps cesium ribidium and 
other watches.

Blue angles citizen skyhawk ana-digital that half the time seems to be 60hz 
disciplined and other times unsure.
This blue angles citizen skyhawk has the same movement as the stainless steel 
skyhawk which is definately 60hz disciplined.
I suspect this blue angles skyhawk that I purchased out of the country could 
have 50hz and 60hz dicipline modes?

My fourth citizen ecodrive is the stars  stripes forever yacht timer 
ana-digital which is 60hz diciplined.
This watch reboots every feb 28th at midnight to utc time zones and jan 1 2004 
(not sure of the exact year is crashes to) some kind of leap year bug!

Only unexpected temperature changes experienced by the ecodrive citizen watches 
produce significant error 
(.5 to 1 second over several days of temperature varation) there rate will 
correct after an approximate 10 day time constant.

Many wrist watch forums make reference to citizen ecodrive rate accuratces 
remarking that citizen uses some propriatary rate techniques. It's simply 60hz 
light flicker received at the ecodrives solarbattery/photocell.

I would recomend when setting your citizen ecodrive watches to set them 2.5 to 
3 seconds fast if worn continous because that is approximately how much time 
will be lost before its rate gets compensated the first time.

A Great Day to All , Tom


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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread jmfranke
Do they detect the light flicker or the ambient ac field. Light flicker is 
120 Hz.


Very interesting,

John  WA4WDL

--
From: tom jones epoch_t...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:43 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

Most if not all Citizen ecodrive watches are disciplined by 60hz light 
flicker that average
the 60hz light flicker over approximately 10 days before a rate adjustment 
is preformed.


I have four citizen ecodrives;

Plain jane quartz analogue ecodrive with mechanical calendar that is 60hz 
disciplined.


Stainless steel skyhawk ecodrive ana-digital that is 60hz disciplined. 
I've monitored this one
for over a week it was holding  13 miliseconds for over a weeks duration 
(off the wrist mode) compaired to my cesium and ribidium references and 
got distracted from futher measurements of this citizen skyhawk as I was 
consumed with other measurements and comparisons between loran gps cesium 
ribidium and other watches.


Blue angles citizen skyhawk ana-digital that half the time seems to be 
60hz disciplined and other times unsure.
This blue angles citizen skyhawk has the same movement as the stainless 
steel skyhawk which is definately 60hz disciplined.
I suspect this blue angles skyhawk that I purchased out of the country 
could have 50hz and 60hz dicipline modes?


My fourth citizen ecodrive is the stars  stripes forever yacht timer 
ana-digital which is 60hz diciplined.
This watch reboots every feb 28th at midnight to utc time zones and jan 1 
2004 (not sure of the exact year is crashes to) some kind of leap year 
bug!


Only unexpected temperature changes experienced by the ecodrive citizen 
watches produce significant error
(.5 to 1 second over several days of temperature varation) there rate will 
correct after an approximate 10 day time constant.


Many wrist watch forums make reference to citizen ecodrive rate accuratces 
remarking that citizen uses some propriatary rate techniques. It's simply 
60hz light flicker received at the ecodrives solarbattery/photocell.


I would recomend when setting your citizen ecodrive watches to set them 
2.5 to 3 seconds fast if worn continous because that is approximately how 
much time will be lost before its rate gets compensated the first time.


A Great Day to All , Tom


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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread John Ackermann N8UR
I wonder if it's smart enough to have a sanity check to determine 
whether the line frequency is 50 vs. 60 Hz?


BTW -- I have an Ecodrive watch, but it's radio controlled (as well as 
solar charging), so haven't seen any reference to this setting method 
before.


John


On 4/20/2011 10:13 AM, paul swed wrote:

My bet would be flicker and divide by 120. Doesn't really matter. But since
these watches use the light to charge the battery, sensing the frequency is
a byproduct. Nice and simple.

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:10 AM, jmfrankejmfra...@cox.net  wrote:


Do they detect the light flicker or the ambient ac field. Light flicker is
120 Hz.

Very interesting,

John  WA4WDL

--
From: tom jonesepoch_t...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 9:43 AM
To:time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

  Most if not all Citizen ecodrive watches are disciplined by 60hz light

flicker that average
the 60hz light flicker over approximately 10 days before a rate adjustment
is preformed.

I have four citizen ecodrives;

Plain jane quartz analogue ecodrive with mechanical calendar that is 60hz
disciplined.

Stainless steel skyhawk ecodrive ana-digital that is 60hz disciplined.
I've monitored this one
for over a week it was holding  13 miliseconds for over a weeks duration
(off the wrist mode) compaired to my cesium and ribidium references and got
distracted from futher measurements of this citizen skyhawk as I was
consumed with other measurements and comparisons between loran gps cesium
ribidium and other watches.

Blue angles citizen skyhawk ana-digital that half the time seems to be
60hz disciplined and other times unsure.
This blue angles citizen skyhawk has the same movement as the stainless
steel skyhawk which is definately 60hz disciplined.
I suspect this blue angles skyhawk that I purchased out of the country
could have 50hz and 60hz dicipline modes?

My fourth citizen ecodrive is the stars  stripes forever yacht timer
ana-digital which is 60hz diciplined.
This watch reboots every feb 28th at midnight to utc time zones and jan 1
2004 (not sure of the exact year is crashes to) some kind of leap year bug!

Only unexpected temperature changes experienced by the ecodrive citizen
watches produce significant error
(.5 to 1 second over several days of temperature varation) there rate will
correct after an approximate 10 day time constant.

Many wrist watch forums make reference to citizen ecodrive rate accuratces
remarking that citizen uses some propriatary rate techniques. It's simply
60hz light flicker received at the ecodrives solarbattery/photocell.

I would recomend when setting your citizen ecodrive watches to set them
2.5 to 3 seconds fast if worn continous because that is approximately how
much time will be lost before its rate gets compensated the first time.

A Great Day to All , Tom


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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread cook michael




Le 20/04/2011 16:17, John Ackermann N8UR a écrit :


I wonder if it's smart enough to have a sanity check to determine 
whether the line frequency is 50 vs. 60 Hz?


BTW -- I have an Ecodrive watch, but it's radio controlled (as well as 
solar charging), so haven't seen any reference to this setting method 
before.


John


On 4/20/2011 10:13 AM, paul swed wrote:
My bet would be flicker and divide by 120. Doesn't really matter. But 
since
these watches use the light to charge the battery, sensing the 
frequency is

a byproduct. Nice and simple.

I don't buy it. Makes a nice urban myth though. Incandescent sources 
don't flicker like fluorescent sources and the Skyhawk user manual does 
not recommend charging in front of flouresecent tubes to maintain accuracy.






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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread paul swed
Thats what I also thought though did not plan to test it.
As for mains stability. They are indeed stable over time weeks and months
and are corrected. This was a use case for numbers of the austron clocks and
freq references.
Plus the frequency accuracy is needed for inter-tie networks and power
sharing/selling.
Regards

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Joseph M Gwinn gw...@raytheon.com wrote:

 time-nuts-boun...@febo.com wrote on 04/20/2011 10:38:41 AM:

  From:
 
  cook michael michael.c...@sfr.fr
 
  To:
 
  time-nuts@febo.com
 
  Date:
 
  04/20/2011 10:39 AM
 
  Subject:
 
  Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch
 
  Sent by:
 
  time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 
 
 
 
  Le 20/04/2011 16:17, John Ackermann N8UR a écrit :
  
   I wonder if it's smart enough to have a sanity check to determine
   whether the line frequency is 50 vs. 60 Hz?
  
   BTW -- I have an Ecodrive watch, but it's radio controlled (as well as

   solar charging), so haven't seen any reference to this setting method
   before.
  
   John
   
  
   On 4/20/2011 10:13 AM, paul swed wrote:
   My bet would be flicker and divide by 120. Doesn't really matter. But

   since
   these watches use the light to charge the battery, sensing the
   frequency is
   a byproduct. Nice and simple.
  
  I don't buy it. Makes a nice urban myth though. Incandescent sources
  don't flicker like fluorescent sources and the Skyhawk user manual does
  not recommend charging in front of flouresecent tubes to
  maintain accuracy.

 There is plenty of 120 Hz (or 100 Hz) ripple on incandescent light.  No
 fluorescent lamps required.  It's easy to test the issue with a photodiode
 and a scope.

 Joe

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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp
In message banlktimuxps8gbxp99ra8ijzvheotp8...@mail.gmail.com, paul swed writ
es:

Thats what I also thought though did not plan to test it.
As for mains stability. They are indeed stable over time weeks and months
and are corrected.

Are you sure ?

Here in europe that was lost in the privatization of the grid: Nobody
was charged with paying for the extra power needed to capture lost
cycles, so now they just try to keep it close to 50.0Hz and don't
care about the integral.

I would be surprised if it were any different in USA.


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread Jim Lux

On 4/20/11 8:26 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

In messagebanlktimuxps8gbxp99ra8ijzvheotp8...@mail.gmail.com, paul swed writ
es:


Thats what I also thought though did not plan to test it.
As for mains stability. They are indeed stable over time weeks and months
and are corrected.

Are you sure ?

Here in europe that was lost in the privatization of the grid: Nobody
was charged with paying for the extra power needed to capture lost
cycles, so now they just try to keep it close to 50.0Hz and don't
care about the integral.

I would be surprised if it were any different in USA.

It's probably somewhat better, because there are long distance 
transmission lines which rely on careful management of relative phases 
(and by extension frequencies) to control the power flow on the line.  
California consumes about 50 GW (peak)   (26 GW for Ca Independent 
System Operator as I type this).  The two Pacific Intertie lines (one AC 
and one HVDC) carry 7GW-ish.  That AC line is quite the challenge to 
stabilize (it's 1000km long, and I've heard that transients take hours 
to die out). (and, of course, they use GPS heavily to provide an 
accurate time reference for reporting instantaneous phase and amplitude 
of the lines)


I seem to recall a site somewhere that gave statistics (in quasi real 
time) of the system frequency here in Southern California.


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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread Christian Vogel

Hi Poul-Henning,

On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:26:15 +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk  
wrote:


In message banlktimuxps8gbxp99ra8ijzvheotp8...@mail.gmail.com, paul  
swed writ es:

...
As for mains stability. They are indeed stable over time weeks and  
months

and are corrected.

...

Here in europe that was lost in the privatization of the grid: Nobody
was charged with paying for the extra power needed to capture lost
cycles, so now they just try to keep it close to 50.0Hz and don't
care about the integral.


where do you get that information? The ETSOE(transmission operators  
network)-handbook
which specifies the control-loops for frequency/phase have a section on  
TIME CONTROL.
They define different levels of allowed offsets between integrated network  
phase and UTC.


There are three bands with allowed deviations of +/- 20, 30 and 60 seconds
(target, tolerated and exceptional).

https://www.entsoe.eu/resources/publications/entso-e/operation-handbook/

--- QUOTE from Section P1, Page 29 ---
D. Time Control
[UCTE Operation Handbook Appendix 1 Chapter D: Time Control, 2004] {update  
under preparation}


Introduction
The objective of  TIME CONTROL is to monitor and limit discrepancies  
observed between
SYNCHRONOUS TIME and universal co-ordinated time (UTC) in the  SYNCHRONOUS  
AREA.
Reasonably it is applied during periods of uninterrupted interconnected  
operation, where the

SYNCHRONOUS TIME is the same in all control areas.
...
A discrepancy between SYNCHRONOUS TIME and  UTC is tolerated within a range
of ±20 seconds (without need for time control  actions).
---/QUOTE---

Greetings from Germany,

Chris

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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread Jim Lux

On 4/20/11 8:53 AM, Jim Lux wrote:

On 4/20/11 8:26 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
In messagebanlktimuxps8gbxp99ra8ijzvheotp8...@mail.gmail.com, paul 
swed writ

es:


Thats what I also thought though did not plan to test it.
As for mains stability. They are indeed stable over time weeks and 
months

and are corrected.

Are you sure ?

Here in europe that was lost in the privatization of the grid: Nobody
was charged with paying for the extra power needed to capture lost
cycles, so now they just try to keep it close to 50.0Hz and don't
care about the integral.

I would be surprised if it were any different in USA.

It's probably somewhat better, because there are long distance 
transmission lines which rely on careful management of relative phases 
(and by extension frequencies) to control the power flow on the line.  
California consumes about 50 GW (peak)   (26 GW for Ca Independent 
System Operator as I type this).  The two Pacific Intertie lines (one 
AC and one HVDC) carry 7GW-ish.  That AC line is quite the challenge 
to stabilize (it's 1000km long, and I've heard that transients take 
hours to die out). (and, of course, they use GPS heavily to provide an 
accurate time reference for reporting instantaneous phase and 
amplitude of the lines)


I seem to recall a site somewhere that gave statistics (in quasi real 
time) of the system frequency here in Southern California.


I found this in a generator interconnection agreement:

This frequency response control shall, when enabled at the direction of 
CAISO, continuously monitor the system frequency and automatically 
reduce the real power output of the Asynchronous Generating Facility 
with a droop equal to a one-hundred (100) percent decrease in plant 
output for a five (5) percent rise in frequency (five (5) percent droop) 
above an intentional dead band of 0.036 Hz


---

Here's a nice training presentation about how they measure and manage 
system frequency and relative phase (to fractions of a degree)

http://www.phasor-rtdms.com/downloads/guides/CAISO_RTDMS-Training01312006.pdf

There's some pictures of actual frequency disturbances during 
transients, and I leave it as an exercise for the reader to turn that 
into an AVAR spec.


That's all about short run (taus of tens/hundreds seconds)...
The system generally regulates frequency over 100k seconds (a day) to 
keep electric clocks reasonably on time. I think the standard is no 
more than 2 seconds deviation from UTC which implies, what, something 
like 5E-4 ADEV for tau of 100,000 secs?


tvb's data at http://leapsecond.com/pages/mains/  seems to show similar 
statistics.  His plot of phase data is labeled seconds, and if that's 
right, then his local power is substantially worse than the 2 second 
error metric.


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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread Poul-Henning Kamp
In message 4daf0b0d.4080...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes:

I found this in a generator interconnection agreement:

This frequency response control shall, when enabled at the direction of 
CAISO, continuously monitor the system frequency and automatically 
reduce the real power output of the Asynchronous Generating Facility 
with a droop equal to a one-hundred (100) percent decrease in plant 
output for a five (5) percent rise in frequency (five (5) percent droop) 
above an intentional dead band of 0.036 Hz

Neither that text nor any other I have been able to find, guarantee
that the integral (= long term average) of the frequency will
converge on 60Hz, only that the instantaneous frequency will stay
in an particular range.

tvb's data at http://leapsecond.com/pages/mains/  [...]

That data confirms what I said:  Maybe if you average over a couple
of months, but the practical problems related to doing that are
enormous.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread Kasper Pedersen
On 04/20/2011 05:26 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

 Are you sure ?
 
 Here in europe that was lost in the privatization of the grid: Nobody
 was charged with paying for the extra power needed to capture lost
 cycles, so now they just try to keep it close to 50.0Hz and don't
 care about the integral.

The mainland Europe grid (which you are not on, I know..) looks like this:

http://n1.taur.dk/grid/plt.png
http://n1.taur.dk/grid/pltw.png (very large with grid)

y axis is phase in seconds, x axis is time

The plot is 130 days long, 60sec/130d= 5ppm
but
in that plot is also 5 days in a row where the frequency is 230ppm high.

/Kasper Pedersen

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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread Jim Lux

On 4/20/11 9:39 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

In message4daf0b0d.4080...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes:


I found this in a generator interconnection agreement:

This frequency response control shall, when enabled at the direction of
CAISO, continuously monitor the system frequency and automatically
reduce the real power output of the Asynchronous Generating Facility
with a droop equal to a one-hundred (100) percent decrease in plant
output for a five (5) percent rise in frequency (five (5) percent droop)
above an intentional dead band of 0.036 Hz

Neither that text nor any other I have been able to find, guarantee
that the integral (= long term average) of the frequency will
converge on 60Hz, only that the instantaneous frequency will stay
in an particular range.


There's the integrated time shall not deviate more than 2 seconds from 
actual sort of requirement.  I don't know what the integration interval 
on that is, but I think it implies that in any given day, there will be 
60*86400 cycles plus minus 120 cycles. And that further, a sequence of 
+120, +120, +120 on successive days wouldn't be allowed.


I also noted that they seem to want the corrections to be done at the 
top of the hour (they speed up or slow down the 60 Hz until they're 
realigned)..  I don't know, off hand, how much difference that would 
make in power flow (say they adjust by 0.01 Hz... over 1 second, that's 
a phase shift of 3.6 degrees, which is pretty big in the power 
management world)




tvb's data at http://leapsecond.com/pages/mains/  [...]

That data confirms what I said:  Maybe if you average over a couple
of months, but the practical problems related to doing that are
enormous.




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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread Jim Lux

On 4/20/11 9:44 AM, Kasper Pedersen wrote:


The mainland Europe grid (which you are not on, I know..) looks like this:

http://n1.taur.dk/grid/plt.png
http://n1.taur.dk/grid/pltw.png (very large with grid)

y axis is phase in seconds, x axis is time

The plot is 130 days long, 60sec/130d= 5ppm
but
in that plot is also 5 days in a row where the frequency is 230ppm high.


What's that huge excursion between Christmas and New Years?  Is that a 
reflection of a big load or generation change during the week?


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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch (really?)

2011-04-20 Thread Bill Hawkins
Group,

Google can't find anything for citizen ecodrive watch time sync 60 hz
except a few where the k was left out of 60 khz. All of the watches
that synched received WWVB at 60 KHz.

The claim of 13 millisecond accuracy from line frequency is suspect. There
is no control of the power grid to that accuracy. It is not possible.
The weekly accuracy is measured in cycles. Variation during the day
can be seconds, losing during the day and gaining at night.

It seems to me that the filtering algorithm for 60 Hz would have severe
underflow problems with floating point math in a low power processor.

Bill Hawkins


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[time-nuts] FE-5680A pinout

2011-04-20 Thread Murray Greenman
The confusion is understandable. There are so many different variants of
the FE-5680A, and they are not easy to identify.

Some of the information you see out there is from folk who measure the
voltage on the pins with a meter, not understanding what they are
looking at. When I've investigated such devices (I have several FEI
units) I start by tracing my way back from the power supply regulators
to determine where the power goes in, and what it should be, to avoid
mistakes. It's also been a useful technique with things like GPSDOs
where nothing is known about the pinouts (Trimble NTGS-50AA for
example).

Sure is frustrating when you have one that isn't frequency agile! One of
my FEI units is an FE-5680B with only 1pps output. The Chinese supplier
thought it was faulty, but the 1pps pulse is only 5us wide, and isn't
present until the unit has locked. I found a very useful 60MHz reference
inside the unit as well.

73,
Murray ZL1BPU


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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch

2011-04-20 Thread Chris Albertson
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote:
 On 4/20/11 9:39 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

 In message4daf0b0d.4080...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes:

 I found this in a generator interconnection agreement:

 This frequency response control shall, when enabled at the direction of
 CAISO, continuously monitor the system frequency and automatically
 reduce the real power output of the Asynchronous Generating Facility
 with a droop equal to a one-hundred (100) percent decrease in plant
 output for a five (5) percent rise in frequency (five (5) percent droop)
 above an intentional dead band of 0.036 Hz

I used to know and older engineer who worked with power systems.  He'd
be in his late 80's now.  He explained the process they used to bring
on-line a new generator.   Connect a light bulb between the hot line
of the generator and the utility power and adjust the phase and
frequency until the bulb went out and stayed out, then throw the
switch.   not exactly high tech.  I'd bet there are still places where
this is what's used.

-- 
=
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A pinout

2011-04-20 Thread Joseph Gray
I know that several list members have bought FE-5680A rubidiums. Of
all the various ebay sellers that you have bought this model from, who
would you recommend? If I wanted a straight 10MHz unit vs a frequency
agile unit, would you recommend a different seller?

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Murray Greenman
murray.green...@rakon.com wrote:
 The confusion is understandable. There are so many different variants of
 the FE-5680A, and they are not easy to identify.

 Some of the information you see out there is from folk who measure the
 voltage on the pins with a meter, not understanding what they are
 looking at. When I've investigated such devices (I have several FEI
 units) I start by tracing my way back from the power supply regulators
 to determine where the power goes in, and what it should be, to avoid
 mistakes. It's also been a useful technique with things like GPSDOs
 where nothing is known about the pinouts (Trimble NTGS-50AA for
 example).

 Sure is frustrating when you have one that isn't frequency agile! One of
 my FEI units is an FE-5680B with only 1pps output. The Chinese supplier
 thought it was faulty, but the 1pps pulse is only 5us wide, and isn't
 present until the unit has locked. I found a very useful 60MHz reference
 inside the unit as well.

 73,
 Murray ZL1BPU


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[time-nuts] Choice of Rb vendor

2011-04-20 Thread Murray Greenman
Joe,
If all you need is a fixed 10MHz source, you might be better getting an
Efratom LPRO-101, which are available from the same sources. The
LPRO-101 doesn't need a heatsink, and does not have the confusing array
of different versions and options that the FEI units suffer from.

As for suppliers, I have had good results with 'Fluke.1' also known as
'NBBob', and probably other aliases. He is fast and reliable on
delivery, and replaces faulty equipment without argument. I have no
experience with any other suppliers.

Most of these suppliers seem to have little knowledge of what they are
selling, so don't trust the technical details given without checking
them yourself.

73,
Murray ZL1BPU


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Re: [time-nuts] Choice of Rb vendor

2011-04-20 Thread Dan Rae

On 4/20/2011 3:02 PM, Murray Greenman wrote:

Joe,
If all you need is a fixed 10MHz source, you might be better getting an
Efratom LPRO-101, which are available from the same sources. The
LPRO-101 doesn't need a heatsink,

Not so Murray, it really does need one, similar to the FEI.

and does not have the confusing array
of different versions and options that the FEI units suffer from.

Very true.

I just got 6 Datum LPRO-101s for a particular application that needs 10 
MHz only and they seem very user friendly with a lot of good interfacing 
information in the manual.  They need a single 19 to 24 Volt supply 
which is line with a lot of time nut stuff.  Stability etc., seems about 
equivalent to that of the FEI unit I tried, but it has a simple C-Field 
adjustment.


They can be had in the US for less than $40 plus shipping.

Dan

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[time-nuts] HP 5373 rom images

2011-04-20 Thread Mark Sims

I downloaded the HP 5372A ROM images from Dieder's site,  programmed them into 
27C010's,  installed them on a 5372A CPU board...  no joy.   System does not 
boot.   The status lights on the CPU board flash for a while,  then stop with 
the left three LEDs lit.

I tried the W9 ROM size jumper in both positions (it is labeled 512K/2M) and it 
does the same thing.  Has anybody tried to use those ROM images?  Geraldo,  are 
you sure all the ROMs are 128Kx8 (HP part number 1818-4060)?  The 5372A has 4 
512Kx8 (HP part number 1818-3825) and 4 128Kx8 (HP part number 1818-3825) ROMs. 
    
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Re: [time-nuts] Choice of Rb vendor

2011-04-20 Thread J. L. Trantham
My recollection of reading the LPRO-101 Manual is that there is a
requirement for a heat sink for continuous operation to keep the baseplate
less than 70 degrees C.  It is OK to turn it on for 4 or 5 minutes to make
sure it 'locks' but, IIRC, there is a specific specification for a heat sink
with a thermal resistance of less than 2 degrees C/W for ambient
temperatures greater than 50 degrees C and there is a requirement that the
baseplate be kept less than 70 degrees C, with either forced air cooling,
mounting on a base plate or heat sink.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Murray Greenman
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 5:02 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Choice of Rb vendor


Joe,
If all you need is a fixed 10MHz source, you might be better getting an
Efratom LPRO-101, which are available from the same sources. The LPRO-101
doesn't need a heatsink, and does not have the confusing array of different
versions and options that the FEI units suffer from.

As for suppliers, I have had good results with 'Fluke.1' also known as
'NBBob', and probably other aliases. He is fast and reliable on delivery,
and replaces faulty equipment without argument. I have no experience with
any other suppliers.

Most of these suppliers seem to have little knowledge of what they are
selling, so don't trust the technical details given without checking them
yourself.

73,
Murray ZL1BPU


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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5373 rom images

2011-04-20 Thread Geraldo Lino de Campos
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 9:20 PM, Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com wrote:

I downloaded the HP 5372A ROM images from Dieder's site,  programmed them
into 27C010's, installed them on a 5372A CPU board...  no joy.   System does
not boot.
The status lights on the CPU board flash for a while,  then stop with the
left three LEDs lit.

I tried the W9 ROM size jumper in both positions (it is labeled 512K/2M)
and it does the same thing.  Has anybody tried to use those ROM images?
 Geraldo,  are you sure all the ROMs are 128Kx8 (HP part number
1818-4060)?  The 5372A has 4 512Kx8 (HP part number 1818-3825) and
 4 128Kx8 (HP part number 1818-3825) ROMs.

The ROMs are for the 5373, not 5372. I didn´t check the HP part number, but
checked the part id: AM23C010-200, 128Kx8.

I don´t have a 5372. I used several boards of a 5372 (A3, A4, A5 and A6) to
repair my 5373,
 that is working fine now.
I do not have any information on the processor boards, however.

-- 

Geraldo Lino de Campos
gera...@decampos.net
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Re: [time-nuts] 60hz disciplined watch (really?)

2011-04-20 Thread Raj
This looks good!

http://www.ablogtoread.com/citizen-satellite-eco-drive-watch-gets-time-from-space/

At 21-04-2011, you wrote:
Group,

Google can't find anything for citizen ecodrive watch time sync 60 hz
except a few where the k was left out of 60 khz. All of the watches
that synched received WWVB at 60 KHz.

-- 
Raj, VU2ZAP
Bangalore, India. 


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