Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
Hi Ok, you have an unusually well controlled environment in your shack. The pops are the temperature just barely making it to a 1 C excursion. Think of your temperature as a sort of sine wave. The pops are the peaks of the sine wave. Bob On Sep 10, 2013, at 10:02 PM, quartz55 quart...@hughes.net wrote: Well, here's a shot with me putting a fan under the bottom of the unit and you can see the temp immediately start to drop from 39.7 down to 29.7 and then I take the fan away and it goes back up to 37.7 and now I've let the bottom breathe which I had blocked off by letting it sit on the bottom. I would say the temp sensor is working, but still why those jumps? I'll let it run with the bottom/top open and see what happens then. But it was doing these jumps with the cover off before as I remember. Wonder if I should have a bit of forced ventilation in this thing? http://s251.photobucket.com/user/DogTi/media/time/temptest_zps4eda29a5.jpg.html?sort=3o=0 Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
I set the temp scale to 250m°C/div last night and it remained steady for quit a while, but then it started the jumping again. It seems to jump on 1° increments, like from 37.750 to 38.749 in less than 1 minute, but there are step variations during the 1° movements. So what you're saying is it won't affect the freq stab or adev? And yes the room temp is quite stable, it's about 1/2 underground to 3 sides and the A/C runs most of the time this time of year. I guess it's not worth hounding the seller about it if the others he has are just like it. It's just a matter of if I want to replace the chip. Looks like they're up to DS1620S by now. I'm not going to worry about it for now. But I am going to move the antenna over to where it sees the sky without the trees this morning before it gets to 90°. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
Dave wrote: I set the temp scale to 250m°C/div last night and it remained steady for quit a while, but then it started the jumping again. It seems to jump on 1° increments, like from 37.750 to 38.749 in less than 1 minute, but there are step variations during the 1° movements. I do not know whether LH just displays every n-th sample to produce long-time-scale plots, or whether it averages n samples to get the displayed value. If it averages, each pixel would include data from more than one sample, which would produce intermediate values that the GPSDO did not actually report. You may want to set the time scale so you can see each one-second sample (I think one minute per division will do this). At that scale, you may find that all of the samples are in one degree increments. In other words, the appearance of intermediate values may be an artifact of display averaging -- the actual data from the GPSDO may be strictly in 1v increments. Mark could say for sure. So what you're saying is it won't affect the freq stab or adev? We (the time-nuts community) do not have hard data about how the temperature data is used in the Trimble GPSDOs, but it appears that it is not used during locked operation except to teach the unit about the OCXO's temperature coefficient. What it has learned is applied during holdover in an attempt to improve holdover stability. I doubt many time nuts would make critical measurements while their GPSDO was unlocked, so there is probably no practical difference as far as we are concerned. Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
Geee, what's so hard to understand? As I said several times before, the firmware on these units can only read the temperature sensor to 1 degree increments (there is a 0.25C offset). The temperature jumping around is the temperature crossing the 1 degree C quantization threshold. Most of the firmwares do a running average of the last 10 readings, so you can see some intermediate values. Also, due to a bug in the temperature sensor chip, you can see occasional spikes in the temperature readings. These show up as a step impulse on the leading edge followed a decay over around 10 seconds. All of these temperature sensor issues have been discussed ad nauseum here before. Search the archives... ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
Thanks Charles, I'm not certain myself it it's the temp chip or the way LH handles the information. It doesn't matter like you say, there's no use doing any measurements with the unit unlocked. Otherwise here is a trace while I moved the antenna. Any comments on how it reacted in holdover? http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/holdover_zps35d7e81b.jpg And here is where the antenna is now, this is looking straight north, so the sky behind me is nearly clear to the horizon and straight up isn't bad either. http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/gpsant_zps2963365a.jpg Dave N3DT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
I heard from RDR electroncis this morning and he says, like Arthur says, the older chips work better with LH. I'm just not going to worry about it for now. He was willing to take it back, but I'm not going to do that. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
Lady Heather just reports the data the the unit sends, so the precision that it sends it. Garbage in, garbage out... When the program is down-scaling a plot in time, it just skips data points unless display filtering is on (F D command). Then it forward averages the next *n* data points for each plotted pixel. Oh, and those multiple ADEV curves on the plot you saw were due to the way the program plots data. The plot area is only erased and redrawn when the plot scrolls to the left. If you have the view interval set to 4 hours and only three hours of data have come in, the plot never scrolls. The ADEV curves are plotted as each new point is calculated and are drawn on the screen without erasing the old plots if the plot is not scrolling. This lets you see how the ADEV values develop as more data comes in. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
Well, this is interesting, after moving the antenna and doing a new survey, the OSC ppt has gone down quite a bit. Looky here, you can see the before, the survey and after ppt http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/survey11sep_zpsff5a5b58.jpg Would a precision survey do any better? Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] TBolt temperature sensor
With all that discussion about the old temperature sensor in the TBolt no longer being available, it would be easy to program a small microcontroller like the Silabs C8051F300 to emulate the old Dallas part. The chip costs $2.32 in unit quantity. It has an I2C transceiver, an analog/digital converter and a temperature sensor. It would be a 4 wire solution with no additional part. When I have a minute, I may write the software, I have a couple of TBolts here that could use it. Didier KO4BB -- Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker while I do other things. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
I can testify to Warren's comments. I've got an Adafruit Breakout Board that I hook up to my computer from time to time, and it marches all around the neighborhood on the map looking for my house. =) Eventually my timing antenna will go up in the attic, just under the peak. Bob - AE6RV From: WarrenS warrensjmail-...@yahoo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA Dave With your GPS Antenna sitting underneath all those multipath reflectors (the other antenna's above it), That is far from optimal from a time-nut standpoint if you are trying to get the best performance possible. Should strive for no metal or reflective surfaces above the GPS antenna in any direction. ws * - Original Message - From: quartz55 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA Thanks Charles, I'm not certain myself it it's the temp chip or the way LH handles the information. It doesn't matter like you say, there's no use doing any measurements with the unit unlocked. Otherwise here is a trace while I moved the antenna. Any comments on how it reacted in holdover? http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/holdover_zps35d7e81b.jpg And here is where the antenna is now, this is looking straight north, so the sky behind me is nearly clear to the horizon and straight up isn't bad either. http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/gpsant_zps2963365a.jpg Dave N3DT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
Dave With your GPS Antenna sitting underneath all those multipath reflectors (the other antenna's above it), That is far from optimal from a time-nut standpoint if you are trying to get the best performance possible. Should strive for no metal or reflective surfaces above the GPS antenna in any direction. ws * - Original Message - From: quartz55 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA Thanks Charles, I'm not certain myself it it's the temp chip or the way LH handles the information. It doesn't matter like you say, there's no use doing any measurements with the unit unlocked. Otherwise here is a trace while I moved the antenna. Any comments on how it reacted in holdover? http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/holdover_zps35d7e81b.jpg And here is where the antenna is now, this is looking straight north, so the sky behind me is nearly clear to the horizon and straight up isn't bad either. http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/gpsant_zps2963365a.jpg Dave N3DT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
I am tempted to use the monty python exhortation Start again If I am reading your screen shots correctly the 01:51:57 UTC shot is before the antenna move and the 14:02:03 one after the move. HOWEVER, both shots show the same saved position. That is certainly not going to be optimal. You should let it survey again. Mike Le 11 sept. 2013 à 16:17, quartz55 a écrit : Thanks Charles, I'm not certain myself it it's the temp chip or the way LH handles the information. It doesn't matter like you say, there's no use doing any measurements with the unit unlocked. Otherwise here is a trace while I moved the antenna. Any comments on how it reacted in holdover? http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/holdover_zps35d7e81b.jpg And here is where the antenna is now, this is looking straight north, so the sky behind me is nearly clear to the horizon and straight up isn't bad either. http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/gpsant_zps2963365a.jpg Dave N3DT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] TBolt temperature sensor
It looks like there might be one or two sellers on ebay that still have the old chips. Just make sure to ask what version the chip is before you buy. Ed On 9/11/2013 10:24 AM, Didier Juges wrote: With all that discussion about the old temperature sensor in the TBolt no longer being available, it would be easy to program a small microcontroller like the Silabs C8051F300 to emulate the old Dallas part. The chip costs $2.32 in unit quantity. It has an I2C transceiver, an analog/digital converter and a temperature sensor. It would be a 4 wire solution with no additional part. When I have a minute, I may write the software, I have a couple of TBolts here that could use it. Didier KO4BB ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] TBolt temperature sensor
On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 11:00:15 -0600, Ed Palmer wrote: It looks like there might be one or two sellers on ebay that still have the old chips. Just make sure to ask what version the chip is before you buy. If the pics desc are correct this seller has them *Bay# 120552309518 http://tinyurl.com/pyyprva CFO ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 82357B GPIB USB from China
I didn't have any problem seeing it in windows with Agilent's IOLabSuite or whatever it's called, so this version seems to emulate the real thing. But, like they say: I don't do windows. =) From: Volker Esper ail...@t-online.de To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 82357B GPIB USB from China I bought one about a year ago but couldn't get it running under Win XP. There were a dozen well-meant advices on the forums that told me to read the firmware and flash the beast with a better one. However, I couldn't keep my nerve, so I purchased a Prologix adapter - which worked instantly. Volker Am 10.09.2013 16:07, schrieb Bob Smither: My apologies if this is in the archives. I could not find any discussion about it. A seller on Ebay is offering a USB-GPIB interface equivalent to the Agilent 82357B: http://www.ebay.com/itm/82357B-GPIB-USB-Interface-Compatible-with-AGILENT-82357B-/261270515849?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3cd4efb089 or http://tinyurl.com/qbsjjmr Has anyone here tried this? In particular, can it be made to work under Linux? I have the Prologix unit which works great with simple PERL scripts under Linux, but always looking for a bargain! Thanks, ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
Oh, the XRef from VK3HZ is at the PO, I'm going to go get it. Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
The lat lon did change when I did the survey. On google, the lat lon is real close, a foot or so for the before position and after also. It certainly doesn't march around the neighborhood looking, the last survey must have only taken a few minutes. As far as antenna position, I guess maybe I can put it over on the hughes dish, but it's closer to the trees there. How far away from those beams do I need to get, so they're not in the el mask? Maybe I could put it on one of the roof vents but the coax will then drag across the shingles. I'll have to think about this. On the deck is good, but the wifey wouldn't go for that and it would be lots lower. Maybe if I paint it flat black she won't see it. You can see where google reports it here and the arrow is more where it is, so maybe it's 4-5' off. http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/roof_zps5eccff6a.jpg Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 82357B GPIB USB from China
I bought one about a year ago but couldn't get it running under Win XP. There were a dozen well-meant advices on the forums that told me to read the firmware and flash the beast with a better one. However, I couldn't keep my nerve, so I purchased a Prologix adapter - which worked instantly. Volker Am 10.09.2013 16:07, schrieb Bob Smither: My apologies if this is in the archives. I could not find any discussion about it. A seller on Ebay is offering a USB-GPIB interface equivalent to the Agilent 82357B: http://www.ebay.com/itm/82357B-GPIB-USB-Interface-Compatible-with-AGILENT-82357B-/261270515849?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3cd4efb089 or http://tinyurl.com/qbsjjmr Has anyone here tried this? In particular, can it be made to work under Linux? I have the Prologix unit which works great with simple PERL scripts under Linux, but always looking for a bargain! Thanks, ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] 82357B GPIB USB from China
On 09/11/2013 12:48 PM, Bob Stewart wrote: I didn't have any problem seeing it in windows with Agilent's IOLabSuite or whatever it's called, so this version seems to emulate the real thing. But, like they say: I don't do windows. =) Me either! The question seems to be does the Agilent software do a secret handshake with the 82357b or would it be as transparent under Linux as the Prologix unit? It may be a non-starter - has anyone tried one on Linux just to see if the USB part is recognized as a COM port (such as /dev/ttyUSB0)? From: Volker Esper ail...@t-online.de To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 82357B GPIB USB from China I bought one about a year ago but couldn't get it running under Win XP. There were a dozen well-meant advices on the forums that told me to read the firmware and flash the beast with a better one. However, I couldn't keep my nerve, so I purchased a Prologix adapter - which worked instantly. Volker Am 10.09.2013 16:07, schrieb Bob Smither: My apologies if this is in the archives. I could not find any discussion about it. A seller on Ebay is offering a USB-GPIB interface equivalent to the Agilent 82357B: http://www.ebay.com/itm/82357B-GPIB-USB-Interface-Compatible-with-AGILENT-82357B-/261270515849?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3cd4efb089 or http://tinyurl.com/qbsjjmr Has anyone here tried this? In particular, can it be made to work under Linux? I have the Prologix unit which works great with simple PERL scripts under Linux, but always looking for a bargain! Thanks, ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- = Bob Smither, PhD Circuit Concepts, Inc. Unbeknownst to any of us, in March 2006, in the PATRIOT Act reauthorization, a provision was included that allows the Attorney General to appoint an interim U.S. attorney for an indefinite period of time. --Dianne Feinstein Maybe you should have read the damn bill you voted for, Senator! smit...@c-c-i.comhttp://www.C-C-I.Com281-331-2744 = attachment: smither.vcf___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
Hi Ideally you would like the position error to be under 10 for the device to work at it's best. That's probably going to equate to a couple of inches of error in X, Y, and Z. Since GPS has cyclical errors, you need an average over a few days to get to that level. Bob On Sep 11, 2013, at 1:49 PM, quartz55 quart...@hughes.net wrote: The lat lon did change when I did the survey. On google, the lat lon is real close, a foot or so for the before position and after also. It certainly doesn't march around the neighborhood looking, the last survey must have only taken a few minutes. As far as antenna position, I guess maybe I can put it over on the hughes dish, but it's closer to the trees there. How far away from those beams do I need to get, so they're not in the el mask? Maybe I could put it on one of the roof vents but the coax will then drag across the shingles. I'll have to think about this. On the deck is good, but the wifey wouldn't go for that and it would be lots lower. Maybe if I paint it flat black she won't see it. You can see where google reports it here and the arrow is more where it is, so maybe it's 4-5' off. http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/roof_zps5eccff6a.jpg Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] TBolt temperature sensor
Didier Juges shalimr9 at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 12:24:51 EDT 2013 With all that discussion about the old temperature sensor in the TBolt no longer being available,... Actually I've bought all mine on Ebay and they are still available from the same seller plus others have some of the old revisions as well. It looks like the seller I used has over 500 units left. These are Rev C2 chips. The 3rd line of characters on the chip end with C2. The Rev D will work as well but do not use the Rev E chips because that's where the problem started to appear. Check: http://www.ebay.com/itm/140376728803 Item # 120552309518 appear to be Rev C2 chips as well. -Arthur ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA
I ordered a couple of the temp chips, but it's going to be low on the list of priorities. Tomorrow I'll add another 30' of cable and mount the antenna on the kitchen vent which is right on the south end of the house above the deck, lower but southeast from the beams by 25' or so. I think that's about as good as I can do unless I put up a tower to get above everything and that's not going to happen. I broke a chip inductor in the TS-2000 trying to install the XRef today, so I have to wait a few days until I get some new parts in. I can do a 24 hour precision survey in the meantime. I had to get the headband magnifier out to work on this thing, the board is only 1.25 x 0 .4. The chip inductor I broke is only about a 2mm cube. I got it off the 2000 board OK, I broke the track off the chip trying to solder a wire on one end. Next time I'm going to solder it and then glue it. http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg287/DogTi/time/XRef_zps74f23696.jpg I've got about 2 acres of grass to cut and need to put the sickle bar on the JD and go out and kill a few stink bugs in this heat. Dave N3DT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
