Re: [time-nuts] Pulsars make a GPS for the cosmos
Hi all, With all the recent talk of clocks etc in spacecraft I though you guys might like this... http://www.csiro.au/en/Portals/Media/Pulsars-make-a-GPS-for-the-cosmos.aspx regards Tim === .. and some more information from ESA: http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Operations/Highlights/Brightest_beacons 73, David GM8ARV -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] NIST off-line
NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
Yes but wwvb is on a AA battery it will run out. :-) On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Minnis tom_min...@att.net wrote: WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
It could well if the electrical utility bills are not paid for a few months! On 2013-10-01 12:09, paul swed wrote: Yes but wwvb is on a AA battery it will run out. :-) On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Minnis tom_min...@att.net wrote: WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
On 10/1/13 11:49 AM, Brian Inglis wrote: It could well if the electrical utility bills are not paid for a few months! On 2013-10-01 12:09, paul swed wrote: Yes but wwvb is on a AA battery it will run out. :-) On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Minnis tom_min...@att.net wrote: WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. the NIST online time services web page is still up. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
Hi: The reason for the lack of voting in Washington in relation to any bill that requires a tax raise is because 219 House and 39 Senate members have signed a pledge that says they will not vote for any tax increases, i.e. they have sold their vote for support in upcoming elections. But since they didn't get any direct payment into their pocket it's OK to sell their vote in advance. You might want to check to see if any of your Congressmen have signed the pledge. http://s3.amazonaws.com/atrfiles/files/files/073013-113thCongress.pdf Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html Jim Lux wrote: On 10/1/13 11:49 AM, Brian Inglis wrote: It could well if the electrical utility bills are not paid for a few months! On 2013-10-01 12:09, paul swed wrote: Yes but wwvb is on a AA battery it will run out. :-) On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Minnis tom_min...@att.net wrote: WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. the NIST online time services web page is still up. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
What did you expect? It's the Washington Monument strategy... again. Just like the 'sequester'. When you take a lollypop away from a kid, it kicks and screams and tries to make as much fuss as possible. Sometimes, just letting the kicking and screaming go on is the best way to teach a badly spoilt child things are not really as bad as it imagines. YMMWV, -John === NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
I know it's hard to resist, but... keep all time-nuts postings, even this thread, strictly related to precise time frequency, please. /tvb http://www.leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
On Topic I hope Tom :-)) ..I have just used the NIST time server to correct a PC clock here in the UK so it cannot all be down ?? Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line I know it's hard to resist, but... keep all time-nuts postings, even this thread, strictly related to precise time frequency, please. /tvb http://www.leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
http://www.ablogtowatch.com/bathys-hawaii-cesium-133-atomic-wrist-watch-accurate-second-1000-years/ But will TVB buy one? :-) Joe Gray W5JG ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 111, Issue 2
What a load of crap; shut down the NIST web-based system that is self-running and costs zero dollars as a punitive measure to kill us for someone else's boondoggle. Robert L. (Bob) Burchett Certified Communications Engineer Enterprise Electronics Contractors License 522372 22826 Mariposa Ave. Torrance CA 90502 310.534.4456 bob.burch...@eeontheweb.com -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of time-nuts-requ...@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 2:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 111, Issue 2 Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to time-nuts@febo.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to time-nuts-requ...@febo.com You can reach the person managing the list at time-nuts-ow...@febo.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of time-nuts digest... Today's Topics: 1. NIST off-line (David McGaw) 2. Re: NIST off-line (Tom Minnis) 3. Re: NIST off-line (paul swed) 4. Re: NIST off-line (Brian Inglis) 5. Re: NIST off-line (Jim Lux) 6. Re: NIST off-line (Brooke Clarke) 7. Re: NIST off-line (J. Forster) 8. Re: NIST off-line (Tom Van Baak) 9. Re: NIST off-line (Alan Melia) -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 13:13:16 -0400 From: David McGaw n1...@alum.dartmouth.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] NIST off-line Message-ID: 524b02ac.2020...@alum.dartmouth.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 10:45:08 -0700 From: Tom Minnis tom_min...@att.net To: David McGaw n1...@alum.dartmouth.org, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line Message-ID: 524b0a24.5060...@att.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 14:09:30 -0400 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: tom_min...@att.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line Message-ID: CAD2JfAiCJXV=7yr7s-ZgvREa2FvTAu_X8rnC_ov7Akp6QUZi=g...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes but wwvb is on a AA battery it will run out. :-) On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Minnis tom_min...@att.net wrote: WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listi nfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listin fo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:49:55 -0600 From: Brian Inglis brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line Message-ID: 524b1953.1060...@systematicsw.ab.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed It could well if the electrical utility bills are not paid for a few months! On 2013-10-01 12:09, paul swed wrote: Yes but wwvb is on a AA battery it will run out. :-) On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Minnis tom_min...@att.net wrote: WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/list info/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 111, Issue 2
I would really like someone to justify the shutting off of an automated system. And, why not WWV and WWVB also? If there had not been a bill for the DoD, would GPS have been shut off also? -John == What a load of crap; shut down the NIST web-based system that is self-running and costs zero dollars as a punitive measure to kill us for someone else's boondoggle. Robert L. (Bob) Burchett Certified Communications Engineer Enterprise Electronics Contractors License 522372 22826 Mariposa Ave. Torrance CA 90502 310.534.4456 bob.burch...@eeontheweb.com -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of time-nuts-requ...@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 2:04 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 111, Issue 2 Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to time-nuts@febo.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to time-nuts-requ...@febo.com You can reach the person managing the list at time-nuts-ow...@febo.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of time-nuts digest... Today's Topics: 1. NIST off-line (David McGaw) 2. Re: NIST off-line (Tom Minnis) 3. Re: NIST off-line (paul swed) 4. Re: NIST off-line (Brian Inglis) 5. Re: NIST off-line (Jim Lux) 6. Re: NIST off-line (Brooke Clarke) 7. Re: NIST off-line (J. Forster) 8. Re: NIST off-line (Tom Van Baak) 9. Re: NIST off-line (Alan Melia) -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 13:13:16 -0400 From: David McGaw n1...@alum.dartmouth.org To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] NIST off-line Message-ID: 524b02ac.2020...@alum.dartmouth.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 10:45:08 -0700 From: Tom Minnis tom_min...@att.net To: David McGaw n1...@alum.dartmouth.org, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line Message-ID: 524b0a24.5060...@att.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 14:09:30 -0400 From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: tom_min...@att.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line Message-ID: CAD2JfAiCJXV=7yr7s-ZgvREa2FvTAu_X8rnC_ov7Akp6QUZi=g...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes but wwvb is on a AA battery it will run out. :-) On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Minnis tom_min...@att.net wrote: WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listi nfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listin fo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2013 12:49:55 -0600 From: Brian Inglis brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line Message-ID: 524b1953.1060...@systematicsw.ab.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed It could well if the electrical utility bills are not paid for a few months! On 2013-10-01 12:09, paul swed wrote: Yes but wwvb is on a AA battery it will run out. :-) On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Minnis tom_min...@att.net wrote: WWV is still ticking Tom On 10/1/2013 10:13 AM, David McGaw wrote: NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
No but I bet he could build several with what he has laying around. Sent from mobile On Oct 1, 2013, at 12:23 PM, Joseph Gray jg...@zianet.com wrote: http://www.ablogtowatch.com/bathys-hawaii-cesium-133-atomic-wrist-watch-accurate-second-1000-years/ But will TVB buy one? :-) Joe Gray W5JG ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
That's the first time I have seen a practical explanation and working example of a CASC in operation. Can I say Awesome? --marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Gray Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013 3:23 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch http://www.ablogtowatch.com/bathys-hawaii-cesium-133-atomic-wrist-watch-accurate-second-1000-years/ But will TVB buy one? :-) Joe Gray W5JG ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] a real atomic wristwatch
Do not forget about the atomic pocket watch: http://www.watchpro.com/15431-hoptroff-to-unveil-atomic-pocket-watch-at-salon-qp/ Ronald ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
I can see it now: TSA Inspector: Sir, what is that watch ? Poor Soul: Oh, that's the new Cesium Watch. TSA Guy: Holy *^*, shut down the airport, call SWAT, HI HI 73, Dick, W1KSZ On 10/1/2013 10:23 AM, Joseph Gray wrote: http://www.ablogtowatch.com/bathys-hawaii-cesium-133-atomic-wrist-watch-accurate-second-1000-years/ But will TVB buy one? :-) Joe Gray W5JG ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
Guys, there is only one problem: there is just no way they can claim only 1 second error in a 1000 years unless they also have a GPS receiver for calibration in there, which kind of mutes the point as that has been done using wwvb etc. Let's do the math: 1/ (1000 * 365 * 24 *3600) = 3.171E-011 average error required over 1000 years. The CSAC has a thermal spec of +/-0.5ppb for -20C to +70C, meaning 5.6E-012 per Degree C sensitivity. So the temperature would have to stay stable within a couple degrees C, hardly possible in a wrist watch. Also, initial CSAC aging is 0.3ppb per month, about 100x worse than they claimed 1000 year per second accuracy. It gets better over time, but still around a ppb per year or so of aging is expected, far off from the 0.032ppb claim. They did a great job integrating that together, and its novel, but the marketing department is off by many orders in magnitude in their accuracy claims. I know CSAC applications that would be very happy to get around 0.1 second error per year consistently without external re-calibration in a stable environment. bye, Said In a message dated 10/1/2013 15:32:27 Pacific Daylight Time, ma...@non-stop.com.au writes: That's the first time I have seen a practical explanation and working example of a CASC in operation. Can I say Awesome? --marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
The problem is that the shutdown deprives some poor worker of his paycheck. The fat cats in DC still get their checks. What if they didn't get paid either. How long do you think this p%^^** contest would last. Great idea, except the very folks that should lose their paycheck must vote on it. Not much chance on that. 73, Dick, W1KSZ On 10/1/2013 1:19 PM, J. Forster wrote: What did you expect? It's the Washington Monument strategy... again. Just like the 'sequester'. When you take a lollypop away from a kid, it kicks and screams and tries to make as much fuss as possible. Sometimes, just letting the kicking and screaming go on is the best way to teach a badly spoilt child things are not really as bad as it imagines. YMMWV, -John === NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
Hi …. also don't forget that it's got a magnetic field susceptibility. Rotate it in the earth's magnetic field and you get something very similar to a 2 G tip on a crystal oscillator. That alone is enough to nuke the average error budget for 1,000 years. Of course there's also that pesky and oh so obvious 0.2 wander in the second hand. Can't see at all how a *real* Time Nut could put up with that. :) It is indeed a marvelous device. Packing all that into a tiny package wasn't easy at all. Bob On Oct 1, 2013, at 6:59 PM, saidj...@aol.com wrote: Guys, there is only one problem: there is just no way they can claim only 1 second error in a 1000 years unless they also have a GPS receiver for calibration in there, which kind of mutes the point as that has been done using wwvb etc. Let's do the math: 1/ (1000 * 365 * 24 *3600) = 3.171E-011 average error required over 1000 years. The CSAC has a thermal spec of +/-0.5ppb for -20C to +70C, meaning 5.6E-012 per Degree C sensitivity. So the temperature would have to stay stable within a couple degrees C, hardly possible in a wrist watch. Also, initial CSAC aging is 0.3ppb per month, about 100x worse than they claimed 1000 year per second accuracy. It gets better over time, but still around a ppb per year or so of aging is expected, far off from the 0.032ppb claim. They did a great job integrating that together, and its novel, but the marketing department is off by many orders in magnitude in their accuracy claims. I know CSAC applications that would be very happy to get around 0.1 second error per year consistently without external re-calibration in a stable environment. bye, Said In a message dated 10/1/2013 15:32:27 Pacific Daylight Time, ma...@non-stop.com.au writes: That's the first time I have seen a practical explanation and working example of a CASC in operation. Can I say Awesome? --marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
It looks like the winding stem is the GPS antenna? If that is the case, then it could get calibrated when ever it can see some satellites and sit still for awhile. The next thing it needs is solar cells to recharge the battery. The WWVB watches are doing that now. Tom On 10/1/2013 4:28 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi …. also don't forget that it's got a magnetic field susceptibility. Rotate it in the earth's magnetic field and you get something very similar to a 2 G tip on a crystal oscillator. That alone is enough to nuke the average error budget for 1,000 years. Of course there's also that pesky and oh so obvious 0.2 wander in the second hand. Can't see at all how a *real* Time Nut could put up with that. :) It is indeed a marvelous device. Packing all that into a tiny package wasn't easy at all. Bob On Oct 1, 2013, at 6:59 PM, saidj...@aol.com wrote: Guys, there is only one problem: there is just no way they can claim only 1 second error in a 1000 years unless they also have a GPS receiver for calibration in there, which kind of mutes the point as that has been done using wwvb etc. Let's do the math: 1/ (1000 * 365 * 24 *3600) = 3.171E-011 average error required over 1000 years. The CSAC has a thermal spec of +/-0.5ppb for -20C to +70C, meaning 5.6E-012 per Degree C sensitivity. So the temperature would have to stay stable within a couple degrees C, hardly possible in a wrist watch. Also, initial CSAC aging is 0.3ppb per month, about 100x worse than they claimed 1000 year per second accuracy. It gets better over time, but still around a ppb per year or so of aging is expected, far off from the 0.032ppb claim. They did a great job integrating that together, and its novel, but the marketing department is off by many orders in magnitude in their accuracy claims. I know CSAC applications that would be very happy to get around 0.1 second error per year consistently without external re-calibration in a stable environment. bye, Said In a message dated 10/1/2013 15:32:27 Pacific Daylight Time, ma...@non-stop.com.au writes: That's the first time I have seen a practical explanation and working example of a CASC in operation. Can I say Awesome? --marki ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
ma...@non-stop.com.au said: That's the first time I have seen a practical explanation and working example of a CASC in operation. Practical? What's the battery life? How accurately can you read a watch dial? How good are modern watches? How do crystals compare with mechanical? Where is the crossover point between watch accuracy and human read-it accuracy? Is that before or after the CASC watch runs out of battery? I suppose you could put it on the charger every night, next to your cell phone, but then I could make a crystal watch that connects to a charger stand that also sets the time. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
Hey Hal, Symetricom need sales and investment in this product, to get back the RD costs. I believe this is the first Gen? If they get the volume the price has to drop. However, It is a bit sucky marketing can get away with that. I wonder if they have good and bad CSAC a la Crystal oscillators or I haven't grasped the importance of this yet :) --marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013 9:54 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch ma...@non-stop.com.au said: That's the first time I have seen a practical explanation and working example of a CASC in operation. Practical? What's the battery life? How accurately can you read a watch dial? How good are modern watches? How do crystals compare with mechanical? Where is the crossover point between watch accuracy and human read-it accuracy? Is that before or after the CASC watch runs out of battery? I suppose you could put it on the charger every night, next to your cell phone, but then I could make a crystal watch that connects to a charger stand that also sets the time. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] a real atomic wristwatch
That it Ronald, the watchmakers art hasn't been lost, it is being bought up to date. Although the work that went into the circa 1880 Chronometers is nothing short of amazing given the tools and technology of the time. So we see history repeat! Cheers :) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Held Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013 8:30 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] a real atomic wristwatch Do not forget about the atomic pocket watch: http://www.watchpro.com/15431-hoptroff-to-unveil-atomic-pocket-watch-at-salon-qp/ Ronald ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
On 10/1/2013 4:03 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: The reason for the lack of voting in Washington in relation to any bill that requires a tax raise is because 219 House and 39 Senate members have signed a pledge that says they will not vote for any tax increases, In what way is trying to create political brouhaha compatible with a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related topics? The problems with all the animosity in US politics is _exactly_ because of people like you. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
HI There was a *lot* of government money that went into developing that product. I think it's safe to say that without the government backing it would not exist. There's a *lot* of money to be made before a true next generation product gets designed. Bob On Oct 1, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Mark C. Stephens ma...@non-stop.com.au wrote: Hey Hal, Symetricom need sales and investment in this product, to get back the RD costs. I believe this is the first Gen? If they get the volume the price has to drop. However, It is a bit sucky marketing can get away with that. I wonder if they have good and bad CSAC a la Crystal oscillators or I haven't grasped the importance of this yet :) --marki -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013 9:54 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch ma...@non-stop.com.au said: That's the first time I have seen a practical explanation and working example of a CASC in operation. Practical? What's the battery life? How accurately can you read a watch dial? How good are modern watches? How do crystals compare with mechanical? Where is the crossover point between watch accuracy and human read-it accuracy? Is that before or after the CASC watch runs out of battery? I suppose you could put it on the charger every night, next to your cell phone, but then I could make a crystal watch that connects to a charger stand that also sets the time. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] NIST off-line
This solution (not paying congress) gets suggested all the time. There are two problems with the idea. (1) No one who was not rich would consider running for congress. Could you afford to quit your job and move to DC for a 2 year job with the chance of not getting a paycheck? Only people who could afford to loose $100K or more would take the job. And YES there are non-rich congressmen, just normal people who ran in their district. (2) The US constitution specifically forbids adjustments to pay during the session. The effect of changing pay (up or down) has to be delayed to the next congress. Yes, the US Constitution requires that pay not be changed. So your idea would require an amendment. On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Richard Solomon w1...@earthlink.net wrote: The problem is that the shutdown deprives some poor worker of his paycheck. The fat cats in DC still get their checks. What if they didn't get paid either. How long do you think this p%^^** contest would last. Great idea, except the very folks that should lose their paycheck must vote on it. Not much chance on that. 73, Dick, W1KSZ On 10/1/2013 1:19 PM, J. Forster wrote: What did you expect? It's the Washington Monument strategy... again. Just like the 'sequester'. When you take a lollypop away from a kid, it kicks and screams and tries to make as much fuss as possible. Sometimes, just letting the kicking and screaming go on is the best way to teach a badly spoilt child things are not really as bad as it imagines. YMMWV, -John === NIST is off-line due to the shutdown. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688 __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
On 10/1/13 4:01 PM, Richard Solomon wrote: I can see it now: TSA Inspector: Sir, what is that watch ? Poor Soul: Oh, that's the new Cesium Watch. TSA Guy: Holy *^*, shut down the airport, call SWAT, HI HI 73, Dick, W1KSZ Interestingly, over the past couple weeks, I've had opportunity to experience TSA inspection a lot of times carrying electronic equipment that, I think, truly looks like a bomb on the X-ray. A big Pelican case filled with circuit boards, lots of wires, connected to large rectangular blobs (lead acid batteries). Only once has any question been asked, it was more out of curiosity than anything else (there was nobody else at the checkpoint, I had hours before my flight, etc.) Granted I don't *look* like a terrorist (my beard looks much the same as Osama's did, in his younger days, but that's about it). I think there are easier ways to get the TSA inspectors excited. Bottles full of liquids are a good way (ask my daughter, who forgot about the water bottle going through JFK). I doubt the average TSA folks have much knowledge of chemistry that is relevant to the inspection process. I suspect you could carry a depleted uranium counterweight through, and tell them it was uranium, and they wouldn't get excited. Carry odd shaped things attached to your body, and that will get them excited, because the blob detector on the mm-wave radar will trigger. Long springs will get them excited (because they look like some sort of springy baton or club, I think), so save the 6 meter helical rubber duck antenna for your checked bags. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB 800 uv east coast
Well finally spending some time back on the wwvb receiver and noted some clipping. Well Washington may be shut down but wwvb is as strong as I have seen it at 800 uv. Normally the max is 600-650 that I have seen. AGC is not doing an effective job at this level. Regards Paul ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum
Update. I received the FTS 4060 unit and guess what - it does not work. So a few questions to the experts on this list- 1) How can I verify that the CBT is in fact bad? Is there any easy way to confirm the high voltage supplies are working short of pulling the CBT assembly out and making direct HV measurements? How about the other tube functions? There is no beam activity on meter 3 and the ion pump voltage is 0. 2) If it is a bad tube (likely), is there any way it can be rebuilt? Does anyone do such a thing? 3) Is there any source for used tubes? 4) If this is a dead end, is there any value in the rest of the unit? This one has the display clock and the 5 MHz and 100 kHz options. Or should I just bury it in the back yard and lick my wounds? Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: Tom Miller tmil...@skylinenet.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:10 PM Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum While we are on Cs standards, is there technical information (service manual) available for the Datum FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard and its options? Thank you, Tom ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum
I am currently attempting to put together a working clock out of a 4060 and two 4065's in various states of disrepair and have the the same question you posted since most likely one or two of mine have depleted tubes. Does anyone have PDF's of the service manuals on either of these units? I know Brooke has generously shared some excellent information on his site at http://www.prc68.com/I/FTS4060.shtml I look forward to hearing how your repairs go. Thomas Knox From: tmil...@skylinenet.net To: tmil...@skylinenet.net; time-nuts@febo.com Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2013 21:53:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum Update. I received the FTS 4060 unit and guess what - it does not work. So a few questions to the experts on this list- 1) How can I verify that the CBT is in fact bad? Is there any easy way to confirm the high voltage supplies are working short of pulling the CBT assembly out and making direct HV measurements? How about the other tube functions? There is no beam activity on meter 3 and the ion pump voltage is 0. 2) If it is a bad tube (likely), is there any way it can be rebuilt? Does anyone do such a thing? 3) Is there any source for used tubes? 4) If this is a dead end, is there any value in the rest of the unit? This one has the display clock and the 5 MHz and 100 kHz options. Or should I just bury it in the back yard and lick my wounds? Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: Tom Miller tmil...@skylinenet.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:10 PM Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum While we are on Cs standards, is there technical information (service manual) available for the Datum FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard and its options? Thank you, Tom ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum
Tom, I don't have any FTS CS units but I would be suspicious that the 'ion pump voltage' of '0' really means that the ion pump current is 0. And, if so, I would be very suspicious of a dead HV supply or a shorted tube. If it's anything like the HP units, you should be able to disconnect the CS tube from the HV supply and measure the HV supply directly from the connector on the chassis and, from the wire from the tube, measure the resistance from the HV wire on the tube to ground. On the HP units, HV should be about +3500 VDC and the resistance should be infinite. If the HV is absent, it's a HV supply problem and if the resistance shows a short, you might be able to 'open' it by using the HV supply to charge a HV capacitor then connect that to the tube (be careful, HV really can hurt you) and see if it might 'blow' open the short (I was able to do that to 'resurrect' an HP tube). Good luck. Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Miller Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 8:53 PM To: Tom Miller; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum Update. I received the FTS 4060 unit and guess what - it does not work. So a few questions to the experts on this list- 1) How can I verify that the CBT is in fact bad? Is there any easy way to confirm the high voltage supplies are working short of pulling the CBT assembly out and making direct HV measurements? How about the other tube functions? There is no beam activity on meter 3 and the ion pump voltage is 0. 2) If it is a bad tube (likely), is there any way it can be rebuilt? Does anyone do such a thing? 3) Is there any source for used tubes? 4) If this is a dead end, is there any value in the rest of the unit? This one has the display clock and the 5 MHz and 100 kHz options. Or should I just bury it in the back yard and lick my wounds? Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: Tom Miller tmil...@skylinenet.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:10 PM Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum While we are on Cs standards, is there technical information (service manual) available for the Datum FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard and its options? Thank you, Tom ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch
I really should stop doing things like this: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/atomic-bill/ sorry Tom ;) -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Gray Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2013 3:23 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] A readl atomic wristwatch http://www.ablogtowatch.com/bathys-hawaii-cesium-133-atomic-wrist-watch-accurate-second-1000-years/ But will TVB buy one? :-) Joe Gray W5JG ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
