John wrote:
It seems to me that it's just a case of expecting too much from a counter.
Possibly, but a well-tuned 5370B can get to the low e-12's at 1-10
seconds. It has better one-shot resolution than the Pendulum, but
not by a factor of 10. So, I'd have thought the Pendulum would at
Here's another reference on driving 10-ish MHz square wave outputs via
digital chips.
A few years ago I hacked my HP Z3816 to covert its 4 - 19.6608 MHz
square wave outputs to be 4 more 10 MHz outputs. In the process I
reverse engineered some of what was there. I found each of these outputs
Hi Bob et al,
I don't understand the direction this question about the supercap has taken.
It's connected to pin 1 of the GPS receiver. It looks to be a UT+, so that's
the battery backup power. According to my UT+ manual the current draw on this
pin is between 5uA (at 2.5V) and 100uA (at
Hi Arthur,
Now that you mention it, yes, I do remember your post. Thanks for the reminder!
Bob
From: Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@gmail.com
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 9:20 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A,
Z3812A
We had something like that in school when I was a kid. (many years ago)
I remember occasional click-click-click... as it got reset.
mp...@clanbaker.org said:
I am wondering what the easiest approach to this might be?I suppose I
could take the 1-sec pulses from a GPSDO (Trimble
csteinm...@yandex.com said:
Yes, using TI mode is essential for getting down to the counter's limits.
What's going on there? It's just a divide, right? Is the firmware not smart
enough to do get enough precision?
Do all counters have that problem?
--
These are my opinions. I hate spam.
Hello All...
My HP Z3816A GPS box is in need of some TLC.
Is there anyone on the list who works on these units?
TIA
73
Don
W4WJ
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
It seems to me that it's just a case of expecting too much from a counter.
Possibly, but a well-tuned 5370B can get to the low e-12's at 1-10
seconds.
You can get down there with TI averaging, but the data you get is not ideal
since the averaging process smooths out the very instabilities
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Larry McDavid lmcda...@lmceng.com wrote:
I gave a presentation on the Dent Dipleidoscope at the Harvard conference
of the North American Sundial Society in 2013. If anyone is interested, I
can provide a pdf of that presentation. The presentation includes
In message 54544287.3000...@pacific.net, Brooke Clarke writes:
Hi Bob:
I suspect that inside a screen room like that one, where I'm
guessing the walls are iron/steel, there's not much of the
Earth's mag field left to null.
That would be very counter productive, because you would
The physics department at the little Liberal Arts college I went to in
Iowa, Grinnell college, used to sell time to the Rock Island Railroad.
We had two excellent pendulum clocks that back when this was in action,
were synchronized to zenith crossings of particular stars. This was a
manual
Hi Bob,
The traditional Hg ion clock with it's 40,5 GHz frequency is doable, but
it would be interesting if it could be commercialized at a (time-nuts)
friendly price.
The modern optical clock got much easier to work with when the frequency
comb was invented. The frequency comb and stable
Hi Arthur,
Found your original picture/post. TNX!
http://s906.photobucket.com/user/rjb1998/media/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg.html
Would you share what you did for a 5 MHz buffer?
Mike
On 10/31/2014 10:20 PM, Arthur Dent wrote:
Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net
“…I have both of my units
Hi
The “easy way” is probably to take a GPS module and get the time out of that.
There’s not a big need for a GPSDO in this case. The modules cost $20 and run
on very little power.
Mate the module up with your processor du-jour and let it figure out when the
top of the hour is. There are a
Hi
On Oct 31, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@gmail.com wrote:
Bob Stewart bob at evoria.net
“…I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to
connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby….”
Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org
“I suspect
Hi
Well Q = CV. If delta V = 1 and C = 0.022 then Q = 0.022. That’s 22 ma for 1
second or 22 ua for 1,000 seconds. At 5 ua you would get to about an hour. If
the delta V is 2X that, the times would all double. If the current is 10X lower
than the spec (it might be …) then you could get out to
Hi
Quick question - What about the other pins? Do they hook up in the same manner?
If so, what happens to the odd pin?
Bob
On Oct 31, 2014, at 10:41 PM, Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net wrote:
Task 1 complete.
Pin-1 - Pin-15
Pin-2 - Pin- 14
Pin-3 - Pin- 13
...
...
Pin-14 -
Time-Nutters--
This particular 1903 Railroad self-setting/winding
pendulum regulated clock needed only an hourly
signal from a Western Union telegraph line to
provide momentary closure of a relay contact.
This supplied +3 VDC to rewind the spring and also
reset the sweep seconds hand on the
I have Arduino and Parallax BS2 programs that check the time from a Motorola
GPS card (UT) and then send out a pulse on an electronic relay once an hour.
The pulse starts at 59:57 past the hour and ends at 59:59. The solenoid
releases on each clock pretty close to the hour, and the clocks
I would be quite interested in reading your presentation also.
Thank you
Paul
WB8TSL
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 3:14 AM, Sanjeev Gupta gha...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Larry McDavid lmcda...@lmceng.com
wrote:
I gave a presentation on the Dent Dipleidoscope at the Harvard
I have the wall mounted version. I believe that the hour adjust solenoid
took 100 volts or so. I will check my manual on the clock. At a minute
before the top of the hour until a minute after the hour all traffic would
stop on the WU lines and at the top of the hour a 100 v dc pulse came over
I've been reading a lot about ADEV and following the threads on the list,
particularly Karen's in-flight thread. What I haven't come across is a simple
explanation of the basic setup required to go about collecting the data. John
Miles referenced this page http://www.ke5fx.com/tpll.htm, and
For those who missed it, Arthur's post is at
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-June/047825.html and the photo is
at
http://i906.photobucket.com/albums/ac262/rjb1998/RFTG-uREF1photo1_zps87c505ca.jpg
Anthony
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts
It certainly depends on your comfort with any particular technology.
Be it discrete ICs or microprocessors what you ask for is indeed trivial to
do.
The hardest part may be building the pulse driver and thats not really hard.
The telegraphs should have been a higher voltage to drive a 10-20 ma
Mike
I can't speak to the pendulum swing. I had seen clocks that did indeed have
some form of mechanical lockout like you mention.
So yes you are on target. Now we get to a bit of nitty gritty. When does
the pulse arrive I suspect at 59:59. The goal is that the clock rolls up to
0 and is released
Bill I responded to Mike there seems to be a number of threads running on
this.
So in fact you do have the telegraph coil in the clock. Makes sense to me.
Thats why the 100 V they needed to drive 10-20 ma through the coil over
distance and had to account for line loss.
The boook you mention.
Usually phase detectors (we prefer to call them Time Interval
Analysers) have data interfaces (RS232, GPIB, LAN). If you build your
own then the interface is up to you: usually an RS232 is the best
choice. The software to use: take a look at the Miles' TimeLab
www.ke5fx.com/timelab/readme.htm or
what you want to measure is a time-series of either frequency data or phase
data.
the simplest possible case for a beginner would be to have two clocks with
1-PPS (one pulse per second) outputs, and connect one clock to the
start-input and the other to the stop-input of a time-interval counter. If
Magnus,
But for a time-nut how can price even enter into the conversation? Plus it
only draws 10s of watts. A green super duper clock. Other comment I read is
that there is no part that will wear out. Granted I suspect over many years
something happens, but its not the typical CS depletion. I
Click is a short TV program produced by the BBC about tech related things.
Anyway, the issue I see today (1/11/2014)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04p21jv
had a bit about GPS failure, GPS jamming, and use of eLORAN as a backup.
*Hopefully* you can see it on the BBC iPlayer if interested,
Paul,
You mean, as all time-nuts already have redundant sites with at least 4
5071As with high-performance tubes, redundant cesium and rubidium
fointains, set of active hydrogen masers, with everything in tight
temperature, humidity and pressure control, UPS and diesel-engines,
Absolutely! but it's not just the price of the hardware. The clock has mercury
in it. Horrors! So the paperwork involved with the EPA, OSHA, and who knows
what other agency will cost more than the hardware. Best stick with a hydrogen
clock, just stick an icepick in it when you want to get rid of
On 11/1/14, 9:08 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
Paul,
You mean, as all time-nuts already have redundant sites with at least 4
5071As with high-performance tubes, redundant cesium and rubidium
fointains, set of active hydrogen masers, with everything in tight
temperature, humidity and pressure
The Western Union clocks used in broadcasting up through the middle 70's were
designed to be corrected through one-second current pulses over a standard 60
mA teletype loop. The clocks were wired in series like the old series
Christmas-tree bulbs.
Internally, the clocks employed two 1-1/2 V
I've confirmed from the model number that the GPS module on these is indeed
an Oncore UT+.
There's a Synergy engineering note available regarding Oncore battery
backup, and one place a copy can be found is here...
http://f6fgz.free.fr/Fichiers/GPS/Backup_Battery_Considerations.pdf
If so
Magnus I would say that yes I do have various backups and none as good as
any of this discussion. Agreeing with Jim much of this appears to me to be
semi-reasonable and in particular in a amateur lab environment. But I am
afraid thats just about how far I am going to get on the project. Its right
Jim,
On 11/01/2014 05:49 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
Having been to a few of the design reviews and such for the DSAC, and
before, when it was called the 1 liter atomic clock, etc.
I think one could build one *if* you have a fairly wide collection of
skills, and you weren't hung up on it being tiny and
Paul,
The lack of hydrogen masers here is disturbing. So is better cesiums
tanked up and fresh.
Will see what I can do with what I got.
Fixing up rubidiums and cesiums is currently how far this lab goes.
Cheers,
Magnus
On 11/01/2014 06:23 PM, paul swed wrote:
Magnus I would say that yes
The politics of this system are a bit dubious as are the claims on accuracy
and freedon from jamming. But it does give us another off-air frequency
standard.
Alan
G3NYK
- Original Message -
From: Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk
To: Discussion
Anthony,
On 11/01/2014 02:29 PM, Anthony Roby wrote:
I've been reading a lot about ADEV and following the threads on the list,
particularly Karen's in-flight thread.
What I haven't come across is a simple explanation of the basic setup required
to go about collecting the data.
John Miles
On 11/1/14, 11:05 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
Jim,
However, if you were happy with lab grade construction, and you have
the Kurt Lesker and Duniway catalogs as bedside reading, I think you'd
have a chance.
Yes. I guess a bit of baking out the build is also to be recommended.
I guess most of
I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A counter. I thought it might
be handy when I'm at an AM broadcast transmitter and needed to make
rough frequency measurements. It turns out that at 1000 kHz it
reads about 4.5 Hz high. Looking inside I'm not sure if there's a
time base adjustment. I
Hi Bert,
The service manual for the 5300B is on the keysight.com site under manuals.
http://www.keysight.com/main/techSupport.jspx?searchT=5300Bid=5300B:epsg:propageMode=OVpid=5300B:epsg:procc=USlc=eng
Do you have a frequency reference (house standard) that you can use to
adjust the reference
Hi
4.5 Hz at 1 MHz is 4.5 ppm. That’s not out of the likely adjustment range on
the basic crystal reference on a 5308. It’s probably a simple tweak to get it
back into calibration.
Bob
On Nov 1, 2014, at 3:19 PM, Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net wrote:
I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A
The time basse oscillator is only a crystal around a logic gate; not
exciting at all. The adjustment is on the 5300A unit. There is a hole in
the rear panel of the case that allows adjustment. You are going to need a
calibrated standard of some kind to calibrate it against.
The manuals
Hi
The problem with setting up to measure any of this stuff is that it’s *very*
dependent on the gear you have. There’s no big surprises below. It’s all “spend
more money and have fewer things to figure out”.
First you need a way to measure frequency out of your mixer (there are LOTS of
ways
I'm experimenting with using a temperature sensor to estimate local
oscillator frequency changes. My goal is to have a decent holdover
clock for a NTP server with not so great GPS antenna placement.
I've been sampling temperature every minute, measured by a DS18B20.
I've been measuring
Book info amazon
http://www.amazon.com/American-Clocks-Volume-Special-Self-Winding/dp/0930163
443/ref=sr_1_sc_3?ie=UTF8qid=1414869823sr=8-3-spellkeywords=american+cloc
ks+tran+duyly
73,
Bill, WA2DVU
Bill I responded to Mike there seems to be a number of threads running on
this.
So in fact you
Hi
On Nov 1, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote:
On 11/1/14, 11:05 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
Jim,
However, if you were happy with lab grade construction, and you have
the Kurt Lesker and Duniway catalogs as bedside reading, I think you'd
have a chance.
Yes. I
Hi Mike:
The hourly synchronization 1 second wide pulse turns on a second prior to the
top of the hour and off at the top.
But . . . . it's not a low voltage pulse, but rather each clock is in a series loop where the external resistance is
more than an order of magnitude higher than the
Hi
This sort of thing is normally done with a precisely controlled temperature
chamber and multi day temperature ramp runs. Even then there is a bit of
“wonder what that was, let’s try it again”.
If you are looking at a crystal oscillator, what you have is a perturbation in
the frequency /
Hi Bob:
When we received new computers from HP and plugged them in the date/time was
correct.
I believe the DS32xx series of RTCs, like those in wrist watches run on almost
no power.
The trick is in getting a super cap with low leakage and low resistance.
The super caps designed to keep memory
You could try submitting your data to zunzun.com It will fit it to around
40,000 different curves and find the best ones.
Beware that with all curve fitting formulas, once your live data starts to
wander out of the range of your original curve fit data, things can go rather
badly...
Well, I'm happy to report that Arthur's modification does do the trick,
although I don't know why as I don't have any data for the interface as yet.
I daren't disturb the 15 pin connector right now as this Z3811A PCB is
still out of its case and connected to a breadboard with wires just
Thanks for this. I should have said that I have a Racal-Dana 1992 counter
(with GPIB) and I have an Isotemp OCXO134-10, so its sounds like I just need
the opamps, an RPD-1 and a GPIB-USB interface plus some software. I'll do a
bit more digging around and see if I can get the GPIB up and
Thanks - seems that I should be able to do this with my Racal-Dana 1992 counter.
Anthony
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus
Danielson
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 1:29 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
Subject:
Ok, I hadn't considered rate of change. This data is currently 3
day's worth and seems to repeat itself on both days at the same
temperature point. Attached is a time based graph to show that. The
ppm axis (on the right) is inverted to make it easier to see the
relationship between the
Hi Hal:
The click-click-click... is the self winding. A solenoid vibrates back and forth and a pawl and ratchet winds the main
spring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIxOVo_0xgofeature=youtu.be
Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
Hi Larry:
Yes, please.
Here's my Dent Dipleidoscope:
http://www.prc68.com/I/Dent.shtml
Mail_Attachment --
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
Sanjeev Gupta wrote:
On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:23
Tom Bob,
Thanks for the comments and quick reply. Tom,
when I originally did a google search I did not
see the site that you sent, but from your
guidance I did find the manual showing the
frequency adjustment and I'm letting the
5300B/5308A combination counter heat up. From a
cold
Hi Howard:
From what I know the USNO used a Photographic Zenity Tube that made use of a pool of Mercury and glass plate that was
exposed 4 times for a single star meridian crossing. The plate was then read using what amounts to a microscope and
large X-Y table and after doing some math the
Hi Bob:
AFAICR on the old 6-channel Motorola GPS boards there was an option for a backup battery. Without the backup battery if
there was any power interruption the memory would erase and you needed to do a cold start. Having the almanac and
ephemeris, even if from a year ago has the effect
Didn't the clocks in cars back in the day use the same sort of thing to wind
themselves? Though I remember a single click every x minutes, not the
vibration of a solenoid.
Bob
From: Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Hi Mike:
There's a heart shaped cam that forces the hour, minute and if the clock has one the second hand to 12:00 and holds them
there until the sync pulse goes away.
Note the second hand only was used on clocks in radio stations so they could join the network. For that 1 second was
close
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 23:40:04 -0400, you wrote:
John wrote:
It seems to me that it's just a case of expecting too much from a counter.
Possibly, but a well-tuned 5370B can get to the low e-12's at 1-10
seconds. It has better one-shot resolution than the Pendulum, but
not by a factor of 10.
I gave zunzun a try and the one with the lowest root mean squared error was:
f(x) = a( x**0.5) + b( x ) + c( sin(x) ) + d( cos(x) )
It got 0.202 RMSE, so I guess I'll stick with my original function as
it seems to be closer to what I expect will happen at colder/hotter
temps.
You have a
Hal wrote:
Yes, using TI mode is essential for getting down to the counter's limits.
What's going on there? It's just a divide, right? Is the firmware not smart
enough to do get enough precision?
Do all counters have that problem?
The raw TI data have all of the benefit of the
bro...@pacific.net said:
The click-click-click... is the self winding. A solenoid vibrates back and
forth and a pawl and ratchet winds the main spring.
I don't think that's what I was referring to. It was a long time ago so my
memory may be buggy.
The click-click-click... that I remember
Hi
I think if you look at the math, the 0.022 F cap isn’t going to take care of
the rated 20 uA current drain for very long.
Bob
On Nov 1, 2014, at 4:59 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote:
Hi Bob:
When we received new computers from HP and plugged them in the date/time was
ar...@antamy.com said:
I'll do a bit more digging around and see if I can get the GPIB up and
running in the next couple of weeks.
I've been happy with the ProLogic GPIB-USB gizmo.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/549
It took some fiddling to get going, but I like chasing that sort of
I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of what
is on the board, and you just had to connect the pins listed together, or
whether this was a new circuit that had to be inserted. Sounds like the latter?
Anthony
-Original Message-
From: time-nuts
Hi
On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:09 PM, Dan Drown dan-timen...@drown.org wrote:
Ok, I hadn't considered rate of change.
It’s one of the limits on this sort of thing in general. It’s even more of an
issue with a coupled mode like the one you show. Since there are an enormous
number of possible
Hi
It’s an added circuit you need to build up and add to the box. It fakes out the
slave detection logic.
Bob
On Nov 1, 2014, at 6:41 PM, Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com wrote:
I wasn't clear from the photo whether the circuit was a representation of
what is on the board, and you just had
dan-timen...@drown.org said:
I'm experimenting with using a temperature sensor to estimate local
oscillator frequency changes. My goal is to have a decent holdover clock
for a NTP server with not so great GPS antenna placement.
This is for ntpd rather than chrony, but it's a good read:
Hi Anthony,
It's a new circuit that has to be inserted, which is what I've done, but
I'm not sure whether or not it's strictly necessary for the unit to function
or whether it's just there to get the lights sequencing properly and
perhaps all that's needed for basic functionality are just
Hi Hal:
I think there were a number of slave clock systems and some of them could do DST/ST changes and/or catch up from a power
failure.
That very well might have been what you heard.
To me the winding sounds like a muffled air compressor.
The setting sounds like Thunk.
Mail_Attachment --
If this is just for holdover then I don't think you even want a general
solution. Have the controller always keep the last few days of data for
temperature vs. EFC value. Then if GPS fails use the most recent data for
the current temperature. This makes for a self adapting system accounting
for
Mmmm yes you can see the equation evaluation starting to rise in your
Warmer plot, as Mark says, which will make a nonsense of the formula if
your summer temps get above 28.
Why not a table and then interpolate between the table data points?. You
might have more points where the changes are
Hi
If you:
1) Do not have two units (Ref 0 and Ref 1)
— and —
2) Do not “fake out” the slave detect (= use the mod)
Then the unit you have will not:
1) Enable the pps out
2) Enable the 15 MHz out
It will try to disciple the OCXO, but you won’t be able to see any result of
that.
Bob
On
The closest it will adjust is -2.5 Hz of 10.
MHz. This unit differs from the one in the
manual in that it has a Microsonics OCXO with the
adjustment on the side of the module. The oven
does not feel warm but is written on the side is:
Adjust at 25 Deg C, which is about 77 degrees
F.
I think you have a good point - any model is going to have a larger
error than the data itself. I'll be looking into this.
Quoting Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com:
If this is just for holdover then I don't think you even want a general
solution. Have the controller always keep
Keep in mind that I made the modifications to my RFTG-u REF 1 almost
4 years ago and the details of why I did what I did are kind of foggy
today. It was a pure hack but I *believe* that the circuitry as well
as the jumpers were required, or at least I thought so. The big problem
with getting
Hi
If the OCXO was not heating, it would be off by about 20 to 60 Hz. It’s close
enough that it is getting power and heating up. If it does move when you fiddle
the trimmer, that part is likely still connected.
It sounds like the beast has simply aged further than it’s trim range.
Bob
On
Hi Bob,
I understand the consequences of not modifying the unit but, having done so
and having a REF-1 unit running stand alone, I was just commenting that I
wasn't sure whether or not it was necessary to implement all of Arthur's
modification in order to enable the basic functionality, or
Hi
I’ve watched the two boxes fire up. They spend a bit of time blinking lights on
this one and then on that one. From watching the “dance”, I think that the
transistor delay circuit (or something like it) is indeed needed. There are
multiple ways the delay and sequencing could be implemented.
Hi Arthur,
Thanks for the extra information, it sounds like you may well have answered
my question:-)
As I commented to Bob, I was hoping I might be able to find an option that
didn't require any internal access, I knew that was a long shot anyway but
I quite liked the idea of a plug and
That will work as a starting-point.
When you look at your ADEV plot, you will notice a 1/tau curve for the
lower taus, that is due to your counters limitations. If you need to go
below that, you need a better counter, but for the moment you should
start believe the plot as it flattens out,
Yes, that is one of the original 1843 dipleidoscope designs. All the
original black finish seems to have been polished away, however.
This original design used a lot of expensive brass. Later models used a
cast brass {scroll base and a dipleidoscope body machined from a round
brass bar; this
That's one down side of course of only buying the REF-1 units, not having
any idea of the normal behaviour.
It's certainly sounding like any hopes of a purely passive solution is one
for the wishful thinking department. I'd still like to minimise any
internal modifications, and mounting
Are yu sure that it's an OXCO? According to the manual that I have, the
only option for the 5300B counter unit was option 001, which added a TXCO.
The manual doesn't give any data on the Option 001 oscillator, so can't
confirm that your oscillator is TXCO or OXCO. If it's a TXCO, it won't get
Bob,
Alas, I suspect you've hit the nail on the head. I'll probably wind
up replacing the oscillator with something similar that I can make
work. While I've got some pretty good counters in the racks in my
workshop, the 5300B is a handy little counter to schlep around for
low frequency
Bert, the normal oscillator is just a crystal. Option 001 is a TCXO, no
oven. If you do not have opt 001, I would look for the second adjustment
internally. Two are shown on the schematic.
- Original Message -
From: Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday,
I've had a few of these over the years and option 001 is indeed a TCXO.
Best bet for calibrating the TCXO is removing it from 5300B and tweak the osc
on the bench
Also remember these were designed as service grade counters for land mobile
service not lab grade instruments. There are battery
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