[time-nuts] Larus STS54500

[Bill]

I got a CXR LARUS STS54500 SYNCHRONIZING TIMING SYSTEM at auction with the 
following cards:

1. 54591GPS CLOCK ST3E/LN HLD
2. 54571O/P T1
3. 54550IMU
4. 54580OUTPUT NTS
5. 54560ALARM

The GPS CLOCK board has a Tu60-D120-041 receiver card and a TEMEX 0444/0020   
DOC2099 oscillator.
I can find no operational info on the net. Would anyone have information or how 
to get info.

Bill Reed

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Re: [time-nuts] Looking to find an antenna for a TrueTime XL-DC

[ziggy9+time-nuts]

It's an SV6 (SVeeSix), marked TNL 22880-B on the board. On the other
hand, I guess you could also say it wasn't an ACTUAL SV6 because of the
customization done for Datum/TrueTime. Pictures are in the EEVBlog thread
at



The replacement I hacked came from a Placer 400 mobile unit. Not all
Placer 400 have SV6 in them though, one I got had an SV8 in it.

  08/09/2016 04:34 AM, Hal Murray wrote:
> ziggy9+time-n...@pumpkinbrook.com said:
>> It IS possible to hack a ’standard’ SV6 receiver such that it will work 
>> in
>> the XL-DC...
> Did your XL-DC have an actual SV6 in it?  I didn't see one in the picture 
> Rick sent out a few days ago.  There was a Trible sticker on a chip so I 
> suppose the logic from  a SV6 could have been laid out as part of another 
> board.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected antenna feedline

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi:

Another option is so Google for a "Breakout board" for the IC you're looking to work with.  People like Spark Fun, Seed 
studio,  make these.

It's a board that holds the chip and the needed accessory parts, but needs 
something else like an Arduino.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Bob Albert via time-nuts
 wrote:

Yes, a board with the required footprint would be the way to go.  Where does 
one find that?


You can have small PCBs made for $3 each.
There are places here in the US that will do PCBs for $3/square inch
with a one square inch minimum.   basicpcb.com sone of these.

It is not hard to design a basic "carrier board" that has just one
chip's footprint and maybe a decoupling capacitor and a 0.1" header
connector.   Many times the chip's data sheet will have an example PCB
layout you can borrow that will fit in a one square inch board.




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[time-nuts] Manual for Trimble Placer Gold APU

[Peter Vince]

Does anyone happen to have a user/operations manual for the Trimble Placer
Gold APU unit?  This was used in emergency service vehicles to give
reliable position information, and has inputs from the odometer and reverse
gear select to facilitate position estimation when temporarily out of sight
of GPS satellites.

I have found a sales specification sheet, and an installation manual on the
web, but can't find an ops manual that will describe all the command
sequences etc. that can be performed.

 Thanks, Peter Vince
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[time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi:

I've had good luck using any of the the ExpressPCB services that include solder mask with surface mount parts where the 
pitch is 0.05" (half normal DIP) and hand soldering (requires stereo microscope).

http://www.prc68.com/I/BTSG.shtml (battery top signal generator)
http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/ICS525v1o.jpg

http://www.prc68.com/I/SMT.shtml 

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.


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Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected antenna feedline

[Chris Albertson]

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Bob Albert via time-nuts
 wrote:
>
> Yes, a board with the required footprint would be the way to go.  Where does 
> one find that?


You can have small PCBs made for $3 each.
There are places here in the US that will do PCBs for $3/square inch
with a one square inch minimum.   basicpcb.com sone of these.

It is not hard to design a basic "carrier board" that has just one
chip's footprint and maybe a decoupling capacitor and a 0.1" header
connector.   Many times the chip's data sheet will have an example PCB
layout you can borrow that will fit in a one square inch board.


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Venus838LPx-T preliminary testing

[Nick Sayer via time-nuts]

And with that, the first run is out of stock. But don’t worry, I’ve placed an 
order for more modules and boards. Should be back in stock within a couple 
weeks, and the stock will run quite a bit deeper than the first batch did.

> On Aug 9, 2016, at 10:15 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> Just checked mine... it's an 822A.  They sell it as an '838...  bastards...  
> I just ordered one of yours.  My RS-232 GPS breakout board already has a 
> connector with Adafruit pinouts on it, so makes life easy.
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] Heathkit clock available

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Nick:

The GC-1000 was the clock that not only received and was set by WWV (or WWVH) but also had a disciplined 
oscillator(HFDO) at 3.6 MHz.

http://www.prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml

Tom: Have you made stability plots for the GC-1000 HFDO?

I recently got a Saunders Assoc. 150B Crystal Impedance Meter and the property sticker on the back says Heath Company.  
I'm guessing they tested some or all of the 3.6 MHz crystals for the GC-1000 to be sure they would "pull" as needed.  
I'd like to get my hands on a loose one of those to test it.

http://www.prc68.com/I/CrystalImpedanceMeters.html

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.

 Original Message 

I just got an email announcing this:

https://shop.heathkit.com/shop/product/most-reliable-clock-tm-gc-1006-26

They bill it as a "most reliable" clock. From the description it appears to be 
an AC line disciplined clock with battery backup.

I only mention it here because of the periodic discussion of AC line discipline 
and because I suspect I'm not the only one who remembers the old Heathkit 
fondly.


Sent from my iPhone
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[time-nuts] Venus838LPx-T preliminary testing

[Mark Sims]

Just checked mine... it's an 822A.  They sell it as an '838...  bastards...  I 
just ordered one of yours.  My RS-232 GPS breakout board already has a 
connector with Adafruit pinouts on it, so makes life easy.


---


> If you're talking about the NS-T, the picture on their store suggests it may 
> not be the exact same module. Their picture shows a Venus822A.
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Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected antenna feedline

[Bob Albert via time-nuts]

Yes, a board with the required footprint would be the way to go.  Where does 
one find that?
 

On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 12:00 AM, David  wrote:
 

 Richard mentioned the SMD to leaded adapters which work well.

Another way which is more suitable for Manhattan or dead bug type
construction is to glue or solder down just tiny printed circuit board
which has the SMD footprint and then solder directly to the leads or
extensions to the pads.  This does not increase the lead length any
more than necessary and places the ground plane in close proximity for
best RF performance.  If you are desperate, you can cut an SMD
footprint out of an existing unused donor board.

On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 03:37:07 + (UTC), you wrote:

>Your comments on layout made me think again of how to implement these 
>projects.  How do you use a 14 pin SMD IC?  I could try to connect it with 
>flying leads but I'd like something better.  Is there some kind of socket for 
>these devices?  Or a generic board to receive such things?
>
>Bob
>
>On Monday, August 8, 2016 8:02 PM, David  wrote:
>
> I actually tested various 74120 dual 4-input NAND drivers which
>produce the sync output on my B function generator to find ones
>which would provide the fastest and cleanest pulse.  AS (advanced
>schottky) and FAST (fast advanced schottky TTL) were the best for me.
>Modern inexpensive discrete logic however can do a much better these
>days.
>
>One interesting thing I learned is that the dual 4-input NAND pinout
>overlaps the quad 2-input NAND pinout so in a properly designed layout
>where only 2 gates are used, either part can be used.
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Re: [time-nuts] Venus838LPx-T preliminary testing

[Nick Sayer via time-nuts]

If you're talking about the NS-T, the picture on their store suggests it may 
not be the exact same module. Their picture shows a Venus822A.

That doesn't necessarily imply that it doesn't have the same behavior, of 
course. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 8, 2016, at 9:53 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> I measured the message end-time offset on the Navspark version (USB, virtual 
> 115,200 baud) at 153.8 msecs,  standard deviation of 7.1 msecs...  I don't 
> know how the real serial port version would compare.
> 
> 
> The Adafruit was 460 msecs, 50 msec standard deviation.
> 
> 
> -
> 
> 
>> I've been able to set the fudge value to 235 ms and actually get a "*" 
>> instead of an "x" from that line of ntpq.
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Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected antenna feedline

[David J Taylor]

From: Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)

I thought i might be possible to do this with a VNA, and a test antenna
located a known distance apart. So I asked in the Keysight forum on 8th Feb
2015
[]
Dave
___

Folks,

Yes, I've used the DG8SAQ Vector Network Analyser to measure cable lengths 
and impedance very easily.  The procedure is documented on page 458 et.seq. 
of this help file:


 http://sdr-kits.net/DG8SAQ/VNWA/VNWA_HELP.pdf

The VNWA proven one of the most useful pieces of kit I've bought, and 
support is superb.


 http://sdr-kits.net/VNWA3_Description.html

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 


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Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected antenna feedline

[Chuck Harris]

If you have *the* active antenna, it is pretty easy to
make a little quadrapole circularly polarized antenna out
of a couple of pieces of 141 semi-riged coax, and to transmit
signal into the active GPS antenna, and measure the signal
coming out of the active GPS antenna.

If you don't have the actual antenna being used, you could
get close by using another of the same type and manufacture.

I tested all of my GPS antennas that way for gain, as a way
to be sure that they were functioning properly, but there is
no reason that you couldn't use a VNA to test them for phase
delay, group delay, whatever you desire.

You could even modulate your sweep generator with a pulse,
detect the pulse with a diode, and measure the delay with
your oscilloscope.

-Chuck Harris

Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:
> On 8 Aug 2016 21:23, "Bob Camp"  wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> An even more significant question:
>>
>> Is it worth doing?
> 
>> Your antenna and module could easily have delays
>> in the 40 ns range. It has no impact on a “frequency” GPSDO. It is one of
> a number of static offsets in a time transfer system.
>>
>> Even the NIST level outfits seem to have issues coming up with a purely
> mathematical answer to “what is the offset”.
> 
> I thought i might be possible to do this with a VNA, and a test antenna
> located a known distance apart. So I asked in the Keysight forum on 8th Feb
> 2015
> 
> https://community.keysight.com/thread/23082
> 
> There's a replay by Dr_Joel, who is a VNA guru. Dr. Joel Dunsmore,
> suggesting the use of the group delay function. In one sentence he wrote
> 
> "What is the level of delay accuracy you are looking to achieve.  With this
> method, 1 nsec is reasonable, but if you need 100 psec or 10 psec, then we
> will have to be much more careful."
> 
> The thread never got a complete solution, but it might help if other look
> at that, and perhaps start another thread on a similar topic, as that one
> is very old. However, if you don't have a VNA, I would not bother asking,
> as you are not going to get a response (no pun intended), to a non-VNA
> question on a VNA forum.
> 
> But IF it was possible to determine the delay through the antenna/filter
> within a ns, it would make measurements of coax length useful, whereas as
> Bob said, it is pointless unless you know the characteristics of the active
> antenna.
> 
> I don't know if there would be a way of generating a pulse and feeding that
> into two antenna
> 
> 1) Active one.
> 
> 2) Passive one at the same distance, and same length of cable.
> 
> The pulse should arrive at the same time if the two antennas had equal
> delay. But the signal from the active one will arrive later due to the
> delay. That might be possible to see on a scope.
> 
> I think assuming that the delay in the active antenna can't be measured is
> maybe an assumption that is untrue. You could perhaps do better if you
> built your own antenna, and characterized the SAW filter separately.
> 
> Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Looking to find an antenna for a TrueTime XL-DC

[Tim Shoppa]

My first ever GPS receiver was a surplus SV6. Wow, that's a primitive
receiver. The PPS would shift by 6 milliseconds (not microseconds, but
milliseconds) every time I didn't have enough satellites in view.

Tim N3QE

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 4:34 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> ziggy9+time-n...@pumpkinbrook.com said:
> > It IS possible to hack a ’standard’ SV6 receiver such that it will work
> in
> > the XL-DC...
>
> Did your XL-DC have an actual SV6 in it?  I didn't see one in the picture
> Rick sent out a few days ago.  There was a Trible sticker on a chip so I
> suppose the logic from  a SV6 could have been laid out as part of another
> board.
>
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Speaking clock

[Morris Odell]

Yes the monotonous voice is one reason why it shuts up after 2 minutes. There 
are better voice synthesizers available these days but I wanted to resurrect 
the old Votrax chip. Actually I suspect any voice wold get pretty irritating 
after many repetitions. My Toyota now has a choice of 3 GPS voices - we'll see 
how long that novelty lasts.

73, Morris

> Can I order one with a custom voice ? Say Dolly Parton or Sean Connery? 
> After about 15 minutes of the Steven Hawkins  one I would be tempted to 
> adjust the tone with an 8lb sledge hammer 8^)
-- 
> Dave

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Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected antenna feedline

[Clint Jay]

I doubt it's worth mentioning that a random SMD footprint cut from a larger
board and some of the currently available eBay SMD adapter boards may have
plated through holes which could short if used to prototype on copper clad
board so it's worth paying a little attention to insulating the
'underside'  of the boards.

On 9 Aug 2016 08:00, "David"  wrote:

> Richard mentioned the SMD to leaded adapters which work well.
>
> Another way which is more suitable for Manhattan or dead bug type
> construction is to glue or solder down just tiny printed circuit board
> which has the SMD footprint and then solder directly to the leads or
> extensions to the pads.  This does not increase the lead length any
> more than necessary and places the ground plane in close proximity for
> best RF performance.  If you are desperate, you can cut an SMD
> footprint out of an existing unused donor board.
>
> On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 03:37:07 + (UTC), you wrote:
>
> >Your comments on layout made me think again of how to implement these
> projects.  How do you use a 14 pin SMD IC?  I could try to connect it with
> flying leads but I'd like something better.  Is there some kind of socket
> for these devices?  Or a generic board to receive such things?
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >On Monday, August 8, 2016 8:02 PM, David  wrote:
> >
> > I actually tested various 74120 dual 4-input NAND drivers which
> >produce the sync output on my B function generator to find ones
> >which would provide the fastest and cleanest pulse.  AS (advanced
> >schottky) and FAST (fast advanced schottky TTL) were the best for me.
> >Modern inexpensive discrete logic however can do a much better these
> >days.
> >
> >One interesting thing I learned is that the dual 4-input NAND pinout
> >overlaps the quad 2-input NAND pinout so in a properly designed layout
> >where only 2 gates are used, either part can be used.
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Looking to find an antenna for a TrueTime XL-DC

[Hal Murray]

ziggy9+time-n...@pumpkinbrook.com said:
> It IS possible to hack a ’standard’ SV6 receiver such that it will work in
> the XL-DC...

Did your XL-DC have an actual SV6 in it?  I didn't see one in the picture 
Rick sent out a few days ago.  There was a Trible sticker on a chip so I 
suppose the logic from  a SV6 could have been laid out as part of another 
board.



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected antenna feedline

[David]

Richard mentioned the SMD to leaded adapters which work well.

Another way which is more suitable for Manhattan or dead bug type
construction is to glue or solder down just tiny printed circuit board
which has the SMD footprint and then solder directly to the leads or
extensions to the pads.  This does not increase the lead length any
more than necessary and places the ground plane in close proximity for
best RF performance.  If you are desperate, you can cut an SMD
footprint out of an existing unused donor board.

On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 03:37:07 + (UTC), you wrote:

>Your comments on layout made me think again of how to implement these 
>projects.  How do you use a 14 pin SMD IC?  I could try to connect it with 
>flying leads but I'd like something better.  Is there some kind of socket for 
>these devices?  Or a generic board to receive such things?
>
>Bob
>
>On Monday, August 8, 2016 8:02 PM, David  wrote:
>
> I actually tested various 74120 dual 4-input NAND drivers which
>produce the sync output on my B function generator to find ones
>which would provide the fastest and cleanest pulse.  AS (advanced
>schottky) and FAST (fast advanced schottky TTL) were the best for me.
>Modern inexpensive discrete logic however can do a much better these
>days.
>
>One interesting thing I learned is that the dual 4-input NAND pinout
>overlaps the quad 2-input NAND pinout so in a properly designed layout
>where only 2 gates are used, either part can be used.
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[time-nuts] Venus838LPx-T preliminary testing

[Mark Sims]

I measured the message end-time offset on the Navspark version (USB, virtual 
115,200 baud) at 153.8 msecs,  standard deviation of 7.1 msecs...  I don't know 
how the real serial port version would compare.


The Adafruit was 460 msecs, 50 msec standard deviation.


-


> I've been able to set the fudge value to 235 ms and actually get a "*" 
> instead of an "x" from that line of ntpq.
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Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected antenna feedline

[Bob Albert via time-nuts]

Thanks for the tip!  I found a few at around a buck apiece.  Now to do due 
diligence to see if they will fit my parts.
Bob
 

On Monday, August 8, 2016 9:06 PM, Richard W. Solomon  
wrote:
 

 There are a few adapters over on that "auction" site.
Do a search on 14 pin smd to 14 pin dip.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Albert via 
time-nuts
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 8:37 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected 
antenna feedline

Your comments on layout made me think again of how to implement these projects. 
 How do you use a 14 pin SMD IC?  I could try to connect it with flying leads 
but I'd like something better.  Is there some kind of socket for these devices? 
 Or a generic board to receive such things?
Bob
 

    On Monday, August 8, 2016 8:02 PM, David  wrote:
 

 I actually tested various 74120 dual 4-input NAND drivers which produce the 
sync output on my B function generator to find ones which would provide the 
fastest and cleanest pulse.  AS (advanced
schottky) and FAST (fast advanced schottky TTL) were the best for me.
Modern inexpensive discrete logic however can do a much better these days.

One interesting thing I learned is that the dual 4-input NAND pinout overlaps 
the quad 2-input NAND pinout so in a properly designed layout where only 2 
gates are used, either part can be used.

On Mon, 08 Aug 2016 16:31:44 -0400, you wrote:

>If you have a function generator with a sync output, you can use that 
>pulse into a T connector with your scope to do a TDR measurement of the 
>cable. If you have a scrap of the new cable, you can use that to calibrate the 
>setup.
>
>Regards,
>Tom
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