Re: [time-nuts] External cooling fans - source

[Dr. David Kirkby]

On 18 December 2017 at 23:11, Charles Steinmetz 
wrote:

> From time to time, the subject of external cooling fans comes up -- for
> example, in discussions of the HP 5370A/B with their steaming hot
> heatsinks.  I have several times recommended very quiet, all-metal, 4" desk
> fans as ideal for the job, but have not been able to suggest a source.
>

For what it is worth, my 5370B run very hot, which forced me to check my
mains voltage as I knew every time I had done a quick measurement, the
voltage was above 230 V. So for a few days I logged the voltage, and found
it was consistently high. The maximum permitted here in the UK is 253 V,
but I measured mine at 255.x volts. It was the heat of the 5370B that
forced me to contact the electricity supply company (UK Power Networks),
who logged the voltage for 4 days. I have a 3-phase supply here, which is
unusual for a domestic property, but each of the 3 phases was consistently
high. I managed to get the supply company to reduce the voltage by 5%. That
made a *significant* difference in the heatsink temperature of the 5370B,
and a significant difference to to the exhaust temperature of my HP 7
series system.

I'm not saying an extra fan is not a good idea, but it is certainly worth
ensuring the mains voltage is not too high. I was told by UK Power Networks
that they aim for 245-250 V in rural areas - this is despite the UK is
supposed to be 230 -6%/+10%. On equipment with linear power supplies, a few
extra volts can lead to a significant increase in the amount of heat the
regulators produce. 10% extra voltage does *not* equate to 10% extra power
dissipation, but considerably more.

I found quite a reluctance on the part of the UK Power Networks to reduce
the voltage. Even though it was was on average more than 5% high, the
technical manager who took ownership of the problem only wanted to reduce
the voltage by 2.5%, despite they could easily reduce it 5%. Luckily, when
the engineers came to adjust the supply voltage, (which they do by changing
the taps on the 11 kV primary), I managed to convince them that there were
very few properties on the transformer, and the furthest was an old couple
that used very little electricity. So they did reduce it 5%, which is the
maximum they could. But they warned me that if there were complaints of low
voltage, they would have to increase it 2.5%. Luckily for me, nobody
locally noticed the reduction in mains voltage, and it is still on average
over 230 V.

It would be interesting to know how low the AC input can go on a 5370B
before the regulators fail to regulate. Given they are the sort of
instrument one might want to run for long periods, running one on a UPS,
with a transformer to reduce the output of the UPS, might not be such a bad
idea.


> Charles
>

Dave
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[time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A

[Mark Sims]

I have worked out a design for using an LCD display in the 531xx counters.   
Basically it's a replacement front panel board with a micro and graphical LCD.  
 I'm probably not going to build it until my VFD goes bad... maybe by then OLED 
displays will have their lifetime flaws worked out...  current ones degrade 
much faster the VFDs... even if they are not powered on.

Oh, and another quirk of the 53132A...  the frequency reference output can be a 
bit distorted.   On mine the duty cycle is off by around 1.25%

---

> They all will eventually die as the las of the VFD displays 
wear out. At that point, hopefully we all will be running them via serial or 
GPIB and 
not even notice the issue. 
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Re: [time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A

[Tom Van Baak]

Rick,

The 53132A is a "12 digit/s" counter. Unless the frequency is really close to 
10 MHz. Then it becomes a 11 digit/s counter. This is because it uses 
oversampling (IIRC, 200k samples/s) and it relies to some extent on statistics 
for its 12 digit resolution.

This technique does not do as well when DUT is too closely aligned in phase and 
frequency with REF. I mean, you can oversample all you want, but when the two 
clocks appear locked most of those samples are redundant; they offer no 
statistical advantage. Hence the reduced resolution. By a factor of 10!

The nice thing about the 53131/53132 is that this condition is recognized in 
f/w and the output resolution is pruned automatically. If you have long log 
files of an oscillator warming up you can see it quite nicely.

Note also that it's not just when DUT is 10 MHz or near 10 MHz; there are 
hundreds of magic frequencies where reduced resolution occurs: any rational 
fraction or multiple of that's within about 7 digits of 10 MHz. This is not 
undocumented. Buried in the manual is:

http://leapsecond.com/pages/53132/53132-reduced-resolution.gif

Also, the issue isn't unique to the 53132A. Any counter or software that uses 
oversampling has to face this effect [1]. That is, you can't blindly assume 
your resolution always improves by sqrt(N). As obscure as this effect is, I'm 
really impressed hp put so much thought into it. It's one reason I have a lot 
of trust in the 53132A.

Finally, at the risk of mentioning noise, measurement, and ADEV here, you can 
also guess that this clever oversampling measurement technique has 
ramifications on the fidelity of ADEV calculations made from frequency 
readings. Check previous posts, probably from Magnus, that discusses this [2].

/tvb

[1] One way to avoid or reduce the chances are to use an obscure frequency for 
REF. Another way is to deliberately apply carefully characterized jitter to DUT 
or REF during measurement. You can see the connection with DMTD systems, or 
TimePod.

[2] See papers like:

"On temporal correlations in high–resolution frequency counting", Dunker, 
Hauglin, Ole Petter Rønningen (!!!)
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1604.05076.pdf

"High resolution frequency counters", E. Rubiola
http://rubiola.org/pdf-slides/2012T-IFCS-Counters.pdf

"The Ω counter, a frequency counter based on the Linear Regression", 
Rubiola, Lenczner, Bourgeois, Vernotte
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1506.05009.pdf

"Isolating Frequency Measurement Error and Sourcing Frequency Error near 
the Reference Frequency Harmonics"
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-9189EN.pdf



- Original Message - 
From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
; "Pete Lancashire" 
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A


> I worked in the HP Santa Clara Division frequency counter
> section at the time of the development of the 53132A series, which had 
> the internal code name of "Major League Baseball".  IIRC, the external
> reference circuit in it was designed by a couple of
> engineers who had no background in time nuttery and
> did a mediocre job.  Someone else commented on a problem
> with it not wanting to measure 10 MHz correctly.  I
> never heard of that before, but it would not surprise
> me, because the main measurement engine was designed
> by a very excellent FPGA engineer without an extensive
> background in time nuttery.  The problem mentioned might
> have been too subtle.
> 
> The 53132 has many good points but is not perfect.
> 
> Rick


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Re: [time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

I worked in the HP Santa Clara Division frequency counter
section at the time of the development of the 53132A series, which had 
the internal code name of "Major League Baseball".  IIRC, the external

reference circuit in it was designed by a couple of
engineers who had no background in time nuttery and
did a mediocre job.  Someone else commented on a problem
with it not wanting to measure 10 MHz correctly.  I
never heard of that before, but it would not surprise
me, because the main measurement engine was designed
by a very excellent FPGA engineer without an extensive
background in time nuttery.  The problem mentioned might
have been too subtle.

The 53132 has many good points but is not perfect.

Rick

On 12/18/2017 11:23 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote:

Friday I acquired a 53132A

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xexnJcEmT8tEWXi73

It does not have any options.

It is from a place that sells "selected" E-waste. I was in a water damaged
box, and was from a DHL freight insurance sale. It's been in the box until
a couple weeks ago.

Anyway, until now I've not followed the conversation on the issues with
using the External Reference, which I would like to do. But don't see if
there
were any conclusions or anything that could be done other then the issues
where fixed in the "B" version.

Is there a problem and a 'fix' that I missed searching the archives ?

-pete
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[time-nuts] Fwd: Cannot Command RFTGm-II-Rb / RFTGm-II-XO

[Patrick Murphy]

@Mark - I would certainly take the latest version of Lady Heather to
compile. I have already compiled and am using the Dec 2016 / v5 version of
LH now, and while it receives data it does not recognize either Rb or XO
devices. I did pull down RFTG.EXE, et. al., off the ko4bb.com web site.
Unfortunately, wine crashes with this executable and I have not run the
cause to ground yet.

And trust me - you are not the only member of the wonky / crusty / mildly
unstable club . . . :-)

-Pat

--

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 02:56:12 +
From: Mark Sims 
To: "time-nuts@febo.com" 
Subject: [time-nuts] Cannot Command RFTGm-II-Rb / RFTGm-II-XO
Message-ID:


Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

The RFTG-m units don't speak SCPI.   They have an undocumented binary
control language.   I reversed engineered the protocol and the latest
version of Lady Heather can talk to them.  The v5.0 release of Heather does
not support these.   If you run something linuxy or can compile the v5.0
release, I can send you the newest version to try.  Hope to get a public
Windoze release out shortly...

On ko4bb.com there is a copy of Lucent's control software for Win 95/98
(works under XP).  It is six (?) files that need to be saved in a
directory.  It is rather wonky and crusty and a bit unstable (hmmm...
sounds a bit like me).

--
Forwarded conversation
Subject: Cannot Command RFTGm-II-Rb / RFTGm-II-XO


From: Patrick Murphy 
Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 3:18 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com


I have recently acquired a used Lucent RFTGm-II-Rb and XO. The set came
with cables and frame, so I am pretty sure everything is hooked together
correctly. I have powered both units, and after a few hours I have the
green "Online" light lit on the REF-0 (Rb) and the yellow "Standby" light
lit on the REF-1 (XO). I am watching serial traffic via two RS422<->USB
adapters. After switching a couple of wires around, I am seeing TCODE data
from both units on the RX side at the PC. I have a clean 15MHz waveform and
2 ugly 10MHz waveforms from the RB, and PPS from both units. All seems well
so far.

I'd like to hook them up to two instances of Lady Heather and see what is
going on. The problem is that I cannot interrupt the TCODE stream to put
the device into SCPI mode. I have tried commands like ":ptim:tcod:cont 0"
(also "ptim:tcod:cont 0", without the leading ":") and variants of
":SYST:STAT?". Both modules just ignore them.

I have a bootable Linux partition. I guess I can load up WINE and try the
somewhat dated "RFTG.EXE". That seems a little extreme, especially if I
need to repeat that every time I need to restart the RFTGs.

Any suggestions what I should try next before I go the Linux route? Surely
there is some command or secret handshake I am just missing.

Thanks!

-Patrick Murphy
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Re: [time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

If it is in working condition and stays in working condition, anything under 
$300 is 
a very good deal. 

Bob

> On Dec 18, 2017, at 2:54 PM, Pete Lancashire  wrote:
> 
> Tom,
> 
> I should have re-read the model number, no wonder I could not find anything.
> Hopefully still a good $100 investment.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> The 53132 is the older version of the 53230 counter. It’s been out of
>> production
>> and past "end of life" support for quite a while now. It’s main issue
>> measurement
>> wise is a group of issues that make it less sensitive (lower resolution)
>> than one
>> might think right at 10 MHz and to a lesser extent at 10 MHz / N or 10 MHz
>> * N.
>> There is no known “fix” other than running it with a reference that is
>> detuned a bit
>> from 10 MHz. That obviously has some issues all by its self. I suppose a
>> fix could
>> be to not measure 10 MHz ….
>> 
>> The biggest failure point in the counters that I have seen has been the
>> power supplies.
>> They apparently came as a completed module from an HP supplier. One
>> wonders who
>> that might have been …. I would strongly recommend taking a look at yours
>> to be sure
>> the water did not damage the board. I would also make sure the fan is
>> clean and
>> operates correctly. Clogged fans lead to dead power supply boards ….
>> 
>> All that said, it’s a pretty good counter. I’m not sure it is worth a
>> crazy price, but there is
>> a price I would gladly pay for one. They all will eventually die as the
>> las of the VFD displays
>> wear out. At that point, hopefully we all will be running them via serial
>> or GPIB and
>> not even notice the issue.
>> 
>> Lots of Fun
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Dec 18, 2017, at 2:23 PM, Pete Lancashire 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Friday I acquired a 53132A
>>> 
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/xexnJcEmT8tEWXi73
>>> 
>>> It does not have any options.
>>> 
>>> It is from a place that sells "selected" E-waste. I was in a water
>> damaged
>>> box, and was from a DHL freight insurance sale. It's been in the box
>> until
>>> a couple weeks ago.
>>> 
>>> Anyway, until now I've not followed the conversation on the issues with
>>> using the External Reference, which I would like to do. But don't see if
>>> there
>>> were any conclusions or anything that could be done other then the issues
>>> where fixed in the "B" version.
>>> 
>>> Is there a problem and a 'fix' that I missed searching the archives ?
>>> 
>>> -pete
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> ___
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>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A

[Pete Lancashire]

Bob,

I took the cover off, looks like the moisture inside the box was not that
bad, can't see anything
with corrosion, rust, oxides etc. And my first test sticking my head in the
box and sniffing for
the usual mold/mildew smells.

On that VFD .. I totally agree my a 3324A and a 8664A are pretty much no
longer have a disply,
found a hanger queen with a good display for the 8664A but the 3324A is now
pretty much remote
only, or push buttons and hope for the best.



On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Pete Lancashire 
wrote:

> Tom,
>
> I should have re-read the model number, no wonder I could not find
> anything.
> Hopefully still a good $100 investment.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> The 53132 is the older version of the 53230 counter. It’s been out of
>> production
>> and past "end of life" support for quite a while now. It’s main issue
>> measurement
>> wise is a group of issues that make it less sensitive (lower resolution)
>> than one
>> might think right at 10 MHz and to a lesser extent at 10 MHz / N or 10
>> MHz * N.
>> There is no known “fix” other than running it with a reference that is
>> detuned a bit
>> from 10 MHz. That obviously has some issues all by its self. I suppose a
>> fix could
>> be to not measure 10 MHz ….
>>
>> The biggest failure point in the counters that I have seen has been the
>> power supplies.
>> They apparently came as a completed module from an HP supplier. One
>> wonders who
>> that might have been …. I would strongly recommend taking a look at yours
>> to be sure
>> the water did not damage the board. I would also make sure the fan is
>> clean and
>> operates correctly. Clogged fans lead to dead power supply boards ….
>>
>> All that said, it’s a pretty good counter. I’m not sure it is worth a
>> crazy price, but there is
>> a price I would gladly pay for one. They all will eventually die as the
>> las of the VFD displays
>> wear out. At that point, hopefully we all will be running them via serial
>> or GPIB and
>> not even notice the issue.
>>
>> Lots of Fun
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> > On Dec 18, 2017, at 2:23 PM, Pete Lancashire 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Friday I acquired a 53132A
>> >
>> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/xexnJcEmT8tEWXi73
>> >
>> > It does not have any options.
>> >
>> > It is from a place that sells "selected" E-waste. I was in a water
>> damaged
>> > box, and was from a DHL freight insurance sale. It's been in the box
>> until
>> > a couple weeks ago.
>> >
>> > Anyway, until now I've not followed the conversation on the issues with
>> > using the External Reference, which I would like to do. But don't see if
>> > there
>> > were any conclusions or anything that could be done other then the
>> issues
>> > where fixed in the "B" version.
>> >
>> > Is there a problem and a 'fix' that I missed searching the archives ?
>> >
>> > -pete
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
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>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A

[Pete Lancashire]

Tom,

I should have re-read the model number, no wonder I could not find anything.
Hopefully still a good $100 investment.



On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> The 53132 is the older version of the 53230 counter. It’s been out of
> production
> and past "end of life" support for quite a while now. It’s main issue
> measurement
> wise is a group of issues that make it less sensitive (lower resolution)
> than one
> might think right at 10 MHz and to a lesser extent at 10 MHz / N or 10 MHz
> * N.
> There is no known “fix” other than running it with a reference that is
> detuned a bit
> from 10 MHz. That obviously has some issues all by its self. I suppose a
> fix could
> be to not measure 10 MHz ….
>
> The biggest failure point in the counters that I have seen has been the
> power supplies.
> They apparently came as a completed module from an HP supplier. One
> wonders who
> that might have been …. I would strongly recommend taking a look at yours
> to be sure
> the water did not damage the board. I would also make sure the fan is
> clean and
> operates correctly. Clogged fans lead to dead power supply boards ….
>
> All that said, it’s a pretty good counter. I’m not sure it is worth a
> crazy price, but there is
> a price I would gladly pay for one. They all will eventually die as the
> las of the VFD displays
> wear out. At that point, hopefully we all will be running them via serial
> or GPIB and
> not even notice the issue.
>
> Lots of Fun
>
> Bob
>
> > On Dec 18, 2017, at 2:23 PM, Pete Lancashire 
> wrote:
> >
> > Friday I acquired a 53132A
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/xexnJcEmT8tEWXi73
> >
> > It does not have any options.
> >
> > It is from a place that sells "selected" E-waste. I was in a water
> damaged
> > box, and was from a DHL freight insurance sale. It's been in the box
> until
> > a couple weeks ago.
> >
> > Anyway, until now I've not followed the conversation on the issues with
> > using the External Reference, which I would like to do. But don't see if
> > there
> > were any conclusions or anything that could be done other then the issues
> > where fixed in the "B" version.
> >
> > Is there a problem and a 'fix' that I missed searching the archives ?
> >
> > -pete
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The 53132 is the older version of the 53230 counter. It’s been out of 
production 
and past "end of life" support for quite a while now. It’s main issue 
measurement 
wise is a group of issues that make it less sensitive (lower resolution) than 
one 
might think right at 10 MHz and to a lesser extent at 10 MHz / N or 10 MHz * N. 
There is no known “fix” other than running it with a reference that is detuned 
a bit
from 10 MHz. That obviously has some issues all by its self. I suppose a fix 
could 
be to not measure 10 MHz ….

The biggest failure point in the counters that I have seen has been the power 
supplies. 
They apparently came as a completed module from an HP supplier. One wonders who
that might have been …. I would strongly recommend taking a look at yours to be 
sure
the water did not damage the board. I would also make sure the fan is clean and 
operates correctly. Clogged fans lead to dead power supply boards …. 

All that said, it’s a pretty good counter. I’m not sure it is worth a crazy 
price, but there is
a price I would gladly pay for one. They all will eventually die as the las of 
the VFD displays 
wear out. At that point, hopefully we all will be running them via serial or 
GPIB and 
not even notice the issue. 

Lots of Fun 

Bob

> On Dec 18, 2017, at 2:23 PM, Pete Lancashire  wrote:
> 
> Friday I acquired a 53132A
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/xexnJcEmT8tEWXi73
> 
> It does not have any options.
> 
> It is from a place that sells "selected" E-waste. I was in a water damaged
> box, and was from a DHL freight insurance sale. It's been in the box until
> a couple weeks ago.
> 
> Anyway, until now I've not followed the conversation on the issues with
> using the External Reference, which I would like to do. But don't see if
> there
> were any conclusions or anything that could be done other then the issues
> where fixed in the "B" version.
> 
> Is there a problem and a 'fix' that I missed searching the archives ?
> 
> -pete
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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Re: [time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A

[Tom Van Baak]

Pete,

I don't recall that anyone complained much about the old 53132A, the counter 
that you have.

The discussions we had about external reference a while ago were about new 
53230A. There's nothing wrong with it, I mean, it's a very nice counter, but 
since it's a fancy, new design, high-end, 20 ps counter some of us had equally 
high expectations about the purity of the input or output reference, or other 
subtle details of its operation.

/tvb


- Original Message - 
From: "Pete Lancashire" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2017 11:23 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A


> Friday I acquired a 53132A
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/xexnJcEmT8tEWXi73
> 
> It does not have any options.
> 
> It is from a place that sells "selected" E-waste. I was in a water damaged
> box, and was from a DHL freight insurance sale. It's been in the box until
> a couple weeks ago.
> 
> Anyway, until now I've not followed the conversation on the issues with
> using the External Reference, which I would like to do. But don't see if
> there
> were any conclusions or anything that could be done other then the issues
> where fixed in the "B" version.
> 
> Is there a problem and a 'fix' that I missed searching the archives ?
> 
> -pete
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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[time-nuts] Recently acquired 53132A

[Pete Lancashire]

Friday I acquired a 53132A

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xexnJcEmT8tEWXi73

It does not have any options.

It is from a place that sells "selected" E-waste. I was in a water damaged
box, and was from a DHL freight insurance sale. It's been in the box until
a couple weeks ago.

Anyway, until now I've not followed the conversation on the issues with
using the External Reference, which I would like to do. But don't see if
there
were any conclusions or anything that could be done other then the issues
where fixed in the "B" version.

Is there a problem and a 'fix' that I missed searching the archives ?

-pete
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Re: [time-nuts] ergodicity vs 1/f

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message , Magnus D
anielson writes:

Years ago I ran into this paper:

https://fas.org/irp/agency/dod/jason/statistics.pdf

What is amazing about it, is that back in 1992 they nailed the
odds of climate change to north of 100k, in a statistically
rigorous manner.

They can do this because "Extreme Value Theory" is an extremely
sensitive way to determine if a process is static or if it fits
your (noise-)model.

I've often wondered about EVTs applications to oscillator noise,
but Real Life have kept me busy with other things, so I'll happily
pass this ball to anybody else who might want a go...

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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