normanliz...@gmail.com said:
Turns out that the original receiver was a svee6.
Let me know if you want a real SVee6. I've got 2 left. :)
---
I also have a pair of small boards that I don't have any info on.
PCB says Trimble, 39818-00-C. The 00 is written in by hand.
There is a big chip
PS: What sort of Bandwidth is found in GPS front ends and antennae?
Ballpark of 20-50 Mhz.
The data sheet for the Motorola patch antenna from TAPR says 45 MHz for the 3
db points.
https://www.tapr.org/gps_ant1a.html
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It turned out that ribbon cable appropriate for this application was either
not available or too expensive.
Are standard disk cables a reasonable length? (and a pinout you can use)
I don't know the details, but there are two types of disk cables. The old
style uses standard 40 pin ribbon
b...@evoria.net said:
So, I may throw another cap on it, but it seems to be clean down to what I
can measure at the OCXO on my old Tek 455 with an X10 probe.
Another thing to consider when chasing that sort of problem: How much are you
picking up with your scope probe and/or its ground wire?
jim...@earthlink.net said:
Does anyone have a feel for what the minimum size reflector at some small
distance would be detectable on a GPS timing receiver? WOuld you be able to
see a change of a 1 meter square reflector 10 meters away?
I suspect it depends on the elevation angle of the
ch...@chriswilson.tv said:
I have 4 windows based PC's on my home network, for years i have used
Meinberg or an equivalent to set the PC time. I was wondering if I could, or
should, use my permanently on Trimble Thunderbolt to set the PC clocks? Any
advantages or disadvantages. I believe
Tue evening, I went to a talk on Auroras and Solar Storms. It was targeted
as the general public so they didn't get into any technical details.
One of the pictures showed a GPS setup. They were using it to measure free
electrons in the ionosphere.
A friend found this in case anybody wants
saidj...@aol.com said:
its not a GPSDO though, not even a simple one :)
It does not discipline an oscillator. It generates the output by
mathematically calculating how many phases it has to add/drop in a second,
then digitally adds/drops/extends/retards the phase of the output clock to
komne...@yahoo.co.jp said:
My Z3805A has the trouble that the date on SATSTAT is not changed by command
(:GPS:INIT:DATE (yr,mo,day)).
Anyone can advice me for the above.
It may only work if you send the date before it locks to GPS. That is you
need to do something like:
power off
tn...@toneh.demon.co.uk said:
Tony, any chance you could do a quick measurement at 8 MHz -
I think that should be a more constant period. ...
No problem, its still set-up. As you'd expect its rock solid at 8MHz with
no visible jitter.
I don't think you have fixed the problem, just made
kb...@n1k.org said:
If you have a temperature stable environment (or create one) you can get
some very good results with an (good) Rb locked to a (good) GPS via a proper
long time constant setup. Its not easy, but it can be done.
What's the temperature sensitivity of the typical
cdel...@juno.com said:
The Dc to Dc is running at 22Khz and maybe 20 Watts.
Can't find any info that would allow me to decide on a proper substitute.
Anybody out there have any data on this?
National Semiconductor had a few app-notes that were cookbooks for using
their chips to build DC-DC
d...@irtelemetrics.com said:
If I had 10Mhz or some other high frequency on the EFC line, would a typical
OCXO respond to that?
Some VCXOs actually specify their bandwidth. High audio is sometimes useful.
I haven't seen anything beyond that, but I'm just listening to discussions
like this
This topic comes up every few years.
I found an interesting thread back in late 2006.
Typical EFC frequency response (bandwidth) of a OCXO
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2006-December/022758.html
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kb...@n1k.org said:
The biggest problem comes from crystal spurs rather than crystal Q.
What's the mechanism for making spurs with a crystal?
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To
b...@evoria.net said:
Note: The DAC module is designed specifically for audio applications and is
not recommended for control type applications.
I had hoped that it wouldn't be a problem for driving an OCXO, but my
mistake. The datasheet also notes that the DAC has 16-bit resolution but
Also, another issue with the end termination happens when driving very long
coax cables: RG-142 for example has about 60 Ohms center conductor
resistance and 7.5 Ohms shield resistance at 1km length.
RG-142 is far from low-loss. Does anybody use it at that length?
What's the rise time
dave.martind...@gmail.com said:
Is there any reason (other than cost) not to both series-terminate the
source and parallel-terminate the sink?
With both series and parallel termination, the signal at the receiver is 1/2
the output level of the output driver. That doesn't work well if you
tmiller11...@verizon.net said:
So does adding ~80 pF per meter or 8 nF for 100 meters (RG58) to your output
have any effect on the risetime? Because that is what it will see with an
open cable.
That way of thinking only works if the risetime is long relative to the cable
length. In this
oldmath...@gmail.com said:
has anyone suggested a 50R in series with a capacitor as termination? no
DC currents
I've seen that suggestion before. I don't remember where. It was a long
time ago.
In order to work, the R-C time constant has to be long relative to the
rise/fall time of the
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
[snip long discussion of PID/PLL]
Make sure you have a damping factor of at least 3.
Is that a general rule for PIDs or something specific to PLLs/GPSDOs?
Where did the value 3 come from?
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saidj...@aol.com said:
here are some plots from two GPSDOs, one series terminated (CSAC GPSDO),
and one load-terminated (Agilent 58503A) product.
Nice pictures. Thanks.
My reading of your pictures is that the 58503A has a weak driver. Do you
have a TBolt?
... and there is a little hump
matthias.je...@gmx.de said:
So I took the unit to work and hooked it to a signal generator capable of
simulating GPS, GNSS etc...
Neat. Thanks, both for running the experiment and for sharing the results.
Thunderbolt will be usable after July, 2017 - I?d be happy to live with a
wrong
I don't think you can use a GPS almanac from 2012.
Why not? Just pretend that the time you want is 2012+1024 weeks. You won't
be able to watch it pass through the magic rollover time, but you can verify
that it works correctly once it gets past that magic time.
Crazy question
paulsw...@gmail.com said:
Did try lots of frequencies and divider math to come up with a simple LO
scheme for 61 or 59 KHz. Messy.
There are companies that will make a crystal or oscillator at any frequency
you want at a not silly price. Delivery is not overnight.
Beware: There are several
he...@pericynthion.org said:
Since the GPS signals come from all parts of the sky this is pretty much
required, unless you're using fancy beam steering techniques.
How hard is the beam steering relative to everything else?
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drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk said:
Two people responded - one says a OCXO and the other an TCXO!!
The warmup time is I think an hour, but clearly that is not the time for an
oven to warm up.
An hour seems like a reasonable OCXO warm-up time to me. You might get
faster warm-up times, but
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk said:
Unfortunately Keysight have now sold all the cables, but do have the front
panel overlay which is arguably the most critical item.
Spending £500 on 5 cables and a front panel overly is more attractive than
spending £8000 on an upgrading the model.
For
hau...@keteu.org said:
I am trying to avoid an extra A/D step here, but I have no experience with
it. Post-filter, I am satisfied that a simple one-bit D/A with passive
filtering will get me to 16 bits resolution for the VCXO control, enough for
ppb resolution.
One bit D/As need a filter.
hau...@keteu.org said:
It was the other end of the PLL I was hoping to get some pointers on.
Specifically, I can implement the dividers and the standard double-flip-flop
PFD, but what best replaces the charge pump in a fully-digital
implementation? I will have down/up signals which are
vesoa...@deea.isel.ipl.pt said:
I would suggest some 3.3V logic (inverter) gate with 5V tolerant inputs
from Little Logic TI portfolio. There are buffered and unbuffered gate
available.
What's the advantage of a chip over a pair of resistors?
hau...@keteu.org said:
I have seen a resistive
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk said:
Anyway, later today (tomorrow ??) I will post a plot of frequency vs time.
The question is though, how long is thing thing likely to take too cool?
I'd expect an exponential decay so you need to specify how close to ambient
you want to get. I'd guess a
jim...@earthlink.net said:
I could hook a Prologix on the back of a PTS with GPIB, and hit it over the
ethernet, but I'm not sure I'd be able to get the steps to occur when I
want them (ethernet and determinism do not go well together).
Timing on Ethernet is as good as RS-232 if you have a
br...@ko4bb.com said:
Kratos (www.kratosepd.com) do fast switching synthesiser subsystems that
can be locked to a reference..
What does fast switching mean in the context of a DDS?
What does the spectrum of a DDS look like if I switch back and forth between
2 frequencies at 1 KHz? Or
j...@jks.com said:
I made a real mistake by not running the 5370's 10 MHz oven clock, that was
available right there on a processor board pin, to a GPIO on the Beagle so
it could be accurately counted with the built-in event counter and software
overflow (that clock used to drive the
b...@evoria.net said:
Two days this week, there was a 3 or 4 minute outage on DirecTV as the sun
aligned with the satellite and my dish. So I was wondering what kind of
effect this has on the GPS system and especially timing receivers.
Is there any easy way to get a signal/noise reading out
gign...@gmail.com said:
Is it actually possible to phase lock two oscillators together cross the
distance from DC to Colorado Springs? (2400 kilometers or so). ?
I think so - if your clocks are stable enough.
There is probably a simple rule for PLL stability based on round-trip-time
and
b...@evoria.net said:
I found a picture that looks like your OCXO on Brooke Clarke's website.
Maybe he has a schematic or pinouts for the oscillator.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/Z3805A07b.jpg
More info here:
http://www.prc68.com/I/Z3805A.html
The Z3805A is very similar to the Z3801A
anders.e.e.wal...@gmail.com said:
Does it matter that the ADC in the sound-card is probably clocked by a
crystal clock that is 50ppm off and has bad ADEV?
You can calibrate the clock on the ADC.
One way is to feed a known reference frequency in on the other channel.
(That's assuming you
kb...@n1k.org said:
If you are going to get any benefit from multiple antennas, you want to
space them as far apart as possible. You are better off with one antenna and
a splitter than with two close spaced antennas.
Does anybody have data? How would I measure it?
Where is the knee? I
kb...@n1k.org said:
Is it silicon or is it something more exotic? In general, exotic is not good
for 1/F noise.
Data sheets say submicron CMOS.
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To
kb...@n1k.org said:
The combination of the constellation and the ionosphere are what I believe
give you the once a day (rather than once per 12 hours) bump.
There is another layer. In addition to the normal once-a-day type
differences, the pattern of satellites drifts slowly from day to
time-nuts@febo.com said:
The problem is that the ocxo maintains its frequency even though the EFC
control voltage is changing. Thus phase error is accruing making the efc
larger and larger due to the P term.
Then at some point the crystal 'snaps' and jumps in frequency, overshooting
the
t...@leapsecond.com said:
You have to synchronise between the counter
value and what the OS understands is 'system time' in order to create a
retrospective timestamp for when the event occured.
Also true.
One solution to the problem is use two independent HW capture inputs. One
for a
sjdeha...@gmail.com said:
I think you pointed out that this GPS unit defaults to the Navman Binary
mode. I have tried to use HyperTerminal via a serial port and about all I
see is @@EA followed by a burst of random characters every second. I tried
4800 and 9600 baud. I would like to be
dgmin...@mediacombb.net said:
The Z38xx units are 11 wide (10-9/16 mounting centers)
Looking in the Z3801A manual, I see that the rack trays that these units are
mounted in are 28.5 wide ...
I think lots of (most?) Telco gear uses 23 inch racks.
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t...@leapsecond.com said:
2) For long-term analysis, even 1 PPS is overkill. Having more data may not
improve your oscillator drift plot at all. This is because the frequency is
a moving target. Ever more precise measurements of a moving target are
wasted; they don't add any clarity to the
dgmin...@mediacombb.net said:
The model 260 datasheet is on MTI's web site at http://www.mti-milliren.com
That data sheet covers their standard models. You can see the part number in
the far right column of the table on the bottom of the last page of the
double page spread. They are likely
b...@evoria.net said:
The mode says Power-Up: GPS Acquisition, so I guess that's OK. I think
things are progressing. It's attempting to survey, but reporting
Suspended: poor geometry. I suppose with a little more time this will
work itself out? It seems to be slowly tracking more sats, as
b...@evoria.net said:
I'm pretty sure it does provide +5 to the antenna. I didn't understand what
I was seeing for quite some time yesterday, and it seemed like it was
telling me it didn't see an antenna. ...
No, it's telling you that your antenna is not in a good location.
When the
b...@evoria.net said:
Thanks for more pics. Was there any indication of where the 10MHz gets its
signal? Could you see a trace, or did I miss that in the pics? I'm a bit
too ham-fisted to go prodding around in mine, so I've left it closed after
an initial urge to see the top of the board.
b...@evoria.net said:
The little brick says it's happy with 18-36V.
A 2:1 range of input voltage is common for power bricks.
On page 5-4, the Z3801A manual says:
BTS 27 nominal 19-30 operating, over 23 starting
BSC 54 nominal 37-60 operating, over 46 starting
A couple of other
tmiller11...@verizon.net said:
I am trying to find out how they triple the 5 MHz to get 15 MHz. Maybe it
can be changed to just double to 10 MHz. There are a few inductors on the
board and that may make for a filter.
The Fourier expansion of a square wave is odd harmonics. To get 15 from 5,
kb...@n1k.org said:
It is not at all unusual for signals to be re-clocked when going into a
micro. Often the documentation on this process is somewhere between vague
and non-exsistant.
Reclocking is almost required if you want to avoid metastability issues.
There is often some
subscripti...@burble.com said:
In an effort to understand which component was responsible for my ~17us
spikes I decided to go back to basics with just a single DFlop (AC74) on a
breadboard; no BBB, just a couple of oscillators driving the data and clock
pins ...
I don't know what the
subscripti...@burble.com said:
In an effort to understand which component was responsible for my ~17us
spikes ...
17 microseconds is 58 KHz. That's a reasonable number for a switching power
supply.
What does your power look like?
I don't know what you are using for a circuit. My guess is
b...@evoria.net said:
I've noticed the same. In looking at the Satstat program, it appears that
when you enter a location, that's only treated as a hint. There is also a
value you can set to zero that supposedly tells it to come up with the last
hold value. It didn't seem to work for me.
We had something like that in school when I was a kid. (many years ago)
I remember occasional click-click-click... as it got reset.
mp...@clanbaker.org said:
I am wondering what the easiest approach to this might be?I suppose I
could take the 1-sec pulses from a GPSDO (Trimble
csteinm...@yandex.com said:
Yes, using TI mode is essential for getting down to the counter's limits.
What's going on there? It's just a divide, right? Is the firmware not smart
enough to do get enough precision?
Do all counters have that problem?
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bro...@pacific.net said:
The click-click-click... is the self winding. A solenoid vibrates back and
forth and a pawl and ratchet winds the main spring.
I don't think that's what I was referring to. It was a long time ago so my
memory may be buggy.
The click-click-click... that I remember
ar...@antamy.com said:
I'll do a bit more digging around and see if I can get the GPIB up and
running in the next couple of weeks.
I've been happy with the ProLogic GPIB-USB gizmo.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/549
It took some fiddling to get going, but I like chasing that sort of
dan-timen...@drown.org said:
I'm experimenting with using a temperature sensor to estimate local
oscillator frequency changes. My goal is to have a decent holdover clock
for a NTP server with not so great GPS antenna placement.
This is for ntpd rather than chrony, but it's a good read:
By the way the z3801 is off most of the year so the drains quite small.
I think that's backwards. The battery is only used when there is no power to
the GPS module.
AAs are roughly 2800 mA hours. There are 8760 hours in a year. That's 319
microamp years. (How's that for a SI unit?) So
kb...@n1k.org said:
The numbers quoted earlier (and they sound right) were 20 uA at 2.5V. That
would be well under your 100uA. My *guess* is that self discharge / aging on
a normal AA is going to limit things faster than a 20 uA drain.
20 uA would last 15 years. (assuming no
It turns out this is what happens if you switch the Output Level from 17
to 23, obviously an advisory indication to draw attention to the higher
output. Switching it back reduces the level, as expected, and returns the
LED function to normal. Phew:-)
I can't remember switching it but
x...@darksmile.net said:
I was planning a similar trip from Astoria Queens, NYC which is sea level,
to Adirondack Mountains, upstate New York.
You will need clocks that are better than Tom's. :)
He parked at 5,000 feet. Do any roads go that high in the Adirondacks? How
high can you park?
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
But you are right, no two clocks will ever agree at that level because they
will experience different gravitational fields.
What if I adjust the elevation (aka gravity) of one of them until it matches?
Or at least gets within the resolution and ADEV of the
stewart.c...@gmail.com said:
Perhaps there is a transmit-only UART coded into the FPGA, or perhaps one of
the UARTs is timeshared with the Lucent message, or perhaps there is another
UART chip hidden somewhere on the board.
There is a UART in the MC68301. Page 51 of the data sheet. (They
bro...@pacific.net said:
UARTs are not mandatory, a simple transistor level shifting circuit is all
that's needed for TTL/RS-232 levels.
I think you are confusing UARTs with level shifters.
In the old days, transistors were expensive enough that a 68000 class CPU was
all that could fit on a
pmo...@gmail.com said:
Let me rephrase what I'm after. The geoidal uncertainty sets a hard limit
on clock comparison performance on the Earth's surface (for widely-spaced
clocks). At some point, as Chris Albertson noted, the clocks will measure
the potential and not the other way around.
The 74F161 is only rated at 90MHz over temp (TI) and 120MHz or 100MHz
(unclear) at 25C and then only as typical without any max freq being
indicated at all in the datasheet (Fairchild).
That's just the count frequency. If you want to divide by 5, you have to do
something like use the
w...@quackers.net said:
Hah, don't we all. I look at the physical connector whenever I'm doing a
layout. I used to be able to see the tiny, virtually invisible numbers that
most of them have molded into the plastic. I can't see them anymore. :) I've
conveniently managed to forget all the
You can program it in my beloved ABEL instead if the dreaded CUPL..
Lattice sells a cheap USB programmer for these.
Are they usable in a non-Windows environment?
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kb...@n1k.org said:
What is going on is that people are confusing the estimation process that is
used by the selection process (which does look at a lot of stuff) and how
that is described. ...
In this context, it's important to remember that there are 2 parameters
associated with the
jg...@zianet.com said:
I want to use it as a standalone reference to PLL a 14.4 MHz VCXO. With the
right divisors, I can get both the 10 MHz (/10/10) and the 14.4 MHz (/16/9)
down to 100 KHz.
You can run at 400 KHz by dividing by 5/5 and 4/9.
I could use a GPSDO, but that means needing a
Said Jackson said:
Correct, and thats why its all a bad trade off if you have to use 50 Ohms
termination. Either more heat or more PN, and more circuitry.
So driving 50 Ohms inputs is not optimal here, 1M inputs are much better for
this purpose.
That only works if you have a (very) short
kb...@n1k.org said:
Maybe Tom needs a Microsoft Windows Update on his GPSDO firmware :) For some
reason the very thought of Microsoft getting involved in something like that
makes me shudderâ¦
For good reason. A friend's scope picked up a virus.
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bow...@gmail.com said:
The problem is that they start in sync and over the course of a day drift
that far apart despite having NTP running. We're not sure why NTP isn't
correcting it along the way. Though at this point, we are looking at a
firmware bug.
I wouldn't think of it as two systems
Suppose I wanted to do an experiment with GPS receivers: Is setup A better
than setup B? But they share some parts, say the antenna, so I can't run
them both at the same time.
How long do I have to collect data for each setup to tell which is better?
Is that even the right question? I'm
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
The satellites are in 12 hour orbits. Everything repeats every 12 hours.
But the sun is on a 24 hr. period and if you did two 12 hour tests you don't
want to do one at night and one in day. So start each test at the same
time of day let it run for 12+ hours.
xe1...@amsat.org said:
I could upload the pictures I took to an image hosting server, showing a
little bit of Mexico's time scale UTC (CNM) and the current work with Cesium
fountain and frequency comb clocks. My apologies beforehand if my offer
could be a little of topic and probably way off
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
I do know those that temperature stabilizes both the concrete pillar and
cable conduct.
I hadn't thought about the support pillar. CTE of concrete is 8-12 PPM/C, so
a 10 C change would be 100 PPM. 10 meters would be 1000 micrometers or 1 mm.
I think
http://m.npr.org/news/Science/162591206
Of course, Nobel Prize winners get about $1.2 million and the winners of the
physics Nobel will split that. At a news conference today in Boulder,
Colorado, Dave Wineland said he has no idea what he will do with the money.
As Boulder's Daily Camera
One does NOT need a dedicated server for NTP. NTP can run on a linux system
that is also a web and mail server or on e linux desktop system that you
use for web surfing and web browse ring, just as long as the box stays
running and you don't turn it off.
It's been discussed before, but
Question: What GPS timing module should I go with? No more Motorola Oncore
so what's best right now? Who sell modules? What are the price ranges?
One option would be just a DE-9 connector with power on pin ??? (I forget).
You may need inverters and/or level shifters on Rx and Tx.
That
kuze...@gmail.com said:
And that's with a $6 navigation GPS thingy (USB puck-type NMEA-only)
Where did you get one for $6? What make/model/brand?
That's navigation... Timing mode only needs 1 satellite lock after all,
and I suspect I will at minimum be able to get needed 1 satellite lock
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
But yu are in luck, iLotus does sell an M12M evaluation kit that is ready to
use http://www.ilotus.com.sg/m12m_uart_evaluation_kit but the price is
higher.
That web page says:
SiRF Oncore(tm) Software
What's the relation between SiRF and i-Lotus?
Anybody
azelio.bori...@screen.it said:
OK, unless you have the coordinates of your antenna position... and here
comes the difficult move: how can I have the coordinates of an indoor
antenna that can't receive the required satellites?
It depends upon how bad your indoor setup is. Mine is poor, not
Does anybody have a favorite low cost timing mode unit? How about
one with minimal soldering required?
kuze...@gmail.com said:
http://www.ankaka.com/usb-gps-receiver-for-computers-laptop-worked-as-gps-nav
igator_p46411.html
AGI-G217 USB GPS Receiver
That web page says:
Uses SiRF Star
kuze...@gmail.com said:
Supposedly, normal serial ports have less trouble with latency than anything
done over USB. I definitely have an annoying 590 (ish) millisecond delay
when using the NMEA driver on my NTP daemon, ...
USB delays and jitter are on the order of 1 ms.
Things like 590 ms
t...@leapsecond.com said:
It doesn't often matter to me if that information resides on personal
servers, or a KO4BB wiki, or as occasional postings to the time-nuts mailing
list. Google does the work of finding it regardless. The key point is that
people take the time to document and share
t...@leapsecond.com said:
BTW, the best time frequency glossary on the web so far is at:
http://tf.nist.gov/general/glossary.htm
There's also an index at:
http://tf.nist.gov/general/enc-index.htm
That's a good example of a point I didn't make last time...
Official sites like NIST
azelio.bori...@screen.it said:
And don't forget those NTP people. BTW, is there an NTP packet exchange
example? That is, what is the typical conversation between an NTP server
and a client?
What are you looking for?
The wikipedia page is a good introduction:
t...@leapsecond.com said:
I should also mention the choice to have John Ackermann host the list (free)
along with all the TAPR mailing lists has proven itself again and again. Few
entities on the web have been this solid for a decade. A couple of times a
year we have trouble with S/N ratio,
li...@rtty.us said:
The gotcha with the DDS is phase truncation. That pretty much trashes the
ADEV.
Thanks.
How should I think about the output of a DDS?
Lets assume I'm interested in the frequency domain where the error is
measured in phase noise. For a DDS, I think they are spurs.
david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk said:
Yes, you send a mail with a new subject. Please don't CHANGE the subject of
a thread or topic, as that doesn't actually start a new topic.
There are two mechanisms for splitting a pile of messages into threads. Some
mail readers sort by the Subject field.
docdai...@gmail.com said:
I guess what I am saying is if I discipline the counter with 10MHz and then
measure the same 10MHz. Just making sure we are on the same page.
The input signal will be at a fixed offset from the reference clock. That
offset will depend on cable lengths.
If that
azelio.bori...@screen.it said:
Very interesting... is it using the binary protocol? Maybe a serial link
error, the binary protocol has a checksum (yes, NMEA too). Check the serial
link levels with a 'scope, maybe that the Z3801 firmware waits to see some
consecutive errors before actually
li...@rtty.us said:
If the firmware is fine tuning something, (like s/n or elevation) that would
explain the first issue. If it's something like s/n where they may be
averaging values, then a single bad packet *could* mess up their averaging
and turn it all off.
What can the firmware do if
jim...@earthlink.net said:
ALl good ideas.. but I was looking more for something a bit more packaged..
like a hockey puck with wires coming out.
Garmin GPS-18x.
The GPS-18x is the newer version. The GPS-18 (no x) is no longer in
production.
There are several versions. Check the fine
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