[Context is cheap VCXO]
When used inside a GPSDO it only has to hold over for one second until the
next correction.
Only if you have a good antenna and/or antenna location.
I have several low cost GPS units located in far-from-ideal locations. They
work most of the time but often fade out
michael.c...@sfr.fr said:
So if you do a multi-byte read to get the lot at once, then it should be
coherent. I saw some code to do this somewhere, but I have lost track of it.
For things like that, I tend to write some test code to sanity check my
understanding. Then I let it run overnight
The above trigger changes combined with reconfiguring for 50ohms input
signal did the trick. I'm now seeing readings like 0.999 999 983 +0.
That's a good way to measure/calibrate the crystal in your 5335A. :)
(Assuming you have a good reference, and GPS is good if you get consistent
bro...@pacific.net said:
I wonder if NIST has one of the GWR gravitymeters on a pier and uses that to
discipline their fountain clocks for the elevation change of the pier or if
that's done for the GPS reference antennas?
Radio astronomers pay serious attention to earth tides. For VLBI, they
rich...@karlquist.com said:
I want to use WWVB because I want to be able to mention to visitors that the
clock links to an ensemble of 5071A cesium standards, and I was one of the
designers of the 5071A, the actual atomic clock. ...
Neat.
What does the Air Force use as a reference for GPS?
Actually, undersampling does use the alias effect to bring down the RF
carrier. That is, the direct sampling radio concept cannot avoid the
aliasing: it is exploited to avoid, for example, to sample a 2GHz carrier
modulated with a 20MHz signal with a 4Gsample/second ADC (by the way, does
it
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
I use the rule of thumb that 1 ns is 3 dm in free air and 2 dm in coax and
fibre
My rule of thumb is that fiber or good coax (foam) slows down by the
conversion from km to miles.
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li...@rtty.us said:
You *could* use transformers or filters to transform to higher impedance,
but they add phase shift. Phase shift is a problem if it changes (over time,
temperature, vibration, phase of the moon...). Change in phase = change in
time = signal is degraded.
Transformers are
What sort of accuracy can I expect from a Loran type system?
I assume the answer is it depends, but I'm looking for the overview type
answer. What does it depend upon? What are the ballpark type answers? What
info should I be providing to get better answers?
I assume it depends upon the
--- Forwarded Messages
Subject: DoD accused of subverting LightSquared plan in 2010 [telecom]
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 18:38:39 -0500
On LightSquared, Defense Department official urged synch up with GPS lobby
By ELIZA KRIGMAN | 3/2/12 9:33 AM EST
A Department of Defense official urged his
mbla...@satx.rr.com said:
I read a white paper Javad put out touting their new (and cheaper to build)
front end filter. Of course it is patented. So guess where everyone has
to go should LS get the green light.
Was that filter included as part of the recent round of testing? Did it
semif...@comcast.net said:
Or if it is all text, the postscript file system is very good, it allows
control of the entire page formatting in preservation of accurate
alignments.
Postscript also does lines and circles and ...
Usually it gets (much) better results with text than you get from
p...@phk.freebsd.dk said:
Hmm... do you mean you want to store all samples of an hour and then
avarage over it?
That would be the ideal way to do it, since it would make one heck of a comb
filter and eliminate pretty much anything else.
That only works if your reference clock is stable
Announcement from CERN:
ICARUS experiment at Gran Sasso laboratory reports new measurement of
neutrino time of flight consistent with the speed of light
http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2011/PR19.11E.html
--
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I've never seen a PLCC UV erasable package. Do they exist?
Yes. We used them many years ago.
They are much more expensive than the write-once plastic packages. For the
chips we were using, it was more than 2x. If you were reasonably sure you
wouldn't need to reprogram them, plastic
It is also the case the DCF77's phase modulation probably isn't as good as
it could be if the goal is to find it in the noise since it only swings +/-
15 degrees rather than +/- 90. Its big advantage might be that it is high
speed, with lots of transitions, so you can probably measure phase
jlt...@att.net said:
I have a friend who is helping me with the effort. He has written some
programs to work with a 3458A and the ProLogix USB/GPIB adapter. I plan to
dissect the programs and modify them to suit my needs. Hopefully, it will
be a learning experience.
We should collect
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
For high speed digital design this is a good starter: http://www.amazon.com/
High-Speed-Digital-Design-Handbook/dp/0133957241/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8qid=13324
91581sr=8-1
You forgot the sub-title:
High Speed Digital Design: A Handbook of Black Magic
I really
act...@hotmail.com said:
Thanks Ed, My Commsync has the LPN clean up oscillator option do you think
that will clean up the sawtooth?
I doubt it. What's the time constant on the PLL?
Do you know about hanging bridges?
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Why do we need really accurate clocks?
Time or frequency?
p...@phk.freebsd.dk said:
Because accurate clocks is the central technology that makes GPS, mobile
phones and the internet work.
What part of the internet depends upon accurate clocks?
Ethernet, for example, requires roughly similar
All that is of course correct. But ultimately the pulsars are a better
source, I see it as an application question, could it be utilized? Perhaps
building an algorithm and basing corrections on multiple pulsars x-ray
pulses like a GPS constellation for the next generation of conventional GPS.
Can someone give me a lay mans explanation of each of the lines of output
from my ntpdc -c kern command please?
You will probably get better answers to NTP specific questions on the NTP
mailing list:
http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
It's gatewayed (both directions) to
jim77...@gmail.com said:
So when a member of the general public says:
Why do we need really accurate clocks?
What is your answer?
Personally I explain that accurate clocks enable you to pack a higher data
rate into your smart phone. They like that.
Any other thoughts?
Navigation? It goes
The sawtooth error on the Motorola M12+ is about +/- 25ns, while the
CW12-TIM has a sawtooth error of +/- 2 ns, so correcting for the
sawtooth error is not as critical with the CW12-TIM.
The first claim
The sawtooth error on the Motorola M12+ is about +/- 25ns
is correct but are you
act...@hotmail.com said:
Forth: The problems I foresee are can an practical algorithm accounting for
the complex motion of all these bodies be built ...
Radio astronomers are pretty good at that sort of calculation. Google for
VLBI.
The key step for VLBI is modeling the exact location of
There really is nothing much to this modification. The Z3801A is already
designed to easily work on either interface, but most units are configured
for RS-422 as the default. It takes perhaps a half-hour to remove a few
zero-ohm SMD resistors and solder in a header strip. The simple
j...@quikus.com said:
It was happenstance that the OPERA connector was mated enough to work, but
not enough to work properly.
A while ago, I was thinking that half the problem was a design error. But
then I couldn't figure out how to do it right. Maybe monitoring the pulse
height would
mar...@ptsyst.com said:
Iâve seen that the peak to peak jitter is reduced from something like 27 ns
to 10 ns.
Is this a reduction of just the jitter, or is the actual accuracy to UTC
also improved by this amount.
Have you read the hanging-bridges paper?
Tom Clark and Rick Hambly:
robert8...@yahoo.co.uk said:
Have a look in The Art of Electronics by Horrowitz Hill (if you don't
hav a copy, you should! or try the local libary). It has a nice circuit for
this (Actually a telescope drive IIRC) type of application.
Rats. I can't find my copy.
I think the trick is that
c...@omen.com said:
Presumably a timing antenna would block low elevation signals to reduce
multipath.
Maybe, but there is a software aspect to the filter. You get to select the
elevation angle.
I don't remember seeing any specs about the filtering angles of various
antennas. Has anybody
shali...@gmail.com said:
I got it with a red box Thunderbolt I bought from a lit member a long time
ago. It has some obvious signs of experience being outside. It is possible
that moisture got inside. Maybe I should try to take it apart? Not sure how
to open it without breaking the radome.
My guess on the original question is that keeping the CPU busy puts junk into
the cache so the whole interrupt processing path takes every possible cache
miss. NTP doesn't care how fast that code is as long as it's consistent.
(Of course, you probably get a different answer, but we are
Just the T and a DC block. 1/4 wave at 60 kHz is far, far longer than any
cable you have.
This is time-nuts. Somebody is likely to do something most of us would
consider, well, nutty.
It's probably reasonable to make a lumped-circuit approximation of a long
transmission line at 60 KHz or
li...@medesign.ro said:
GPS being extremely time-dependent, any delay introduced will affect
positioning precision.
I think you will just get the position of the receiving antenna for the
repeater. It will get the time when the signals arrived at that antenna.
Consider what happens if you
hmur...@megapathdsl.net said:
I think you will just get the position of the receiving antenna for the
repeater. It will get the time when the signals arrived at that antenna.
Consider what happens if you replace the air between the repeater's transmit
antenna and the GPS receiver with a
mp...@clanbaker.org said:
Some time ago I queried the list for info on how to connect and steer an
LPRO-101 Rb oscillator with a T-bolt. Now that I am ready to start on
that project I can't find the responses I got from the list.
All the list traffic is archived.
Google indexes it so
What's the quality of those chinese scopes?
http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-January/061925.html
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j...@quikus.com said:
Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user
friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a
10,000+ character alphabet?
How much of that is because you want to use fancy features that didn't even
exist on older
I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog
'scope is not good enough for what you really do in your lab?
Older 'scopes didn't NEED to re-allocate memory, or use peak modes to
avoid sampling artifacts.
I can think of 3 reasons why I like digital scopes:
To bring this full circle, a friend bought a very clean, working 465 for $50
at MIT.
Did that include probes? :)
Good probes are probably worth more than that even without the scope.
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and...@carrierdetect.com said:
So, I have a Motorola M12+ GPS receiver in a Synergy Systems adapter board,
and one of those little Symtrik MSF receiver boards. I'd like to try and get
both working under Linux with ntpd (not at the same time!), and was hoping
that someone might be able to
wa6...@comcast.net said:
I have been using a surplus Thunderbolt for about six months, and it seemed to
be working fine. In January 2012, a message came up in yellow, (LEAP
PENDING!), I don't know what this means, but since it didn't go away on Feb
28,
must not be leap year related.
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
2) The IDE is written in Java and is portable. It is truly identical on all
platforms. Yes it uses gcc but the end user never has to deal with gcc or
even know what gcc is. Same with saving your code, hit just puts it some
place and keeps track of it
Do I
Fun talk at the USGS last (Thur) night:
ShakeAlert!
--building an earthquake early warning system for California
by Doug Given
He's a good speaker. If you get a chance to hear him, go for it.
http://online.wr.usgs.gov/calendar/
The video should be up in their archives in a few days.
The quake talk was not on line so I watched the one on Climate Change and
it's impact on N. California. Interesting, but no human impact data, only
wildlife.
It's up now.
http://online.wr.usgs.gov/calendar/2012/apr12.html
For a good time sink, my favorite talk was March 2011:
kenkub...@hotmail.com said:
Hi Time-Nuts guys, I was reading the Trimble Thunderbolt manual section
2.1.3 (Antenna Cable). Trimble recommends using RG-59 cable which is 75 ohm
coax. Is this a typo or is this correct? I thought that the Trimble
Thunderbolt would use a 50 ohm cable and
t...@leapsecond.com said:
Related to that, are there any seismometer experts on the list? I've always
wondered why they don't augment the extremely sensitive detectors with less
sensitive detectors? Of course a really good detector will overload; so just
co-locate cheap detectors that are 40
francesco.messi...@gmail.com said:
I just powered on again my trimble thunderbolt after some time without
antenna. All alarms are green but the obvious leap second pending. BUT: I
can't use UTC time as both tboltmon and lady heather display a No UTC
offset message. I don't remember having
p...@phk.freebsd.dk said:
If you cannot apply the negative sawtooth, you will get better results by
disciplining almost any random quartz xtal, ovenized or not to the GPS,
divide it down to PPS and then discipline the PRS10 to that.
I don't understand that. What am I missing?
In the simple
j...@quikus.com said:
Suppose you have a perfect, ideal clock that puts out 'convert' pulses at an
exact rate is used to strobe a high precision A/D.
Now suppose you add jitter to that perfect clock so that the rate stays the
same but time interval between successive pulses varies randomly
c...@employees.org said:
one more thing, people need to learn to hit the delete key if they don't
like a particular email. get over it.
I don't think that's a reasonable approach. Yes, of course, we should all be
more tolerant. But that's only half the story.
There is an interesting
jim...@earthlink.net said:
I wonder if the nature of email and how it gets read has any effect on
usenet lists.
Think back to expensive dialup days.. you'd dial up, download the batch,
and then hangup. So you'd go through all the mail (almost like a digest)
before responding.
I think
j...@jwsss.com said:
At least let someone claim that this affects climate change before you
condemn it or make a comment like this.
On 5/7/2012 6:38 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
Yea NIST and JILA keep pushing pseudo science, and they keep on recieveing
the Noble Prize in Physics for these ideas.
was Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Faster than light of a different type
(Probably my fault.)
act...@hotmail.com said:
What I found funny was that the Audiophlie and light thread drew such
attacks when it hit home to me as exactly what the Time-Nuts mission is
about. The Audio thread touched on
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
I've alway have thought that if nanosecond level jitter is bad then
breathing while listening must be really bad. If you inhale the path length
from your ear to the speaker changes at the microsecond level.
You'd think the resulting doppler shift would drive
Are there any real audio systems with sinusoidal jitter. I'd goes that
it would all be random. I can see where I could build a system with
that defect if I wanted to but are there any systems on the market like
this?
I could easily imagine jitter with a significant sinusoidal
d...@irtelemetrics.com said:
One interesting note however. Years ago we had a standard old 4040 ripple
counter in our shop that displayed a low occurrence of jitter of several
times it's input frequency period at it's lowest frequency output (Sort of
what you are describing below). I wish
Why in the hell would anybody build a 50 channel receiver? At most you
MIGHT see 12 usable GPS sats... I don't think that I've seen over 10. WAAS
should be fairly useless for a timing receiver.
I can think of a couple of reasons. I'm sure there are more.
One would be marketing type
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
I had the same problem with a GPS antenna at work. Somebody had put the
manufactures label over the porus plug that should have vented out any
water... but it didn't so I had too high water-level inside the antenna.
How does water get in?
I'm not doubting
k3...@aol.com said:
If you can keep the boards in a vertical mount position, and they have been
sprayed with a conformal coating, the heat from the components and the
coating will keep any moisture from forming on the boards in a vertical
position. We do this in several products we supply
hol...@hotmail.com said:
Then at the half way point, something strange happened...
I've seen quite a few GPS receivers do strange things. My straw man is
software bugs under poor signal conditions that don't get tested much.
Another possibility would be a glitch on the power rail(s). It's
saidj...@aol.com said:
Also, the Thunderbolt has less than 5 Ohms output impedance, so you get a
reflection going back from the 50 Ohms end-termination anyway because the
impedance is mismatched!
I think that's a different problem.
If the far end termination matches the cable there won't
rich...@karlquist.com said:
FWIW, the E1938A oscillator control board had a happy light LED that
flashed 1 time per second, and sure enough this corrupted the power supply
and affected some applications. We added a command to turn it off.
Why should lights blink when they are happy?
Your
t...@leapsecond.com said:
If this is for a computer and NTP then you may ignore the sawtooth.
GPS receiver sawtooth corrections are for people working at the nanosecond
level; important when you're working with disciplining quartz or rubidium
oscillators with stability at the 1e-12 level.
It wasn't hard to find the right people at the Open House.
GPS is interesting for big quakes.
Most seismometers measure acceleration. It's a double integration to get
displacement which is what they are used to working with. Big quakes last
longer which leads normal seismometers to get into
i...@blackmountainforge.com said:
They also use GPS units for tectonic shift. Put a unit on each plate and
measure the difference between them. When it gets to be a large enough
number, something, somewhere will slip and you will have a quake.
Yes, but that's the DC term.
The
bdsy...@yahoo.com said:
I would not recommend building up a computer with numerous serial cards, as
this solution is not as flexible.
One advantage of serial cards is much better timing.
It's also one less box that has to be working in order to get data.
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ed_pal...@sasktel.net said:
I've played with a Lantronix single port server and a Digi 16 port server
with no problems for simple COM port emulation. But I wonder if they would
work well with an NTP server. Has anyone tested that? Is the network
delay a problem due to either amount of
li...@rtty.us said:
I'd bet at least a cold order of french fries that you would be below 1 ms
on a modern home wired LAN. Certainly everything I ping locally is sub 1 ms
unless wireless is involved.
The delay doesn't matter much. You can correct for it. I can measure sub ms
even over a
att...@kinali.ch said:
On an ethernet it looks quite different:
[snip lots of low jitter samples]
Network is a destkop - switch1 - switch2 - ntp box.
The switches are two Level1 Gbit smart switches. The desktop is a ~4y old
Xeon 2GHz system with a Gbit interface The ntp box is a AMD Geode
ei6iz.bren...@gmail.com said:
Anyone tinkered with measuring GPSd, NTPd and network delay tomography?
No, but as the network admin for a reasonably large network, much of it
wireless I'd like to explore this
If you turn on rawstats in ntp.conf, it will collect the data for you.
After
t...@leapsecond.com said:
http://www.ausairpower.net/Block-IIR-M-SV-1S.jpg
What is the significance of the pointy tops of the long skinny antennas?
How about the collars at the base of them?
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___
Does window glass have significant attenuation at GPS L1?
What if it's a big window on a modern green office building and has some sort
of coating/content to reduce IR transmission?
Google found an (expensive) paper from IEEE where the abstract said:
At average, about 30 dB attenuation is
li...@lazygranch.com said:
Pay-walls on technical journals have to go. The IEEE doesn't pay the author
for the article. They used to make the author pay a small fee. Anyway, the
exorbitant fees of technical journals discourages cross-discipline research.
You can't be a member of every one of
* Connect all free pins of the FPGA to a 2.54mm header pin connector
Don't go overboard on the all if that makes a mess of the routing or layout.
Be sure to put enough ground pins on the header(s). Power too.
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albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
But you know what? If you simply place an automotive puck type GPS
antenna on your roof you have to do the same thing. It must be grounded the
same way, same lightening protection and so on. So in the end you may as
well put up a professional looking and
I recently connected up a USB GPS to my Linux box and found it quite easy to
get NTP to up from the GPS. I was hoping to get the same GPS to update the
Mac running Lion 10.7.4, however, it has been a very frustrating uphill
battle.
Has anybody managed to get GPS NTP update working on OS-X?
Do they grant the right, or do people just get away with it?
We used to get away with it by publishing an in-house research report that
was a preliminary version of what turned into the paper. That was many years
ago, before the web. We actually printed hard copies. We had good in-house
enge...@alumni.ethz.ch said:
Building the best DCF77 receiver in the world :-)
You have found the right place. :)
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namic...@gmail.com said:
I have been trying to set up a clock on sidereal time. My only source of a
time calculator is tycho.usno.navy.mil, but this seems to be off the air
for the last week or more. Is there any other source of sidereal time? The
basic method needs a current almanac and I
I had a power glitch last night. It shows up as a step on the 60 Hz
clock-drift graph. That reminded me that I had another glitch a few weeks
ago.
16 seconds:
http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/60Hz/60Hz-2012-Jun-20-gap.png
0.1 second:
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk said:
Does the glitch mean you had a 16-second outage or what? I'm not clear.
Yes.
For the previous year or so, my local power has been very good. I've seen
occasional off-by-one counts in both directions but nothing more interesting
than that.
I haven't
t...@leapsecond.com said:
I'm very south of the equator on a family vacation right now, away from my
lab, remote enough to miss the upcoming leap second. But here's a photo of
a sundial I made with driftwood and shell markers every 5 minutes.
Speaking of sundials, here is a neat one:
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk said:
Thanks for that, Hal. I would set up some monitoring myself except that I
don't have a UPS so even a 16-second outage would not be recorded. Could
use a portable PC, I suppose... We have perhaps one outage every two years
on average, and they last for at
Everybody ready for the big event? :)
For those of you who weren't here for the last one (or have forgotten)...
Markus Kuhn as a nice program that records what happens to your computer's
clock over the leap second.
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/time/leap/test/timelog.c
I'm in California,
j...@jwsss.com said:
I've got a note set for 6/29/2012 @ 5pm PST. Hopefully that is the right
time.
I think you are a day early. If not, I'm setting up to be a day late. (and
I hope somebody will say something)
That's Friday, the 29th. The leap second doesn't happen until Sat, 30th.
I
bill...@bellsouth.net said:
Does the leapsecond get added just once (GMT time zone) or does it happen
in a staggered fashion at the same hh:mm:ss within each timezone?
The leap second gets added to UTC.
I don't know how Windows works, but most Linux/Unix systems keep track of
time in UTC
I seem to remember someone from NPL telling me that they actually increment
the each of the last 10 seconds before the epoch by 100mS, rather than
putting in one whole second.
Google has hacked their internal NTP servers to spread the extra second over
several hours. That's slow enough so
56108 86396.034 32 scpi T22012063023595730+0041
56108 86397.034 32 scpi T22012063023595830+0042
56108 86398.036 32 scpi T22012063023595930+0043
56108 86399.036 32 scpi T22012063023596030+003B ===
56108 86399.034 32 scpi T2201207010030+0021 ===
56109 0.037 32 scpi
One thing I described is how if the user messed up and didn't disable
serial echo as described in the manual, the GPSTCXO could get so confused
that it would reboot
It's worth keeping that echo mess in mind. I spent way too much time chasing
one the other day.
For each of my toys with a
I think a number of higher-end sound cards accept a word clock or world
clock (I've seen it both ways) that's intended to allow syncing to an
external source. The challenge I've seen is that the frequency (either in
the 12 or 24 MHz range) is one that's not simple to synthesize precisely
azelio.bori...@screen.it said:
[couple some 1-pps energy into the signal being digitized]
Yes, very smart, this analog time-stamping approach.
There is another trick you can use in this area.
If you can watch a PPS signal, you can figure out the frequency of the clock
used by the A/D system.
mp...@clanbaker.org said:
Eventually, I tried putting it in a large picnic sized Styrofoam container.
This worked much better. The inside temperature did go up, but not so
much as to be a problem. At some point the size of the container provided
enough heat loss so as not to overheat the
saidj...@aol.com said:
We deal with big fans all the time, viz. Turboprop engines running at up to
2000rpm. Generates nasty massive spurs below 100hz.
2000 / 60 is 33.333 Hz
One man's noise is another man's signal. (Or something like that. I think I
picked it up here, ages ago.)
How hard
d...@dieconsulting.com said:
There are innumerable applications for low cost low power human level 1
second accurate time of day in modern electronic systems - examples are
traffic lights and school crossing signs and water sprinklers and street
lights and other outdoor lighting and many
As long as you don't have sunset or sunrise between you and the transmitter,
WWVB is reasonably stable. At night you will get more signal, but also can
have some skywave stuff in the mix.
One man's noise is another man's signal.
The NIST coverage maps vary widely from night to day. I
cq.k...@gmail.com said:
I do not want to spend good money on another oscillicope if I can help it,
but I do want to see, or at least be remotely aware of clock slips/walks
and other anomalies. I am thinking about building an embedded system to
automate monitoring, configuration, and
(From a month ago.)
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
Take my word for it, the T-Bolt is not able to drive a 100 foot long twisted
pair cable
I don't think that's quite the right way to phrase it.
What type of twisted pair were you using and/or what sort of setup did you
try? How well did
albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
Hysteresis does nothing to eliminate jitter or temperature
Maybe, but it is absolutely needed if there is any noise on the signal. A
perfect comparator with zero hysteresis would dither on every zero crossing.
Hysteresis doesn't eliminate the dither from
squir...@gmail.com said:
While i am on, can anyone suggest a reasonably priced unit that has a 1pps
output, NMEA and a built in antenna. Because I want to use this with an 8
bit embedded system I am probably not going to be able to hack one of the
many cheap USB dongle GPS's.
Garmin GPS
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