Re: [time-nuts] Another LORSTA mast bites the dust...

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

And with it, any chance of E-Loran in this part of the world.



2017-10-04 16:08 GMT+02:00 Poul-Henning Kamp <p...@phk.freebsd.dk>:

> LORSTA Jan Mayen this time:
>
> http://jan.mayen.no/nyheter/loran-c-masten-gar-ned/
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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[time-nuts] TEMEX / Spectracom EC2S GPS 10MHz clock

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

Hello.
I have some TEMEX (now Spectracom) EC2S GPS references that I'm looking for
service info on.

The common occurence is that the receiver does not lock the 10MHz to the
GPS. as far as I can determine there is no adjustments on the PCB, and the
voltages are close to what I guess are correct (-10V, 5V, 3.12V).

If anyone have any idea on where to get service info on this receiver, it
would be most helpfull.

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Re: [time-nuts] Noise contribution of PLL on measuring phase noise

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

Thank you Bob.

I was thinking of the contribution outside the loop, as for most part my
PLL loops are around 1Hz and resolving closer than 10Hz isn't easy with a
analyzer that stops at 10Hz.

I guess what I'm asking is: should I take any care in the unity gain
buffers or would any normal garden variety op-amp work?
Wentzel used the 310 in his buffers, and those are a bit special, being a
bipolar amp with 2nA input bias current.


BR.
Thomas



2017-06-28 18:08 GMT+02:00 Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org>:

> Hi
>
> Ok, let’s back up a bit:
>
> There are two basic regions when measuring a phase locked oscillator. You
> can be “inside” the loop bandwidth or “outside”. Yes it’s a bit more
> complex
> than that, but go with the idea for now. Inside the bandwidth, everything
> about
> the PLL can / may matter. It can and often does contribute noise to the
> result.
> That noise might be from the detector, a divider, or even the loop
> amplifier. Outside
> the loop bandwidth you just see the oscillator phase noise. (There is a
> third region
> in-between the two where things get even more messy).
>
> Based on that, you will see some noise from the loop amplifier. Exactly
> how much
> (is it 0.001 db?) or how far out will always be a “that depends” sort of
> thing. Without
> measurement (and possibly modeling) there is no single answer to the
> question. There
> are many noise sources in any phase noise setup so this issue is hardly
> unique to the
> loop amp.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:29 AM, Thomas S. Knutsen <la3...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi.
> >
> > When measuring Phase Noise using PLL, what noise would be contribuded
> from
> > the PLL into the amplifier?
> > Lets say we disconnect the control voltage from the oscillator, shouldn't
> > the input stage of the PLL contribute some, altough miniscule part to the
> > total noise seen?
> > Would this noise be masked by the noise from the phase detector?
> >
> >
> > The reason for asking is that I'm trying to improve my PN measurement
> > setup.
> > Currently the PLL consist of a unity gain buffer made of TL072 before the
> > PLL filter, not unlike what Wentzel did in his amplifier. The PLL filter
> is
> > a low noise op-amp (OP27).
> >
> > BR.
> > Thomas.
> >
> > --
> > With Best regards, Thomas S. Knutsen.
> >
> > Please  avoid sending  me  Word  or  PowerPoint  attachments.
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[time-nuts] Noise contribution of PLL on measuring phase noise

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

Hi.

When measuring Phase Noise using PLL, what noise would be contribuded from
the PLL into the amplifier?
Lets say we disconnect the control voltage from the oscillator, shouldn't
the input stage of the PLL contribute some, altough miniscule part to the
total noise seen?
Would this noise be masked by the noise from the phase detector?


The reason for asking is that I'm trying to improve my PN measurement
setup.
Currently the PLL consist of a unity gain buffer made of TL072 before the
PLL filter, not unlike what Wentzel did in his amplifier. The PLL filter is
a low noise op-amp (OP27).

BR.
Thomas.

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Re: [time-nuts] Loran-C Norway/France/Germany shutdown

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

FWIW, Loran-C at Jan-Mayen was shut down at 1200NT (1100UTC).
Info from: http://jan.mayen.no/nyheter/en-aera-er-forbi/

I will check with a friend at Bø station on monday regarding the rest of
the norwegian stations.

BR.
Thomas.

2016-01-01 3:16 GMT+01:00 GandalfG8--- via time-nuts :

>
> Looks like Sylt went off-air in addition to the Norway and France stations.
> Perhaps it is not a permanent decommissioning.
>
> 
>
> It might just be coincidence, but at around 0145 on Jan 1st the  Sylt web
> site link on the Loran-C Europe web site was reporting a 404 not found
> error:-(
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] End of Loran-C in Europe confirmed.

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

>From what I understand there have been some strongly worded letters from
the russian goverment to the norwegian with regards to the shutdown of Bø
chain (Jan Mayen, Bø in Vesterålen and Berlevåg) all in Norway.
The russians dont seems to happy with the loss of LORAN, specialy when
aurora borealis makes satelite based navigation next to useless.

The stations in Norway have been due to shutdowns before, probably in 2007
or 2008, but then several of the other countries intervened.

In my opinion, they are giving away navigational security for dimes. Try
using a sixtant when the sun don't go above the horizon for several months
in the wintertime.

Poul-Henning: I can confirm that Russian Chayka station is still on the air.

BR.
Thomas.

2015-12-17 16:26 GMT+01:00 Poul-Henning Kamp :

> 
> In message <5672a8ed.1010...@g7iii.net>, Iain Young writes:
>
> >The UK is (supposedly) supportive of eLORAN,
>
> Yeah, but you need 3 transmitters and if norway and france
> closes there is *at best* Anthorn and Sylt left.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Re: [time-nuts] Minicircuits specs

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

2014-11-29 16:24 GMT+01:00 Dave M dgmin...@mediacombb.net:



 Yeah, that's a good way to completely avoid the issue.  Since I'm the only
 target audience for my efforts, then I don't mind the extra components.
 I'm beginning to realize, as I get deeper into building my own stuff, that
 a VNA is quite a desireable piece of equipment.  Unfortunately, I'll have
 to make use of my spectrum analyzer and RLC meters instead.


Going a bit off topic, but there are decent VNA's avaible for an fair
price. There is the N2PK VNA thats avaible as an board + digikey partlist
and gives a 120dB dynamic range VNA from 10KHz to 50MHz, or there are the
VNWA avaible ready buildt from the UK with 70-80dB dynamic range to 1.3GHz.
Those are the ones I know that have true phase reading and can solve for
the sign of the phase.

Of course there are older HP or RS boxes, and probably others as well, and
by shopping around one can get decent gear at a fair price, but with some
added complexity of doing the measurments.
Having an VNA helps doing measurments, but a lot of cool things can be done
with a spectrum analyzer, adding a simple return loss bridge makes that
into an quite decent scalar VNA.

Brr. (its probably cold up here in the north :)
Thomas LA3PNA.


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Re: [time-nuts] Si5351A

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

John Miles did the phase noise measurments, they are avaible here:
http://nt7s.com/2014/11/si5351a-investigations-part-7/


BR
Thomas.


2014-11-11 21:49 GMT+01:00 Joseph Gray jg...@zianet.com:

 Some of you have probably already heard of this new clock generator chip
 from Si. News of a board with this chip from Adafruit just came up on a
 local Amateur list today. A quick Google shows that some folks have used
 this chip in homebrew SSB rigs.

 My concern would be that when this chip generated frequencies that required
 non-integer PLL ratios, that the jitter would be unacceptable for SSB use,
 and even worse for CW.

 As for the Adafruit board, they are using a crystal spec'ed for 30ppm
 accuracy and stability. Not something I'd want to use in a radio. Perhaps
 the C version of the chip, fed by a TCXO.

 What do you think about the jitter issue?

 Joe Gray
 W5JG
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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite module

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

The potatochips are quite excelent high speed devices, and by selling them
on e-bay, they make it avaible to us who are not able to go through the
normal supplier chains.

Br.
Thomas.

2014-10-19 2:48 GMT+02:00 Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net:

 This looks pretty interesting:
 74G series PO74G74

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/330551715157?_trksid=p2060778.
 m1438.l2649ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_411wt_664

 600+ MHz cmos 3.5 volt

 Tom


 - Original Message - From: S. Jackson via time-nuts 
 time-nuts@febo.com
 To: kc0...@gmail.com; time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 5:40 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite module



  Dave, et.al.,

 upon popular request I put together a PDF of my email describing how I
 generated a low-phase-noise 10MHz output from the CMOS 20MHz output of the
 LTE-Lite GPSDO. Here it is.

 No guarantees whatsoever guys, and it does take good equipment, a very
 steady hand, and a lot of experience to put this together and make it work
 properly.

 This design can work up to 145MHz according to the 74LVX74 datasheet if
 powered at 3.3V.

 bye,
 Said


 In a message dated 10/18/2014 14:09:54 Pacific Daylight Time,
 kc0...@gmail.com writes:

 Hi,  Said.

 I would be interested in having a copy of your app-note, if  that is
 possible. I'd like to purchase one of the GPSDOs, but will need to  wait
 for amonth or so.

 Thanks.

 Cheers,
 DaveD

 On  10/18/2014 12:19 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

 Hi  guys,

 lots of questions, let me try to answer  some of these. Bob, David, et.

 al,

 thanks for answering some of these  already!

 Dave, as Bob said it depends on your  application -- and your time

 frame.

 Also, please check the FAQ for an  answer on the external TCXO

 requirement,

 specifically item 35. in the  FAQ on the Ebay website for the product.

 Jim, I  ended up doing the appnote in email format, and sending out a
  description, schematics, PN plot, and photos yesterday, please check

 your

 emails. I won't do a formal appnote, sorry no time.. I hope the

 description of

 what I wired-up yesterday is good enough for folks to  try the same.

 Ernie, as mentioned here the price  is $185 plus shipping on Ebay for the
 entire kit. Shipping is  calculated by Ebay, and should be a flat-rate

 of $10

 in the  continental US

 Hal, MY BAD!! I should have known  better and super-imposed both the
 original 20MHz and 10MHz plots on  the same plot. I will do so shortly.

 On the

 table in the plot: the  TimePod tries to determine spurs, and display

 them  on

 the upper  right hand of the plot in a table, and with the phase noise

 being

 as  clean as it is I guess the TimePod software could only find two
 spurs,
  one at  0.8 and one at 0.9Hz offset from carrier, which was not even

 shown in

 that plot  since it starts at 1Hz.

 Thanks so much for your feedback, lively discussion, and good  questions
 guys.

 I hope that answers all  questions,
 bye,
  Said






 
 



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Re: [time-nuts] VNA design

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

The design of an VNA is an interesting thing. It requires quite high focus
on good RF practices and screening.

In the range 0-3GHz there is no low cost devices avaible, not counting the
copper mountain tech boxes ( http://www.coppermountaintech.com/ ). Up to
1.3GHz there is the DG8SAQ VNWA avaible from sdrkits, these can also be
used with mixers to extend the max frequency. The VNWA is an 2 detector VNA
that needs an S-parameter testset in order to get all the 4 S-parameters.

An homebrew alternative would be fun to do, but its a lot of work, both in
getting reproduceable data from the hardware and in programming. Building
somthing that is connected to the PC simplifies things a lot.
Couplers and detectors are not the hardest thing to make, some small SMD
resistors, an balanced amplifier - detector and things should work to 6GHz
or higher with some care in the layout.
Signal generation is perhaps the hardest part, there is AFAIK no single
solution working from LF to high UHF, one cool alternative is to build an
generator with an YIG and mixing down, but that requires a lot of work to
get stable over the range 0-3GHz. In addition you need to keep the signal
from the generator out of the detector in order to keep the dynamic range
high.
If you are building your own VNA, I would build it with 4 detectors and the
posibility to re-configure those. It opens for several of the more advanced
calibration methods and eliminates some of the errors in the VNA.

If I were to build something, I think I would base it on the N2PK design,
as there is documentation and programs avaible that makes for some part of
the work.

There are some IC's avaible that do the detection of the power levels,
AD8302 comes to mind, the common denominator for these are that they don't
solve for the phase sign, and thereby are not true vector. In addition,
those I have tested don't behave to well with

As an alternative, the HP8410 series are avaible here in the EU, sometimes
quite cheap, if you can wait a bit. Mine is mostly used at microwaves, with
some external mixers and testsets. If you are low on cash, this may be the
best approach, but it requires some work.

The accuracy of the VNA is determined by the calkit used to calibrate it.
There is no way around obtaining an good calkit, learning how to use it
without destroying it, and do repeatable calibrations. The calkit is the
single most important part of the VNA. Do use an calkit for the connectors
you are going to measure, don't add adaptors or worse, coaxial cable after
the calibration plane.

The book by Joel Dunsmore is excelent, highly reccomended if you are doing
or interested in VNA measurments.

BR.
Thomas.




2014-06-02 16:43 GMT+02:00 Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch:

 Hi,

 I know this is not exactly a time-nut question, but i guess this is
 the best place i know to ask about this stuff.

 I recently got introduced into the usefullness of a VNA. But these
 things are horribly expensive for home use, even if bought from ebay
 (before you say anything, remember i live in europe, where every
 boat anchor hast to travel a long way). But given that most of the
 designs that are on ebay are from the 80s and early 90s, i thought that
 with todays ICs it should be easy to come up with a design that does
 the same thing but can be build on a kitchen table.

 Well, my problem now is, that i don't know how to build a VNA.
 Yes, i understand the basic principle. I can come up with a design
 that should work. But i have no clue about any problems or difficulties
 in building these devices. Ie it's very likely that i fall into a dozen
 traps when i try to build one.

 I tried to get information on how to build a VNA, or what kind of trouble
 people had operating one, but beside the VNA book[1] Rick mentioned a
 couple
 of months ago and ko4bb's site (thanks man! your manual collection is a
 gold
 mine!), my searches came out blank. As i'm quite sure that there is
 information of that kind out there, i would like to ask whether someone
 could point me to some documents, webpages, books, papers, etc that would
 show me the detailed design of VNA, the problems people had with some
 designs or anything else that would be of interest in such an endavor.


 Also, any good resource on how to build a directional coupler that
 does 10-3000MHz without going to exotic materials would be much
 appreciated. All papers i found deal mostly with stuff above 5GHz.
 Seems like low frequency couplers are considered a solved problem.


 Attila Kinali

 [1] Handbook of Microwave Component Measurements: with Advanced VNA
 Techniques
 by Dunsmore, 2012

 --
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 up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
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 -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin
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Re: [time-nuts] Locked onto LORAN 8970 GRI Monday AM

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

There seems to be someone thinking that all LORAN-C stations are shut down,
and this is not correct.
I know first hand from the Eidi and Bø chain, that both are drifted by
their host nations, as this responcibility was transfered to them from the
USCG in 1995. I beleve most on foregin soil are drifted by their host
nations.

There is an interest in keeping the LORAN-C chains Eidi and Bø, as they
give good coverage in the Barents sea. The current agreement keeps the
chains in operation to 2018.

BR.
Thomas.


2013/2/5 Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com

 Has anyone thought to ask them what their intentions are?

 It would seem to me that if they are interested in re-activating
 enough of the old LORAN-C network to provide time service that they
 might want to talk to folks that used to rely on LORAN-C for time
 service...

 -Chuck Harris


 Stan, W1LE wrote:

 After 11:20 hours still tracking and locked to LORAN.
 Frequency offset compared to my T'Bolt GPS/DO is -2.5E12.

 Stan W1LE   Cape Cod


 On 2/4/2013 8:56 PM, paul swed wrote:

 We can only dream. But will take what I can get for as long as I can get
 it. It sure in the heck kicks wwvb's capabilities.
 Regards
 Paul

 On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 6:20 PM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:

  Great. Now if the transmissions continue and the format doesn't change!

 -John

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Re: [time-nuts] GPIB, Proloigix, cables

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

What you can do, is to have the program know the addresses and status code
of the items on the bus, then do an serial poll to get the status of each
item on the bus.
It wont work on all items, but it should be possible to avoid problems like
the one you describe and instrument not turned on.
In addition, you could  have several like instruments with different
adresses, and let the program just choose the one thats turned on.

Br.
Thomas.


2013/1/27 Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net

 Connectivity to the prologix from host isn't the problem.The challenge
 is on the gpib side. It was almost working, so I was wondering if there was
 a systematic way to test.  Maybe getting a second prologix to serve as an
 instrument emulator?  Cheap if it saves hours debugging a rack full of gear.

 Actually.  I've been thinking about going to a prologix per instrument
 model.  Then it's just an ip address per instrument

 On Jan 27, 2013, at 8:33, Prologix supp...@prologix.biz wrote:

  Hi Jim,
 
  We recommend starting with the procedure described in the FAQ to verify
  connectivity:
  http://prologix.biz/gpib-ethernet-1.2-faq.html
 
  Regards,
  Abdul
 
  -Original Message-
  From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
  Behalf Of Jim Lux
  Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 8:16 AM
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
  Subject: [time-nuts] GPIB, Proloigix, cables
 
  I spent a couple frustrating hours debugging a test setup with
 programmable
  power supplies and counters (to make automated measurements of
 freq/Vtune on
  some VCOs, as well as Vsupply pushing)
 
  I'm using something hacked from the sample Python code  and the Prologix
  Ethernet device (which has been wonderful for the past few years), but
 this
  time it was a positive ordeal.  I would get timeouts and error messages
 back
  from the devices.
 
  Turns out that I had one bad cable and one with a little piece of paper
 that
  had gotten into the connector when mating it.
 
  So is there some sort of systematic test scheme using the Prologix
 that
  can be used to check out a setup?  Or using John Miles's Prologix
  Configurator to exercise it.
 
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Re: [time-nuts] matlab, python, etc.

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

An semester or two with linear algebra is an good start, but the homepage
of matlab have an excelent learning section.

No experience with Octave yet.

MIT OCW (open courseware) have lectures on linear algebra, in addition to
most of the other courses offered at MIT.

BR.
Thomas.


2013/1/7 Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch

 On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 06:40:12 -0800
 Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote:

  There's a whole lot of stuff that time-nuts do in terms of data analysis
  that is pretty quick and easy in Matlab (or Octave), especially for
  fooling around.  I'm not wild about Matlab's data acquisition
  capabilities, but then, I'm less wild about LabView (because under it
  all, I'm a edit the text file, compile and run kind of guy).

 Apropos: Any good recomendation for a book/website/or similar to learn
 matlab/octave?

 Attila Kinali

 --
 The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved
 up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump
 them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap
 -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin

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Re: [time-nuts] 57600 baud rate with Basic???

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

This week it may be Visual Studio, avaible from:
http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/eng/products/visual-studio-express-products

73 de Thomas

2012/10/9 Bob Camp li...@rtty.us

 Hi

 I'm not sure I'd call it Basic, but Microsoft has VB Express (or what ever
 they call it this week) for free if you are running Windows.

 Bob

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
 Behalf Of paul swed
 Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 4:10 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 57600 baud rate with Basic???

 Looked at powerbasic and yes it supports the higher rates.
 Various pricing models up to $200 and $50 for a paperback manual.
 It looks pretty interesting.
 But at least liberty basic is free up to a level that for most timenuts
 would be enough.
 I have no favorites actually.
 Regards
 Paul

 On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Alan Melia alan.me...@btinternet.com
 wrote:

  Dinosaurs ruled the world for millions of years, and morphed into
 creatures
  that ruled the air until very recently .bit longer than dotcomms
  ...They were very successfull :-))
  Alan
  G3NYK
 
  - Original Message - From: shali...@gmail.com
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
  time-nuts@febo.com
  Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 7:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 57600 baud rate with Basic???
 
 
   I am pretty sure good old Visual Basic Pro version 6.0 (and newer)
  supports
  to 115kb.
 
  GW Basic officially makes you a ...
 
 
  Didier KO4BB
 
  Sent from my Droid Razr 4G LTE wireless tracker.
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: cdel...@juno.com
  To: time-nuts@febo.com
  Sent: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 12:46 PM
  Subject: [time-nuts] 57600 baud rate with Basic???
 
  Hi,
 
  I'm currently using a GWBasic program at 9600 Baud to get 1 second T.I.
  data (12 digits) from an SR620 counter, display the reading , put the
  reading into a file, name the file sequentialy, and either save or
 delete
  the file via a function key.
 
  I'm switching to a new counter that outputs at 57600 Baud (9 digits).
 
  Is there a version of Basic I can use that would support that 57600 Baud
  rate?
 
  Thanks,
 
  Corby
  __**__
  Woman is 53 But Looks 25
  Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
 
 http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.
 **com/TGL3141/**507462c97549762c919e3st02ducht
 tp://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/507462c97549762c919e3st02duc
 
  __**_
  time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go to
 
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 https://www.febo.c
 om/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
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  To unsubscribe, go to
 
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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  and follow the instructions there.
 
 
 
  __**_
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 mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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 e-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz low pass filter

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

Based on that PCB, I want to see an sweep to at least 1GHz.
The reason is that experience have shown that the inductance (perhaps 10nH)
in series with C2 and C6 would damage the stop-band rejection at UHF.

Used with an OXCO this would not matter, but the desire to make the
ultimate filter is still there.

Thomas.

2012/6/21 li...@lazygranch.com

 If the output is buffered, there really shouldn't be a problem.

 Incidentally, I can crank out high order LCR filters all day just by
 transforming prototypes out of Zverev. But it has been my experience at
 even 10MHz the parasitics of the elements will throw off the design.


 -Original Message-
 From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 17:49:37
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz low pass filter

 Hi

 That's a pretty high order filter. The output of most OCXO's already has a
 filter on it. Combining two filters (especially high order ones) without
 isolation between them is not a good idea. The resulting transfer function
 will not be what you expect it to be….

 Bob

 On Jun 20, 2012, at 4:54 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:

  I came across this filter design recently and thought I'd build a few.
 
  http://www.jwmeng.com/AppNote/AppNote003.html
 
  I was about to place a Mouser order when I came across someone selling
  filters, based on the above design.
 
  http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-MHz-filter-kit-for-tcxo-gps-pll-/110893777470
 
  The price with a board seemed low enough that I ordered a few. I'll
  let everyone know how they work out.
 
  Joe Gray
  W5JG
 
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Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz low pass filter

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

I don't have any problems with rotating the inductors, after all, that is
one of the best way to avoid coupling between them, but the main problem as
I see with that board is that there are 2 caps that would become an series
resonance with the inductance in the via to reach the ground plane.

Of course, at 10MHz this is just theoretical, since the problem most
probably would appear above 500MHz, and the 50'th harmonic of an OXCO
should be low.

My experience says that the inductance in the capacitor it self should be
low, specialy if NP0 or such capacitors caps are used.

An 10MHz sallen key lowpass may be interesting to build,and with the GHz
bandwith op-amps avaible today, it should work great.

Thomas.

2012/6/21 li...@lazygranch.com

 **
 In the days when I had access to a network analyzer with a chip component
 fixture (all calibrated of course), I tested components on hand just to see
 how ideal they were. Chip resistors are quite good. The inductance is
 basically the electrical length of the device. Caps can be decent. My
 recollection is Johanson had some really good (low parasitic) caps.
 Inductors basically suck.

 You will note in most RF board design with lumped elements, they rotate
 adjacent inductors to reduce mutual inductance.

 10MHz is probably too low in frequency for practical stripline. You could
 probably do active filters these days, but the power budget would not be
 trivial.

 --
 *From: * Thomas S. Knutsen la3...@gmail.com
 *Date: *Thu, 21 Jun 2012 01:17:02 +0200
 *To: *li...@lazygranch.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency
 measurementtime-nuts@febo.com
 *Subject: *Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz low pass filter

 Based on that PCB, I want to see an sweep to at least 1GHz.
 The reason is that experience have shown that the inductance (perhaps
 10nH) in series with C2 and C6 would damage the stop-band rejection at UHF.

 Used with an OXCO this would not matter, but the desire to make the
 ultimate filter is still there.

 Thomas.

 2012/6/21 li...@lazygranch.com

 If the output is buffered, there really shouldn't be a problem.

 Incidentally, I can crank out high order LCR filters all day just by
 transforming prototypes out of Zverev. But it has been my experience at
 even 10MHz the parasitics of the elements will throw off the design.


 -Original Message-
 From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us
 Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
 Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 17:49:37
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10 MHz low pass filter

 Hi

 That's a pretty high order filter. The output of most OCXO's already has
 a filter on it. Combining two filters (especially high order ones) without
 isolation between them is not a good idea. The resulting transfer function
 will not be what you expect it to be….

 Bob

 On Jun 20, 2012, at 4:54 PM, Joseph Gray wrote:

  I came across this filter design recently and thought I'd build a few.
 
  http://www.jwmeng.com/AppNote/AppNote003.html
 
  I was about to place a Mouser order when I came across someone selling
  filters, based on the above design.
 
 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-MHz-filter-kit-for-tcxo-gps-pll-/110893777470
 
  The price with a board seemed low enough that I ordered a few. I'll
  let everyone know how they work out.
 
  Joe Gray
  W5JG
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A's

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

I bougth one, and it seems like they have replaced the firmware with the
one from 58503A. When sending *IDN to it, it responds with HP 58503A.

Thomas.

2012/1/13 Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net


 -

 Does anybody know what Z3801A has been upgraded by us, which the feature
 is
 the same as 58503A. really means?




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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Mechanical Question

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

GPIB is not realy slow by todays standars. It's still capable of
transfering more data pr sec than USB 1, there is some notes about it at
NI.
The Prologix box consist of an an microcontroller and an USB chip or such,
but the programming involved in order to get it all working is extencive if
you want to support some of the early instruents.

I use the Prologix USB box often. It appears as an serial port, and is easy
to use. As fair as I understand, the GPIB-LAN device you just telnet into.

BR.
Thomas.

2012/1/13 Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com

 $150 is $130 more than $20.   It depends on if an ISA type computer
 shows up for free.  I'm having doubts that one will.  They seem to
 have become valuable.  The machine would need to be at least a Pentium
 II so it could boot off the network and then mount some disk space.  I
 know what you mean about maintenance so i don't want any disk inside
 and no OS installed.

 I'm surprised that no one has built a GPIB controller from a uP.
 Electrically the GPIB is simple and slow by modern standards.

 Thanks, I just looked up the Prologix


 On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net
 wrote:
 
  albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
  and send the data out the GPIB but getting that into a computer is the
 hard
  part.
 
  OK so I check on eBay.   Most are $300 but If you can find a computer
 with
  an old ISA slot then there are working GBIB cards for about $20.
 
  Many of us are happy with the Prologix.  The USB version is $150.  That's
  more than I really want to spend but less than $300 and you don't have to
  maintain an old PC.
 
  The USB version uses one of the popular USB-RS232 chips so there is no
  problem with drivers.  I haven't tried the Ethernet version.
 
  http://prologix.biz/
  http://www.sparkfun.com/search/results?term=GPIBwhat=products
 
 
 
 
  --
  These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
 
 
 
 
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 --

 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt GPS rollover

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

I do assume this is because of the 1024 week cycle? if so would it be
possible to tell the GPS what  cycle it should be?

Would the 10MHz out still be accurate?

BR. Thomas.

2011/10/20 Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com:

 On July 30,  2017 all our Thunderbolts turn into back-dated pumpkins...
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Re: [time-nuts] Follow-up on Z3801A high EFC reading

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

I think it is in Matthys, Crystal oscillator circuits. Can't quote
page number now, as my verson is somwhere I cant remember. It's an
excellent book if you do some experimentation.
I did write an letter to R.J. Matthys a couple of years ago, and
reveiced an answer.

73 de Thomas LA3PNA/AE5YS.

2011/7/16 Dan Rae dan...@verizon.net:
 One crystal expert, who's name escapes me, sorry, told me that if you power
 up an oscillator that has been off for an extended period, you should expect
 a very rapid ageing process to occur with a lot of the accumulated changes
 that would have happened had it been powered on then to occur when it was
 restarted.

 But I can't quote chapter and verse, obviously.

 Dan

 ac6ao

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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt no usable sats.

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

Thanks for all the information, this is an great group.
Does anyone have the shematic on the box?

BR.
Thomas.

2011/6/12 Ed Palmer ed_pal...@sasktel.net:
 Is there more than one hardware version of the T'bolt?

 Mine has U18 (right behind the RS-232 connector) as an Intersil ICL232IBE.
  This is a dual RS-232 transceiver that includes a doubler and inverter to
 generate plus and minus 9 to 10 volts from the +5 input.  It appears to have
 the required capacitors on the bottom of the board.  The open circuit RS-232
 voltages on mine are just under 10 volts which seems a little low for a 12
 volt source.

 I didn't try to run mine without -12, but the presence of that chip and
 messages on this list made me think that the -12 was only used for the DAC.

 Ed

 WarrenS wrote:

 I've run test of the effect of the Neg supply on a Tbolt's operation and
 the effect on it's noise.  (It would seem I'm one of few nuts that actually
 test things) The Neg supply effects the RS232 neg swing and the neg output
 of the DAC.
 As long as the Dac out (OSC EFC input) is  than a couple of volts above
 the neg supply (or the EFC is positive)  all worked fine at any Neg supply
 down to -3 volts.
 This is because most RS232 receivers don't need their input to swing
 negative.
 Your -7 volts statement agrees well with my test. You can go even lower on
 the neg supply with no ill effects IF you do not need the DAC output to go
 all the way to neg -5Volts.

 ws
 PS I did not test for the effects with a Neg supply less than -3 volts, It
 may of been able to go even lower, I just wanted to insure it was reliable
 with -5 volts for my application.


 **

 [time-nuts] Thunderbolt no usable sats.
 Arthur Dent golgarfrincham at yahoo.com
 It may or may not be used for tuning voltage but what I said is
 100% correct. The Andrew/Grayson units these T-Bolts were
 used in provided -7 VDC for this negative supply and the same
 T-Bolts work properly on -12 VDC. If this voltage is missing, the
 com port will not work.
 +++
 Please read what I actually said. Do you disagree that these units will
 not run on -7 VDC or that the com port will not work if the negative supply
 is missing?
  -Arthur



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[time-nuts] Thunderbolt no usable sats.

[Thomas S. Knutsen]

I bougth an Thunderbolt off E-bay some time ago, to use as reference
for my spectrum analyzer and signal generators.
I had it connected up with a couple of power supplies and it worked as
it should.
Today I put together an voltage inverter to get the -12V to the GPS in
order to use it with an single 12V power supply.

When re-starting the GPS, it did an servey but did not find any usable
satelites, I did think that it just needed some time, and left it on
for a couple of hours. It still show no usable sats.

When monitoring the GPS with Lady Heather the clock show an time, but
it states no usable sats and none are visible in the map.
The GPS antenna is in the attic and have approx 25dB gain (with cable loss).

Is there any known issues with this? I did look through the archives
but found nothing.

Is the -12V used for more than the RS-232? if not, would it be
possible to replace it with an other type that don't ned -12V?

BR
Thomas.

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