Re: [time-nuts] TICC Timestamping / Time Interval Counter -- Available to Order

[Don Latham]

Hi Jim:  From a hardware multi drop viewpoint, the CAN Bus seems on paper to be 
simplest…
2 120 ohm resistors and a twisted pair…
Don

> On Dec 8, 2016, at 8:40 AM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> On 12/8/16 6:18 AM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:
>> Hi Luciano --
>> 
>> The expanded-channels scenario would use one TICC/Arduino pair for each
>> set of channels.  It would require much redesign to stack multiple TICCs
>> on a single Arduino, and I don't think one board would have the power to
>> handle it.
>> 
>> What I envisioned would be a set of TICC/Arduinos each putting their
>> data on USB, and then something like a RPi receiving the multiple USB
>> data streams and serving as a control unit that might multiplex the data
>> onto a single ethernet stream, or do processing/storage itself.
>> 
>> At this point, the TICC board includes the connections to allow multiple
>> boards to be synchronized but we haven't implemented the full system yet
>> -- in part because until now there are only 4 working TICCs in the
>> world, and they are in 3 locations!
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the strategy I would use.  I've been using a lot of Teensy boards (a 
> small Arduino clone from http://www.pjrc.com) for data acquisition, radar 
> controls, and the like.  (see, e.g. FINDER
> http://blogs.mathworks.com/headlines/2016/04/25/how-nasas-microwave-radar-designed-for-space-saved-lives-after-earthquake/)
>  
> 
> I went through a variety of approaches - a multichannel data acquisition 
> system from NI, etc. - this worked out the best - each little processor deals 
> with ONE thing and one thing only, and streams the data out the serial port 
> (emulated by USB) to a host processor which collects the data, aligns it, 
> does all the post processing, etc.
> 
> For synchronization among multiple units, there's an input pin on each 
> processor that I use as the sync input, driven either from a 1pps or from 
> another of the processors (e.g. with a configuration where I've' got 1 
> transmitter and 4 receivers, the transmitter sends the sync pulse, and the 
> receivers all use that to sync their side)
> 
> We have been working on using something other than USB to collect the data: 
> probably a shared RS485 type multidrop interface.  Our cumulative data rate 
> isn't huge and most readily available host processors (PC, RPi, BBB, etc.) 
> don't have lots of independent interfaces - they tend to have one or two or 
> three of something.
> 
> The other approach we're looking at is making our own "data aggregator" with 
> another teensy - if that's all it has to do, then even using a "soft UART" 
> off a programmable IO pin is probably good enough to merge a dozen 10kbps 
> streams into one.
> 
> BTW-
> USB has all sorts of weird idiosyncracies as you propagate down through the 
> succession of 4 port hubs, particularly with respect to power management 
> (hubs can turn downstream ports on and off, but have to be able to be woken 
> up), and most operating systems don't deal well with it.
> Among Linux, Windows, and OS X, they all run into trouble with the OS's model 
> of the power state of all the downstream hubs not matching the actual state.. 
> it's a *hard* problem, and in a consumer environment, you tell them to just 
> "unplug and replug" - that triggers a wakeup and re-enumeration of the tree.
> 
> I will add that almost all modern OS versions handle the USB serial number 
> thing so that devices retain their same identity, no matter where they happen 
> to be in the USB tree, and what's going on with enumeration.  No more do you 
> deal with the the "COM port number changing capriciously", assuming your 
> serial port supplier is following the rules.
> 
> (Of course, we DO have code that goes out and tries all possible com ports 
> and probes them for our device, just in case)
> 
> 
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Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
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Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
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Re: [time-nuts] Questionable content webcomic channels some time nuttery

[Don Latham]

glad there are some other readers out there…

> On Nov 7, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Christopher Hoover <c...@murgatroid.com> wrote:
> 
> +1
> 
> On Nov 7, 2016 4:05 PM, "Gregory Maxwell" <gmaxw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3346
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Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

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Re: [time-nuts] Atomic Watch

[Don Latham]

I’m really glad that the article was edited for clarity. 
Don

> On Oct 18, 2016, at 5:12 AM, Clint Jay <cjaysh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I am peeking in as a mere amateur and that article hurts my brain, I cannot
> imagine how hard some folk here must be battering their heads against their
> desks.
> 
> Oh, and it's not the first either, this one was a year prior...
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/01/hoptroff_shows_first_atomic_watch_movement/
> 
> http://www.hoptroff.com/collections/atomic-timepieces
> 
> On 18 October 2016 at 12:00, Tim Shoppa <tsho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> If I saw a chess playing machine that had a bunch of gears and levers, AND
>> A LITTLE HUMAN INSIDE, and the proprietor was bragging about how well the
>> human had been trained relative to the military, I would spend all my time
>> wondering how much of the work the human was doing. Even if the combination
>> played simply awful chess.
>> 
>> Tim N3QE
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Jim Palfreyman <jim77...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Well I think there's a mistake or two here...
>>> 
>>> https://www.inverse.com/article/20497-john-patterson-atomic-ce
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Clint.
> 
> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
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Re: [time-nuts] OT stuffing boards: was GPS interface/prototyping board

[Don Latham]

I do not see why a small pick and place assist system could not be built on a 
3-d printer.
Don

> On Jun 24, 2016, at 8:32 AM, Attila Kinali <att...@kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:16:34 -0500
> Oz-in-DFW <li...@ozindfw.net> wrote:
> 
>> 1. Pick and place machines use a lot of floor space (even for the
>>"small" ones are more than 1/2 a bench.)
>> 2. Even the best ones require pretty continuous tuning. If you aren't
>>using them continuously each new run is a new and different
>>experience.  Often unpleasant for the first few scrapped boards.
> 
> The trick is to use semi-manual pick machines for low volumes.
> Ie machines that you do not program, but guide by hand. This allows
> faster and more accurate placing of components than would be possible
> with a pure manual process, but does not have any of the complexity
> of the fully automated solutions. The components do not need to be
> 100% exactly centered, as the surface tension of the molten solder will
> pull the parts into place (which is also the reason why the copper inside
> the solder resist mask should be symmetric).
> 
> These machines are still all pretty expensive (IMHO, the cheapest
> start from around 2kusd IIRC), but with the continuous growth of the hobbyist
> market, and that market becomming more and more professional/proficient,
> the production volumes of these  machines will for sure rise and thus become
> cheaper. I am pretty sure that we will see hobbyist marketed pick 
> systems
> build upon open source based control systems in the next couple of years.
> There are already a couple of DIY systems out there, that look quite good.
> e.g http://vpapanik.blogspot.de/2012/11/low-budget-manual-pick-place.html
> http://www.briandorey.com/post/Diy-Manual-Pick-and-Place-Machine-part-1
> 
> 
>> Solder stencils make **all** the difference.
> 
> Oh, yes! Please, do not try syringe dispensers! These fail more often than
> they work. Also pay the additional couple of bucks to get a steel stencil
> instead of a kapton one. Especially if you make more than one or two boards
> or those with fine pitch.
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
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Re: [time-nuts] Measuring receiver...

[Don Latham]

sified. You're not relying on Betty the
>> receiver operator to recognize the characteristic chirp as the agent's
>> radio is keyed, it's all done by computer now, but the basic idea is the
>> same.  And as with most of this stuff, the basics are well known, but the
>> practical details are not, or, at least, are the proprietary secret sauce
>> in any practical system. (In a significant understatement, Dixon, in
>> "Spread Spectrum Systems" makes some comment about how synch acquisition is
>> the difficult part and won't be described in the book)
>>>> 
>>>> You might look at the unclassified proceedings of conferences like
>> MILCOM and find something.  Googling with MASINT might also help.
>>>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> I am Pulse. Unbreakable.
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Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
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Re: [time-nuts] Glass Envelope Quartz Crystals

[Don Latham]

You have it right, iovane. At the least, they should be protected from light,
thermal radiation, and emf.   Won'drous things will happen if the crystal and
its structure are subjected to radiation through the glass. I'd suggest a foam
wrap in a tin can as a minimum. Put the oscillator cat in there too.
Don

iovane--- via time-nuts
> I think that these crystals were designed to be placed in an oven, which
> worked
> as a shield too. I have a similar crystal made by Racal in the 60's, and in my
> case it is fitted with the classic octal tube-type plug. It was housed (still
> is) in a heavy massive shimmering chrome-plated cylindrical brass enclosure, a
> beauty to see, It was the timebase of a tube-type synthesizer with lots of
> tubes. Themperature control was achieved by means of a mercury thermometer in
> which mercury actuated a contact when reaching a wire crossing the capillary
> tube.
>
> Antonio I8IOV
>
>>Da: Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org>
>>Data: 02/02/2016 13.15
>>A: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"<time-nuts@febo.com>
>>Ogg: Re: [time-nuts] Glass Envelope Quartz Crystals
>>
>>Hi
>>
>>Since the 25 MHz crystal has already been soldered into a circuit, putting it
> in a
>>socket is probably not a real good idea. It’s also a leaded part. Even with
> fat pins
>>sockets can be an issue. With wire leads, you are asking for trouble.
>>
>>Functionally, there is little there is little difference between a glass
> package crystal
>>and a metal package. About the only real one is the obvious - one has a metal
> shield
>>you can (but sometimes don’t)  ground.
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 1, 2016, at 9:58 PM, Daniel Watson <watsondani...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I purchased a pair of interesting glass envelope crystals for a project.
>>> Here are some pictures:
>>>
>>> http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/glass-envelope-quartz-crystals.html
>>>
>>> Does anyone have an idea about what mount/socket I should buy for these? I
>>> read a previous thread on the list about Bliley crystals using a B7G mount,
>>> but I'm not sure if that type might work here.
>>>
>>> Also, when building up a circuit to make these oscillate, are there any
>>> specific differences about crystals in this package that I should keep in
>>> mind?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks much,
>>>
>>> Dan W.
>
>
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-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort

[Don Latham]

Someone has already probably said, watch out for switching regulators.  BTW,
almost all the Hp instruments I have from the 80's era run hot as heck. I have
put on fans and piggybacked more fins (and more fins, and more fins...).  A
Military version of the 5328A counter I have has what sounds like a leaf
blower in it, with a proportional controller added.
If you do some work with switchers, I'm sure the list would be very interested!
Don

Don
Perry Sandeen via time-nuts
> Hi,
> Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more
> than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel
> board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is - why do
> that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as the counter
> with way less effort…..
> Well, I have two reasons not to.
> First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU boards
> and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living daylights out
> of my units before blowing off my investment.
> Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I have
> to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
> Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it seems
> the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s) on the
> cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the thing still
> was too hot.
> IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high
> interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it will
> be a while before I can work on mine.
> I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try better 3
> terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors, install
> switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in the top lid
> and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the afore mentioned.
> I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it
> working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I will
> find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment before. And
> when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
> Regards,
> Perrier
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-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
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Re: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort

[Don Latham]

I have two A's and one B, and two Beaglebone replacements. I'm interested. If
we even had a block diagram, we'd be ahead!
Don

Richard (Rick) Karlquist
> On 1/22/2016 2:14 PM, Mathew Breton wrote:
>> I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
>> probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set
>> of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of
>> 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
>> This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an open-source
>> drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer,
>> as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode
>> range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the
>> E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
>> I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I
>> would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the
>> detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
>> In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few rise-time
>> dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set
>> (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
>> Regards,
>> Mat Breton
>
> I would like to mention that the "father" of the 5370,
> David Chu, retired from Agilent a few years ago.  He
> might be receptive to giving you some advice about
> your project.  He is still very sharp technically.
> If there is sufficient interest,  I might be able
> to arrange for an introduction.  It would be helpful
> if we had a show of hands on time nuts as to how many
> people on time nuts are interested in this board.
> David was one of the best engineers in the history
> of the Santa Clara division and the fact that the
> 5370 lives on is a testimony to how far ahead of
> its time the design was, some 40 years ago.
>
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
> HP Santa Clara Division 1979-1998
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-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
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Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions

[Don Latham]

t;> looked at
>> > item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
>> > about
>> what's
>> > inside.
>>
>> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to
>> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
>> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
>>
>> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
>> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
>> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
>>
>> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
>> good luck with.
>>
>> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
>>
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
>> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
>>
>> combined with a GPS receiver board.  They also are available in a “2
>> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
>>
>> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
>> clean
>> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
>> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
>> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
>> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
>> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
>>
>> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
>> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> > Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
>> Appriciate any
>> > and all input.
>> > Nathan KK4REY
>> >
>> > Sent using CloudMagic Email
>> > [
>> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi=7.4.15=9.1=email
>> _footer_2
>> ]
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-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

[Don Latham]

Mini-circuits has packaged phase detectors plug-in, surface, and with
connectors for $20 TO $70. Diode bridges with transformers. They also have
cheap wideband amps. Bet a simple DDMTD could be built with these? I know...I
wish I did have the time at present.
Happy New Year!
Don

Magnus Danielson
> With some sine-to-square conversion as signal conditioning, not too hard
> these days, this could be a relatively straight forward approach.
> CERN already have digital clocks, so the DDMTD approach fits them well.
>
> For normal mixers you want to signal condition the signal prior to the
> mixers, and then signal-condition the beat notes too.
>
> For DDMTD you do the same, but you do the post mister conditioning in
> the digital domain.
>
> I have always assumed that signal-to-noise have been the main difference
> between the Gilbert cell multiplies vs. diode mixers.
>
> Cheer1s,
> Magnus
>
> On 01/05/2016 09:19 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>> You could also consider a DDMTD as useed in CERN's White rabbit
>> project.Apart from the sine to logic level conversion its all digital. With
>> care in the design the jitter should be sub picosecond.
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>  On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp
>> <p...@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>   My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
>> my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
>>
>> Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
>> and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
>>
>> Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?
>>
>> What am I overlooking ?
>>
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>


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO and oscillator steering - EFC vs DDS schemes?

[Don Latham]

A friend and I have been messing with a DDS replacement for the VFO in older
radios. The odds runs between 5 and 5.5 MHz. There are some mixers that
generate the final LO frequency. We found many many birdies (caused by spurs
for the non-hams) over the tuning ranges.  We had to put in a lo-pass filter,
7stage commercial type to get rid of the birdies. But as I recall, there have
been several cautions on this list about filters causing temperature
dependence.  I haven't read the whole of this thread, so it may have already
been mentioned.
Merry Christmas,
Don

Magnus Danielson
> God kväll,
>
> On 12/09/2015 11:47 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>> God eftermiddag,
>>
>> On Tue, 8 Dec 2015 23:45:52 +0100
>> Magnus Danielson <mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> If you would setup essentially a micro-stepper design, such as those
>>> being used for cesium and hydrogen masers, but maybe adapted to a
>>> hobbyist needs and with straight-forward way of building and tune-up,
>>> then we could alter the design pattern. The phase-noise and long term
>>> stability issues is clear.
>>
>> It doesn't look too difficult to crank something out within a rainy
>> weekend or two. But I am most likely underestimating the amount of work :-)
>
> Indeed. As any engineering time estimate, you need to multiply with pi.
> At work, we engineers divide our estimates with pi before giving it to
> the project managers, as they will multiply with pi before putting it
> into their time-plan. :)
>
>>> Doing control loop using a phase-stepper is a little bit different, and
>>> has a few minor design-challenges, but once mastered is essentially the
>>> same. EFC or C-field control then becomes more an initial setup.
>>
>> What makes the control loop different (beside that you control phase
>> and not frequency, and thus have to integrate)?
>
> Well, that is a little bit different right there. Depending on your
> setup, you might have to consider how phase-wrapping and similar
> saturations that happens over a long time. If you think about it, it's
> manageable.
> One useful trick is to let the phase-wrapping be that of the numeric
> wrapping, and then handle that case for time-stamps, so that the
> numerical extension becomes trivial. If you don't, you can get some very
> interesting problems.
>
>>> An alternative approach divider wise is to use re-generative dividers.
>>> For Rick's approach there would be a number of these at the same
>>> frequency (nominally), so the same design-pattern would apply. However,
>>> that would only be meaningful if you need really need to keep the noise
>>> down.
>>
>> Yes, I thought about that as well, the problem here is that the low
>> noise mixers designs use transformers, which make everything bulky
>> and expensive (the usual suspects cost 2USD/piece and use about 1cm^2).
>> The one design that comes to mind that doesn't need transformers is
>> the tripple Gilbert-Cell design, but that might be higher in noise.
>> (Heck, i should just sit down and do some noise calculations)
>> Additionally, there is a need for relative steep filters for 667kHz
>
> Indeed. For most uses, re-generative dividers will not be needed.
>
> I should do more experiments on that stuff.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
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>


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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[time-nuts] trade timestamps

[Don Latham]

Interesting note The Economist, Oct. 31, p 75 re new rules for timestamping of
stock transactions and the like.  Looks to be a nightmare.
Don


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 136, Issue 5

[Don Latham]

3 amens to that, bre'r Bob. I too, have a pile or two. I thought, being an
adaptive and fixit whiz, I could actually use the stuff. Ain't so.
Don

Bob Camp
> Hi
>
> Equally to the point - don’t overpay.
>
> A unit that needs a whole bunch of attention is worth less than something that
> fires up and “just works”. In this case entry level “just works” is priced
> below $200.
>
> Stuff with historical significance - sure, you could easily pay more for that.
> To
> me it’ll be another 20 years before the mid-90’s GPS gear becomes
> “historical”.
>
> It’s easy to get caught up in some of this stuff. I have piles and piles of
> this and that
> to prove the point.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Nov 5, 2015, at 3:17 PM, paul swed  wrote:
>>
>> Yes funny how those things tend to work.
>> If you have good enough life will fill in with other things pretty quickly.
>> As an example I have an old austron 2201 GPS unit that really does a nice
>> job of showing offsets. But with the GPS rollover and other annoyances its
>> actually a pain in the butt to fire up.
>> Far to spoiled by the modern things you fire up walk away and 30-120 min
>> later pretty darn stable.
>> Regard
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Stephen Farthing 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the advice and offers to help. I think I will pass on the
>>> Proteus. I have already have a rubidium standard and getting  the Proteus
>>> to work is probably going to take up more time than I have available for a
>>> while.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Steve G0XAR
>>>
>>> On Thursday, 5 November 2015,  wrote:
>>>
 Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to
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 than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..."


 Today's Topics:

   1. NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit (Stephen Farthing)
   2. Re: NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit (Bob Camp)
   3. Re: NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit (paul swed)
   4. General Radio frequency standard question... (Burt I. Weiner)
   5. Re: NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit (Rob Sherwood.)
   6. Re: NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit
  (gandal...@aol.com )


 --

 Message: 1
 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 19:25:39 +
 From: Stephen Farthing >
 To: time-nuts@febo.com 
 Subject: [time-nuts] NAVSTAR proteus GPS time and frequency unit
 Message-ID:

Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined FE5680A

[Don Latham]

Is this on github or source forge? Somehow I missed it but am interested.
Don

Bert Kehren via time-nuts
> The GPSDO is alive and well. We have run and are running in excess of 15
> units in Beta test on FE 5680, 5650 and 405 with very good results. There are
>  several reasons for the release delay also doe to the fact that I have
> moved  along with s a significant down sizing.
> I will not be in the kit business and have decided that the module will be
> offered to time nuts assembled and tested. A time nut is in the final
> phase with the first 5 units ready for beta test. Some time nuts may want to
> copy me off list. Price will be $ 65 I will not be involved except selecting
> the  candidates. The candidates should be willing to disable the temperature
>  compensation extensively covered and have at least heat sink preferably
> temperature control.
> Goal is to start shipping in volume before the end of the year. I have  no
> financial interest in it.
>
> Skip offers a modified FE 5650 with the same data format that the popular
> 5680. You may contact him direct.
> Again a caution there are many data formats and only the most poular format
>  that has been extensively covered on the list is supported.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/3/2015 12:00:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> time-nuts@febo.com writes:
>
> Following Nick's comment, under the subject "Z3801A and  FE-5680A Allen
> Variances", that he briefly considered   designing a board to GPS
> discipline
> the FE5680A, I'm pretty sure  that a year or so ago just such a board  was
> suggested as being close  enough to completion to warrant a request for
> beta
> testers, with  perhaps even a suggestion that it could be made  available
> as a
> group  purchase.
>
> Since then though, as far as I'm aware anyway, it just seems  to have
> disappeared without trace, or did I miss  something?
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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>


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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[time-nuts] another gpsdo

[Don Latham]

http://www.force12inc.com/products/gps-locked-precision-frequency-reference-low-jitter-gps-clock-450-hz-to-800-mhz-output.html

Don

-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS

[Don Latham]

definitely interested.   I'd especially like to know about using the 30 MHz
with the Chinese dds block.
Don

Clint Jay
> I've made some investigations and re-confirmed my earlier findings on the
> FE-5680B I have.
>
> It locks from cold in under five minutes and runs at approximately 700mA
> steady with the expected PPS signal on the output connector when locked.
>
> The particular 5680 I have has a Hi Density 15p male connector on the
> output and uses a single 15V supply, part number FE5680B UN 77672.
>
> The device does not have the optional DDS daughterboard which means that
> it's not usable as a programmable signal source as it stands (but see
> later).
>
> For approximately six seconds after power is applied a 10MHz signal
> available on the output connector, this signal comes directly from the
> XC9572 CPLD via a filter network and appears to be a clean sine wave.
>
> The 10MHz signal seems to be 'switched off' by some event in the unit, I
> don't yet know if this is in response to an event or just a timed shutdown
> but power cycling the unit re-enables the 10MHz output for a further six
> seconds. It doesn't appear to be related to rubidium lock as it takes
> consdierably longer than six seconds to lock.
>
> There is a solid 30MHz signal inside the unit, stable once the rubidium has
> locked and the PPS output is also available once locked.
>
> Other observations show that the MAX3232 serial driver chip is missing and
> in it's place there is a tiny 8 pin device marked M09 or MO9 which is
> connected to the TXD/RXD pins on the output connector and the TXD/RXD pins
> on the 80C323 CPU.
>
> I'd be very interested in suggestions as to the part number of that device,
> it may yield clues as to the communication method needed.
>
> Attempts to communicate with it via a terminal program have given no
> responses at several 'standard' baud rates. Voltage levels are LVTTL.
>
> I'm wary of applying 5V to any of the pins on the interface connector
> directly and probing them with 3.3v via a 10K resistor has made no
> difference to any of the signals I can monitor (30MHz, PPS etc.) with the
> exception of pin 13 which I *think* is reset, obviously this causes the
> frequencies to skew for a few seconds until reset is completed.
>
> My intent is to use the 30MHz signal from the CPLD to clock a DDS chip
> (probably one of the eBay DDS modules) that's controlled by a PIC chip (I
> already have code to run a DDS VFO I developed earlier this and late last
> year. Hopefully this will be small enough to fit inside the casing though I
> don't see a problem with bringing the 30MHz signal out if necessary.
>
> My apologies if this is outside of the scope of this list, I will also be
> writing up my findings and experiments with this standard on my blog if
> anyone is interested?
>
>
>
> On 26 September 2015 at 11:23, Bryan _ <bpl...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Hal, that's interesting, will try and see how far I can get.
>> -=Bryan=-
>>
>> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
>> > From: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
>> > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 23:40:40 -0700
>> > CC: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
>> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE-5680B Rubidium and DDS
>> >
>> >
>> > > I as well wish there was a quick way of converting it back to 10Mhz. I
>> am
>> > > sure it can be done, just not sure how or where to look
>> >
>> > If the 10 MHz is visible for a second or two, there is probably a gate to
>> > turn it on/off.  If I wanted 10 MHz, I'd open it up and trace the wire
>> back.
>> > If it goes to a gate, you might be able to lift the pin for the other
>> input
>> > and wire it hi/low.  There is a good chance it goes to a FPGA where you
>> can't
>> > get at the gate.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> ___
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Clint.
>
> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> ___
> time-nuts 

Re: [time-nuts] Easy-to-use TDC to compare PPS

[Don Latham]

I don't recall ever hearing from Deutschland about this chip. Gave up, if I
remember aright. Still engaged in the mad race to update, 5 yr later. Got a
620, and the BBblsck boards for the 5370's
Don

Tom Van Baak
> There's some useful information in the following long threads:
>
> acam TDC chips (was: PicTic Data)
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-August/049463.html
>
> Some info on the ACAM TDC and a question to Brooks Shera's PI controller
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-October/051134.html
>
> Acam TDC's
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2014-April/084070.html
>
> Experience with THS788 from TI?
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-March/065293.html
>
> /tvb
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Xavier Bestel" <xavier.bes...@free.fr>
> To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 7:30 AM
> Subject: [time-nuts] Easy-to-use TDC to compare PPS
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'd like to do some PPS comparisons on an SBC (like a Beaglebone or RPi)
>> using a TDC. So far the ones I've seen which could be suitable are
>> ACAM's TDC-GPX and TI's THS788:
>> http://www.acam.de/fileadmin/Download/pdf/English/DB_GPX_e.pdf
>> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ths788.pdf
>>
>> However these chips don't look so simple to connect to a standard SBC.
>> Would anyone of you already have attempted that journey, or simply have
>> a reasonably good idea about how to do that ?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Xav
>> ___
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
>


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] TS-2100 GPS : RD-5, Remote Time Code Display

[Don Latham]

Thanks, Greg. I note it will free wheel and display with with an internal
crystal wow. Such as? Banking on an available blank spot for a BNC and a
switch on the back panel!
Don

Gregory Beat
> I see that only one of the Symmetricom TrueTime RD-5 (model 820-500) Time Code
> Remote Display Clocks (7 segment LED, 0.56" high) remains unsold.
> Hopefully some time-nuts acquired these nice remote time code displays.
> ** finally adjusted mine for local time (and DST) earlier this week **
>
> In case you miss out on these FAA surplus items, the same eBay reseller has
> the
> Datum TimeView 9520-240 Airborne Time Code Display (10 listed available).
> Manual for that model is noted on eBay auction.
> Main difference from other model, appears to be controls on front (readily
> accessible) and
> possibly less flexible in the daylight savings time adjustment (I didn't look
> closely).
>
> The eBay reseller is: gadgets-plus
> who is located in Lombard, IL.
>
> Greg
> w9gb
>
>
> Sent from iPad Air
> ___
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>
>


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
---
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Vanguard Ultra precision Golden Oscillator

[Don Latham]

Gee whatever happened to slipping it out of the ol' FT holder and rubbing with
a little toothpaste?
g Don

Bob Camp
 Hi
 On Aug 23, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote:


 kb...@n1k.org said:
 There is not a lot to an un-compensated crystal oscillator. Tuning it on
 frequency is fairly simple. Even for odd  frequencies Mouser will happily
 sell you a crystal for next to nothing. Toss in a handful of parts and you
 have a very respectable oscillator. For a basement project … much better
 than spending $40 on something suspect from who knows who.

 What's magic about a crystal as compared to an osc?  Is it really easier to
 get an odd-ball frequency in a crystal vs an osc?


 When I do a Mouser search for frequencies in the range I mentioned, the number
 of frequencies is pretty small. If I switch over to looking at crystals at
 Mouser, the
 frequency choices are a lot greater. Yes, as with the oscillators you need to
 sort out
 the ones that aren’t going to cut it.

 To your point - no, you can’t get anything / any frequency through
 distribution. That’s
 true both of oscillators and of crystals. You just more picks with the
 crystals.

 Bob


 The last time I bought a special frequency osc was over 10 years ago.  Once
 I
 found the right company, things were simple.  I don't remember the price.
 At
 the time, it seemed reasonable, but that was for a commercial project rather
 than a basement lab.

 Do those companies still exist or have they all fallen through the cracks of
 higher volumes and lower prices.


 --
 These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Ghost in the Shell
---
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Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
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Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

[Don Latham]

Re the Ref-0 Ref-1 difference. Might be easier to find in the difference
between PForth dumps? R0 and R1 may simply be differences in words?
Don

Bob Camp
 Hi

 Yes, Paul posted a link yesterday that includes a link of the words dump from
 pForth.

 Bob


 On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's going
 on?

 Bob Camp
 Hi

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-- 
If you don't know what it is,
don't poke it.
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---
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Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
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Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

[Don Latham]

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don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell
---
Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

[Don Latham]

Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's going on?

Bob Camp
 Hi

 Actually it’s PForth, but yes it’s Forth. The same “dump the code” approach
 used by a crazy pair of people back a while on the Z3801 applies equally well
 to these devices.

 Bob

 On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH?
 Don

 Bob Camp
 Hi

 And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!!

 Bob

 On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W watsondani...@gmail.com wrote:

 A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run
 standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal
 circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and
 disciplining to the 1PPS.

 The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things
 are
 looking very good.

 I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will
 post
 that here when I am done.

 Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the
 project.

 Regards

 Dan

 On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

 Hi

 While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible
 with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100%
 sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick
 different
 strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with
 an
 Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001.

 That kicks you back to  20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon
 came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms
 since
 then.
 A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call
 volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS
 receivers.
 Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you
 have a LOT of changes.

 Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the
 REF-0,
 with
 a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high
 stability /
 long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity
 GPS to
 go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds.

 

 Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !!

 Bob

 On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote:

 Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware.

 I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore
 receivers.
 Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to
 use a new
 crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the
 messages
 required to do that.

 The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as
 ASCII
 characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited
 with
 explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and
 after many
 years working with computers have no desire to acquire them.

 The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The
 problem
 with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels
 while
 the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is
 two
 more groups of satellite data.

 I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages.
 Considering
 the low level of interest in this subject, please write to b...@iaxs.net
 for
 further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please
 make a
 reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a
 28 volt
 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being
 downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other
 stuff.

 Bill Hawkins
 Bloomington, MN 55438


 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
 Camp
 Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

 Hi

 As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA
 era
 (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information.
 The signal
 spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it
 worth
 playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound
 reasonable.

 As with any “absolute” statement, there are sure to be exceptions
 ..

 ==

 For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations.
 The KS
 does not care that it always sees the same sat’s at the same locations
 directly
 over it’s own north pole location. It just wants data in the field.

 It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here
 and there.
 None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the Oncore
 strings
 are something Mr Google knows a lot about.

 If you do try to synthesize

Re: [time-nuts] You need one of these to improve your time-nuttery.

[Don Latham]

Maybe they have a small space in two adjacent rooms for a pendulum in each one?
Don

Mark Sims
 I wonder how much such an environment would improve time-nut equipment
 performance and measurements?  They claim a 2-3x resolution increase in a STM.

 http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/07/inside-the-quietest-room-in-the-world/
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-- 
If you don't know what it is,
don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell
---
Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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[time-nuts] manual upload

[Don Latham]

Uploaded to KO4BB:
Kode Odetics 3100 time interval analyzer op manual
100 ps min timebase, 10 ps error a boatanchor but IEEE488 output. access
instructions in the manual. Will take intervals less than 1 us apart.
about $250 on ebay. Originally for hard disk drive measurements. Set up to use
x10 probes; has a risetime calibrator. accepts 5 MHz external standard.
During my search, found that Odetics had a patent on the interpoltion timing
scheme.
manual also at https://www.febo.com/pages/hardware/kode/kode_tia3100.pdf

Don


-- 
If you don't know what it is,
don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell
---
Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Omega counters and Parabolic Variance (PVAR)

[Don Latham]

. This is not to say that the PVAR technique is not useful.

 Getting proper results with these types of techniques takes care in the
 detail, but if you do you can harvest their benefits.

 For further reading, please check these articles:

 E. Rubiola, On the measurement of frequency and of its sample variance
 with high-resolution counters (PDF, 130 kB), Rev. Sci. Instrum. vol.76
 no.5 article no.054703, May 2005. ©AIP. Open preprint
 arXiv:physics/0411227 [physics.ins-det], December 2004 (14 pages, PDF
 220 kB).
 http://rubiola.org/pdf-articles/journal/2005rsi-hi-res-freq-counters.pdf

 The Omega Counter, a Frequency Counter Based on the Linear Regression
 http://www.researchgate.net/publication/278419387_The_Omega_Counter_a_Frequency_Counter_Based_on_the_Linear_Regression

 Least-Square Fit, Ω Counters, and Quadratic Variance
 http://www.researchgate.net/publication/274732320_Least-Square_Fit__Counters_and_Quadratic_Variance

 The Parabolic variance (PVAR), a wavelet variance based on least-square fit
 http://www.researchgate.net/publication/277665360_The_Parabolic_variance_%28PVAR%29_a_wavelet_variance_based_on_least-square_fit

 I should probably shape this up into a proper article.

 Cheers,
 Magnus
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-- 
If you don't know what it is,
don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell
---
Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
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Re: [time-nuts] CS frequency standard

[Don Latham]

THANKS, EVERYONE. OFF IT GOES.
DON

paul swed
 As Mark says the tubes have a very finite life. So like him I turn mine on
 as needed and every 6 months. My tube is on absolute fumes and is very very
 marginal. But it still locks on its own in something like 16 hours with
 almost impossible to see beam current.
 So if you follow the every 6 months then indeed that CS will last a long
 time.
 Plus no power consumption and heat generation. How green is that?
 Now some might say whats the value of the CS if its not your main reference?
 It helps resolve ambiguity between to GPSDOs as an example. Which ones
 moving around more. Its great for checking your RB offsets etc.
 Few people need the CS on all the time. The other funny thing on the HP
 series you can turn the tube off and just use the OCXO after its been
 adjusted accurately.
 I run my HP 5065a Rb the same way. Power as needed and every 6 months.
 So you are very lucky to have a good CS.
 Regards
 Paul.
 WB8TSL

 On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 6:07 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 I lucked out on a very squeaky clean FTS 4060 CS standard. Started up right
 away and appears to have a strong tube.
 My question for those in the know:
 I don't appeal to the standard very often.
 Should I leave it on all the time, on a UPS, or start it up when I need it?
 I'm 76. If I leave it on, will it last as long as I need it :-)?
 Thanks and howdy,
 Don



 --
 Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLC
 17850 Six Mile Road
 Huson, MT, 59846

 mail:  POBox 404
 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

 VOX 406-626-4304
 CEL 406-241-5093
 Skype: buffler2
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


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Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846

mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
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[time-nuts] CS frequency standard

[Don Latham]

I lucked out on a very squeaky clean FTS 4060 CS standard. Started up right
away and appears to have a strong tube.
My question for those in the know:
I don't appeal to the standard very often.
Should I leave it on all the time, on a UPS, or start it up when I need it?
I'm 76. If I leave it on, will it last as long as I need it :-)?
Thanks and howdy,
Don



-- 
Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846

mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] potential source for cheap copy of labview

[Don Latham]

If you'll put an arduino in as a controller, Makerrplot is a really nice
interface, and really cost effective and easy to use.  Can also be used on
'net devices and rs232.  Robot Basic will do rs232 and 'net and is free.
Don

paul swed
 Have the eval license up and operating with the NI simple LED test. It
 works.
 I can easily see how you could use this to create a nice GUI for some sort
 of control project.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote:

 On 6/21/15 11:28 AM, Don Latham wrote:

 Just for fun, went to the site.  $149 for basic, but by the time I added
 all
 the toolboxes I thought (!) I needed, I was over $750. sigh.
 Don


 Hence the popularity of the student license (or Octave)


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Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846

mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
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Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components

[Don Latham]

Also have a look at the amateur radio literature available from the ARRL. Lots
of practical info.
Don

John Allen
 Hi all - this website has some older books from the 50's and 60's  that may
 help.
 Links are at
 http://tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm
 Most of the way to the bottom of the page.

 I hope this is helpful..

 Passive components (transformers, capacitors...)

 Capacitors, Magnetic Circuits, and Transformers, Leander Matsch, 1964, 350
 pages
 A detailed text on capacitors, inductors, and transformers.  Great info for
 those wanting a deep understanding of these passive components.  Good theory
 and practical applications, especially on transformers and inductors.
 Download full text with index, 3.2MB PDF file

 Electronic Transformers and Circuits, Reuben Lee, 1955, 349 pages - Courtesy
 of John Atwood
 This book is a reference on the design of transformers and electronic
 apparatus.  It covers the design of power transformers, chokes, and signal
 (audio) transformers.  It also talks a bit about circuitry, as it relates to
 transformers. Enough theory to understand what's going on, as well as
 practical info on how to construct transformers.
 Download full text, 24MB PDF file

 Handbook of Piezoelectric Crystals,  John P. Buchanan, 1956, 701 pages -
 Courtesy of an anonymous donor
 Wow - of military origin, a 700 page book about crystals!  A rare source of
 information on peizo crystals, as they relate mostly to communications.
 Download full text,   48MB PDF file

 Hipersil® Core Design Engineer's Handbook, Westinghouse , 1965, 108 pages
 This is a design guide and materials databook for Westinghouse Hipersil
 transformer cores.   A good design guide for transformers and cokes, and has
 detailed material data (curves and data tables) for Hipersil steel.
 Download full text, 1.9MB PDF file

 John, K1AE

 -Original Message-
 From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq
 Sent: Monday, June 22, 2015 7:56 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components

 Hi

 The problem with coils (inductors) is that they are indeed on the “other side”
 of the physics / electrical engineering divide. They are not unique in this
 way.
 Most components are dealt with to a “equivalent model” level and then
 abandoned
 in engineering.

 You have two choices:

 1) Read the physics stuff
 2) Go back far enough that the divide had not occurred ( = 1950’s).

 Sorry about that ….

 Bob


 On Jun 22, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote:

 Hi,

 I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
 anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
 transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
 the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
 windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
 or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
 generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
 couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
 (with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.

 So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
 on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.

 Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
 use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.

 Thanks in advance

  Attila Kinali

 --
 I must not become metastable.
 Metastability is the mind-killer.
 Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
 I will face my metastability.
 I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
 And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
 Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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-- 
Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846

mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] potential source for cheap copy of labview

[Don Latham]

Just for fun, went to the site.  $149 for basic, but by the time I added all
the toolboxes I thought (!) I needed, I was over $750. sigh.
Don

David J Taylor
 From: Jim Lux
 []
 Mathworks still does a variety of low cost licenses, including a $149
 for Matlab home license + $45 for add on products. (not for academic,
 commercial, govt, or organizational use)

 They also have a $49/$99 student license in conjunction with coursework
 at a degree granting institution.  I suppose that you could sign up for
 a class at the local community college.(that's gone up a lot with a
 bunch of added fees around here)

 The new matlab has drivers/simulink blocks to handle a lot of hobby type
 hardware platforms (RPi, Arduino, LEGO Mindstorms NXT)
 []

 Matlb is free and included with the Raspbian OS for the Raspberry Pi.

   
 http://uk.mathworks.com/help/supportpkg/raspberrypiio/examples/getting-started-with-matlab-support-package-for-raspberry-pi-hardware.html

   
 http://uk.mathworks.com/help/supportpkg/raspberrypi/examples/getting-started-with-raspberry-pi-hardware.html

 Cheers,
 David
 --
 SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
 Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
 Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk

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-- 
Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846

mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] TBolt interference

[Don Latham]

Gee. my phone has a place in settings to turn the gps off to save power. Am I
being fooled?
Don
Charles Steinmetz
 John wrote:

I was interested in building a micro power GPS
jammer to attach to my own phone to keep it from
sending GPS coordinates.

 Easy peasy.  Open the phone, locate the GPS antenna, and wrap it in a
 small piece of aluminum foil.  I've done several this way.

 Best regards,

 Charles



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-- 
Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846

mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Signal/Phase noise analyzer

[Don Latham]

You might like the SignalHound:
http://signalhound.com/
Don
Vasco Soares
 Hi All,



 I'm searching for the less expensive signal analyzer to perform phase noise
 measurements on OCXO's. There is no need to go above 400 MHz - 1 GHz. I'm
 particularly interested on low frequency offset and good close in phase noise
 specs. Any recommendations?



 Best regards,

 Vasco Soares
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-- 
Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846

mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] New +/- 1 sec in 100 days mech clock

[Don Latham]

I saw Harrison's number one (its replica?) at Greenwich some time ago. It is a
dual pendulum, 180 out of phase. I remember a lot of springs.
Don

Peter Torry
 You could always use the traditional method of piercing saw and files.
 Thinking about it I suppose files were the original milling machine.  Be
 aware that the horological approach is different from the engineering
 approach and there are numerous traps waiting for the unwary.  Harrison
 and Martin's clock B have remarkable performance but could still be
 improved by using multiple pendulums to overcome the noise effects for
 example a two pendulum clock is performing within 1 second in six months
 (so far) so I will have to get the hacksaw out for the three pendulum
 version - or is it back to the GPSDO.

 Peter



 On 20/04/2015 20:51, Attila Kinali wrote:
 On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 09:59:06 +0200
 Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote:

 Mechanical, yes. Home brew, no. It is an absolutely stunning clock,
 both in beauty and performance.
 Given the fact that a CNC milling machine can be bought quite cheaply
 today, i would say that homebrew is easily possible. All you need
 is a good understanding on different materials and how to machine them.
 (This can be aquired using various machining books out there)
 Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding. What I ment here
 was, that once you have the plans, machining the parts and building
 the watch is easy. Comming up with a good plan is still hard.

  Attila Kinali


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-- 
Noli sinere nothos te opprimere

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846

mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Arduino GPIB

[Don Latham]

Marvelous. Is there any reason not to adapt this to an Arduino with a network
shield?
Don
Joseph Gray
 I thought everyone here would find this of interest. I stumbled across it a
 few days ago on the 'net. It is a Prologix GPIB-USB compatible made with an
 Arduino Uno.

 http://egirland.blogspot.com/2014/03/arduino-uno-as-usb-to-gpib-controller.html

 Like on his web site, I just took a cheap GPIB cable, cut off about 12
 inches and shoved the wires into the socket holes on an Uno. I uploaded his
 program and did some minor testing so far. BTW, it didn't work the first
 time due to poor contact. I shoved some pin headers in, after the wires and
 now it works fine.

 John's Prologix config program works just fine with this cobbled together
 GPIB adapter. I attached it to my HP 3457A and then ran the demo program
 that comes with Ulrich's EZGPIB. It is logging data as I type this. I will
 do more testing with other instruments, as I have time.

 As mentioned on the web page linked above, a few commands are not yet
 implemented, although they appear to be little used commands (except
 perhaps the ++savecfg command). I think I have a way to implement the ++rst
 command using the watchdog timer. For ++savecfg, it shouldn't be too
 difficult to store things in the Arduino EEPROM.

 I have some cheap Arduino Nano's and PCB-mount GPIB connectors on order. I
 will be making a couple of these Proligix-compatible adapters with those
 parts, so that they aren't just wires shoved into a board. I'll have to
 find a small box to house things. I have also ordered some buffer chips to
 add to the design. Total cost should be under $20 for each adapter.

 The firmware uses a serial baud rate of 115200, which I assume is the same
 as a real Prologix. I'm going to try some higher baud rates to see how fast
 the Arduino can push bits without losing them. I understand that with the
 default 16 MHz clock, non-standard baud rates that are evenly divisible
 into the clock rate should work even better I'll report back.

 One question about the baud rate - are there any reasons not to change from
 115200? Since we are simply moving bits through a USB/Serial adapter, does
 any software really care what the baud rate is, as long as we don't drop
 any bits?

 Joe Gray
 W5JG
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Errors on HP 58503A GPS time frequency reference receiver bought from yixunhk.

[Don Latham]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Chinese capitalism. 
Don

 On Dec 11, 2014, at 6:16 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
 drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:
 
 Hi Stuart,
 Several people have contacted me about the fakes. I can't understand why
 his feedback is so good.  The seller bought some calibration standards from
 me which I clearly stated were damaged.  I did at the time notice they left
 about 25% negative or neutral feedback,  so was expecting that, but they
 never left any feedback for me.
 On 12 Dec 2014 01:00, Stewart Cobb stewart.c...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I have bought several items from this seller and left positive feedback
 because the items arrived promptly and appeared to work. Problems only
 became apparent days, weeks, or months later. But by then it was too late
 to change feedback.
 
 This seller admits to changing the firmware on a GPSDO to upgrade it to a
 more valuable part number. I bought a device from him for which included a
 newly fabricated sheet-metal case complete with new false trademarked
 labels.  It's a very good fake, but it was not in fact produced by the
 manufacturer whose name is on the label, and it did not meet the
 requirements of the device inside. I have bought other devices from him
 which had other problems.
 
 It is possible that the seller is obtaining his stock from other sources
 inside China, and that he is not directly involved in changing firmware or
 creating fakes. It is possible that he himself is an innocent victim of
 sharp practice by others. I make no direct accusations. However, the
 equipment I have obtained from this seller in the past has not proved
 satisfactory to me over the long term, and I have chosen not to do business
 with this seller in the future.
 
 Cheers!
 --Stu
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[time-nuts] TIC users

[Don Latham]

Ran across this in my 'net travels:
http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/analog/sensors-and-sensor-interface/MAX35103.html
American supplier, 20 ps accuracy claimed time interval to digital.
Don



-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite

[Don Latham]

actually, Magritte had it:  “this is not a pipe”
Don

 On Dec 5, 2014, at 8:01 AM, Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com wrote:
 
 The OP said he couldn't find anything applicable when he was
 looking for light pipe.  So, I offered him a suggestion for
 why.  Ultimately, we are talking about locating something
 using a search engine.
 
 The public has taken to the high tech sounding term fiber optic
 to describe what used to be called a light pipe.  If it is thin,
 and flexible, and moves light from one location to another, it
 will be known to most people as fiber optic.
 
 As an example, sitting here on my workbench is a light that I use
 to illuminate objects under my Olympus stereo microscope.  It is
 made by Nikon, and has the following words inscribed on its panel:
 
 NIKON, Inc.  MKII Fiber Optic Light
 
 Do you imagine that it is a precision glass or plastic waveguide,
 or just a flexible light pipe?
 
 -Chuck Harris
 
 
 
 paul swed wrote:
 That is a good suggestion. But I fall into the camp. Not really that
 important now.
 At least not to get me to pull it out of the rack. :-)
 The little LED are pretty bright and I remember some broadcast equipment
 used light pipes.
 OK now I am going to get silly but this is time-nuts. I think light pipe
 and fiber optics are two different terms.
 Yes they both pass light. But a fiber optic is a precision glass or plastic
 waveguide. A light pipe is a bulk piece of plastic that is not a wave guide
 in respect to the accuracy of the walls.
 Oh I am so doomed now that I said that.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] Convert Stanford Research SR620 time-interval counter to SR625 ???

[Don Latham]

Hi Dave:
My 620 arrived with option 01, but the ocxo was out of tolerance and I could 
not bring it to 10 MHz. So I adapted a Morion that I had on hand.  The 
self-test passed, but of course there is no way to self-test the frequency of 
the internal standard. I may open up the original osc or not.
The noise should be ok, there is another regulator for the works in the ocxo.
If the 620 did not have 01 option, a morion could easily br installed according 
to the schematics, I think.
Don

 On Dec 3, 2014, at 8:39 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
 drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk wrote:
 
 On 28 Nov 2014 02:06, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:
 
 I’ve just replaced the SR620 oxco option 01 with a Morion, by simply
 adding a 7812 to the 15 v heater
 
 Did the SR620 have option 01 before you did the mod?
 
 In other words,  did you change to the Moxen because you believe it is
 better than Stanford Research's high stability, or just because the SR620
 had the TCXO?
 
 Will the 7812 not add noise? There are lot lower noise devices around,  but
 I guess if it only powering the oven, it is not important
 
 I am still waiting to hear my SR620 has been dispatched.
 
 Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] uCenter driver

[Don Latham]

One of the lists I get bemoans a loss of connection due to FTDI action against
counterfeits.
Don

Bob Camp
 Hi

 I have never seen driver level com port allocation problems on any version of
 Windows using the FTDI drivers. They have always been well behaved and stable.
 That’s why I designing in their chips ….

 Bob

 On Nov 30, 2014, at 4:53 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote:


 michael.c...@sfr.fr said:
 There has recently been comments on the COM port allocation in relation to
 the LTE-Lite project which reminded me that I have seen an issue trying to
 run multiple instances of the uCenter software in order to
 monitor/configure
 multiple uBlox receivers at the same time. Unfortunately only one virtual
 COM port is created located to the first instance. I cannot get multiple
 COM
 ports allocated when plugging in another unit. Anyone seen this? ...

 The LTE-Lite uses a vanilla FTDI serial to USB chip.  I use Linux and often
 have more than one plugged into a system without any problems.

 I'd be surprised if Windows has troubles with more than one.  (But I've been
 surprised before.)

 I don't know anything about the uCenter software.

 Can you talk to both with your favorite terminal program?



 --
 These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Does adjusting ocxo's degrade adev / madev ?

[Don Latham]

Just replaced an ocxo in my ST620 with a Moron ocxo, which had been unpowered 
for a few years in all probability. It took several days to come to a 
reasonable equilibrium. In a system with as many components as an ocxo, I 
suspect that seeking a new equilibrium will take an appreciable time well 
beyond design criteria, as Charles expresses. Hunting time constants may indeed 
be quite long.
Don

 On Nov 27, 2014, at 1:48 PM, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote:
 
 Mark wrote:
 
 I've long had a nagging suspicion that OCXO's that are not adjusted will in 
 practice have lower ADEV than ones that are tweaked regularly.   Several 
 days ago I noticed that one of my 10811's was performing quite well (I 
 believe this is the first time any of 10811's have delivered adev / madev 
 numbers in the 13's) and this was sustained for approx 2 days.   After 
 trimming the frequency and letting it sit for a number of hours  I noticed 
 the adev was notably worse.
 
 Every time a quartz oscillator is disturbed in any way, its stability is very 
 likely to go down for a time until it settles back in.  The disturbance could 
 be adjusting its frequency (either mechanically or via EFC), interrupting the 
 power, changing the crystal temperature, physically bumping the unit, or 
 anything else that changes its operation.  How long it takes to settle back 
 into normally stable operation depends on the crystal itself and on how 
 violent the disturbance was.  I would never expect a quartz oscillator to be 
 back to normal stability for at least some days after a macro frequency 
 adjustment.  [Tiny, tiny adjustments such as done by ongoing GPS discipline 
 do not seem to have a large effect on the stability of quartz oscillators.]
 
 But I note that you say an oscillator that had never delivered stability in 
 the e-13's had a couple of very good days, and then didn't go back to the 
 e-13's in a number of hours.  First, you probably shouldn't expect it to go 
 back to the couple of good days level -- it's likely to go back to its 
 normal level.  And second, you shouldn't expect it to get there for at 
 least a few days.
 
 Best regards,
 
 Charles
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Convert Stanford Research SR620 time-interval counter to SR625 ???

[Don Latham]

I’ve just replaced the SR620 oxco option 01 with a Morion, by simply adding a 
7812 to the 15 v heater feed. Locks well with either gpsdo or cesium external 
source. Don’t forget to turn on the external option and set the frequency for 5 
or 10 MHz. It took about 5 days for the Morion to reasonably settle down.
  I agree about the Rb, has to be set with Gpsdo anyway, and I’ve already had 2 
of them go South.

Prescalers from RFBay.

Don

 On Nov 27, 2014, at 4:25 PM, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote:
 
 Hi David:
 
 For me the key benefit of the SR620 is the 16 digit display.  That implies a 
 lot of digits in the reference (although not all 16 of them) so I always use 
 an external reference.
 
 When I turn the PRS-10 upside down the crystal changes frequency and the Rb 
 corrects the crystal, see:
 http://www.prc68.com/I/PRS10.shtml#Accel
 http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/FC_ROT.jpg
 
 Mail_Attachment --
 Have Fun,
 
 Brooke Clarke
 http://www.PRC68.com
 http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
 http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html
 Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) wrote:
 On 27 November 2014 at 22:15, Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net wrote:
 Hi David:
 Hi Brooke
 
 If you look just to the right of the SR620 you will see a separate box that
 contains the PRS10.
 Ah, I missed that!!!
 
 I was thinking it fitted inside the SR620, but obviously not.
 
 The PRS10 can work as either a Rb GPSDO or as a time stamping device.  For
 the SR620 any GPSDO would make a good external reference.
 It would have been nice to have a better reference inside, as
 sometimes I move equipment around, and don't always want to take more
 than necessary, so having a better reference inside would have been a
 nice thing, but I see it is not what I thought.
 
 This unit I purchased has the option 01, the ovenized VCXO, but of
 course that is not going to have the long-term stability of a Rb
 source.
 
 I see one of the SR625 add-ons on eBay,
 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/STANFORD-RESEARCH-SYSTEMS-SR625-2GHz-PRESCALER-/281486714451?pt=US_Marine_Aircraft_Radioshash=item4189ea6653
 
 but it does not look in good condition, so I'm not paying $700 for it.
 
 Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite Plans

[Don Latham]

yes please!
Don

 On Nov 26, 2014, at 11:45 AM, Jim Sanford wb4...@wb4gcs.org wrote:
 
 Didier:
 Please DO share.  Thanks!
 Jim
 
 On 11/25/2014 7:47 PM, Didier Juges wrote:
 Jim,
 
 I have somewhere a piece of VB 6.0 code that decodes NMEA sentences and puts 
 it pretty on the screen (at least that's how I remember it :). I am not at 
 home at the moment but I'll be glad to send it to you if you are interested. 
 May not do what you want, but it will get you started.
 
 Didier KO4BB
 www.ko4bb.com
 
 On November 25, 2014 1:42:42 PM CST, Jim Miller j...@jtmiller.com wrote:
 I have one of the LTE-Lite 20Mhz units and plan to use it as a
 frequency
 reference for my ham radio gear. My planned setup is as follows:
 
 I'm putting it in the recommended Hammond enclosure powered by a USB
 cable
 from my PC. I had originally planned to use the wall wart provided but
 I
 want to get status from the unit without hacking a window in the top to
 see
 the LEDs so I plan to use TBD software to provide a status check. I
 briefly
 thought about doing something with an Arduino and display shields but
 that
 seemed like too much work for now.
 
 I'm using a inverting D FF from TI (SN74aup1g80) as a divide by 2 to
 provide 10Mhz. The chip and associated passives will be on a little
 circuit
 board mounted in the open area normally reserved for the external
 oscillator. The output of the chip will be connected via a series
 resistor
 of about 400 ohms to a SMA connector. This resistor will limit the load
 on
 the FF and the LTE-Lite power source. Power will be taken from C6.
 
 This output will only go a few inches to a DEMI 10Mhz 4 way splitter
 The
 input of the splitter will be equipped with an additional ERA-2+
 amplifier
 (50 ohm input) which will restore the signal levels lost due to the
 series
 resistor in the LTE-Lite addon. The DEMI splitter will also be equipped
 with a manual power switch which will allow me to kill the output of
 the
 box if the GPSDO fails for some reason.
 
 The little hockey puck antenna will be mounted directly outside the
 shack
 wall near a south facing wall which will limit the visibility to only
 half
 the horizon. I'm assuming this will be enough for my modest needs.
 
 The four outputs will be used as follows:
 
 One will go to the K3 ExtREF to provide an external reference.
 
 Two will go to separate TX/RX converters for low frequency (600Khz)
 use
 and be used with the transverter I/O on the K3.
 
 The last will be used as a general calibration reference.
 
 When the power switch on the DEMI splitter is turned off the K3 will
 revert
 to using its internal TXCO.
 
 I leave the PC running 24/7 and the power to the LTE-Lite would only be
 interrupted when the PC is rebooted. I don't need a frequency reference
 during the reboot time since I always operate my rig with the PC on and
 running. The TBD status software will tell me when the LTE-Lite is
 synched
 up again. The PC is served by a UPS and the shack circuit is one which
 is
 served by our whole house generator.
 
 I have the DEMI splitter built up and working. Now just waiting on
 enclosure from Digikey. I should have everything running by mid
 December.
 
 I still need to figure out what to use for the status software. Ideally
 I'd
 like an applet to display appropriate status indications on my monitor
 for
 now I'll examine the uBlox and Putty and if not satisfactory perhaps
 I'll
 write something in VB.
 
 Feedback and suggestions welcome.
 
 73
 
 Jim ab3cv
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Re: [time-nuts] ocxo

[Don Latham]

sorry, Bob, I spaced this one.  The dac is indeed a trimpot, and if the 
external source is enabled, the 1:1 pll controls the ocxo through, as you 
thought, a fast loop, about 2 sec t/c and the trimpot dac is not connected. The 
pll is an ecl  phase detector and a pump, very simple.  So the “zero point” of 
the oxco has no setting voltage? more thought needed!

Don


 On Nov 23, 2014, at 7:34 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 The main question is - is there a PLL between the external ref and the OCXO? 
 If so does it go through the DAC? 
 
 If there’s a PLL through the DAC, then bits do matter. If the DAC is simply a 
 replacement for a trim pot, then it may not matter much at all. The OCXO will 
 likely age more in a few days than the reported LSB resolution of the DAC. 
 I’d bet DAC is not part of a PLL.
 
 Bob
 
 
 On Nov 23, 2014, at 8:04 PM, Neil Schroeder gign...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 No but a little math based on your ocxo's range can help... but measuring
 it in person does give you the best numbers.
 
 More precision and more bits WON'T hurt here and the application notes from
 the leading crystal makers suggest a DAC front ended by a precision op amp
 with and that the xo be followed by a buffer.  So I took the nuclear option:
 
 http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/circuit_notes/CN0257.pdf
 
 My Wenzels don't have a reference out and neither do any of my VCXOs, but
 my $30 Vectron from Ebay does - so my circuit for it is modified to accept
 its reference voltage (its also plugged into an ADF4001 now)
 
 NS
 
 
 On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 About the only other question would be the proper resolution for the DAC.
 There’s not much of a way to to answer that one without playing with a
 woking original OCXO.
 
 Bob
 
 On Nov 23, 2014, at 7:22 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:
 
 No question about that. The morion does run a little warmer than the old
 unit
 apparently did. Fan is temp-controlled, so I think OK. will monitor box
 temp
 with a digital :-) thermometer, very poor resolution, but probably ok.
 When I get the last obs done. will do a little blurb to the group.
 Don
 
 Bob Camp
 Hi
 
 That sounds fine. Without knowing just what they did or didn’t do, it’s
 always
 worth being a bit careful.
 
 Bob
 
 On Nov 23, 2014, at 6:40 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:
 
 Running very nearly continuously for about 4 days now. The
 self-measured
 jitter is mean 0 and sdev of 8 ps. I don't think there is a problem
 with the
 Morion. I'm using my newly acquired cs source and a couple of z3801's
 for
 checking. 1 bit on the SR's frequency calibration dac seems to be
 about 4-5
 parts in 10^-10 if I'm reading things right. Next test is a z3801
 driving
 the
 external freq port on the sr to see if the frequency change direction
 of the
 morion is OK.
 The scope display output from the SR620 is great!
 Lots to learn. Also have one of Said's units coming. Gone nuts for
 time,
 won't
 do anything much new, but it's new to me. All this to drive
 moonbounce...
 Don
 
 
 Bob Camp
 Hi
 
 If all the “good stuff” runs on the 90 MHz, the 5 MHz issue may not be
 important at all. It’s just something to watch for. If you start
 seeing
 data
 in two groups, each one 20 ps wide and separated by maybe 200 ps, you
 are
 seeing a problem from the 5 MHz.
 
 Running the box for a while before doing a full detailed cal is a
 very good
 idea. It’s a bit warm inside and some of the stuff is temperature
 sensitive.
 You want it to reach equilibrium.
 
 Bob
 
 On Nov 23, 2014, at 1:06 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:
 
 Ah. Got it finally!  Doh. Just finished trying out the Morion this
 afternoon.
 Electrically works very well. Used a 7812 to drop the +15 volts from
 the
 option 1 ocxo, there is enough power headroom to bring the Morion up
 from
 cold
 and run it comfortably. As you said, the control voltage for the
 original
 is
 indeed 5 v, and can be set by the internal d/a. The output of the
 oscillator
 passes through an emitter follower voltage adjuster and through a
 low-q
 filter
 to three stages of ECL buffer and then out to the 10 MHz system bus
 clock.
 Another path proceeds to a relay-switched divide by 2 to the phase
 detector
 so
 an external 5/10 MHz source can lock the internal oscillator.
 The external 5/10 MHz source proceeds to the phase detector thru an
 identical
 buffer chain without the switched divider.  The remainder of the
 clock
 circuits is a multiplier to 90 MHz.
 
 I'll run the autocal tomorrow and then get some jitter stats if
 possible.
 This
 is an early specimen, s/n about 700 or so. I can imagine seldom
 used, and
 sitting on standby for 20 years or so, pushing the ocxo out of
 tolerance.
 
 The saga continues; I may have to look for a 10 MHz replacement on
 epay,
 there
 isn't room to put in an Hp, unfortunately.
 Don
 
 
 
 
 Bob Camp
 Hi
 
 At least the Morion’s I have seen have 5 MHz crystals in them
 rather than
 10

Re: [time-nuts] ocxo

[Don Latham]

Running very nearly continuously for about 4 days now. The self-measured
jitter is mean 0 and sdev of 8 ps. I don't think there is a problem with the
Morion. I'm using my newly acquired cs source and a couple of z3801's for
checking. 1 bit on the SR's frequency calibration dac seems to be about 4-5
parts in 10^-10 if I'm reading things right. Next test is a z3801 driving the
external freq port on the sr to see if the frequency change direction of the
morion is OK.
The scope display output from the SR620 is great!
Lots to learn. Also have one of Said's units coming. Gone nuts for time, won't
do anything much new, but it's new to me. All this to drive moonbounce...
Don


Bob Camp
 Hi

 If all the “good stuff” runs on the 90 MHz, the 5 MHz issue may not be
 important at all. It’s just something to watch for. If you start seeing data
 in two groups, each one 20 ps wide and separated by maybe 200 ps, you are
 seeing a problem from the 5 MHz.

 Running the box for a while before doing a full detailed cal is a very good
 idea. It’s a bit warm inside and some of the stuff is temperature sensitive.
 You want it to reach equilibrium.

 Bob

 On Nov 23, 2014, at 1:06 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Ah. Got it finally!  Doh. Just finished trying out the Morion this
 afternoon.
 Electrically works very well. Used a 7812 to drop the +15 volts from the
 option 1 ocxo, there is enough power headroom to bring the Morion up from
 cold
 and run it comfortably. As you said, the control voltage for the original is
 indeed 5 v, and can be set by the internal d/a. The output of the oscillator
 passes through an emitter follower voltage adjuster and through a low-q
 filter
 to three stages of ECL buffer and then out to the 10 MHz system bus clock.
 Another path proceeds to a relay-switched divide by 2 to the phase detector
 so
 an external 5/10 MHz source can lock the internal oscillator.
 The external 5/10 MHz source proceeds to the phase detector thru an
 identical
 buffer chain without the switched divider.  The remainder of the clock
 circuits is a multiplier to 90 MHz.

 I'll run the autocal tomorrow and then get some jitter stats if possible.
 This
 is an early specimen, s/n about 700 or so. I can imagine seldom used, and
 sitting on standby for 20 years or so, pushing the ocxo out of tolerance.

 The saga continues; I may have to look for a 10 MHz replacement on epay,
 there
 isn't room to put in an Hp, unfortunately.
 Don




 Bob Camp
 Hi

 At least the Morion’s I have seen have 5 MHz crystals in them rather than
 10
 MHz. They have a 10 MHz output due to an internal doubler. Since the
 circuit
 is not perfect, there is cycle to cycle variation in the 10 MHz. It’s way
 more
 jitter (measured in picoseconds) than the oscillator has due to phase
 noise.
 My concern is that a counter might be bothered by this is some subtle way.

 Bob

 On Nov 22, 2014, at 3:55 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Hi Bob: no. cobble, not double :-)  A little research has me thinking I
 can
 easily adapt a morion. I can try it at least by starting with the morion
 on
 an
 external power supply and patching the output and control voltages in to
 the
 sr.

 The sr620 has a control circuit which apparently accomplishes your
 suggestions; they claim to use the internal oscillator for short term and
 lock it to a supplied external source for longer term. Probably has a
 long
 time constant on the built-in phase lock to do this.

 Anyhow, autocal calibrates everything except, guess what, the 10 mhz
 source.
 Thats done separately.
 So a bootup self check shows OK even if the frequency standard is way off.

 Onward and upward.
 Don

 Bob Camp
 Hi

 I believe that the SR620 uses a “true” 10 MHz OCXO. I would be careful
 using a
 5 MHz doubled to 10 OCXO. The counter may or may not be happy with
 sub-harmonic induced jitter.

 Best bet at the specs:

 +12V power
 0-5V EFC
 Sine wave out +7dbm

 +/- 5x10^-9 0 to 70C

 Pinout - trace what you have.

 Bob

 On Nov 21, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:


 So, I got a reasonable deal on a SR620 ho ho. Know your dealer. The ocxo
 is
 out of tolerance. All self tests pass with flying colors, autocal works
 as
 well. So the best parts are OK.
 Does anyone:
 1) have a spare Isotemp OCXO36-53 10.000 MHz  p/n 6-00051?
 2) know the specs, ie the input voltage/current and the control voltage
 span
 and direction? pinout?
 I have some Morion mv-89's  and could easily cobble one in if it will
 work.
 Apparently a correct oscillator must be in place to use an external
 source,
 if
 I read the manual right.

 3) do we have a source for the schematics for the SR 620?

 The FTS 4060 is up, pumpin' and firmly locked. At least for now. That
 dealer
 was not lyin'

 Much thanks to all of you.
 The adventure continues


 --
 The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
 who
 have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLC
 17850

Re: [time-nuts] ocxo

[Don Latham]

No question about that. The morion does run a little warmer than the old unit
apparently did. Fan is temp-controlled, so I think OK. will monitor box temp
with a digital :-) thermometer, very poor resolution, but probably ok.
When I get the last obs done. will do a little blurb to the group.
Don

Bob Camp
 Hi

 That sounds fine. Without knowing just what they did or didn’t do, it’s always
 worth being a bit careful.

 Bob

 On Nov 23, 2014, at 6:40 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Running very nearly continuously for about 4 days now. The self-measured
 jitter is mean 0 and sdev of 8 ps. I don't think there is a problem with the
 Morion. I'm using my newly acquired cs source and a couple of z3801's for
 checking. 1 bit on the SR's frequency calibration dac seems to be about 4-5
 parts in 10^-10 if I'm reading things right. Next test is a z3801 driving
 the
 external freq port on the sr to see if the frequency change direction of the
 morion is OK.
 The scope display output from the SR620 is great!
 Lots to learn. Also have one of Said's units coming. Gone nuts for time,
 won't
 do anything much new, but it's new to me. All this to drive moonbounce...
 Don


 Bob Camp
 Hi

 If all the “good stuff” runs on the 90 MHz, the 5 MHz issue may not be
 important at all. It’s just something to watch for. If you start seeing
 data
 in two groups, each one 20 ps wide and separated by maybe 200 ps, you are
 seeing a problem from the 5 MHz.

 Running the box for a while before doing a full detailed cal is a very good
 idea. It’s a bit warm inside and some of the stuff is temperature
 sensitive.
 You want it to reach equilibrium.

 Bob

 On Nov 23, 2014, at 1:06 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Ah. Got it finally!  Doh. Just finished trying out the Morion this
 afternoon.
 Electrically works very well. Used a 7812 to drop the +15 volts from the
 option 1 ocxo, there is enough power headroom to bring the Morion up from
 cold
 and run it comfortably. As you said, the control voltage for the original
 is
 indeed 5 v, and can be set by the internal d/a. The output of the
 oscillator
 passes through an emitter follower voltage adjuster and through a low-q
 filter
 to three stages of ECL buffer and then out to the 10 MHz system bus clock.
 Another path proceeds to a relay-switched divide by 2 to the phase
 detector
 so
 an external 5/10 MHz source can lock the internal oscillator.
 The external 5/10 MHz source proceeds to the phase detector thru an
 identical
 buffer chain without the switched divider.  The remainder of the clock
 circuits is a multiplier to 90 MHz.

 I'll run the autocal tomorrow and then get some jitter stats if possible.
 This
 is an early specimen, s/n about 700 or so. I can imagine seldom used, and
 sitting on standby for 20 years or so, pushing the ocxo out of tolerance.

 The saga continues; I may have to look for a 10 MHz replacement on epay,
 there
 isn't room to put in an Hp, unfortunately.
 Don




 Bob Camp
 Hi

 At least the Morion’s I have seen have 5 MHz crystals in them rather than
 10
 MHz. They have a 10 MHz output due to an internal doubler. Since the
 circuit
 is not perfect, there is cycle to cycle variation in the 10 MHz. It’s way
 more
 jitter (measured in picoseconds) than the oscillator has due to phase
 noise.
 My concern is that a counter might be bothered by this is some subtle
 way.

 Bob

 On Nov 22, 2014, at 3:55 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Hi Bob: no. cobble, not double :-)  A little research has me thinking I
 can
 easily adapt a morion. I can try it at least by starting with the morion
 on
 an
 external power supply and patching the output and control voltages in to
 the
 sr.

 The sr620 has a control circuit which apparently accomplishes your
 suggestions; they claim to use the internal oscillator for short term
 and
 lock it to a supplied external source for longer term. Probably has a
 long
 time constant on the built-in phase lock to do this.

 Anyhow, autocal calibrates everything except, guess what, the 10 mhz
 source.
 Thats done separately.
 So a bootup self check shows OK even if the frequency standard is way
 off.

 Onward and upward.
 Don

 Bob Camp
 Hi

 I believe that the SR620 uses a “true” 10 MHz OCXO. I would be careful
 using a
 5 MHz doubled to 10 OCXO. The counter may or may not be happy with
 sub-harmonic induced jitter.

 Best bet at the specs:

 +12V power
 0-5V EFC
 Sine wave out +7dbm

 +/- 5x10^-9 0 to 70C

 Pinout - trace what you have.

 Bob

 On Nov 21, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:


 So, I got a reasonable deal on a SR620 ho ho. Know your dealer. The
 ocxo
 is
 out of tolerance. All self tests pass with flying colors, autocal
 works
 as
 well. So the best parts are OK.
 Does anyone:
 1) have a spare Isotemp OCXO36-53 10.000 MHz  p/n 6-00051?
 2) know the specs, ie the input voltage/current and the control
 voltage
 span
 and direction? pinout?
 I have some Morion mv-89's  and could easily cobble

Re: [time-nuts] ocxo

[Don Latham]

Schematics in KO4BB magnificent storehouse.

Neil Schroeder
 Did we answer the q? about schematics?

 All of SRS's products have their block diagram and parts list with a
 detailed circuit description in their user manual.  Sneak preview: its all
 resistors.

 NS

 On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 4:22 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 No question about that. The morion does run a little warmer than the old
 unit
 apparently did. Fan is temp-controlled, so I think OK. will monitor box
 temp
 with a digital :-) thermometer, very poor resolution, but probably ok.
 When I get the last obs done. will do a little blurb to the group.
 Don

 Bob Camp
  Hi
 
  That sounds fine. Without knowing just what they did or didn’t do, it’s
 always
  worth being a bit careful.
 
  Bob
 
  On Nov 23, 2014, at 6:40 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:
 
  Running very nearly continuously for about 4 days now. The self-measured
  jitter is mean 0 and sdev of 8 ps. I don't think there is a problem
 with the
  Morion. I'm using my newly acquired cs source and a couple of z3801's
 for
  checking. 1 bit on the SR's frequency calibration dac seems to be about
 4-5
  parts in 10^-10 if I'm reading things right. Next test is a z3801
 driving
  the
  external freq port on the sr to see if the frequency change direction
 of the
  morion is OK.
  The scope display output from the SR620 is great!
  Lots to learn. Also have one of Said's units coming. Gone nuts for time,
  won't
  do anything much new, but it's new to me. All this to drive
 moonbounce...
  Don
 
 
  Bob Camp
  Hi
 
  If all the “good stuff” runs on the 90 MHz, the 5 MHz issue may not be
  important at all. It’s just something to watch for. If you start seeing
  data
  in two groups, each one 20 ps wide and separated by maybe 200 ps, you
 are
  seeing a problem from the 5 MHz.
 
  Running the box for a while before doing a full detailed cal is a very
 good
  idea. It’s a bit warm inside and some of the stuff is temperature
  sensitive.
  You want it to reach equilibrium.
 
  Bob
 
  On Nov 23, 2014, at 1:06 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:
 
  Ah. Got it finally!  Doh. Just finished trying out the Morion this
  afternoon.
  Electrically works very well. Used a 7812 to drop the +15 volts from
 the
  option 1 ocxo, there is enough power headroom to bring the Morion up
 from
  cold
  and run it comfortably. As you said, the control voltage for the
 original
  is
  indeed 5 v, and can be set by the internal d/a. The output of the
  oscillator
  passes through an emitter follower voltage adjuster and through a
 low-q
  filter
  to three stages of ECL buffer and then out to the 10 MHz system bus
 clock.
  Another path proceeds to a relay-switched divide by 2 to the phase
  detector
  so
  an external 5/10 MHz source can lock the internal oscillator.
  The external 5/10 MHz source proceeds to the phase detector thru an
  identical
  buffer chain without the switched divider.  The remainder of the clock
  circuits is a multiplier to 90 MHz.
 
  I'll run the autocal tomorrow and then get some jitter stats if
 possible.
  This
  is an early specimen, s/n about 700 or so. I can imagine seldom used,
 and
  sitting on standby for 20 years or so, pushing the ocxo out of
 tolerance.
 
  The saga continues; I may have to look for a 10 MHz replacement on
 epay,
  there
  isn't room to put in an Hp, unfortunately.
  Don
 
 
 
 
  Bob Camp
  Hi
 
  At least the Morion’s I have seen have 5 MHz crystals in them rather
 than
  10
  MHz. They have a 10 MHz output due to an internal doubler. Since the
  circuit
  is not perfect, there is cycle to cycle variation in the 10 MHz.
 It’s way
  more
  jitter (measured in picoseconds) than the oscillator has due to phase
  noise.
  My concern is that a counter might be bothered by this is some subtle
  way.
 
  Bob
 
  On Nov 22, 2014, at 3:55 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:
 
  Hi Bob: no. cobble, not double :-)  A little research has me
 thinking I
  can
  easily adapt a morion. I can try it at least by starting with the
 morion
  on
  an
  external power supply and patching the output and control voltages
 in to
  the
  sr.
 
  The sr620 has a control circuit which apparently accomplishes your
  suggestions; they claim to use the internal oscillator for short
 term
  and
  lock it to a supplied external source for longer term. Probably
 has a
  long
  time constant on the built-in phase lock to do this.
 
  Anyhow, autocal calibrates everything except, guess what, the 10 mhz
  source.
  Thats done separately.
  So a bootup self check shows OK even if the frequency standard is
 way
  off.
 
  Onward and upward.
  Don
 
  Bob Camp
  Hi
 
  I believe that the SR620 uses a “true” 10 MHz OCXO. I would be
 careful
  using a
  5 MHz doubled to 10 OCXO. The counter may or may not be happy with
  sub-harmonic induced jitter.
 
  Best bet at the specs:
 
  +12V power
  0-5V EFC
  Sine wave out +7dbm
 
  +/- 5x10^-9 0 to 70C
 
  Pinout - trace

Re: [time-nuts] ocxo

[Don Latham]

From the manual, I infer the dac is 10 bit. ( 4096 max count) Span is 5 volts.
I've connected the gpsdo and the clock error light does not light; I'm
assuming the morion is locking to the gpsdo OK. I do have the original, was
going to open it up sometime. I suspect something wrong with the heater.
Should just start by measuring current into + and - 15 volts.
I think that Said's device could just be put inside the SR fb, and convert the
external input bnc to the gps antenna. No sweat. Even the low end clock osc
would work quite well, no fancy ocxo needed. SR can also be used with internal
clock if needed. The dac value is saved so the internal osc is automatically
calibrated by this technique.
I'm really impressed by this box! A lot of thought went into it.
Don

Bob Camp
 Hi

 About the only other question would be the proper resolution for the DAC.
 There’s not much of a way to to answer that one without playing with a woking
 original OCXO.

 Bob

 On Nov 23, 2014, at 7:22 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 No question about that. The morion does run a little warmer than the old
 unit
 apparently did. Fan is temp-controlled, so I think OK. will monitor box temp
 with a digital :-) thermometer, very poor resolution, but probably ok.
 When I get the last obs done. will do a little blurb to the group.
 Don

 Bob Camp
 Hi

 That sounds fine. Without knowing just what they did or didn’t do, it’s
 always
 worth being a bit careful.

 Bob

 On Nov 23, 2014, at 6:40 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Running very nearly continuously for about 4 days now. The self-measured
 jitter is mean 0 and sdev of 8 ps. I don't think there is a problem with
 the
 Morion. I'm using my newly acquired cs source and a couple of z3801's for
 checking. 1 bit on the SR's frequency calibration dac seems to be about
 4-5
 parts in 10^-10 if I'm reading things right. Next test is a z3801 driving
 the
 external freq port on the sr to see if the frequency change direction of
 the
 morion is OK.
 The scope display output from the SR620 is great!
 Lots to learn. Also have one of Said's units coming. Gone nuts for time,
 won't
 do anything much new, but it's new to me. All this to drive moonbounce...
 Don


 Bob Camp
 Hi

 If all the “good stuff” runs on the 90 MHz, the 5 MHz issue may not be
 important at all. It’s just something to watch for. If you start seeing
 data
 in two groups, each one 20 ps wide and separated by maybe 200 ps, you are
 seeing a problem from the 5 MHz.

 Running the box for a while before doing a full detailed cal is a very
 good
 idea. It’s a bit warm inside and some of the stuff is temperature
 sensitive.
 You want it to reach equilibrium.

 Bob

 On Nov 23, 2014, at 1:06 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Ah. Got it finally!  Doh. Just finished trying out the Morion this
 afternoon.
 Electrically works very well. Used a 7812 to drop the +15 volts from the
 option 1 ocxo, there is enough power headroom to bring the Morion up
 from
 cold
 and run it comfortably. As you said, the control voltage for the
 original
 is
 indeed 5 v, and can be set by the internal d/a. The output of the
 oscillator
 passes through an emitter follower voltage adjuster and through a low-q
 filter
 to three stages of ECL buffer and then out to the 10 MHz system bus
 clock.
 Another path proceeds to a relay-switched divide by 2 to the phase
 detector
 so
 an external 5/10 MHz source can lock the internal oscillator.
 The external 5/10 MHz source proceeds to the phase detector thru an
 identical
 buffer chain without the switched divider.  The remainder of the clock
 circuits is a multiplier to 90 MHz.

 I'll run the autocal tomorrow and then get some jitter stats if
 possible.
 This
 is an early specimen, s/n about 700 or so. I can imagine seldom used,
 and
 sitting on standby for 20 years or so, pushing the ocxo out of
 tolerance.

 The saga continues; I may have to look for a 10 MHz replacement on epay,
 there
 isn't room to put in an Hp, unfortunately.
 Don




 Bob Camp
 Hi

 At least the Morion’s I have seen have 5 MHz crystals in them rather
 than
 10
 MHz. They have a 10 MHz output due to an internal doubler. Since the
 circuit
 is not perfect, there is cycle to cycle variation in the 10 MHz. It’s
 way
 more
 jitter (measured in picoseconds) than the oscillator has due to phase
 noise.
 My concern is that a counter might be bothered by this is some subtle
 way.

 Bob

 On Nov 22, 2014, at 3:55 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Hi Bob: no. cobble, not double :-)  A little research has me thinking
 I
 can
 easily adapt a morion. I can try it at least by starting with the
 morion
 on
 an
 external power supply and patching the output and control voltages in
 to
 the
 sr.

 The sr620 has a control circuit which apparently accomplishes your
 suggestions; they claim to use the internal oscillator for short term
 and
 lock it to a supplied external source for longer term. Probably has
 a
 long
 time constant

Re: [time-nuts] ocxo

[Don Latham]

The 90 MHz is multiplied up from the 10 MHz, no pll.  Done with a 10 mhz rate
5 ns pulse and a filter chain, followed by a comparator and buffer.

from the manual:
The SR620 has a rear panel input that will accept either a 5 or 10Mhz external
timebase. The SR620 phaselocks its internal timebase to this reference. The
phase-locked loop has a bandwidth of about 20Hz and thus the characteristics
the the SR620's clock, for measurement times longer than 50ms, become that of
the external source. For shorter measurement times the clock characteristics
are unimportant compared to the internal jitter (25ps rms) of the SR620. Thus,
if the signal from a Cesium clock is input into a SR620 with a standard TCXO
oscillator the short-term and long-term stability of the SR620 will become
that of the Cesium clock.

Yes, all jitter is relative...

Don

Bob Camp
 Hi

 The ADEV of the reference source (OCXO / external reference) will most
 certainly impact the performance of the counter. The device is just comparing
 the input signal to the reference. Which ever one has the worse stability will
 limit the measurement. At some point (inside the 90 MHz VCXO’s PLL) jitter on
 the reference is no different than jitter on the signal you are trying to
 measure. If they do as many do, there’s a PLL that locks the OCXO up to the
 external reference through a narrowband loop. You then have two filter corners
 to worry about. One between the 90 MHz and the OCXO, the other between the
 external ref and the OCXO.

 Bob

 On Nov 23, 2014, at 8:48 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 From the manual, I infer the dac is 10 bit. ( 4096 max count) Span is 5
 volts.
 I've connected the gpsdo and the clock error light does not light; I'm
 assuming the morion is locking to the gpsdo OK. I do have the original, was
 going to open it up sometime. I suspect something wrong with the heater.
 Should just start by measuring current into + and - 15 volts.
 I think that Said's device could just be put inside the SR fb, and convert
 the
 external input bnc to the gps antenna. No sweat. Even the low end clock osc
 would work quite well, no fancy ocxo needed. SR can also be used with
 internal
 clock if needed. The dac value is saved so the internal osc is automatically
 calibrated by this technique.
 I'm really impressed by this box! A lot of thought went into it.
 Don

 Bob Camp
 Hi

 About the only other question would be the proper resolution for the DAC.
 There’s not much of a way to to answer that one without playing with a
 woking
 original OCXO.

 Bob

 On Nov 23, 2014, at 7:22 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 No question about that. The morion does run a little warmer than the old
 unit
 apparently did. Fan is temp-controlled, so I think OK. will monitor box
 temp
 with a digital :-) thermometer, very poor resolution, but probably ok.
 When I get the last obs done. will do a little blurb to the group.
 Don

 Bob Camp
 Hi

 That sounds fine. Without knowing just what they did or didn’t do, it’s
 always
 worth being a bit careful.

 Bob

 On Nov 23, 2014, at 6:40 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Running very nearly continuously for about 4 days now. The self-measured
 jitter is mean 0 and sdev of 8 ps. I don't think there is a problem with
 the
 Morion. I'm using my newly acquired cs source and a couple of z3801's
 for
 checking. 1 bit on the SR's frequency calibration dac seems to be about
 4-5
 parts in 10^-10 if I'm reading things right. Next test is a z3801
 driving
 the
 external freq port on the sr to see if the frequency change direction of
 the
 morion is OK.
 The scope display output from the SR620 is great!
 Lots to learn. Also have one of Said's units coming. Gone nuts for time,
 won't
 do anything much new, but it's new to me. All this to drive
 moonbounce...
 Don


 Bob Camp
 Hi

 If all the “good stuff” runs on the 90 MHz, the 5 MHz issue may not be
 important at all. It’s just something to watch for. If you start seeing
 data
 in two groups, each one 20 ps wide and separated by maybe 200 ps, you
 are
 seeing a problem from the 5 MHz.

 Running the box for a while before doing a full detailed cal is a very
 good
 idea. It’s a bit warm inside and some of the stuff is temperature
 sensitive.
 You want it to reach equilibrium.

 Bob

 On Nov 23, 2014, at 1:06 AM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Ah. Got it finally!  Doh. Just finished trying out the Morion this
 afternoon.
 Electrically works very well. Used a 7812 to drop the +15 volts from
 the
 option 1 ocxo, there is enough power headroom to bring the Morion up
 from
 cold
 and run it comfortably. As you said, the control voltage for the
 original
 is
 indeed 5 v, and can be set by the internal d/a. The output of the
 oscillator
 passes through an emitter follower voltage adjuster and through a
 low-q
 filter
 to three stages of ECL buffer and then out to the 10 MHz system bus
 clock.
 Another path proceeds to a relay-switched divide by 2 to the phase
 detector

Re: [time-nuts] ocxo

[Don Latham]

Hi Bob: no. cobble, not double :-)  A little research has me thinking I can
easily adapt a morion. I can try it at least by starting with the morion on an
external power supply and patching the output and control voltages in to the
sr.

The sr620 has a control circuit which apparently accomplishes your
suggestions; they claim to use the internal oscillator for short term and
lock it to a supplied external source for longer term. Probably has a long
time constant on the built-in phase lock to do this.

Anyhow, autocal calibrates everything except, guess what, the 10 mhz source.
Thats done separately.
So a bootup self check shows OK even if the frequency standard is way off.

Onward and upward.
Don

Bob Camp
 Hi

 I believe that the SR620 uses a “true” 10 MHz OCXO. I would be careful using a
 5 MHz doubled to 10 OCXO. The counter may or may not be happy with
 sub-harmonic induced jitter.

 Best bet at the specs:

 +12V power
 0-5V EFC
 Sine wave out +7dbm

 +/- 5x10^-9 0 to 70C

 Pinout - trace what you have.

 Bob

 On Nov 21, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:


 So, I got a reasonable deal on a SR620 ho ho. Know your dealer. The ocxo is
 out of tolerance. All self tests pass with flying colors, autocal works as
 well. So the best parts are OK.
 Does anyone:
 1) have a spare Isotemp OCXO36-53 10.000 MHz  p/n 6-00051?
 2) know the specs, ie the input voltage/current and the control voltage span
 and direction? pinout?
 I have some Morion mv-89's  and could easily cobble one in if it will work.
 Apparently a correct oscillator must be in place to use an external source,
 if
 I read the manual right.

 3) do we have a source for the schematics for the SR 620?

 The FTS 4060 is up, pumpin' and firmly locked. At least for now. That dealer
 was not lyin'

 Much thanks to all of you.
 The adventure continues


 --
 The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
 have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLC
 17850 Six Mile Road
 Huson, MT, 59846
 mail:  POBox 404
 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
 VOX 406-626-4304
 Skype: buffler2
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] rs-422 rs-232 to fast ethernet converter

[Don Latham]

This kind of device is great, works fine, but hold on to your wallet! I'd look
on epaY for something like this... If bought new, it'll cost more than the
KS...
Don

Graham
 I have been contemplating how I will would like to interface to the
 KS-23461 devices using rs-422.

 One option is a rs-422 to USB cable. Seems easy enough.

 But another option I keep stumbling across is a rs-422/rs-232 to fast
 ethernet such as:

 http://www.transition.com/TransitionNetworks/Products2/Family.aspx?Name=SDSFE3110-120

 Frankly, I have no first hand knowledge or experience with these
 devices. First glance suggests that it might just be what I want - easy
 access to the KS-23461 ports through a connection to my local network
 without having a PC of some sort close by.

 So, any first hand experience with such devices? Good idea or bad?

 cheers, Graham ve3gtc

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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] ocxo

[Don Latham]

Ah. Got it finally!  Doh. Just finished trying out the Morion this afternoon.
Electrically works very well. Used a 7812 to drop the +15 volts from the
option 1 ocxo, there is enough power headroom to bring the Morion up from cold
and run it comfortably. As you said, the control voltage for the original is
indeed 5 v, and can be set by the internal d/a. The output of the oscillator
passes through an emitter follower voltage adjuster and through a low-q filter
to three stages of ECL buffer and then out to the 10 MHz system bus clock.
Another path proceeds to a relay-switched divide by 2 to the phase detector so
an external 5/10 MHz source can lock the internal oscillator.
The external 5/10 MHz source proceeds to the phase detector thru an identical
buffer chain without the switched divider.  The remainder of the clock
circuits is a multiplier to 90 MHz.

I'll run the autocal tomorrow and then get some jitter stats if possible. This
is an early specimen, s/n about 700 or so. I can imagine seldom used, and
sitting on standby for 20 years or so, pushing the ocxo out of tolerance.

The saga continues; I may have to look for a 10 MHz replacement on epay, there
isn't room to put in an Hp, unfortunately.
Don




Bob Camp
 Hi

 At least the Morion’s I have seen have 5 MHz crystals in them rather than 10
 MHz. They have a 10 MHz output due to an internal doubler. Since the circuit
 is not perfect, there is cycle to cycle variation in the 10 MHz. It’s way more
 jitter (measured in picoseconds) than the oscillator has due to phase noise.
 My concern is that a counter might be bothered by this is some subtle way.

 Bob

 On Nov 22, 2014, at 3:55 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Hi Bob: no. cobble, not double :-)  A little research has me thinking I can
 easily adapt a morion. I can try it at least by starting with the morion on
 an
 external power supply and patching the output and control voltages in to the
 sr.

 The sr620 has a control circuit which apparently accomplishes your
 suggestions; they claim to use the internal oscillator for short term and
 lock it to a supplied external source for longer term. Probably has a long
 time constant on the built-in phase lock to do this.

 Anyhow, autocal calibrates everything except, guess what, the 10 mhz source.
 Thats done separately.
 So a bootup self check shows OK even if the frequency standard is way off.

 Onward and upward.
 Don

 Bob Camp
 Hi

 I believe that the SR620 uses a “true” 10 MHz OCXO. I would be careful
 using a
 5 MHz doubled to 10 OCXO. The counter may or may not be happy with
 sub-harmonic induced jitter.

 Best bet at the specs:

 +12V power
 0-5V EFC
 Sine wave out +7dbm

 +/- 5x10^-9 0 to 70C

 Pinout - trace what you have.

 Bob

 On Nov 21, 2014, at 6:59 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:


 So, I got a reasonable deal on a SR620 ho ho. Know your dealer. The ocxo
 is
 out of tolerance. All self tests pass with flying colors, autocal works as
 well. So the best parts are OK.
 Does anyone:
 1) have a spare Isotemp OCXO36-53 10.000 MHz  p/n 6-00051?
 2) know the specs, ie the input voltage/current and the control voltage
 span
 and direction? pinout?
 I have some Morion mv-89's  and could easily cobble one in if it will
 work.
 Apparently a correct oscillator must be in place to use an external
 source,
 if
 I read the manual right.

 3) do we have a source for the schematics for the SR 620?

 The FTS 4060 is up, pumpin' and firmly locked. At least for now. That
 dealer
 was not lyin'

 Much thanks to all of you.
 The adventure continues


 --
 The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
 who
 have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLC
 17850 Six Mile Road
 Huson, MT, 59846
 mail:  POBox 404
 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
 VOX 406-626-4304
 Skype: buffler2
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


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 To unsubscribe, go to
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 and follow the instructions there.




 --
 The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
 have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLC
 17850 Six Mile Road
 Huson, MT, 59846
 mail:  POBox 404
 Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
 VOX 406-626-4304
 Skype: buffler2
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com


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 To unsubscribe

[time-nuts] ocxo

[Don Latham]

So, I got a reasonable deal on a SR620 ho ho. Know your dealer. The ocxo is
out of tolerance. All self tests pass with flying colors, autocal works as
well. So the best parts are OK.
Does anyone:
1) have a spare Isotemp OCXO36-53 10.000 MHz  p/n 6-00051?
2) know the specs, ie the input voltage/current and the control voltage span
and direction? pinout?
I have some Morion mv-89's  and could easily cobble one in if it will work.
Apparently a correct oscillator must be in place to use an external source, if
I read the manual right.

3) do we have a source for the schematics for the SR 620?

The FTS 4060 is up, pumpin' and firmly locked. At least for now. That dealer
was not lyin'

Much thanks to all of you.
The adventure continues


-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Yet another GPSDO

[Don Latham]

big 7 table

Don
Bob Camp
 Hi

 The guy’s email *might* be: bg7...@126.com

 That also could be something else entirely.

 Bob

 On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:34 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:


 Hi

 … and indeed it is one. There are a whole range of this and that pieces of
 test gear designed by the guy.

 Bob

 On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:28 PM, Alan Hochhalter alanh...@gmail.com wrote:

 BG7TBL sounds like an amateur radio callsign.

 Alan

 On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

 Hi

 I’d say this has the look of a hobby / semi-pro project. I’ve seen several
 of them done in other areas. Somebody comes up with a pile of parts at the
 local market and does a board that at least sort of makes them work. Often
 they are based on some sort of open source effort.  Without more
 information, this is very much a “who knows” sort of thing.

 Bob

 On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:19 PM, Arthur Dent golgarfrinc...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 You can see a similar product by this seller direct -

 http://www.cart100.com/seller/bg7tbl/
 http://www.cart100.com/Product/38848104218/

 Looks like a similar product at almost 3 time the Ebay price.
 There are more photos at the second link under 'specifications'
 and you can read MV89A on the Morion oscillator and see some
 wires patching an error on the bottom of the PC board. Note that
 the seller also has a frequency doubler at about $10.

 -Arthur
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Division Circuit

[Don Latham]

Thanks. You reminded me of the time when design ideas really had content. No
more, I'm afraid...
Don

Azelio Boriani
 No need to digitize, the article is available here:
 http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4347165/Circuit-divides-frequency-by-N-1
 or here (in .PDF):
 ftp://ztchs.p.lodz.pl/PRP/PRP_2006_2007/71102di.pdf

 On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts
 time-nuts@febo.com wrote:
 List,



 I’ve digitized and edited an article titled* Circuit DividesFrequency by N+1
 by Bert Erickson, Fayetteville, NY from EDN 7/11/2002*.



 Essentially, this circuit is expandable and allows for adivision by any
 number plus one.



 Anyone who wants a PDF copy please send me an original emailoff list.



 Regards,



 Perrier


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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] strange carrier

[Don Latham]

7.6 Hz is very close to the Schumann resonance fundamental.
Don

Doug Ronald
 I'm working on my WWVB BPSK receiver and am receiving a carrier, 10 dB
 stronger than WWVB in Sunnyvale, California, quite stable, on the air 24/7
 at a frequency of 59.99240 kHz. I have researched on Internet what it might
 be, with no results. I have turned off all switch mode power supplies at my
 location with no effect. The carrier is so stable that it seems like it must
 be something intentionally generated. I have not tried nulling it out with
 my directional antenna yet.



 Anyone have a clue as to what I might be receiving?



 Thanks,

 -Doug Ronald

 W6DSR





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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle

[Don Latham]

It's interesting. I took the hint, and tried sin(a)*sin(b) expand and set
b=a+pi/2. fun fun fun.
All that's needed in theory is a mixer and a pi/2 phase shifter at 5 MHz.
Probably a bunch of other stuff because of real parts :-) Minicircuits will
sell you one, packaged, for about 50 rasbucknicks.
Don

Dave M
 I am able to download the files associated with the article, but not the
 article itself.  Guess I need to be a paying member to get the article.  The
 only files in the download are the XLS file for calculating the filter
 values, and the parts list.

 It's at http://www.arrl.org/qexfiles in the year 2011 listings, filename
 3x11_Roos.zip
 titled Converting a Vintage 5 MHz Frequency Standard to 10 MHz with a Low
 Spurious Frequency Doubler

 Dave M

 John C. Roos via time-nuts wrote:
 Several list members contacted me expressing interest in the
 article. None of them were able to download much or anything
 from the ARRL QEX web site. That includes me and other ARRL members.
 I am working the issue with one call to ARRL so far today. I will
 contact Larry Wolfgang at ARRL and see what Ican bust loose. So
 hang in there. It is a cute technique, not originated by me, but
 useful. Right now I have to get the ARRL FMT done first.
 -73 john c roos k6iql


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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Quad Driven Mixer 5 to 10 MHz Doubler Atricle

[Don Latham]

I digitized the first 2011 article to hand, the one in Jan-Feb; it's a smaller
article, and not as elegant as the later one. Anyone interested can email me
off-list. You're allowed to have a copy for your own use, just can't
re-publish.
Don

Jim Sanford
 I'm a member, and the article is not there -- just the Excel spreadsheet
 and a Word document of the parts list.
 Too bad, I have a handful of 5 MHzx TCXOs.
 I may have hardcopy of the issue, will have to dig for it.

 Jim
 wb4...@amsat.org

 On 11/12/2014 3:34 PM, Dave M wrote:
 I am able to download the files associated with the article, but not
 the article itself.  Guess I need to be a paying member to get the
 article.  The only files in the download are the XLS file for
 calculating the filter values, and the parts list.

 It's at http://www.arrl.org/qexfiles in the year 2011 listings,
 filename 3x11_Roos.zip
 titled Converting a Vintage 5 MHz Frequency Standard to 10 MHz with a
 Low Spurious Frequency Doubler

 Dave M

 John C. Roos via time-nuts wrote:
 Several list members contacted me expressing interest in the
 article. None of them were able to download much or anything
 from the ARRL QEX web site. That includes me and other ARRL members.
 I am working the issue with one call to ARRL so far today. I will
 contact Larry Wolfgang at ARRL and see what Ican bust loose. So
 hang in there. It is a cute technique, not originated by me, but
 useful. Right now I have to get the ARRL FMT done first.
 -73 john c roos k6iql


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 ---
 This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
 protection is active.
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 GPSDO question

[Don Latham]

You can get anything you want...
GandalfG8--- via time-nuts
 In a message dated 09/11/2014 21:33:48 GMT Standard Time,
 t...@leapsecond.com writes:

 and 27  8×10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph
 on the back  of each one.
 Now that's not something I've heard for a while:-)

 Nigel
 GM8PZR

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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

[Don Latham]

Hello all:
A little more digging provides the system name: it's a FLEXENT.
The reference and a document list are in:

http://www.prtc.net/~dixonvaldes/CDMA%20Lazyan2.htm

If I go to alcatel/lucent, I arrive at the following site for the flexent 
system:

https://support.alcatel-lucent.com/portal/productContent.do?productId=nullentryId=1-02115

there are indications that documents, including the one we seek, are
available, behind the golden key.
Anybody have an alcatel account?
We're close!
And thanks to (lost in the big list of emails) whoever came up with the
document name!
Don


-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] pn3048 software

[Don Latham]

Hi Ivan: I agree about the usefulness of noise sources. Also good with my
spectrum analyzer for filters, amps, etc.
But I haven't sen any cheap ones on ebay at least, HP's and equivalents are
around $1000 or so. Am I looking for the right thing?
Don

Ivan.Cousins
 Does anyone else have the pn3048 software running on a PC-gpib system?

 http://www.ke5fx.com/pn3048.htm

 It has been a number of years since I have used a HP3048A-HP11848A system.
 I have two HP11848A test sets and a spare PC or two with NI GPIB cards.

 It looks like this will be much easier to use than the old HP 9236 computer.

 What trials and tribulations have people had in setting up a system with
 that software?

 One of the things that can be done is determining the noise floor of the
 system.
 To determine the noise floor I have used a noise generator with a
 programmable step attenuator through a resistive combiner with the
 oscillator under test output.

 Increase the attenuation until the noise source on-off level is
 undetectable.
 This is an easy way to measure the system noise floor.
 Noise sources are usually cheap on ebay because most people do not know
 how to use them.
 As an RF designer they are easy to use for testing receivers.

 Ivan Cousins
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have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26

[Don Latham]

Bob and all: Haven't hookedd upmy units yet. Marlon P Jones (MPJA) has some
Real Cheap 15 pin m-m cables that are 1 ft long, might be useful. no clipped
pins, whatever they're for. I don't think many of us want to hot-plug that
cable?
Don

Bob Camp

 My boxes were flakey at first. What I finally figured out was that the
 interface cable was the weak link. I’d bet that the short pins don’t mate
 quite well enough with their sockets. After some wiggling all has been ok for
 a while.


-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26

[Don Latham]

Does anyone know if Forth is the native tongue of these boards? I have yet to
fire my pair up.
Don

Bob Stewart
 Hi Bob,
 I am only able to communicate with my system through the REF-0/slave unit.  I
 had thought this was normal behavior till someone, you perhaps, posted that
 that was not correct.  So, I've emailed Aecis to request a replacement REF-1.
 Bob From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
  Sent: Sunday, November 2, 2014 8:20 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124,
 Issue 26

 HI

 So at least there is one way communications from the GPS box to the slave box.

 Bidirectional com would be a bit complex given the lack of UART’s on the pc
 board. I’d bet it just runs through a standard set of messages on the GPS and
 watches the results. The way to quickly prove I’m wrong would be to issue a
 command to the GPS from the slave that it must respond to. Something like go
 into survey mode or set the location to xxx yyy zzz.  I’ve certainly been
 wrong before.

 I suppose they could do dual source TTL com directly at the GPS module level.
 I’d think that would drive the GPS unit a bit nuts when the slave started
 switching things around….

 Bob


 On Nov 2, 2014, at 4:16 PM, n2lym n2...@optonline.net wrote:

 Yes the diagnostic port on the slave unit diaplay's gps data just like the
 Z3811. Therefore there must be serial data being exchanged on the 15 pin
 interconnect.


 Mike

 N2LYM





 Message: 5
 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2014 15:58:20 -0500
 From: gandal...@aol.com
 To: time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A,
 Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...
 Message-ID: 868c5.58494d20.4187f...@aol.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 Just another thought though, does the diagnostic port on the slave also
 communicate with SatStat etc?

 That would imply at least a transfer of serial data in one  direction, even
 if not for the control functions.

 Regards

 Nigel
 GM8PZR
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 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Mercury Ion Clock

[Don Latham]

Absolutely! but it's not just the price of the hardware. The clock has mercury
in it. Horrors! So the paperwork involved with the EPA, OSHA, and who knows
what other agency will cost more than the hardware. Best stick with a hydrogen
clock, just stick an icepick in it when you want to get rid of it; pt and
it's done. Safer than your old refrigerator. :-)

seriously, tn's, see:
http://www.microsemi.com/document-portal/doc_view/133441-rubidium-devices-material-safety-data-sheet

Don

paul swed
 Magnus,
 But for a time-nut how can price even enter into the conversation? Plus it
 only draws 10s of watts. A green super duper clock. Other comment I read is
 that there is no part that will wear out. Granted I suspect over many years
 something happens, but its not the typical CS depletion. I might speculate
 the glass windows fog or something or on earth the evacuated chamber
 ultimately leaks or the metal in the vacuum release stuff.
 No idea but pretty sure I won't be putting a watch on ebay any time soon.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 6:42 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
 wrote:

 Hi Bob,

 The traditional Hg ion clock with it's 40,5 GHz frequency is doable, but
 it would be interesting if it could be commercialized at a (time-nuts)
 friendly price.

 The modern optical clock got much easier to work with when the frequency
 comb was invented. The frequency comb and stable lasers is now
 commercialized, but not cheap, not cheap at all.

 Cheers,
 Magnus


 On 11/01/2014 02:27 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

 Hi

 Trapped ion clocks have been the “obvious successor” to a Cs tube for at
 least 30 years. There is a *lot* of very fancy work involved in getting
 from 10 MHz up to a very specific light wavelength with low ADEV and good
 phase noise…..

 Rocket science indeed. Time Nuts rocket science, but tough to do none the
 less.

 Bob

  On Oct 31, 2014, at 8:09 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Humor aside. I did dig deeper. It seems that this technology could be
 commercialized in larger volumes and might land in the same cost as a
 good
 CS does today. Technically it looks reasonable.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:45 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

  Jim
 I am sorry to say thats the wrong clock picture.
 That picture is of 2 glass coffee tables and a toaster in between.
 I see you can order that art om ebay. Item number 142657nottoday3245
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote:

  OK, I know you all want to go get one...

 http://discoverjpl.jpl.nasa.gov/posts/520

 It's Bob Tjoelker in front of the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) being
 tested for magnetic field sensitivity.  It's a trapped ion clock, 1
 liter/1
 kg, orders and orders of magnitude better than a USO in performance.

 (if it's in the building I think it's in, the rebar is made of
 non-magnetic stainless steel)
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-- 
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have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite module and the pendulum...

[Don Latham]

Also have this problem with capacitor-adjusted tuning. No matterhow careful
you turn, stiction causes the adjustment to jump in the direction of the turn.
Don

John Miles
 Great insight thanks. You nailed it: out with the old oscillator and in with
 one
 that doesn't have that problem.

 Btw the mechanical tuning issue you mentioned is essentially the same exact
 problem: even the slightest turn will make the frequency jump too high or
 too
 low. It can drive you (and the loop) crazy trying to get it on-frequency.

 Whenever I've seen this behavior, it has always been caused by uncertainty or
 quantization on the part of the trimpot's wiper, rather than anything that
 could be blamed on the varactor.  What would be a good example of a TCXO or
 OCXO model that exhibits EFC hysteresis?  I don't immediately understand what
 could cause this phenomenon, and I'd like to reproduce it here to see what's
 happening.

 -- john, KE5FX
 Miles Design LLC


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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Where the 5370's are...

[Don Latham]

While a student at NMTech in Socorro, NM, longer ago than I care to 
mention,  I was told upon trying to make a purchase on the phone from a 
firm in New York...we don't accept foreign currency

some things don't change much
Don

On 10/18/2014 9:18 PM, John Seamons wrote:
while they try and decide, again, if New Mexico is really a legitimate 
US state.



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Re: [time-nuts] Where the 5370's are...

[Don Latham]

yep. Actually, my wife worked in Socorro on the second-to-last manual 
telephone exchange in the US. Our phone number was 49J. If I remember 
right, it was an 8-party line. No secrets!

Don

On 10/18/2014 10:24 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

if New Mexico is really a legitimate US state.

I dunno, I've been there.  Was exposed to bubonic plague.  And a friend caught some 
wonderful blue corn tortilla parasite.  And the interstate highway was two 
narrow strips of asphalt (one for each pair of wheels) separated by a few feet of grass.  
And the phone numbers were four digits long.   
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Re: [time-nuts] 5370 extender boards

[Don Latham]

I'll just echo. 5370 boards very pro and a bargain. Nice mindless job to put
together, a break from trying to get a dual boot win7/linux mint compuetr
going. pfui.
Don

paul swed
 I wasn't going to post but Like Bill I received my 5370 and TM500 boards
 yesterday. That was fast and agree with the quality. A nice add for the TM
 500 is the use of ribbon cable sockets and ribbon cables that will
 accelerate assembly dramatically.
 Was dreading the ribbon cable trimming and soldering.
 Regards
 Paul
 WB8TSL

 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 4:36 PM, BIll Ezell w...@quackers.net wrote:

 I just got my extender board kit, just want to say the board quality is
 great. I have to give kudos to M.S., very quick ship, perfect. Now if I
 could just figure out how to adjust those pots on the input board without
 having a screwdriver that's 0.5 long, I'd be all set. :)

 --
 Bill Ezell
 --
 The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck
 will be the day they make vacuum cleaners.

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-- 
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 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] fast switching quiet synthesizer

[Don Latham]

I have two versions of the ADF4351 dds. One is the AD eval board, and the
other the TPI synthesizer
(http://www.rf-consultant.com/calibrated-signal-generator/) at $280 that might
do the job. The latter device performs well. It will be as good as the 4351, I
think. It has a programmable attenuator. A good price.  Requires a Healthy!
USB port.
Don


Magnus Danielson
 You should be able to use DDS test-boards and by timing your last write,
 you should be able to time the frequency jump.

 The STEL-1173 takes 6 bytes, but writing the last one latches all 6
 bytes over to a single 48 bit word. I expect that other DDSes have the
 same distinct transfer-phase if you only look in the datasheet for the
 details.

 Some of the modern DDSes can take 10 MHz directly and step it up
 internally before hitting the DDS core, but it may be that you need to
 synthesize a higher clock from the 10 MHz first.

 Cheers,
 Magnus

 On 10/07/2014 07:02 PM, Jim Lux wrote:

 At work, I'm putting together a multichannel stepped frequency CW radar
 breadboard, and I'm looking for something to serve as a source that I
 can step quickly.
 I'm looking at stepping every millisecond or so.  Right now, I use a
 Ardunino type microcontroller driving a serial DAC driving a VCO, but
 that's a bit wonky and noisy, although it's easy to get the step timing
 right on.  The spectral purity is, shall we say, downright ugly.

 Since I'm going to be doing precision ranging with this, the spectral
 purity has to be reasonably good (not 1E-15 at 1000 seconds good,
 fortunately)..

 I was thinking about a PTS synthesizers  (beloved of time-nuts for all
 kinds of reason), and they're nice because they are quiet, and switch
 really fast (microseconds).  However, they all seem to have BCD or GPIB
 interfaces (only).  Sure, I can code up something on an Arduino or other
 microcontroller to drive the BCD on the PTS, but maybe there's something
 else out there that might work as well?  And is already off the shelf.


 I could hook a Prologix on the back of a PTS with GPIB, and hit it over
 the ethernet, but I'm not sure I'd be able to get the steps to occur
 when I want them (ethernet and determinism do not go well together).

 Maybe some DDS in a box product?  That will take my nice clean 10 MHz
 reference?

 Ultimately, I'm looking at output frequencies in single digit GHz, but
 something that can be mixed/multiplied up will work just fine.

 I'm looking for something that is off the shelf-ey as much as possible.
 Using surplus gear is ok, because I really only need 3 or 4 channels and
 that might be scroungeable, but spending hours wiring up weird adapters
 or locating connectors that haven't been made since 1943 is something
 I'd like to avoid.


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 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Worlds first time code generator and ultimate decoder

[Don Latham]

So who could afford Brush paper? I had hundreds of feet of adding machine
paper (cheap!)

If your fingers ain't purple, you ain't doin' science...
Don


Chuck Harris
 It only appeared that way if you were using the wrong paper for the
 chart recorder.  Those that had needles that moved in an arc also had
 chart paper that was ruled using lines in the T axis, and arcs in
 the X axis.

 -Chuck Harris

 Max Robinson wrote:
 The issue of the recording stylus apparently moving backward along the time
 axis
 shouldn't be a mystery to anyone who remembers the old Brush (brand name)
 galvanic
 chart recorders.  The pen tip moved in an arc rather than rectilinear and
 for slow
 paper movement the graph appeared to move backward in time.  I have no idea
 exactly
 how virtual stylus works in decoding these recordings but it seems possible
 that they
 could account for the recording stylus being moved in an arc rather than a
 straight
 line.

 Regards.

 Max.  K 4 O DS.
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 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Setting Windows XP clock.

[Don Latham]

Whee! Chris: the text box in the xp clock set window is ONE CHARACTER too
short to contain the suggested url. It just gets better and better.
Don

Chris Albertson
 I did see some retries going to time.windows.com.
 I'd suggest changing to 0.north-america.pool.ntp.org if you live in
 North America

 It took several seconds to get time form time.windows.com but
 0.north-america.pool.ntp.org had no delay.

 On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote:

 albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
 1) It is set to use an NTP server called  time.windows.com
 to set the clock.
  3) The above is working as well as it has ever worked.
   Nothing has changed at Microsoft's end.

 It may be more complicated than that.

 time.windows.com is a cname for time.microsoft.akadns.net
 That's Akami's DNS magic to give you the closest/best server.
 I'm in Silicon Valley.  I get either 65.55.56.206 or 64.4.10.33

 64.4.10.33 only works some of the time.  It's not random packet drops.  It
 drops out for a while, then recovers.

 65.55.56.206 is similar, but seems to work more often, at least from my
 hacking of the last few minutes.

 Both IP ranges are assigned to Microsoft.  Neither responds to pings.

 You will probably see different results if you are in a different location.



 --
 These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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 --

 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Setting Windows XP clock.

[Don Latham]

All I can get with any server is
an error occurred while synchronizing. . .
OTH my symmetricom analog network clock is peacefully humming along and has
been for at least a year now. Connected to the same ISP.
Don

Chris Albertson
 I did see some retries going to time.windows.com.
 I'd suggest changing to 0.north-america.pool.ntp.org if you live in
 North America

 It took several seconds to get time form time.windows.com but
 0.north-america.pool.ntp.org had no delay.

 On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote:

 albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
 1) It is set to use an NTP server called  time.windows.com
 to set the clock.
  3) The above is working as well as it has ever worked.
   Nothing has changed at Microsoft's end.

 It may be more complicated than that.

 time.windows.com is a cname for time.microsoft.akadns.net
 That's Akami's DNS magic to give you the closest/best server.
 I'm in Silicon Valley.  I get either 65.55.56.206 or 64.4.10.33

 64.4.10.33 only works some of the time.  It's not random packet drops.  It
 drops out for a while, then recovers.

 65.55.56.206 is similar, but seems to work more often, at least from my
 hacking of the last few minutes.

 Both IP ranges are assigned to Microsoft.  Neither responds to pings.

 You will probably see different results if you are in a different location.



 --
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 --

 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
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 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Setting Windows XP clock.

[Don Latham]

kudos to ya, Daniel. Altering thee registry value works, have to keep ,0x1 at
the end of the string. The textbox keeps the junk, but the message claims
time successfuly set at ...
and the system clock display agrees with my time-nuttery clocks, at least to
the eye.
Only appears in one place in the registry, unambiguous.
Cheers,
Don

Daniel Mendes

 This probably ends in the registry somewere... type some random garbage,
 save, and seach the registry for this string... then edit the registry
 to put the correct url there. Or use a url shortener service

 Daniel


 Em 13/07/2014 17:18, Don Latham escreveu:
 Whee! Chris: the text box in the xp clock set window is ONE CHARACTER too
 short to contain the suggested url. It just gets better and better.
 Don

 Chris Albertson
 I did see some retries going to time.windows.com.
 I'd suggest changing to 0.north-america.pool.ntp.org if you live in
 North America

 It took several seconds to get time form time.windows.com but
 0.north-america.pool.ntp.org had no delay.

 On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net
 wrote:
 albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:
 1) It is set to use an NTP server called  time.windows.com
 to set the clock.
   3) The above is working as well as it has ever worked.
Nothing has changed at Microsoft's end.
 It may be more complicated than that.

 time.windows.com is a cname for time.microsoft.akadns.net
 That's Akami's DNS magic to give you the closest/best server.
 I'm in Silicon Valley.  I get either 65.55.56.206 or 64.4.10.33

 64.4.10.33 only works some of the time.  It's not random packet drops.  It
 drops out for a while, then recovers.

 65.55.56.206 is similar, but seems to work more often, at least from my
 hacking of the last few minutes.

 Both IP ranges are assigned to Microsoft.  Neither responds to pings.

 You will probably see different results if you are in a different
 location.



 --
 These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Setting Windows XP clock.

[Don Latham]

That appears to work as well.
Good on ya
Don

Brian Lloyd
 On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote:

 Whee! Chris: the text box in the xp clock set window is ONE CHARACTER too
 short to contain the suggested url. It just gets better and better.


 pool.ntp.org.

 --
 Brian Lloyd
 Lloyd Aviation
 706 Flightline Drive
 Spring Branch, TX 78070
 br...@lloyd.com
 +1.916.877.5067
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Setting Windows XP clock.

[Don Latham]

I use nmeatime, you can set from the net or from a gps plugged in to the
computer.
Have used it on all my computers for many moons.
http://www.visualgps.net/nmeatime/
Don

Max Robinson
 As some of you no doubt know microshaft has stopped supporting windows XP.
 As part of this they have ceased to correct windows XP clocks.  This seams
 rather small of them as it can't possibly be any inconvenience to them to
 continue to provide this service.

 I have a program on my old 98 box which runs my weather station program.  On
 boot-up it contacts some place and corrects the system clock.  I put it on
 that machine so long ago I don't remember where I got it or who it contacts.
 Does anyone know of a program I can download that will do the same for my XP
 box.  I have no intention of upgrading until this box becomes absolutely
 un-operational.

 Regards.

 Max.  K 4 O DS.

 Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com

 Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
 Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
 Woodworking site
 http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html
 Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

 To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to.
 funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

 To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
 funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com

 To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to
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have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Loran, GPS, Lightning, Timing

[Don Latham]

 Scientific American magazine today is a mere shadow of its former self,
 due mainly to a new publisher imported from Popular Science magazine.
 There is no longer an Amateur Scientist article in each issue.

Amen to that!  It's also turned from reporting to preaching-political!

I always wanted to build the amateur scientist stuff, but there were always
the lines with arrows off the figure to power supply. Wonder if that's why I
have hell boxes full of old power supplies:-)
Probably a darned good thing I didn't build the x-ray tube!
Don

-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO standard interface?

[Don Latham]

Gosh, all we need to do is define a nice flexible software layer between the
GPSDO and the computer, etc. similar to ASCOM for astronomical telescopes.
That way, the layer and all its associated drivers do all the work, and
anyone's GPSDO or computer program will work if the associated drivers are
available or developed. Wow what a deal...
Don

Mark Sims
 There are TSIP commands for doing all those things.  It should be fairly easy
 to adapt them to control your hardware and whatever GPS receiver you are
 using.
 The nice thing about implementing a TSIP interface is being able to use
 existing programs like Tboltmon and Lady Heather (over 30,000 lines of code)
 to monitor and control it.  Also NTP knows how to talk TSIP.



 
 I am planning on the output of at least position, corrected phase error, DAC
 value, ambient temperature, and a few other things.  I also see a need to read
 and write the PID gain and damping factors, but that may just have to be a
 custom tty interface.  It may be that I need to have a pass-through mode to
 give direct access to the receiver for triggering site survey, etc.
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran, GPS, Lightning, Timing

[Don Latham]

Lightning risetimes are slow enough that back-to-back zener diode limiters can
protect the input circuitry for a 1-meter probe. Nothing will stop a direct
strike, even a 12ax7 :-). A series resistor on the input helps.  Actually, a
well-designed active probe antenna, even (shudder) one made by MFJ will be
quite adequate for vlf-ulf phenomena. May have a lo-pass filter that needs
attention.
Measuring the earth/s fair-weather field, 100 v/m or so, or even a field under
a thunderstorm, 5000v/m or higher, would require input impedance in excess of
10^15 ohm. Better is to raise a sharp point, say a sewing needle on a nice
protected teflon or better kel-f insulator, and measure the small current of
around 10 fA. Needs a small breeze to work right. Clean off the spider webs
and wasp nests as needed.
Better is to build a device called a field mill (q.v.) that essentially chops
the field into an AC signal.
Getting too far from time nuttery and into atmospheric electric nuttery :-)

Don



Brian Lloyd
 On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 4:42 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:

 I am currently using a 12AX7 as a ELF preamp and have for years.
 A note in the coldest part of winter preheat the tube low filament voltage.
 They tend to fracture.
 It sits 200 ft from the house as far away in the woods as possible.
 That said and back to the thread. At these frequencies tubes do work. The
 12AX7 can be found on vlf.it and numbers of tubes will work. They run 12 V
 on the plate. They also stand up to nearby lightning very well.
 So Diddier now you have no excuse. I can't wait to implement your design on
 one of my stm boards. Not sure how to get this back on time-nuts topics
 Regards


 Try a 6DJ8 instead of the 12AX7. It has a higher GM and a LOT more
 bandwidth. What kind of risetime are we talking about for a lightning
 strike? And why not a loop antenna? That should provide plenty of signal
 but not destructive voltages.

 I know you are talking about measuring lightning strikes but if you get the
 impedance high enough, you can actually measure the earth's electric field.
 (It is about 200V/m if I recall properly.) Interestingly it is affected by
 the solar flux and solar wind.

 --
 Brian Lloyd
 Lloyd Aviation
 706 Flightline Drive
 Spring Branch, TX 78070
 br...@lloyd.com
 +1.916.877.5067
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Loran, GPS, Lightning, Timing

[Don Latham]

as, ahem, one of the early experimenters of lightning detection, gotta tell
ya, the return stroke risetime is on the order of 1 us. Also, the very
beginning of the waveform, that is the first part of the spike, is connected
with the beginning of the breakdown, hence the location on the ground. 
Subsequent parts of the waveform are due to higher portions of the channel.
Also, there are two polarities of discharge, and the positive discharge
gives a waveform that looks like a cloud discharge that does not strike ground
at all. Those seriously interested should get hold of a copy of Lightning by
Martin Uman; this is bby now old, but is available inexpensively and will get
you started. The original detectors used wideband crossed loops to get
direction and no time of arrival; well before GPS timing. I hadn't looked into
the amateur network!
Vaisala corp has the best USA net, otherwise there is one in Boston and TOA
enterprisesin Florida. U of Washington has a network as well.
Enjoy!  I can tell you after 50 years of dinking with it, Lightning is fun if
ya ain't too close.
Don

Tom Van Baak
 The first input you need is the exact longitude/latitude of the
 lightning bolt.

 The easiest way to do that is with a set of GPS synchronized receivers,
 nd we're back to sqare one!

 That's true for ultimate accuracy. But notice how each strike is seen by
 dozens of observers and each observer knows their (fixed) position and has
 their own local (approximate) clock.

 So it seems to me it's not unlike how GPS works: with enough samples, it
 should be possible to solve for latitude, longitude, and time of each strike.
 Like running GPS in 3D mode rather than position hold (zero D) mode.

 Now the accuracy is clearly not going to be at the nanosecond level. Maybe not
 even microsecond level, since as you mentioned, there are biases and jitter
 and who know what propagation variations.

 But over time, you should be able to converge on differential local clock
 measurements. What I'd like to see is the TDEV of this as a common view time
 transfer method. A couple of hops and we could compare UTC(PHK) with UTC(TVB),
 for example.

 Perhaps another side effect of their lightning project is that it could create
 dynamic propagation maps using the residuals in their massive database. When I
 first owned WWVB gear I thought I had accurate time. After I got GPS, I
 realized that my WWVB receivers now became accurate Colorado-to-Seattle
 weather stations. As they say, one man's error is another man's signal.

 /tvb


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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller Update

[Don Latham]

bang-bang servos do depend on inherent low-pass filtering by the controlled
device.
Don

saidj...@aol.com
 Tom,

 airflow, or changes in airflow are typically much worse for ADEV than
 actual ambient temperature changes in still air.

 In still air for example a typical Eurocan DOCXO will have a case temp of
 about 55C to 60C at 25C ambient.

 Turn on any kind of significant airflow over that part and the air
 temperature will be nearly the same as before, but the case of the  DOCXO is
 now
 very quickly cooled to 30C to 40C by the airflow.

 This affects mostly TCXO and single-oven units (including Rb's etc), it
 does very little to DOCXO units typically because the outer oven takes the
 brunt  of the temp change and insulates the inner oven. There are other
 components on  the PCB though next to the DOCXO that will be affected such as
 the
 DAC, DAC  reference, EFC filters, current ground loops due to changing
 heater-current on  the ground pin, etc.

 This even affects TCXO's because they are typically heated by themselves
 and other components on the PCB, and any kind of airflow change will cause an
  instant temp change on the TCXO due to cooling.

 So in my opinion a bang-bang controlled fan near any kind of oscillator is
 about the worst thing one can do for short term stability.

 bye,
 Said


 In a message dated 6/24/2014 13:35:21 Pacific Daylight Time,
 t...@leapsecond.com writes:

  However it is disappointing that no one has stepped up to tackle the
 temperature problem. how many have looked at the temperature  attachment
 and
 clicked on the N5TNL link. Let me make it clear  that yes the GPSDO will
 work but
 there will be one or two orders of  magnitude degradation without active
 fan  temperature control  unless the internal temperature compensation is

  disabled.

 Can you clarify the two orders of magnitude claim? That's  hard for me to
 believe, I think, without seeing the ADEV plots or actual lab  report.

 I mean, even a cheap XO or TCXO or OCXO can be disciplined  against GPS and
 achieve superb results. Temperature (or rather, temperature  rate of
 change) has little effect short-term. Temperature also has little to  zero
 effect
 long-term. So it's only in the, what, tau 100 to 1000 or maybe  1 second
 range that temperature even matters. As long as the LO is locked  to GPS; I
 assume you're not talking about holdover.

 Obviously you'd  want a slightly shorter loop time constant for a
 non-temperature-controlled Rb  than a fancy temperature-controlled Rb. But
 does this
 really make a one or two  *orders of magnitude*  difference?

 /tvb


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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] VNA design

[Don Latham]

Those interested might look at RedPitaya.com for a new piece of hardware that
might be used. Less than $500 without a box
Don

Dr. David Kirkby
 On 2 Jun 2014 15:50, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote:

 I recently got introduced into the usefullness of a VNA. But these
 things are horribly expensive for home use, even if bought from ebay
 (before you say anything, remember i live in europe, where every
 boat anchor hast to travel a long way). But given that most of the
 designs that are on ebay are from the 80s and early 90s, i thought that
 with todays ICs it should be easy to come up with a design that does
 the same thing but can be build on a kitchen table.

 There are a few designs around.  The early version of the VNWA was
 described in QEX. There is the N2PK design too. The latter has a limited
 frequency range, but a high dynamic range.

 All modern professional systems with two ports use 4 receivers.  Earlier
 designs use 3 receivers which is not good for TRL calibration.

 I think it would be a huge task. I think that the main issue would be the
 software.
 I have been considering adding the unknown thru calibration method to my
 HP 8720D. That in itself would be quite a task, but writing all the
 software for a VNA would be a huge task.

 I thought TAPR had a similar project but I don't recall it producing
 anything close to workable.

 BTW the software options for the HP 8753's are now easily available,  so if
 you do buy an 8753 (probably the best choice), don't worry about what
 software options it has.

 I would really like to see an open hardware and software VNA,  but it would
 be a lot of work.

 If you do it, think about having 3 or 4 ports with independent sources for
 optimal balanced measurements.

 I don't think that there's much point producing a design with just a TR
 test set.

 Dave.
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] VNA design

[Don Latham]

Also, a convenient signal source with built-in attenuator:
http://www.rf-consultant.com/calibrated-signal-generator/
Don

Dr. David Kirkby
 On 2 Jun 2014 15:50, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote:

 I recently got introduced into the usefullness of a VNA. But these
 things are horribly expensive for home use, even if bought from ebay
 (before you say anything, remember i live in europe, where every
 boat anchor hast to travel a long way). But given that most of the
 designs that are on ebay are from the 80s and early 90s, i thought that
 with todays ICs it should be easy to come up with a design that does
 the same thing but can be build on a kitchen table.

 There are a few designs around.  The early version of the VNWA was
 described in QEX. There is the N2PK design too. The latter has a limited
 frequency range, but a high dynamic range.

 All modern professional systems with two ports use 4 receivers.  Earlier
 designs use 3 receivers which is not good for TRL calibration.

 I think it would be a huge task. I think that the main issue would be the
 software.
 I have been considering adding the unknown thru calibration method to my
 HP 8720D. That in itself would be quite a task, but writing all the
 software for a VNA would be a huge task.

 I thought TAPR had a similar project but I don't recall it producing
 anything close to workable.

 BTW the software options for the HP 8753's are now easily available,  so if
 you do buy an 8753 (probably the best choice), don't worry about what
 software options it has.

 I would really like to see an open hardware and software VNA,  but it would
 be a lot of work.

 If you do it, think about having 3 or 4 ports with independent sources for
 optimal balanced measurements.

 I don't think that there's much point producing a design with just a TR
 test set.

 Dave.
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox 7

[Don Latham]

Sorry to lose you, Bert.
Evidently a new exclusive group is just what you need.
Don

ewkeh...@aol.com
 Having used lately ublox 6M for GPSDO work I decided to buy a couple of MAX
  7C's on ebay for $ 16.00 181293242043
 Super results.  We are going to do some saw tooth analysis but most  likely
 will not post them because the deterioration of the list has resulted in
 many on the real time nuts have gone away and do like we do every thing off
 list since this has deteriorated in to a chat room with the majority of the
 listings not time or frequency related.
 Serious time nuts can contact me off list and maybe be added to the group.
 We are doing some neat projects.
 Bert Kehren
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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[time-nuts] Fwd: Red Pitaya

[Don Latham]

An interesting piece of hardware.  Reasonable for its capabilities/
Don

Begin forwarded message:

 From: The Red Pitaya Team sa...@redpitaya.com
 Subject: Red Pitaya pre order notification
 Date: April 24, 2014 9:10:14 AM MDT
 To: d...@montana.com d...@montana.com
 Reply-To: The Red Pitaya Team sa...@redpitaya.com
 
 Use this area to offer a short preview of your email's content.
 View this email in your browser
 
 Dear Future Red Pitaya Team Member,
 
 Red Pitaya is now nearly here following our recent exclusive distributor 
 agreement with RS Components Ltd (Europe and APAC) and Allied Electronics Inc 
 (United States and Canada), the trading brands of Electrocomponents plc., the 
 world's leading high service distributor of electronics and maintenance 
 products.
 
 Manufacturing is now underway, with an initial delivery to RS expected during 
 May.
 
 Due to the high levels of interest received for the instrument, it is 
 anticipated that this product will sell quickly and demand may exceed initial 
 stock holding. Therefore, as a valued customer who registered interest in 
 this product, we would like to give you the opportunity to go and place your 
 order today before sales to the general public open onMonday 28th April. 
 
 Thank you for your interest in our product. We look forward to seeing how you 
 and Red Pitaya work together to transform Test and Measurement applications. 
 Don’t forget to revisit www.redpitaya.com to observe fresh ideas and new 
 developments and visitDesignSpark to share your Red Pitaya experiences.
 
 Best regards,
 
 The Red Pitaya Team 
 
 
 
 
  
  
 unsubscribe from this listupdate subscription preferences 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
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 why did I get this?unsubscribe from this listupdate subscription 
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Re: [time-nuts] Clock quality: alternatives to ADEV

[Don Latham]

Tou can try some chaos analysis on the phase space (not the phase of the
signal). It may be that some kinds of shifts are chaotic.
Don
Hal Murray

 I've been watching the discussions and graphs for a while.  ADEV seems
 appropriate for cases where the noise pattern is nice.  How does ADEV work
 if the noise isn't nice?  Are there alternatives?  What's the mathematical
 term for the type of noise that works well with ADEV?

 I can think of 3 examples:
   Crystal jumps
   GPSDOs going into holdover.
   Power lines make all sorts of interesting not-quite jumps.

 Is there a way of characterizing that sort of event?  How do I turn a pile of
 data into a useful graph or chart?

 What does an ADEV graph look like if the data has crystal jumps?

 I'd expect that something like crystal jumps would follow some sort of power
 law: the bigger jumps would be less frequent.  But it wouldn't surprise me if
 the GPS or power lines had an underlying mechanism that turned into a
 different pattern.


 --
 These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Acam TDC's

[Don Latham]

Here is the answer from the US Distributor. I won't be following up,  
Thanksgiving plate already.  If I were buying, I'd get it from the Chinese? 5 
for $70
Don

Thank you for your inquiry. May I please get your company name, location and 
contact information? We have several Sales Managers that handle North America 
and we can send you a formal quotation, however, the price of the TDC 
GP22-EVAL-KIT is $999.00. As far as the chips go, the following represent the 
price breaks:
 
1-9  $24.90
10-49 $20.66
50-99 $16.45
100-249$13.44
250 $11.76
 
The delivery is 2-3 weeks ARO if we do not have inventory.
 
Best Regards,
 
Jim Kunz
 
 
Jim Kunz
National Sales Manager
Precision Measurement Technologies
4400 140th Avenue North, Suite 100
Clearwater, FL 33762
Office: 727-475-6019
Cell:  321-795-3359
jim_k...@pmt-fl.com
www.pmt-fl.com
On Apr 7, 2014, at 11:35 AM, Javier Herrero jherr...@hvsistemas.es wrote:

 On 07.04.2014 18:51, Dan Kemppainen wrote:
 At which resolution do you wish to get 40Msps? Tell me the single-shot
 jitter figure. So far we had only several ksps of throughput in our TDC
 circuit, but the bottleneck lies within a computer interface.
 
 Anyway, it is not an easy task to get some 200MB/s into the computer in a
 sustained fashion. (And to process such amounts of data in real time is
 hard, too.)
 
 The plan was to pair it with a FPGA to make decisions on the data. The
 result of the decisions would have been passed further down the digital
 signal chain. In order to achieve what we needed to see, we would have
 had to measure time with a resolution on the order of 50pS, at a rate of
 30 to 40 million times per second.
 
 Eventually we went to a high bandwidth analog system, and were able
 achieve our goals. It would have been nice to do it digitally, though.
 
 That was a few years ago, and it feels like ancient history now! :)
 Nowadays you could use the TSH788 from TI, 200Msps @ 13ps if I remember well. 
 Once was commented on the list, and I've one piece lying around, but have not 
 yet found time to play with it.
 
 Regards,
 
 Javier
 
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Re: [time-nuts] Acam TDC's

[Don Latham]

AliExpress has them, 5 piece lot for $70 shipping to US $4.21.   One claim I
saw said in quad mode 22 ps resolution. H
Don

paul swed
 Angus
 Yes I did a fast check and couldn't find anyone in the US that seemed to
 carry it. The eval kit looks nice but will speculate its quite costly.
 That said I could see some uses for it like you say it has some things
 built in to eliminate false triggers and such. Just need to know if $1.59
 or $159 each.
 Cheap chips I may play with.
 Regards
 Paul.


 On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Angus not.ag...@btinternet.com wrote:

 Hi,

 It's not exactly cutting edge resolution etc, but for a ready to go
 chip, it's not at all bad. In theory, it looks like it should be
 useful in a lot of the places that counters like a 53131/2 get used,
 but it can sample very much faster than them. It also has useful
 temperature inputs.

 Most of the projects I've come across don't stretch its performance so
 I'm just interested if someone has really tested it.
 If not, I expect I'll find out more when I get it up and running.

 Angus.


 On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 18:27:05 -0400, you wrote:

 Angus
 An interesting chip. I had never heard of it before and suspect this may
 be
 the gizmo used in closed system water leak detection. Won't go into why I
 know about that.
 I did find comments from 2007 about the chip and atmega but nothing since.
 When I went looking for distributors or pricing to get an idea came up
 empty. Though Amazon will sell you lots of vitamins or something called
 TDC.
 
 So with all that said I will guess that for time-nuts purposes the
 capabilities of this chip have been far exceeded by the various array
 technologies we have at very cheap prices today. The ability to create
 long
 counters at very high speeds.
 Only a guess though.
 Regards
 Paul.
 WB8TSL
 
 
 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Angus not.ag...@btinternet.com wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  With all the recent talk of interpolators, I started looking at the
  acam TDC chips again - the GP22 is pretty cheap now for anyone who's
  up for playing with the tiny QFN package.
 
  I was wondering if anyone here has tried them or properly evaluated
  them as a TIC - especially the GP2/GP21/GP22.
 
  A few years back a some folk were talking about it, but I did not hear
  much since that.
 
  Angus.
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Acam TDC's

[Don Latham]

Just requested quotes on chips and eval from american distributor.  Funny you
can buy the chips from the Chinese, no quotes, no fuss and cheap as hell
shipping.  In the US we still sell electronics as if they were 19th century
goods; distributors, jobbers, wholesalers, retail if anyone will inventory 
the stuff.
Maybe Adafruit or somebody like that will offer it on a breakout board?
I'll let you know when I hear. If 22 ps is right, one of these chips and a
Raspberry pi or Beaglebone will be great!

This country is slowly killing itself with layers of goo.
Don

paul swed
 Angus
 Yes I did a fast check and couldn't find anyone in the US that seemed to
 carry it. The eval kit looks nice but will speculate its quite costly.
 That said I could see some uses for it like you say it has some things
 built in to eliminate false triggers and such. Just need to know if $1.59
 or $159 each.
 Cheap chips I may play with.
 Regards
 Paul.


 On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Angus not.ag...@btinternet.com wrote:

 Hi,

 It's not exactly cutting edge resolution etc, but for a ready to go
 chip, it's not at all bad. In theory, it looks like it should be
 useful in a lot of the places that counters like a 53131/2 get used,
 but it can sample very much faster than them. It also has useful
 temperature inputs.

 Most of the projects I've come across don't stretch its performance so
 I'm just interested if someone has really tested it.
 If not, I expect I'll find out more when I get it up and running.

 Angus.


 On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 18:27:05 -0400, you wrote:

 Angus
 An interesting chip. I had never heard of it before and suspect this may
 be
 the gizmo used in closed system water leak detection. Won't go into why I
 know about that.
 I did find comments from 2007 about the chip and atmega but nothing since.
 When I went looking for distributors or pricing to get an idea came up
 empty. Though Amazon will sell you lots of vitamins or something called
 TDC.
 
 So with all that said I will guess that for time-nuts purposes the
 capabilities of this chip have been far exceeded by the various array
 technologies we have at very cheap prices today. The ability to create
 long
 counters at very high speeds.
 Only a guess though.
 Regards
 Paul.
 WB8TSL
 
 
 On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Angus not.ag...@btinternet.com wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  With all the recent talk of interpolators, I started looking at the
  acam TDC chips again - the GP22 is pretty cheap now for anyone who's
  up for playing with the tiny QFN package.
 
  I was wondering if anyone here has tried them or properly evaluated
  them as a TIC - especially the GP2/GP21/GP22.
 
  A few years back a some folk were talking about it, but I did not hear
  much since that.
 
  Angus.
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO simulation tool

[Don Latham]

I agree..  Had a maybe weird thought.   Computing power is now a trivial part
of the problem, in that a Ras.Pi can be put to the task for $35 or so. In
that case, PIDdling with time constants and such in a feedback loop with phase
difference as the error signal is easily done, either in simulation, or for
real, as you point out. So, since ADEV or one of its brothers is the measure
of success of PIDdling, shouldn't the ADEV or brethren be in some way the
error signal for the whole?  For example, how about a TCGPSDO? put the whole
thing in a first-order thermal enclosure, with power-over-ethernet being the
only  external wiring?
Hope I'm at least making at least logical sense…

Don
Tom Van Baak
 Hi Don,

 Yes, easy! And that's exactly the idea -- to take real inputs (or borrowed
 copies of real inputs), and a real software algorithm, and measure the virtual
 output to see how well your algorithm and tunable parameters work. Tweak
 parameters. Evolve the algorithm. Simmer until well done.

 Theoretically, after one builds the real GPSDO, using the same code or at
 least the same algorithm, the actual performance should nearly perfectly match
 the simulation.

 The difference, at least for me, is that I'd rather play with unix commands
 and C code on a PC, trying things out in a matter of minutes, than spend weeks
 slowly trying different things with a real GPSDO (which I've also done). In
 addition, I think gpsim1 makes a useful, almost interactive, teaching tool.

 Now, no simulation is perfect. But oscillators, dividers, 1PPS comparators,
 and DACs are not really that complicated. You are probably guessing that I'm
 working on gpsim2 which will allow simulation of phase and frequency jumps,
 varying GPS reception, power-up, cold-boot, warm-boot, holdover, thermal or
 mechanical shocks to the instrument, and other events that I see in real life.

 But let's let gpsim1 run its coarse before we worry about 2nd order effects.
 I'm very interested in alternative or enhanced algorithms that people come up
 with. The two algorithms now in gpsim1 and default tuning parameters are just
 something I threw together in a few minutes.

 /tvb

 - Original Message -
 From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO simulation tool


 Hi Tom et.al.   Isn't the simulator easily convertible to the real thing?
 That is, data inputs should be convertible somehow to data streams from
 physical devices?
 Don



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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO simulation tool

[Don Latham]

I agree..  Had a maybe weird thought.   Computing power is now a trivial part
of the problem, in that a Ras.Pi can be put to the task for $35 or so. In
that case, PIDdling with time constants and such in a feedback loop with phase
difference as the error signal is easily done, either in simulation, or for
real, as you point out. So, since ADEV or one of its brothers is the measure
of success of PIDdling, shouldn't the ADEV or brethren be in some way the
error signal for the whole?  For example, how about a TCGPSDO? put the whole
thing in a first-order thermal enclosure, with power-over-ethernet being the
only  external wiring?
Hope I'm at least making at least logical sense…

Don
Tom Van Baak
 Hi Don,

 Yes, easy! And that's exactly the idea -- to take real inputs (or borrowed
 copies of real inputs), and a real software algorithm, and measure the virtual
 output to see how well your algorithm and tunable parameters work. Tweak
 parameters. Evolve the algorithm. Simmer until well done.

 Theoretically, after one builds the real GPSDO, using the same code or at
 least the same algorithm, the actual performance should nearly perfectly match
 the simulation.

 The difference, at least for me, is that I'd rather play with unix commands
 and C code on a PC, trying things out in a matter of minutes, than spend weeks
 slowly trying different things with a real GPSDO (which I've also done). In
 addition, I think gpsim1 makes a useful, almost interactive, teaching tool.

 Now, no simulation is perfect. But oscillators, dividers, 1PPS comparators,
 and DACs are not really that complicated. You are probably guessing that I'm
 working on gpsim2 which will allow simulation of phase and frequency jumps,
 varying GPS reception, power-up, cold-boot, warm-boot, holdover, thermal or
 mechanical shocks to the instrument, and other events that I see in real life.

 But let's let gpsim1 run its coarse before we worry about 2nd order effects.
 I'm very interested in alternative or enhanced algorithms that people come up
 with. The two algorithms now in gpsim1 and default tuning parameters are just
 something I threw together in a few minutes.

 /tvb

 - Original Message -
 From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO simulation tool


 Hi Tom et.al.   Isn't the simulator easily convertible to the real thing?
 That is, data inputs should be convertible somehow to data streams from
 physical devices?
 Don



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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO simulation tool

[Don Latham]

I agree..  Had a maybe weird thought.   Computing power is now a trivial part
of the problem, in that a Ras.Pi can be put to the task for $35 or so. In
that case, PIDdling with time constants and such in a feedback loop with phase
difference as the error signal is easily done, either in simulation, or for
real, as you point out. So, since ADEV or one of its brothers is the measure
of success of PIDdling, shouldn't the ADEV or brethren be in some way the
error signal for the whole?  For example, how about a TCGPSDO? put the whole
thing in a first-order thermal enclosure, with power-over-ethernet being the
only  external wiring?
Hope I'm at least making at least logical sense…

Don
Tom Van Baak
 Hi Don,

 Yes, easy! And that's exactly the idea -- to take real inputs (or borrowed
 copies of real inputs), and a real software algorithm, and measure the virtual
 output to see how well your algorithm and tunable parameters work. Tweak
 parameters. Evolve the algorithm. Simmer until well done.

 Theoretically, after one builds the real GPSDO, using the same code or at
 least the same algorithm, the actual performance should nearly perfectly match
 the simulation.

 The difference, at least for me, is that I'd rather play with unix commands
 and C code on a PC, trying things out in a matter of minutes, than spend weeks
 slowly trying different things with a real GPSDO (which I've also done). In
 addition, I think gpsim1 makes a useful, almost interactive, teaching tool.

 Now, no simulation is perfect. But oscillators, dividers, 1PPS comparators,
 and DACs are not really that complicated. You are probably guessing that I'm
 working on gpsim2 which will allow simulation of phase and frequency jumps,
 varying GPS reception, power-up, cold-boot, warm-boot, holdover, thermal or
 mechanical shocks to the instrument, and other events that I see in real life.

 But let's let gpsim1 run its coarse before we worry about 2nd order effects.
 I'm very interested in alternative or enhanced algorithms that people come up
 with. The two algorithms now in gpsim1 and default tuning parameters are just
 something I threw together in a few minutes.

 /tvb

 - Original Message -
 From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO simulation tool


 Hi Tom et.al.   Isn't the simulator easily convertible to the real thing?
 That is, data inputs should be convertible somehow to data streams from
 physical devices?
 Don



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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.




-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO simulation tool

[Don Latham]

I agree..  Had a maybe weird thought.   Computing power is now a trivial part
of the problem, in that a Ras.Pi can be put to the task for $35 or so. In
that case, PIDdling with time constants and such in a feedback loop with phase
difference as the error signal is easily done, either in simulation, or for
real, as you point out. So, since ADEV or one of its brothers is the measure
of success of PIDdling, shouldn't the ADEV or brethren be in some way the
error signal for the whole?  For example, how about a TCGPSDO? put the whole
thing in a first-order thermal enclosure, with power-over-ethernet being the
only  external wiring?
Hope I'm at least making at least logical sense…

Don
Tom Van Baak
 Hi Don,

 Yes, easy! And that's exactly the idea -- to take real inputs (or borrowed
 copies of real inputs), and a real software algorithm, and measure the virtual
 output to see how well your algorithm and tunable parameters work. Tweak
 parameters. Evolve the algorithm. Simmer until well done.

 Theoretically, after one builds the real GPSDO, using the same code or at
 least the same algorithm, the actual performance should nearly perfectly match
 the simulation.

 The difference, at least for me, is that I'd rather play with unix commands
 and C code on a PC, trying things out in a matter of minutes, than spend weeks
 slowly trying different things with a real GPSDO (which I've also done). In
 addition, I think gpsim1 makes a useful, almost interactive, teaching tool.

 Now, no simulation is perfect. But oscillators, dividers, 1PPS comparators,
 and DACs are not really that complicated. You are probably guessing that I'm
 working on gpsim2 which will allow simulation of phase and frequency jumps,
 varying GPS reception, power-up, cold-boot, warm-boot, holdover, thermal or
 mechanical shocks to the instrument, and other events that I see in real life.

 But let's let gpsim1 run its coarse before we worry about 2nd order effects.
 I'm very interested in alternative or enhanced algorithms that people come up
 with. The two algorithms now in gpsim1 and default tuning parameters are just
 something I threw together in a few minutes.

 /tvb

 - Original Message -
 From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO simulation tool


 Hi Tom et.al.   Isn't the simulator easily convertible to the real thing?
 That is, data inputs should be convertible somehow to data streams from
 physical devices?
 Don



 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.




-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO simulation tool

[Don Latham]

sorry! had a glitch and hit send too many times :-)


-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO simulation tool

[Don Latham]

Hi Tom et.al.   Isn't the simulator easily convertible to the real thing?
That is, data inputs should be convertible somehow to data streams from
physical devices?
Don

cfo
 On Fri, 21 Mar 2014 14:55:34 -0700, Tom Van Baak wrote:

 Have a look and let me know what you think. The tool is gpsim1.c
 (Windows: gpsim1.exe) under:
 http://www.leapsecond.com/tools/

 Nice tool Tom

 I just compiled it under linux.
 gcc  gpsim1.c -lm -o gpsim1

 I had to add min/max
 #define min( a, b ) ( ( a  b) ? a : b )
 #define max( a, b ) ( ( a  b) ? a : b )

 Just an info ... GCC complains about this line (my 109 , your 96)
 fprintf(stderr, %s: sample count (%lg) exceeds data counts (%lg, %lg)
 \n, Tool, n, gps_n, osc_n);


 ~/tmp/tvb-gpssim $  gcc  gpsim1.c -lm -o gpsim1
 gpsim1.c: In function ‘main’:
 gpsim1.c:109:9: warning: format ‘%lg’ expects argument of type
 ‘double’,
 but argument 5 has type ‘long int’ [-Wformat]
 gpsim1.c:109:9: warning: format ‘%lg’ expects argument of type
 ‘double’,
 but argument 6 has type ‘long int’ [-Wformat]
 ~/tmp/tvb-gpssim $  ~/tmp/tvb-gpssim $


 Thanx for the nice tool

 CFO

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 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who
have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Different breed of time nuttery

[Don Latham]

Accuracy depends on the stepper motor driver :-)
A really neat conceit!
Don

Daniel Mendes

 This is a different breed of time nuttery than usual in this list but i
 think that at least some of you will enjoy it:

 http://www.behance.net/gallery/FLUX-1440/2420150

 Found it at hack a day

 Daniel
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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[time-nuts] Arduino TIC's

[Don Latham]

Those contemplating Arduino TIC's and other such nuttery might like to
investigate
www.makerplot.com
as a VERY convenient, simple interface program for the Arduino.  Plots
of temperature etc as well as time constant selection, remote
pushbutton contol, etc.etc. without the tedium of GUI programming.
Extremely reasonable cost for construction of simple Lady Heather style
(not as sophisticated) interface.

Don.

-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Arduino GPSDO with 1ns res TIC

[Don Latham]

There's an internal comparator interrupt hardware in the Atmel chip the
Arduino uses. It can be programmed using the IDE as well.
Don

Chris Albertson
 On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 6:36 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 Lars has done a very good job here and good to see the comments and
 excitement.
 Have to agree with HAL that holdover is far more than a second and I
 am in
 a good location with the GPS antenna at 90'. I see my 3801 go into
 holdover
 occasionally and its not seconds.

 Cheapest tinker 10 Mhz is a Xtal with a varicap diode in circuit to
 adjust
 frequency.
 Sub $ 5 I would guess.

 I was intrigued by the Arduino also and then went looking for
 information.
 Just about drowned in whats out there and pricing for the chip is from
 99
 cents to $5.

 You will need one of the larger chips for this.   Closer to $5 than 0.99

 What bootloader X Y or Z. I like the pure chip 28 pin approach and do
 appreciate that this won't be H maser accurate.

 The boot loader is built into the Arduino IDE.  It's a pull down
 from the Tools
 menu.  Just select Tools-Burn Bootloader and it works.  But you
 should never
 have to do this.  All Arduinos ship with a bot loader and  preloaded
 example
 program to blink an LED.

 Don't let at the information of the Internet about this overload you.
 All you
 need to know, can be found from the help menu item.

 If you remove all of Lars' data logging and mode setting (debug) stuff
 this is a
 very short and simple bit of software.

 Looked at the schematic and would appreciate a more complete picture.

 There are only two ICs and he does not use even half
 of the pins.I doubt that it is critical that you even use the same
 divider chip.
 He does leave out the details about th switches on lines A1..A5.  You
 can see where thet
 are read and what is done with the data but it would be nice to see a
 schematic.

 There is certain;y enough information posted to get one of these
 working.

 My plan is to build one and make changes one step at a time.  As I said
 there is enough information to do that.



 [Context is cheap VCXO]

  When used inside a GPSDO it only has to hold over for one second
 until
 the
  next correction.

 Only if you have a good antenna and/or antenna location.

 I'll use whatever is in the junk box for initial testing, then later
 the Rb oscillator.
 --

 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: Atmega?

[Don Latham]

paul:
 Analog reference voltage from the uno is available. The adc and dac can
use the same one.

Also, the nano arduinos with mini-usb connectors are pin
(out)-compatible with much smaller footprint. They're load and go with
the same ide. Used lots of them-nice. 16 bit serial dacs  are available
and cheap. Adafruit is good to do biz with as is sparkfun.
usew of the builtin comparator is in the 328 data manual.
Don


-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Now For Something Completely Different...GPS Security

[Don Latham]

 for government officials, academics and defence contractors
 at
 the UK's National Physical Laboratory.

 He said: [In the US] I don't know anyone that is really in charge of
 it.
 The Department of Homeland Security should be [but] ... they don't have
 any
 people that understand it very well. They've got one person without any
 budget to speak of.

 Mr Parkinson, now a professor at Stanford University, created GPS in the
 1970s on behalf of the US military - who still control the system of
 satellites today.

 Use of the system for civilian purposes has exploded with the
 development
 of mobile technologies.

 Though the US military has in place protection that could give its
 navigation systems a high-degree of robustness, most civilian GPS
 systems
 have none, Mr Parkinson said. He also warned that the EU's new EURO 5bn
 Galileo
 satellite system, created as an alternative to the US-controlled GPS,
 was
 equally at risk.

 Richard Peckham, who helped develop the Galileo system, said that
 although
 its public service was encrypted, making it more difficult to hack and
 more
 secure for users such as the emergency services and public utilities, it
 was still vulnerable to jamming and interference.

 The US, which initially opposed the European satellite constellation,
 has
 come around to supporting it, in part because Washington has realised it
 needs a GPS back-up system that is neither Russian nor Chinese.

 A report compiled for the UK government and released this week warned
 that
 the conditions are present for a catastrophic 'Black Swan' event that
 would knock out one or more critical GPS systems. The report identified
 thousands of instances of GPS jamming occurring annually.

 Disruption of satellite navigation systems has so far remained a
 relatively
 low-level problem for governments. Small-range jamming devices can be
 acquired easily via the internet. However, more powerful jamming
 equipment
 is becoming increasingly easy to acquire.

 Over the past few years South Korea has witnessed huge jamming attacks
 against its GPS systems, launched by North Korea. The areas affected
 stretch 100km into South Korean territory, and include major airports
 and
 shipping lanes. More than 1,000 ships and 250 planes had their travel
 disrupted
 by North Korean jamming attacks in
 2012http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/aa557dd4-944f-11e1-bb47-00144feab49a.html?siteedition=uk
 .

 Seoul has responded by ordering the construction of a land-based antenna
 array over more than 40 sites to provide a back-up system.

 The UK has already begun to build a similar system, primarily to help
 shipping in the event of GPS disruption. The stretch of water between
 Britain and France is one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world,
 but
 navigation throughout it could be disrupted by a single portable jamming
 device.

 When a ship loses GPS, it isn't like a car satnav, said Professor
 David
 Last, a consultant to the UK's General Lighthouse Authority. Multiple
 systems fail simultaneously.

 Prof Last cited a report into navigation vulnerabilities* from the Royal
 Academy of Engineering*
 http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/publications/list/reports/RAoE_Global_Navigation_Systems_Report.pdfthat
 found there was barely a single area of commerce or industry in the UK
 that wasn't dependent on GPS in some way.
  RELATED TOPICS

- United States of
 Americahttp://www.ft.com/topics/places/United_States_of_America
,
- United Kingdom http://www.ft.com/topics/places/United_Kingdom,
- Drones http://www.ft.com/topics/themes/Drones
-



 On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 7:20 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
 j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote:

 Hello Time Nuts,

 I thought this would be of interest to the group:

 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fadf1714-940d-11e3-bf0c-00144feab7de.html

 Regards,
 John W.

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-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Arduino GPSDO with 1ns res TIC

[Don Latham]

Lars:  I idiotically erased your original email with the schematics and
so on. Could you please resend to me off-list?
Thank you very much
Don


-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Morion MV89A position

[Don Latham]

 My question is, how does one design an enclosure to prevent this
 mistake? Or is it trial and error. Perhaps put a thermistor on the OCXO
 and if the case temperature rises beyond what is normal case temperature
 in free air, then the enclosure has too much insulation?

I suggest a thorough reading of Schaum's summary book on heat transfer,
or get a secondhand copy of Incropera  DeWitt (?sp). It's pretty simple
to build models for the planned enclosures. For example, the enclosures
with insulation are mostly conduction transfer problems, the clever
enclosure mentioned a couple of days back, with nylon standoffs and a
sealed dewar (?) is a combined convection/radiation balance problem,
harder because of the convection cells that will set up inside the
dewar. Forget about thermal resistance, thermal capacitance, etc, and
look at the basics of heat transfer!
Also think about this: What's the REAL problem?
Enough rant.


 With all this talk about thermal capacitance and resistance, perhaps
 what we need is a thermal diode; it lets heat out but prevents thermal
 fluctuations from getting in. A thermal Gore-Tex layer.

There's always Maxwell's demons, if you can catch one :-)


-- 
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.
 -George Bernard Shaw


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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