Re: [time-nuts] Traveling to the US west coast

[Jeremy Nichols]

It looks like IFCS is being held in the Lake Tahoe area; if I were Attila,
I'd fly into Reno and rent a car for the beautiful drive up into the
Sierra, thus avoiding SFO/OAK and the Bay Area traffic mess.

Jeremy


On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 11:48 PM Magnus Danielson <
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I hope you guys all get together to meet with Attila.
> Unfortunately I will not be able to join this time, as I'd love to be at
> IFCS too, the budget for it did not materialize this time.
>
> I too need to get to SF bay area and Seattle area to meet the many
> friends there, but this was not the time.
>
> I did have the time to meet Attila att EFTF in Torino, I keep meeting
> him in more places in the world, including Neuchatel, Zurich, Besancon,
> Berlin/Potsdam, Paris, Torino... I really enjoy each time. So make sure
> to find him out now that he gets in your kneck of the woods.
>
> So, until I get to travel, I keep working on my backlog of articles.
> Already sent one of and another one is shaping up (finally).
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 05/19/2018 05:32 AM, David Smith wrote:
> > If Attilla is going to be in the Bay area I would like to come up and
> maybe have dinner. I live in Fresno, 180 miles south of San Francisco.
> >
> > Dave W6TE
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Pete
> Stephenson
> > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 8:29 PM
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Traveling to the US west coast
> >
> > Interestingly enough, I've moved from. Switzerland (where I've met
> Atilla) and am now in the Bay Area. It's be great to meet up again.
> >
> > Even if Attila doesn't make it to the SF area, I'd be interested in
> getting some local time nuts together.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > -Pete
> >
> > On Fri, May 18, 2018, at 6:36 PM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
> >> Are you going to be in San Francisco area?  Maybe we could get a time-
> >> nuts breakfast together with a couple of us.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Jerry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On May 17, 2018, at 11:25 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> Some of you might already know, I will fly to the US west coast to
> >>> attend IFCS. Afterwards, I will be in Seattle for a couple of days
> >>> (from 25th to 31st). If you are in the area and want to meet up,
> >>> please drop me an email (off-list).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Attila Kinali
> >>> --
> >>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> >>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of
> >>> no use without that foundation.
> >>> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
> >>> w.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts=02%7C01%7
> >>> C%7C1947df2ea29d48f7aa3208d5bd38b10a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a
> >>> aaa%7C1%7C0%7C636622973542611628=Fx2SdOpMmpuGCtrh0krWB1NbzdjIy
> >>> AmbvPimzxeevqo%3D=0
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.
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> >> 1%7C0%7C636622973542611628=Fx2SdOpMmpuGCtrh0krWB1NbzdjIyAmbvPimz
> >> xeevqo%3D=0
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pete Stephenson
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Weird Stuff Warehouse shutting down

[Jeremy Nichols]

HSC (Halted) was there in February. Then again, so was WeirdStuff, so
anything is possible.

Jeremy


On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 4:01 PM Gary E. Miller  wrote:

> Yo Richard!
>
> On Sat, 7 Apr 2018 14:17:42 -0700
> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"  wrote:
>
> > On 4/7/2018 10:54 AM, Gary E. Miller wrote:
> > >
> > > Sad news.  Weird Stuff, Haltek, and Halted were integral parts of
> > > the Silicon Valley ecosystem.
> >
> > Are you saying Halted is gone?
>
> Dunno, sorry to mislead, I don't live there anymore.  I just meant they
> were, as a group, vital to the local culture at that time.
>
> There web site is still up:  http://halted.com/
>
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>
> Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
> "If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin
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Re: [time-nuts] Weird Stuff Warehouse shutting down

[Jeremy Nichols]

Sadness. Fewer and fewer places to buy good "junk." Have not had one in
Santa Rosa since HSC closed. .Was just there in February. Shall miss them.
Morgan Hill is a bit too far south for my occasional trips to San Jose.

Jeremy

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 11:02 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Over the years, this has been the fate of a *lot* of surplus / goodie
> outfits. They have
> a “deal” on some property and that runs out. Sometimes it’s a sale with
> the neighborhood
> improving. Other times it’s the roof needing repairs and nobody sees the
> need to do them
> until it is way to late ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Apr 6, 2018, at 11:24 PM, Bruce Lane 
> wrote:
> >
> > Fellow techies,
> >
> >   I'm sorry to report we're losing another surplus place. Weird Stuff
> > Warehouse, in Sunnyvale, CA, is closing its doors as of Monday, 9-Apr-18.
> >
> >   It seems we have Google to blame. Here's Weird Stuff's final
> > newsletter, verbatim.
> >
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> > April 6, 2018
> >
> > To Weirdstuff Customers,
> >
> > Sadly, after 32 years in business, Weirdstuff Warehouse will be closing
> > its doors as of April 9, 2018. If you have been following the real
> > estate news for Sunnyvale you know that Google purchased a large amount
> > of real estate in the area including the building we have been leasing
> > for the past 22 years. We have been asked to vacate the building as soon
> > as possible, and in order to accomplish that task we are selling our
> > inventory and many of our assets to Outback Equipment of Morgan Hill.
> > The transfer of inventory and assets will take place on April 9, 2018;
> > at that time Weirdstuff Warehouse will cease to do business.
> >
> > Even though Weirdstuff is closing we will retain ownership of the
> > Corporation, trademark, and domain names. We hope to handle these
> > entities and wind down the corporation before year end.
> >
> > Many of you have been loyal customers for many years, and we have
> > enjoyed working with you. We thank you for your loyalty and business.
> >
> > For more information, check out our website after Monday, April 9, 20
> 
> 18.
> >
> > WeirdStuff Warehouse
> > 384 W. Caribbean Dr.
> > Sunnyvale, CA 94089
> > (408) 743-5650
> > --
> >
> >   Heh... So much for Google's favorite "Don't Be Evil" motto
> >
> > ---
> > Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR
> > http://www.bluefeathertech.com
> > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech dot com
> > "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (Red Green)
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Cheap jitter measurements

[Jeremy Nichols]

On the practical side, the 5345 is HEAVY due to its older technology—doing
what it does with first-generation ICs required HP jam an enormous amount
of circuitry into a fairly small physical package.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 2:39 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I would add the HP 5335 to the list of counters to look for. The surplus
> market can be really
> weird. A 5334 *should* be less than a 5335, but on any given day, that may
> not be true. The
> 5370 and 5345 are also worth looking for. Target price (at least for me)
> wold be < $150 for a
> quick buy and < $70 if I was willing to shop for a while.
>
> Getting data *out* of the older counters will involve GPIB. If you are not
> already set up to do
> that, there will be the cost of a cable and a simple adapter.
>
> If you want to move up a generation, the 53131 and 53132 are higher
> resolution devices than
> the 5334 and 5335. They give you the benefit of a serial port. No GPIB
> stuff to bother with.
> Finding one at price lower than the TAPR counter …. probably not.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Apr 3, 2018, at 3:04 PM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Gary,
> >
> > One solution is to look for used hp, Fluke, or Racal time interval
> counters on eBay. 1 or 2 ns is pretty easy to find with a $100 or $200
> budget. Look for Racal 1992 or hp 5334B as examples. If you plan to collect
> lots of data, you'll want GPIB (or RS232 / USB) connections to a PC and
> that will add to your net cost.
> >
> > Another solution is to homebrew your own 1 ns counter. The downside is
> you will spend a month working out the bugs before you trust the data. Plus
> if you don't already have another counter to compare it against it makes
> development even harder.
> >
> > Third solution is the TICC from TAPR. It's new and works out of the box.
> Lots of us use them. John did a very good job with the design. Highly
> recommended. It's a dual-channel *time stamping* counter so you can collect
> 1PPS data on two separate GPS receivers at the same time if you want. In
> that respect it's 2x as useful as a commercial *time interval* counter.
> >
> > You mention jitter, not ADEV. I don't think you need a fancy timebase if
> all you want to measure is jitter. You can get a good feel for the jitter
> of a GPS / 1PPS output within a few samples. Even a minute of data is
> usually enough to establish the rms jitter value. If you want a full ADEV
> plot, then yes, you'd probably want at least an Rb for your reference.
> >
> > See paragraph "Timing Stability" at http://leapsecond.com/pages/MG1613S/
> for an example of what jitter from a GPS receiver looks like; in this case
> it's primarily sawtooth.
> >
> > Right, the picPET has 400 ns resolution and so it is not the right tool
> for your nanosecond needs. I do have a 10 ns version that I use, but that's
> still a bit coarse for GPS work.
> >
> > I have spare FEI Rb here; I'll send it if you want it. That way you can
> afford a TICC.
> >
> > /tvb
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Gary E. Miller" 
> > To: "time-nuts" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2018 10:47 AM
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Cheap jitter measurements
> >
> >
> > Time-nuts!
> >
> > With care I can measure GPS jitter on a RasPi to a bit over 300 nano sec
> > resolution.  That is the smallest increment of the RasPi 3B clock with
> > a 64-bit kernel.  That is clearly not time-nuts accuracy.
> >
> > What would you guys suggest as the cheapest way to see jitter down to
> > around 1 nano second?
> >
> > I'm thinking maybe something like a rubidium standard (FE-5680A) and
> > a TICC-TAPR?  But that would put me out around $400.
> >
> > The picPET does not look accurate enough.  Maybe a clever way to use it
> > for more accuracy?  Is there a picPET like thing cheaper than the
> > TICC-TAPR?
> >
> > Ideas?
> >
> > RGDS
> > GARY
> >
> ---
> > Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> > g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
> >
> >Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
> >"If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
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Re: [time-nuts] Quieting the HP-113AR Clock/Frequency Divider

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thank you for sharing your experience, Bill. I thought about building a
wooden case and still might. My concern with the metal rack cabinet is that
the metal panels can act as drumheads. In my 113, the 1KHz "singing" is
much reduced once the motor is started. Whether it's drowned out by the
motor noise is a question I've not yet tackled. My 103 frequency standard
has drifted low and can no longer be tweaked back to 1 MHz. Best it will do
is 0.999 998 847 MHz, so the clock will run slow unless I use one of my
other standards. (Having gone to school in St. Paul, I understand the
temperature change challenges.)

Jeremy


On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 3:49 AM Bill Hawkins <bill.i...@pobox.com> wrote:

> Here's another experience with a 103 crystal standard with the requisite
> 100 KC output and a 113 clock. I craved the clock because I'd seen it in
> the Smithsonian precision time exhibit.
>
> The 103 was certainly quiet, but the 113 was not, in spite of its heavy
> cast aluminum case. The 1 KC stepping motor sings at a frequency that is
> most sensitive to the ear. What were they thinking at HP?
>
> So I built an enclosure in an existing set of shelves. Quarter inch
> paneling defined the enclosure, which was lined with thick fiberglass
> insulation on all sides. The door was an insulated plywood panel that
> had magnetic latches, so you could pull it loose to read the clock. You
> could hardly hear it with the door closed.
>
> Both the 103 and 113 were in the enclosure, reducing the temperature
> changes typical of Minnesota. An external 28 volt power supply trickle
> charged two 12V 7AH batteries with diodes to provide battery power when
> the line went out. At the time, the power company was upgrading
> underground service, so there were many opportunities to observe
> switchover.
>
> I'm sorry to say that I didn't keep detailed records of accuracy. IIRC,
> the clock was within a few seconds of WWV at he New Year.
>
> All in all, another fine learning experience. Sold the 103 and 113 after
> a few years, and got into telephone GPS with a pair of HP Z3801A and a
> 16 foot plastic pipe mast for two HP conical antennas. Ended with the
> Lucent stuff. Inquiries for recycling Lucent stuff welcome.
>
> Bill Hawkins
> bill.i...@pobox.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy
> Nichols
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 9:39 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Quieting the HP-113AR Clock/Frequency Divider
>
> Those of us with the 1960-vintage HP-113AR/BR Clock/Frequency Divider
> know how noisy they are. The mechanical clock movement of my 113AR is
> loud enough that I really don't want to be in the same room with it. I
> don't know if the clocks are noisy from brand-new or if the mechanism
> gets noisier as the various parts wear with age.
>
> Here's how I quieted mine:
> . Wrap the outer cabinet of the 113AR in stick-on automotive sound
> deadener.
> . Put the 113AR in a fully enclosed 4U rack cabinet.
> . Stuff insulation into the cabinet so the 113AR is completely
> surrounded except for the front panel.
>
> Should anyone be interested, I can provide detailed notes, a shopping
> list, and pictures. Total cost was about US$150 and would have been a
> lot less if I could have found a used cabinet at the surplus store.
>
> Jeremy
>
>
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[time-nuts] Quieting the HP-113AR Clock/Frequency Divider

[Jeremy Nichols]

Those of us with the 1960-vintage HP-113AR/BR Clock/Frequency Divider know how 
noisy they are. The mechanical clock movement of my 113AR is loud enough that I 
really don't want to be in the same room with it. I don't know if the clocks 
are noisy from brand-new or if the mechanism gets noisier as the various parts 
wear with age.

Here's how I quieted mine:
• Wrap the outer cabinet of the 113AR in stick-on automotive sound deadener.
• Put the 113AR in a fully enclosed 4U rack cabinet.
• Stuff insulation into the cabinet so the 113AR is completely surrounded 
except for the front panel.

Should anyone be interested, I can provide detailed notes, a shopping list, and 
pictures. Total cost was about US$150 and would have been a lot less if I could 
have found a used cabinet at the surplus store. 

Jeremy

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Re: [time-nuts] Need a Watch Recommendation

[Jeremy Nichols]

Nice but lacks "day” feature (has “date”). I don’t normally care whether
it’s the 22nd or the 23rd but it’s nice to know whether it’s Tuesday or
Wednesday. YMMV, of course.

Jeremy

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:57 PM Achim Vollhardt 
wrote:

> Dear Don and all,
> no mentioning of the Seiko Astron GPS Solar?
>
> http://www.seiko-astron.com/
>
> 73s
> Achim DH2VA
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Re: [time-nuts] Terrestrial GPS

[Jeremy Nichols]

Apparently the database in my area is poor. Another location I am sometimes
found in is *Fremont*, almost 100 miles southeast. Fremont most frequently
shows up as the "closest store" when I am looking at (for example) hardware
store web sites.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:15 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> WiFi based location can be pretty good or it can be a real joke. It all
> depends on
> how good the database happens to be and how many stationary WiFi setups you
> can “see”. I’ve had it pop up with locations that are off by many miles.
> ISP’s
> feed you IP addresses via DHCP and the “on net” numbers are rarely visible
> to
> the casual passerby. , They likely are depending on other information
> (like SSID
> surveys from vehicles).
>
> Bob
>
> > On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:15 PM, Bill Byrom  wrote:
> >
> > Have you noticed that your mobile devices (smartphone, iPad, tablet PC,
> > laptop PC) can often know your location when you inside a  building
> > shielding you from GPS satellites (or producing multipath confusing the
> > GPS receiver)? Here is a quick test you can do if you have a PC with no
> > GPS receiver but with WiFi capability:
> > Start up a browser and go to http://maps.google.com (which redirects to
> > https://www.google.com/maps/...) with a WiFi connection. Near the lower
> > right of the screen you should see the + - zoom buttons, and above these
> > a target icon. Click that target icon. If asked, enable location
> > finding. You may also need to enable your browser to release location
> > information.  In my case, I am now sitting near the middle of my house
> > and the laptop Windows 10 PC Google Maps locator places my location on
> > the street adjacent to my house, about 25 meters or so from my actual
> > location. My iPhone iOS map shows my location more closely (inside my
> > house) and it very accurately shows the location of the minivan I parked
> > in the driveway several hours ago (as "parked car").  My iPad also shows
> > my location within my house.
> > How do these devices know your location without GPS? Several methods are
> > used to produce a hybrid positioning system[1]:(1) Your IP address from
> your ISP. This gets me within a few km of my
> >location. See: https://www.iplocation.net/(2) WiFi positioning
> system[2] - This makes use of databases which
> >contain the geographic location of WiFi access points. The data is
> >collected by methods such as comparing the GPS receiver location
> >reports of mobile devices with the signal strength of access
> points.(3) Cellular radio location - Various techniques allow accurate
> >mobile phone tracking[3]. The signal strength and propagation
> >delay from cellular base stations allow moderately good
> >determination of location.
> > If you are in an area without GPS receiver coverage, your mobile device
> > or PC can determine the time using various techniques:(1) Crystal
> oscillator for short-term time stability.
> > (2) NTP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol
> > (3) Cellular timing - cellular phone networks require very accurate
> >timing of the RF signals.
> > It would be hard to place terrestrial transmitters on the GPS satellite
> > frequencies without dynamic range and other problems, and of course
> > someone could use this technique to jam GPS reception in an area. But
> > several terrestrial geolocation and timing dissemination systems have
> > been proposed, and some limited deployment has been achieved.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NextNav
> > http://www.nextnav.com/technology
> > http://esatjournals.net/ijret/2013v02/i04/IJRET20130204031.pdf
> >
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/wireless/us-master-clock-keepers-test-ground-alternative-to-gps--
> > Bill Byrom N5BB
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 13, 2018, at 5:17 PM, Stewart Cobb wrote:
> >> Peter Reilley suggests a backup to GPS using terrestrial
> >> transmitters. This> idea has been around since the early days of GPS.
> The terrestrial
> >> transmitters were called "pseudo-satellites", or "pseudolites"
> >> for short.> The big problem with this idea is that the GPS signal
> format has
> >> a narrow> dynamic range. The signal strength from a terrestrial
> >> transmitter varies> widely (inverse square law) from positions near the
> transmitter to
> >> positions far away. The variation in any practical system is
> >> larger than> the GPS signal format can handle. This is called the
> "near-far
> >> problem".> For an extensive discussion of the pseudolite concept,
> including the
> >> near-far problem, see my dissertation. You can find it with a
> >> web search> for my full name and the word "pseudolites".
> >>
> >> Cheers!
> >> --Stu
> >> _
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> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts> and follow
> the instructions 

Re: [time-nuts] Recommendations for Mains Power Monitor / Logger

[Jeremy Nichols]

 One possibility is to get an FNET/GridEye unit of the University of
Tennessee's monitoring stations.

Operated by the Power Information Technology Laboratory
 at the University of Tennessee ,
FNET/GridEye is a low-cost, quickly deployable GPS-synchronized wide-area
frequency measurement network. High dynamic accuracy Frequency Disturbance
Recorders (FDRs) are used to measure the frequency, phase angle, and
voltage of the power system at ordinary 120 V outlets. The measurement data
are continuously transmitted via the Internet to the FNET/GridEye servers
hosted at the University of Tennessee and Virginia Tech .


I have Unit 853 of the Western Interconnection in the tabular display in
their web site (http://fnetpublic.utk.edu/tabledisplay.html). The unit,
about the size of a book, connects to the Internet via a cable to my router
and has a power line connection and a small GPS antenna. The LCD display
shows voltage and frequency; unfortunately there's no way to record this
information on site (at home or wherever).

Jeremy
N6WFO

On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 2:53 PM, Patrick Murphy  wrote:

> All this talk of varying mains power frequency aberrations has me
> curious what is happening in my own back yard here in Tulsa in the
> USA. Can some recommend a reasonable "introductory level" solution for
> this? (As a fledgling Time-Nut, those two words were hard to say.)
> At the least I would like to watch voltage and frequency, with a
> configurable monitoring and logging interval. I can provide precise
> timing as needed for synchronization and time-stamping. Expanded
> ability to also monitor amperage, various power factors, etc is a plus
> but not required at this point.
>
> I've done some Googling and have found any number of designs. What I
> can't tell is how well they work. I am pretty handy with my hands and
> do not at all mind a DIY solution.
>
> So what do the Oracles say?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Pat
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone have a working HP-113AR/BR Clock?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Yeah, me too! I worked for that division of HP (02 Frequency and Time)
beginning in late 1972, several years after the division moved out of Palo
Alto and became the Santa Clara Division. Stuff like the 113AR was 'way
beyond my means, of course. I knew a few people who dated from the real
early days of HP, guys like Marv Wilrodt, who could remember back to the
earliest days of the company. I suppose they're all dead and gone, a pity.

Jeremy


On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 6:28 PM paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jeremy I will speculate the noise simply was tolerated. At the time these
> would have been a pretty big to do.
> It was top line HP after all. Most likely other fans in the divider chains,
> receivers, scopes competed for attention.
> But that was a bit before my time.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 6:43 PM, Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you for the inputs. (I wonder what the original users of this thing
> > did in 1960?) To quiet mine, I purchased a small rack cabinet enclosure,
> > just big enough for a single 4U instrument, and mounted the 113AR inside
> > with all the remaining space stuffed with Finerglas® house insulation.
> That
> > has taken the edge off of the noise, making it almost tolerable. The next
> > step is a layer of automotive sound system butyl rubber insulation on the
> > 113AR cabinet and on the clock mechanism itself.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 6:10 AM Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I would second the previous comment on the 113. Every time I have seen
> > one
> > > it
> > > has been a really noisy device. Certainly *not* what you would want in
> > > anything
> > > described as a “quiet lab”. Since it’s full of gears (like a Teletype)
> > > proper lubrication
> > > and cleaning are going to be part of the process. The gotcha there will
> > be
> > > getting
> > >  old lube out of odd places. I don’t ever remember anybody pointing to
> > > there
> > > unit and smiling …
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > > On Jan 4, 2018, at 1:15 AM, Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to communicate with someone who has an HP-113AR/BR Frequency
> > > Divider and Clock, especially someone who has one actually operating.
> > Mine
> > > seems to be noisy (motor/gear noise, not 1 KHz whine) and hard to
> start.
> > > Having never seen one of these before getting mine, I have no idea
> > whether
> > > mine is normal or abnormal. It would be useful to communicate, via this
> > > list or privately, with someone who has more experience. Mine is an
> "AR,"
> > > serial 029-00156.
> > > >
> > > > Jeremy
> > > >
> > > > ___
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> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
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> > > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > --
> > Sent from my iPad 4.
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone have a working HP-113AR/BR Clock?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thank you for the inputs. (I wonder what the original users of this thing
did in 1960?) To quiet mine, I purchased a small rack cabinet enclosure,
just big enough for a single 4U instrument, and mounted the 113AR inside
with all the remaining space stuffed with Finerglas® house insulation. That
has taken the edge off of the noise, making it almost tolerable. The next
step is a layer of automotive sound system butyl rubber insulation on the
113AR cabinet and on the clock mechanism itself.

Jeremy


On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 6:10 AM Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I would second the previous comment on the 113. Every time I have seen one
> it
> has been a really noisy device. Certainly *not* what you would want in
> anything
> described as a “quiet lab”. Since it’s full of gears (like a Teletype)
> proper lubrication
> and cleaning are going to be part of the process. The gotcha there will be
> getting
>  old lube out of odd places. I don’t ever remember anybody pointing to
> there
> unit and smiling …
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jan 4, 2018, at 1:15 AM, Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'd like to communicate with someone who has an HP-113AR/BR Frequency
> Divider and Clock, especially someone who has one actually operating. Mine
> seems to be noisy (motor/gear noise, not 1 KHz whine) and hard to start.
> Having never seen one of these before getting mine, I have no idea whether
> mine is normal or abnormal. It would be useful to communicate, via this
> list or privately, with someone who has more experience. Mine is an "AR,"
> serial 029-00156.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
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[time-nuts] Anyone have a working HP-113AR/BR Clock?

[Jeremy Nichols]

I'd like to communicate with someone who has an HP-113AR/BR Frequency 
Divider and Clock, especially someone who has one actually operating. 
Mine seems to be noisy (motor/gear noise, not 1 KHz whine) and hard to 
start. Having never seen one of these before getting mine, I have no 
idea whether mine is normal or abnormal. It would be useful to 
communicate, via this list or privately, with someone who has more 
experience. Mine is an "AR," serial 029-00156.


Jeremy

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Re: [time-nuts] Recalling and honoring our heritage

[Jeremy Nichols]

Really enjoyable, thank you for the link!

Jeremy


On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 7:03 AM William H. Fite  wrote:

> I was chided in somewhat patronizing terms by one long-time member of this
> group a while back for "wasting our time with obsolete crap that no one
> cares about."
>
> Brace yourselves, I'm going to do it again.
>
> Attached is a video (one of a series) documenting the design and
> construction of mechanical watches. My sarcastic critic notwithstanding, it
> is a mistake to disregard our horological heritage. This is from whence we
> came. In a very real way, this is who we are.
>
> Take a look at what can be accomplished with gears, wheels, and springs. It
> is a quest for perfection every bit bit as serious and dedicated as the
> quest for electronic clocks with accuracy in the attasecond range.
>
> Or just mutter under your breath and smack the delete key.
>
> https://youtu.be/hoO7PtR0ujY
>
>
>
> --
> Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
> when it deserves it.
> --Mark Twain
>
> We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
> for sinners. His standards are quite low.
> --Desmond Tutu
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Spec Analyzer FS

[Jeremy Nichols]

I'll take it if no one else has spoken up. I'm in 95404.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> I have a HP 8590A that I got from Bob Camp in a trade.  In the spring we
> will be moving so I'm shedding some of my large TN gear.
> I works OK but it may need to be cal'd if one wants precise mearsurments.
> $365 plus shipping from 92220  about 30 lbs.
> Regards,
> Perrier
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Re: [time-nuts] External cooling fans - source

[Jeremy Nichols]

I put a small external fan on my 5370B, which keeps the heat sink at a
reasonable low temperature (Time-Nut content) -but- (Nixon segué) the power
company here also runs the voltage all the way up to the limit (126VAC)
because "many of our [rural, like me] customers are all-electric and the
load tends to pull the voltage down during times of peak use." The voltage
got so high I finally put a recorder on it and walked the results into
their office. In response, they attached their recorder to my connection
and ran it for a couple of weeks before agreeing with me. Then they
reluctantly turned the transformer down a notch so we stay below 126VAC now.

Jeremy

On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 5:44 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Yes, this *is* a bit off topic. Sorry about that … I’m sure it’ll never /
> ever happen
> again :) …. ummm …. today ….
>
> The voltage that supply feeds are set to is as much a public relations
> issue as a
> technical one. People would routinely complain “the lights are to dim”.
> Voltage
> gets bumped up. Complaints drop off. Eventually you are right at (or as
> you observe
> marginally above) the max limits. Since the power company is paid by the
> watt, the
> added power usage (if any) is not a big deal. The call outs for checks
> *are* a big
> deal to them ….. complaints impact the metrics by which they are judged ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Dec 19, 2017, at 12:48 AM, Dr. David Kirkby <
> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > On 18 December 2017 at 23:11, Charles Steinmetz 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> From time to time, the subject of external cooling fans comes up -- for
> >> example, in discussions of the HP 5370A/B with their steaming hot
> >> heatsinks.  I have several times recommended very quiet, all-metal, 4"
> desk
> >> fans as ideal for the job, but have not been able to suggest a source.
> >>
> >
> > For what it is worth, my 5370B run very hot, which forced me to check my
> > mains voltage as I knew every time I had done a quick measurement, the
> > voltage was above 230 V. So for a few days I logged the voltage, and
> found
> > it was consistently high. The maximum permitted here in the UK is 253 V,
> > but I measured mine at 255.x volts. It was the heat of the 5370B that
> > forced me to contact the electricity supply company (UK Power Networks),
> > who logged the voltage for 4 days. I have a 3-phase supply here, which is
> > unusual for a domestic property, but each of the 3 phases was
> consistently
> > high. I managed to get the supply company to reduce the voltage by 5%.
> That
> > made a *significant* difference in the heatsink temperature of the 5370B,
> > and a significant difference to to the exhaust temperature of my HP 7
> > series system.
> >
> > I'm not saying an extra fan is not a good idea, but it is certainly worth
> > ensuring the mains voltage is not too high. I was told by UK Power
> Networks
> > that they aim for 245-250 V in rural areas - this is despite the UK is
> > supposed to be 230 -6%/+10%. On equipment with linear power supplies, a
> few
> > extra volts can lead to a significant increase in the amount of heat the
> > regulators produce. 10% extra voltage does *not* equate to 10% extra
> power
> > dissipation, but considerably more.
> >
> > I found quite a reluctance on the part of the UK Power Networks to reduce
> > the voltage. Even though it was was on average more than 5% high, the
> > technical manager who took ownership of the problem only wanted to reduce
> > the voltage by 2.5%, despite they could easily reduce it 5%. Luckily,
> when
> > the engineers came to adjust the supply voltage, (which they do by
> changing
> > the taps on the 11 kV primary), I managed to convince them that there
> were
> > very few properties on the transformer, and the furthest was an old
> couple
> > that used very little electricity. So they did reduce it 5%, which is the
> > maximum they could. But they warned me that if there were complaints of
> low
> > voltage, they would have to increase it 2.5%. Luckily for me, nobody
> > locally noticed the reduction in mains voltage, and it is still on
> average
> > over 230 V.
> >
> > It would be interesting to know how low the AC input can go on a 5370B
> > before the regulators fail to regulate. Given they are the sort of
> > instrument one might want to run for long periods, running one on a UPS,
> > with a transformer to reduce the output of the UPS, might not be such a
> bad
> > idea.
> >
> >
> >> Charles
> >>
> >
> > Dave
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] accurate 60 hz reference chips/ckts

[Jeremy Nichols]

I'm surprised Vlad is seeing as much as six seconds differential but maybe
I don't understand the experiment. I've done measurements of the line
frequency here in California and never seen much variation.

Jeremy


On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:02 AM Vlad  wrote:

>
>
> I have one of my project boxes, which monitor the main freq. Here is
> graph which reflect the time difference between of RTC (based on number
> of pulses from OCXO) and the "MAIN TIME" which is based on number of
> zero-cross events.
> The observation period is 486 hours.
>
>
>
>
> On 2017-12-14 23:13, Jim Harman wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:53 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Of course this *assumes* an electronic approach. Given that it’s
> >> moving
> >> pretty slow and you
> >> only are looking at fractions of a millisecond, one *could* do an
> >> electro
> >> mechanical design …...
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> There is interesting background on power grid frequency/time
> >> adjustment
> > procedures here
> >
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency#Time_error_correction_(TEC)
> >
> > and here
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_clock#Accuracy
>
> --
> WBW,
>
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Jeremy Nichols]

My HP-103AR is low (the 1 MHz output reads 0.999 999 200 MHz) with the fine
frequency adjust turned to maximum. I'm a rank amateur at this but the
circuit diagram looks like a series-resonant (Pierce) oscillator. Looks
like I need to replace one of the capacitors inside the oven with a smaller
value.


On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 12:40 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> One basic question - Is the frequency high or low?
>
> Assuming it’s an SC and on the lower turn, frequency low is possible
> with an off temperature oven. Frequency high is unlikely unless it’s *way*
> off temperature. How far off turn gives you how much delta F depends on
> the inflection temperature of the crystal. It matters if it’s a “true
> SC”or a
> “modified SC”….. If it is a true SC and running at 80C, that’s about 10
> degrees
> below inflection. There will not be a lot of frequency change in that case.
>
> Many (but not all) modern crystal processes tend to age positive. If that
> is the
> case on these parts, a frequency high is the likely outcome of “age out of
> range”.
> Even with a process that has a known tendency, only about 70% of them go
> that direction over long periods of time. It’s not a perfect thing ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:34 PM, Angus  wrote:
> >
> >
> > The 8601 that I have was about 2 deg C off turnover when I got it, but
> > I can't remember what sort or frequency error that caused. The
> > temperature coefficient was terrible with that error.
> >
> > Angus.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 8 Dec 2017 13:05:14 + (UTC), you wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Gentlemen,
> >> We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
> into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
> coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
> specification.
> >> Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
> operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
> >> Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
> details.
> >> Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken
> components, isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> >> 73
> >>
> >> Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> >> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] End-of-Range: Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3

[Jeremy Nichols]

My HP-103AR frequency standard has a similar problem. I have been advised
to take it apart and replace one of the capacitors in order to bring the
frequency back into the range of adjustment. Sounds like you have the same
problem.

Jeremy


On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 7:52 AM paul swed  wrote:

> I took a quick look at the spec sheet.
> It appears coarse adjustment is an option M and would actually be a pot.
> That speaks to another tuning diode for coarse? Or a pot on pot
> arrangement.
> That sounds ugly.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > It is quite possible that nothing is actually broken and that the crystal
> > has simply drifted
> > outside the tuning range. It should be pretty easy to spot the coarse
> > tuning device once
> > the package is open. I would bet you will find a selected capacitor
> across
> > the coarse tune or in
> > series with the coarse tune. Changing the value of that cap should bring
> > things back on
> > frequency. I would avoid changing caps across the EFC tuning diode.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > On Dec 8, 2017, at 8:05 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts <
> > time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Gentlemen,
> > > We have an Oscilloquartz OCXO 8600-3that cannot any longer be adjusted
> > into 5,000,000 Hz.It is about 1 Hz out of 5 MHz and turning
> > coarse/fineadjustment potentiometers cannot bring the frequencyinto its
> > specification.
> > > Oven temperature is about + 80C accordingto the thermistor and the
> > operating voltageis at 24 VDC.
> > > Have Googled but the only thing that turns upis datasheets w/o any
> > details.
> > > Before I take it apart and start lookingfor obviously broken
> components,
> > isthere anyone that has a CLIP on this unit?
> > > 73
> > >
> > > Ulf Kylenfall - SM6GXV
> > > ___
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> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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> > and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Recommendation for cheap GBIP adapter for Linux

[Jeremy Nichols]

That is a good suggestion, Dana. My Prologix GPIB-to-Ethernet adapter is
made in a plastic case, so it certainly could radiate if it chose to do so.
I'll have to sniff around sometime while it's operating.

Jeremy

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:

> Beware-
>
> Many GPIB-to-Ethernet adapters are also very prolific RFI generators-
> learned the hard way at Arecibo.
>
> Dana
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Bob Bownes  wrote:
>
> >
> > All GPIB to Ethernet adapters are not created equal.
> >
> > The NI GPIB-E is no longer supported for example, only the 100 & 1000.
> >
> > Which is very annoying to those that have one.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Nov 18, 2017, at 17:45, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Given all the nonsense with USB drivers / “fake" serial chips / OS
> > restrictions ….
> > > The ethernet solution makes a lot of sense.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >> On Nov 18, 2017, at 4:45 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On 11/18/17 11:04 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>> I have a need for a GBIP adapter that I can use with Linux.
> > >>> It shouldn't be too expensive, but I rather spend a few bucks
> > >>> more for ease of use. Where "ease of use" means I don't have
> > >>> problems with weird drivers on Linux (Windows doesn't matter at all).
> > >>> I do not mind writing my own read-out software (that's quickly and
> > >>> easily done). What would people here recommend?
> > >>
> > >> I use the Prologix GPIB to Ethernet converters.
> > >>
> > >> Makes it "platform independent" since it's just an IP socket to the
> > outside world
> > >> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Newbie to Time Nuts; Seeking wisdom, re Hydrogen MASER applications

[Jeremy Nichols]

The TV series "How the States Got Their Shapes" mentions boundary errors
occasionally. There were some magnificent errors that took years to
resolve. In most cases today, the boundary is what it is and the fact that
it's a few inches or feet in error is usually ignored. Many boundaries are
a function of watercourses that change over time; the Mississippi is famous
for doing that such that there's actually a part of Illinois (I think) on
the west side of the Mississippi because the river changed its course.

Jeremy


On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 5:10 AM Mike Cook  wrote:

>
> > Le 13 nov. 2017 à 12:12, Hal Murray  a écrit :
> >
> >
> > michael.c...@sfr.fr said:
>  prior to my senior project most geodetic surveyors  used a Wooden
> boxed,
>  marine chronometer, to get sub second UT1 time, or  back then, GMT
> >
> >>> How did you get the data out of the wooden box?
> >
> >>  I have a couple of marine chronometers that have electrical contacts
> >> closing once a second. This signal is relayed by wires to terminals on
> the
> >> outside of the box.
> >
> > That gets you seconds if you count them.  How do you get sub seconds?
> Just
> > count time since the PPS using a normal crystal and it will be good
> enough?
>
>  In a sense.. When I was in the merchant navy in the 60s there were no
> crystal watches, so when taking sights we « transferred time » to a good
> 1/5sec stepping deck watch previously synchronized to the chronometer which
> of course was kept in the shelter of the Bridge. As this was done just
> prior to sights the offset would be known to less than or equal to that
> increment.  Marine chronometers may not be particularly accurate, but they
> can be extremely stable at about +/- 0.2sec or better per day variation.
> The daily drift being known from the clocks last rating, getting accurate
> offset timing from GMT was possible. The clocks themselves were re-rated
> every year. I’m in France and I don’t think that any borders in Europe were
> defined by astronomical observation, but in the US I believe that at least
> some of the state borders were thus fixed. As a second’s error in time will
> be about a nautical mile in US latitudes, I wonder if anyone has measured
> with GPS, how good the original
>   surveys were.?
>
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
> "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
> who have not got it. »
> George Bernard Shaw
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Room temperature control (was: Holdover, RTC for Pi as NTP GPS source)

[Jeremy Nichols]

I remember visiting the metrology lab in HP Palo Alto (Glen Whatshisname)
when I worked for them in the early 70s. There was a set of toggle switches
on the wall; for every person inside, one switch was turned on. I don't
know how well it worked but apparently, well enough for 1970s-vintage
metrology.

Jeremy


On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 11:08 AM Attila Kinali  wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Nov 2017 15:37:38 +0100
> Magnus Danielson  wrote:
>
> >  Silly people
> > want a relative comfortable temperature and well, building A/C is
> > typically bang/bang regulated so you get what you paid for.
>
> My short stint in the HVAC business taught me, that it's surprisingly
> difficult to stabilize room temperature to better than 2-5°C.
> It starts at such simple things as measuring the temperature.
> The position of the sensor and its distance to the wall make a huge
> difference. Just 1cm further away from the wall, or 10cm up or down and
> you get 2-3°C difference. An A/C system usually controls the temperature
> of the air inlet, which is the simplest thing to do, but actually you want
> to control the (heat) power flow into the room. And this is something that
> has not been possible with standard equipment until recently.
>
> The best we can do today is to have a well insulated room (no windows
> with whith unknown power flows) and measure the temperature at a few
> strategically choosen points. Then control the heat influx and
> outflux using an approriate control loop. This will still result
> in deviations of 1-2°C when somone walks in.
>
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-103AR frequency beyond adjustment

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thanks, Charles. I'll give it a try. Wanted to ask before attempting what
will be for me a new procedure.

I suppose I could also try replacing C117, the Fine Frequency Adjust
capacitor, to see if that has any effect. C117 is a 6.8-99 pf variable
geared to a shaft revolution counter. The counter is at maximum (600) but
the manual doesn't say if that is at the minimum or maximum end of the
capacitance.

I have the manual (got a copy from Artek) and read the oven temp procedure.
Tedious but do-able.

Jeremy


On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 5:50 AM Charles Steinmetz 
wrote:

> Jeremy wrote:
>
> > The only thing I've not adjusted is the oven temperature.
> > I know there's been discussion of this subject here in the
> > past but my searches come up empty—I must be using the wrong keywords.
> > The 103AR is just a toy for me so no harm is done if the frequency can't
> be
> > raised to 1 MHz but if it's possible I'd like to try. Have I missed
> something
> > somewhere?
>
> To adjust the frequency trim range, replace selected capacitor C103
> inside the oven (nominally 18pF).  Use a C0G/NP0 ceramic.  Note that HP
> indicates this "Component [is] not separately replaceable."  But at this
> point (nearly 60 years on), opening sealed oven assemblies has become
> routine for those who maintain old HP standards.
>
> The procedure for adjusting the oven temperature is described in
> paragraph 8-11 of the operating and service manual 01037-2 (printed Jan
> 1962).  Be advised it is somewhat tedious.
>
> If you do not have the manual, you can download it here:
>
> <
> http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=download=HP_Agilent/HP_103AR_quartz_oscillator_op_service_manual_1962.pdf
> >
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
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[time-nuts] HP-103AR frequency beyond adjustment

[Jeremy Nichols]

My HP-103AR has drifted beyond the ability of the "coarse" and "fine"
frequency adjustment capacitors. The 1 MHz output measures 0.999 9992 MHz
and will not go higher. The only thing I've not adjusted is the oven
temperature. I know there's been discussion of this subject here in the
past but my searches come up empty—I must be using the wrong keywords. The
103AR is just a toy for me so no harm is done if the frequency can't be
raised to 1 MHz but if it's possible I'd like to try. Have I missed
something somewhere?

Jeremy

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Re: [time-nuts] Book review: "How We Got To Now."

[Jeremy Nichols]

Ordered a copy, thanks Nick.

Jeremy


On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 8:50 PM Mike Naruta AA8K  wrote:

>
> He also did a six part documentary on PBS in 2014.
>
> Great thinking.
>
>
> On 09/04/2017 10:32 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
> > I happened to be at Powell's bookstore in Portland the day after the
> eclipse and came across this book and wound up buying it. It's attraction
> to me was the same that I felt growing up watching the documentaries hosted
> by James Burke - Connections and The Day The Universe Changed.
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] ***SPAM*** Tsunami detection via GPS

[Jeremy Nichols]

Likewise, I noticed no effect of the eclipse on my plumbing job (replacing
the pressure tank, which started leaking after only 40 years). Then again,
it was overcast all day.

Jeremy


On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:40 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Oddly enough we were in the process of wine tasting as the eclipse
> happened on the
> other side of the cloud bank. We noticed no disruption in the timing of
> our sips ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Aug 22, 2017, at 3:58 PM, Mike Cook  wrote:
> >
> > Hi you guys over the pond.
> >
> > Don’t be shy.
> > Did anyone measure their oscillators stability over the eclipse
> totality? Please share.
> > How about GPS?
> > Did you record the crickets?
> > Did the birds fly south?
> > Did your excess milage increase global warning.
> > Did the lights go out?
> > Did anyone in your immediate entourage turn into a witch?
> >
> > I can understand if you weren’t making any scientific observations. When
> it last happened here, I limited mine to observing the phenomenon through a
> glass of Côte du Rhone.
> > Magic.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> >> Le 20 août 2017 à 14:05, Jim Palfreyman  a écrit :
> >>
> >> Some here may find this of interest.
> >>
> >> http://www2.unb.ca/gge/Resources/gpsworld.february08.pdf
> >>
> >>
> >> Jim Palfreyman
> >> ___
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> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
> who have not got it. »
> > George Bernard Shaw
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt no longer determines the correct date

[Jeremy Nichols]

Agreed. Re-inventing stuff from twenty years ago was uneconomic and
possibly impossible when I was in Silicon Valley, twenty years ago.

Jeremy

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Best guess is that the “real work” on the firmware took place …errr… a bit
> over 19.6 years ago.
> That’s a massively long time ago in terms of development tools and
> hardware. Simply getting
> a tool suite back up and going on the “old code” would be a big task in
> most organizations. Ask
> me about stuff I did 20 years ago and you’ll get a bit of a blank stare.
> That assumes you still have
> me on the payroll. Dig into it from scratch with nobody having direct
> experience … yikes.  Yes, I’ve
> been involved in those sort of projects, they rarely end well ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Aug 11, 2017, at 12:51 PM, Mark Spencer 
> wrote:
> >
> > Nice post Tom.  I was also wondering about the replacement hardware vs
> software patch issue.  Just speculation on my part but perhaps changing the
> software involves an extensive QA / test process, vs swapping out a piece
> of hardware ?   Again this is just pure speculation on my part.
> >
> > Mark Spencer
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 11, 2017, at 9:26 AM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:
> >
> >>> The E911 installation, in the news, is just one of several. Others are
> hospitals,
> >>> fire stations, etc. using different dispatch systems.
> >>
> >> Hey, at least important things like mobile phones, ISP's, Google,
> Amazon, FedEx and Starbucks aren't affected ;-)
> >>
> >>> In a wide-area simulcast-overlap paging system, the transmitters in
> the same
> >>> coverage area are carefully set to all transmit at exactly the same
> time.
> >>
> >> That's fine. And very clever. But why is this "life safety" system tied
> to GPS, to a particular vendor, to a particular model of receiver (that
> clearly states in the documentation that it has a 1024 week / 19.6 year
> window of valid UTC times)?
> >>
> >>> So to me "synchronizing transmitters” means the control system sends
> the
> >>> traffic out to all the transmitters (over satellite) and tells them
> all to hold the
> >>> messages in a buffer until “the big hand points straight up” or
> whatever data
> >>> command the system uses. (excuse the vernacular)
> >>
> >> Exactly. In most of the precise timing world the "big hand" is the "top
> of the second", or the so-called 1 PPS pulse. The idea is that all 1PPS
> agree with each other, whether from a cesium clock, or WWVB receiver, or
> NTP, or GPS (or any other GNSS system).
> >>
> >> Since the paging system failed it sounds like it was synchronized to
> some "hand" other than 1PPS. The rare GPS rollover events tend not to
> disrupt the 1PPS output -- it is still perfectly aligned with UTC -- which
> is why almost no one else worries about the recent TBolt episode, or any
> other GPS receiver for that matter.
> >>
> >>> The problems being experienced right now appear to be the interface of
> the ThunderBolt
> >>> with the Zetron Model 620 simulcast controller over TSIP. The Zetron
> box is also called
> >>> a “wireless data encoder.”
> >>
> >> Ah, ok. So do you or anyone have contact within Zetron? The easy fix
> would be for them to upgrade their firmware and send out a patch. Probably
> cheaper than supplying new receivers from Trimble. I don't know; for us, a
> s/w fix is easy compared to a h/w fix or a h/w swap-out. But in the real
> world, once technicians have driven to a remote installation, maybe there's
> no real difference between a s/w fix and a h/w swap.
> >>
> >>> It is not our goal to blame a particular piece of equipment for this
> problem.
> >>
> >> Right, no need to blame. I think many of us would just want to pinpoint
> the root cause of the problem, out of engineering curiosity. By root cause
> I mean actual schematics or lines of source code. It's always been my hope,
> after every one of these widespread infrastructure events, that the actual
> source code or design decisions be published eventually so that we can all
> learn from it.
> >>
> >>> The facts are the 1024 roll over happened and just about nobody in the
> paging
> >>> business knew it was coming.
> >>
> >> Ok, now you know about GPS rollovers! Fun, isn't it? Leap seconds are
> fun too.
> >>
> >> When the dust settles, you may want to look into the more general topic
> of life safety infrastructure vs. free-from-the-sky time & frequency. These
> days nanosecond precise time is cheaper than water -- but it's also
> fragile. A lot has been written about this. It's both a wake-up call for
> naive vendors of products based on GPS alone and also an opportunity for
> vendors who know how to design and market resilient timing products.
> >>
> >> /tvb
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> and 

Re: [time-nuts] interesting HP divider and clock on ebay

[Jeremy Nichols]

The inside looks very much like the inside of the 113. Different layout but
similar components and, it appears, also a 1 KHz motor.

J.


On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 8:22 PM paul swed  wrote:

> Thanks Tom I am familiar with the unit and this looks really nice. But
> won't be in my rack.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:
>
> > > Boy I have to say the front looks great. Good pixs to look at.
> > > Price not exciting at all. But maybe someone has a spare kilo-buck.
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > More info on the hp 115:
> >
> > http://hpmemoryproject.org/wb_pages/wall_b_page_01.htm
> >
> > /tvb
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] interesting HP divider and clock on ebay

[Jeremy Nichols]

If the 115 has no motor (and I'm not questioning you, Bill) what moves the
"digital" numbers? It looks like a clock drive, and the 1968 HP catalog
makes reference to an "additional drum," which also sounds like a motor
drive.

Jeremy


On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 7:11 PM Bill Hawkins <bill.i...@pobox.com> wrote:

> You don't have to use the long link. Just search eBay for item
> #232426132876.
>
> It's pricey because it is from one of those resellers of surplus
> laboratory equipment. Who was that outfit in Texas?
>
> The front picture reveals that the desiccant is saturated (indicator is
> pink). Rear view shows blackened silver BNC connectors. These suggest
> that the instrument hasn't been reconditioned to merit that price. OTOH
> it could be R@@RE.
>
> Owned a 113B a few years ago. The 1 KC stepping motor does scream. Doubt
> that there's a motor in the 115.
>
> Would be interested in a repairable unit to measure my declining years -
> not for resale.
>
> Bill Hawkins
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy
> Nichols
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 8:12 PM
>
> Definitely spendy. Is the 115 as noisy as the 113 (similar but w/analog
> clock)? Wonder what *les douanes* would charge to get that back into
> USA?
> Could you claim an exemption because it was Made in USA?
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 5:32 PM Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:
>
> > > Boy I have to say the front looks great. Good pixs to look at.
> > > Price not exciting at all. But maybe someone has a spare kilo-buck.
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > More info on the hp 115:
> >
> > http://hpmemoryproject.org/wb_pages/wall_b_page_01.htm
> >
> > /tvb
> > ___
>
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Re: [time-nuts] interesting HP divider and clock on ebay

[Jeremy Nichols]

Definitely spendy. Is the 115 as noisy as the 113 (similar but w/analog
clock)? Wonder what *les douanes* would charge to get that back into USA?
Could you claim an exemption because it was Made in USA?

Jeremy


On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 5:32 PM Tom Van Baak  wrote:

> > Boy I have to say the front looks great. Good pixs to look at.
> > Price not exciting at all. But maybe someone has a spare kilo-buck.
>
> Paul,
>
> More info on the hp 115:
>
> http://hpmemoryproject.org/wb_pages/wall_b_page_01.htm
>
> /tvb
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[time-nuts] HP-103AR Oscillator is dead

[Jeremy Nichols]

My new-to-me HP-103AR Quartz Oscillator works perfectly . . . except for
the oscillator in its oven! The oscillator gets power (-20V) but produces
no output. The amplifiers and 100 KHz divider work correctly if I inject a
signal from an external oscillator. The power supply and oven circuits work.

The manual says only to return the oven package to the factory. I can find
only one mention of anyone in this list trying to take a 103AR
oscillator/oven apart and that was back in 2009. Has anyone since done any
work and has tips to share?

Jeremy
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[time-nuts] HP-113AR vs. BR differences?

[Jeremy Nichols]

I'm trying to understand the differences between the HP-113AR and 113BR
"Frequency Divider and Clock." From the pictures, the AR lacks a
front-panel BNC for the clock 'tick,' having only three BNCs instead of the
four that the BR version has. Didier's site has a manual for the 113BR but
I've not yet found one for the AR. There was a discussion here in 2007, in
which a David Forbes of Tucson, AZ wrote that he had a 113AR manual. Any
information or leads would be appreciated.

Jeremy

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Re: [time-nuts] Ed Tuck, founder of Magellan, dies

[Jeremy Nichols]

Fenton's first name was *Rupert*.


On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 9:43 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:

> Back in the day,  I talked with him several times and worked on some
> issues with their original GPS board firmware.
>
> Lady Heather actually started out as a program to control their first OEM
> boards ($800 each, qty 1... unheard of at the time).  It was written around
> the time of the first gulf war when the whole military inventory of GPS
> boards was well under 1000 units and they needed a lot more GPS units very
> quickly.  The program could run on a PC or the HP 95LX palmtop.
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Re: [time-nuts] Ed Tuck, founder of Magellan, dies

[Jeremy Nichols]

Arthur Clarke wrote "Silence Please" between 1953 and 1956, according to
his Preface to Tales From the White Hart." Only 60 years and we have real
silencers! (For extra credit, what was Fenton's first name?)

J.


On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 10:06 AM jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> On 7/14/17 7:55 AM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
> > Thanks for the link! Also interesting, Mr. Tuck's middle name was
> "Fenton,"
> > aka the "Fenton Silencer."
>
> Aka active noise canceller.. actually real these days
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Ed Tuck, founder of Magellan, dies

[Jeremy Nichols]

Yes, I have a set of Klipsch headphones that do that. They're a few years
old so probably old technology but they do seem to help in noisy
situations.

J.


On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 10:06 AM jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> On 7/14/17 7:55 AM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
> > Thanks for the link! Also interesting, Mr. Tuck's middle name was
> "Fenton,"
> > aka the "Fenton Silencer."
>
> Aka active noise canceller.. actually real these days
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Ed Tuck, founder of Magellan, dies

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thanks for the link! Also interesting, Mr. Tuck's middle name was "Fenton,"
aka the "Fenton Silencer."

J.


On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 6:44 AM jimlux  wrote:

>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/ed-tuck-investor-who-made-gps-usable-for-boaters-and-bubbas-dies-at-85/2017/07/05/69e96744-618e-11e7-a4f7-af34fc1d9d39_story.html?utm_term=.8ef0e88eb2ba
>
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Re: [time-nuts] BTTF : Austron 1210-C Crystal Clock

[Jeremy Nichols]

The 100C was the de-rated version of the 100D, which DID have a clock. The
eBay listing is #172415409793 for $71.95 plus a whole lot for shipping.
It's been listed for a couple of months.


On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:58 AM Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There's a 100C on eBay now, cheap, but it doesn't have a clock.
>
> Jeremy
>
> On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:51 PM Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Maybe a version of this?:
>>
>> http://leapsecond.com/history/Benchmark.htm
>>
>> The audible (1 kc) whine was probably from the model 113 or 115. See if
>> any of the following pages remind you:
>>
>> http://leapsecond.com/hpclocks/
>> http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/hewlett_pa_frequency_divider_and_cl.html
>> http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1959-11.pdf
>> http://hpmemoryproject.org/wb_pages/wall_b_page_01.htm
>> http://hpmemoryproject.org/news/2012/vintage_01.htm
>>
>> /tvb
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Jim Harman" <j99har...@gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
>> time-nuts@febo.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 7:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] BTTF : Austron 1210-C Crystal Clock
>>
>>
>> > On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:01 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> But perhaps whats magical gold is the Patek Phillipe clock movement.
>> Just a
>> >> guess.I hear they are quite annoying clunkers actually. I have never
>> owned
>> >> one but a fellow in Europe was telling me you can really here them
>> tick.
>> >>
>> >
>> > In my first job back in 1973 I inherited a lab that included what must
>> have
>> > been an HP 100C frequency reference. It took up most of a rack and
>> divided
>> > down a 100KHz oscillator with cascaded injection-locked 10:1
>> multivibrators
>> > that used metal octal-base tubes. The final frequency of 100 Hz drove a
>> > beautiful clock that made a very audible whine when it was working. This
>> > must have been an option because I don't see any reference to it in the
>> > 100C manual.
>> >
>> > At the bottom of the rack was a Hammarlund radio to tune in WWV for
>> > calibration.
>> >
>> > IIRC the clock motor also drove an adjustable cam and microswitch. The
>> > receiver's audio was fed through the switch. I think the idea was that
>> you
>> > could accurately measure the oscillator drift by adjusting the phase of
>> the
>> > cam until you could hear WWV's tick during the short time the switch was
>> > closed.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > --Jim Harman
>>
>>
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Re: [time-nuts] BTTF : Austron 1210-C Crystal Clock

[Jeremy Nichols]

There's a 100C on eBay now, cheap, but it doesn't have a clock.

Jeremy

On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:51 PM Tom Van Baak  wrote:

> Hi Jim,
>
> Maybe a version of this?:
>
> http://leapsecond.com/history/Benchmark.htm
>
> The audible (1 kc) whine was probably from the model 113 or 115. See if
> any of the following pages remind you:
>
> http://leapsecond.com/hpclocks/
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/hewlett_pa_frequency_divider_and_cl.html
> http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1959-11.pdf
> http://hpmemoryproject.org/wb_pages/wall_b_page_01.htm
> http://hpmemoryproject.org/news/2012/vintage_01.htm
>
> /tvb
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jim Harman" 
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2017 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] BTTF : Austron 1210-C Crystal Clock
>
>
> > On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:01 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> >
> >> But perhaps whats magical gold is the Patek Phillipe clock movement.
> Just a
> >> guess.I hear they are quite annoying clunkers actually. I have never
> owned
> >> one but a fellow in Europe was telling me you can really here them tick.
> >>
> >
> > In my first job back in 1973 I inherited a lab that included what must
> have
> > been an HP 100C frequency reference. It took up most of a rack and
> divided
> > down a 100KHz oscillator with cascaded injection-locked 10:1
> multivibrators
> > that used metal octal-base tubes. The final frequency of 100 Hz drove a
> > beautiful clock that made a very audible whine when it was working. This
> > must have been an option because I don't see any reference to it in the
> > 100C manual.
> >
> > At the bottom of the rack was a Hammarlund radio to tune in WWV for
> > calibration.
> >
> > IIRC the clock motor also drove an adjustable cam and microswitch. The
> > receiver's audio was fed through the switch. I think the idea was that
> you
> > could accurately measure the oscillator drift by adjusting the phase of
> the
> > cam until you could hear WWV's tick during the short time the switch was
> > closed.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > --Jim Harman
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Free to a good home: HP 100E Freq. Standard

[Jeremy Nichols]

I'd love to have one but yes, shipping from D.C. to CA would be at least
$100 and more if you wanted it to arrive in one piece. This one should go
to an enthusiast in the mid-east (is that the correct term for the middle
Atlantic states?). 

Jeremy
N6WFO


On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 4:58 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> If there are no takers from the rest of the list, I’ll drive down and pick
> it up. Shipping a beast like this
> is a royal pain. Let’s wait a couple weeks and see if anybody else wants
> it.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jun 5, 2017, at 2:48 PM, Neal MacDonald  wrote:
> >
> > I have an HP 100E Frequency Standard that I found at a garage sale and
> bought on a whim a while ago. I don’t have much use for it, but it seems
> like a shame to toss it so I figured I’d offer it up here. It’s yours for
> free, just pay shipping costs from the DC area. I was told by the original
> owner that the vertical deflection doesn’t work, but I didn’t have the
> technical knowhow to attempt to diagnose the issue. I also have a scanned
> copy of the original manual I can pass along.
> >
> > Some info here: http://hpmemoryproject.org/news/100e/hp100e_page_00.htm
> 
> > Pictures here: https://imgur.com/a/JL8h4 
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Neal
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Re: [time-nuts] Rack needed in SF Bay Area

[Jeremy Nichols]

If you can't find anything fitting your requirements, check Weirdstuff
Warehouse, 384 W. Caribbean Dr., Sunnyvale, 408-743-5650, 9:30am-6:00pm. In
2015 they had nice aluminum racks for $50 by Chatsworth Products ~7 feet
high and rack shelves $15

Jeremy

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 8:32 PM, Jerry Hancock  wrote:

> Anyone in the SF bay area have a rack that is surplus to your needs?
>
> Please reply to cl...@hanler.com
>
> thanks
>
> Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS history

[Jeremy Nichols]

Alas, I don't get CSPAN-3. Maybe someone will put it on YouTube.

J.


On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 4:11 PM Craig Kirkpatrick <craig...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> https://www.c-span.org/video/?427553-2/global-positioning-system-history <
> https://www.c-span.org/video/?427553-2/global-positioning-system-history>
>
>
> > On Jun 2, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thank a for the tip!
> >
> > CSPAN or CSPN2?
> >
> > What's the name of the program? Time and time zone? My provider lists
> only
> > generic titles for the various programs, makes it nearly impossible to
> find
> > a specific item like your program on GPS.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 1:21 PM Mike Naruta AA8K <a...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I notice that tomorrow CSPAN will have Richard Easton and Eric
> >> Frazier discuss the history and evolution of the global
> >> positioning system.
> >>
> >> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS history

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thank a for the tip!

CSPAN or CSPN2?

What's the name of the program? Time and time zone? My provider lists only
generic titles for the various programs, makes it nearly impossible to find
a specific item like your program on GPS.

Jeremy


On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 1:21 PM Mike Naruta AA8K  wrote:

>
> I notice that tomorrow CSPAN will have Richard Easton and Eric
> Frazier discuss the history and evolution of the global
> positioning system.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Two pieces of old General Radio Freq. Nuts

[Jeremy Nichols]

HP used GR connectors in the 1415A Time Domain Reflectometer plug-in for
the 140-family of oscilloscopes. I believe this is the only use of the GR
connector in HP's "common" test instruments.

Jeremy


On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 10:13 PM Bill Byrom  wrote:

> Yes, the GR-874 was used on a number of Tektronix products introduced in
> the 1960's and 1970's.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GR_connector
> http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/GR-874_connector
>
> Both the GR-874 and APC-7 connectors are sexless, and any connector can
> mate with any other.
> --
> Bill Byrom N5BB
>
> - Original message -
> From: Gary Woods 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Two pieces of old General Radio Freq. Nuts
> Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 23:21:11 -0400
> ...
> Neat stuff...did anybody but GR use those hermaphrodite connectors?  I
> have
> an adapter for them that came with a wide-band amplifier; "delay line"
> type, with a whole row of, I think, 6AK5s in it.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP10811 Oscillator Thermal Fuse

[Jeremy Nichols]

I had a vaguely similar situation with a pressure switch for the pump in my
home's water supply. The electrical contacts in the pressure switch have to
handle about 10 Amps at 250 Volts (our line voltage is on the high side).
Over the years, the contacts burn and become "ohmic" contacts, gradually
increasing in resistance. Early one morning the contacts finally got so
resistive they couldn't pass enough current to start the pump. Since the
water pressure never came up, the switch never shut off. It got hotter and
hotter and finally burst into flame. I found out about it at 4:00 AM when a
smoke alarm woke me. An extinguisher was sufficient to dowse the flames
although the local fire fighters were called as a precaution, me being
still half asleep. When I replaced the pressure switch, I added a thermal
fuse as protection should that problem ever recur.

Jeremy



On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 4:04 PM Donald E. Pauly 
wrote:

> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/date.html
>
> This is the third report of an open thermistor which would have
> resulted in a fire in an HP10811 oven.  There are a dozen other
> problems that could cause such a fire.  See
> http://gonascent.com/papers/hp/hp10811/thermal.jpg .  The leads are
> long enough that they can be soldered quickly without a heat sink if
> the socket is to be replaced for better reliability.  A hemostat can
> also be used to heatsink the leads one at a time.  We have the 108° C
> fuse which is prone to nuisance blows.  HP has superceded it with a
> 125° C version.  Panasonic seems to make a direct replacement.  It is
> stocked by Digikey for under a dollar.  I can find no reports of a
> nuisance blow of the 125° version of the thermal fuse in a HP10811.
> All nuisance blows seem to be in the 108° version.
>
> In the 1970s, many consumer electronic products with 60 cps power
> transformers had a thermal fuse inside them.  I bought a Sony real to
> real stereo tape deck which was not working with that problem.  It was
> a nuisance blow since no problems existed in the tape deck.  I
> installed a fine gauge piece of solder since the fuse was close to
> 180° C.  I used it for over two years with no problems.
>
> Later model switching power supplies have windings of several volts
> per turn.  Shorts in these transformers will blow the fuse or destroy
> the switching transistors.  A 60 cps transformer operates at a small
> fraction of a volt per turn. A few shorted turns in a will not draw an
> excessive primary current but merely causes a hot spot.  The hot spot
> will grow as additional turns short.  Line current will not be greatly
> excessive even as the transformer heats up.  It can catch fire well
> before the fuse blows.
>
> I saw a living room that caught fire because of a 60 cps transformer
> in a stereo receiver.  The line breaker never tripped.  But for the
> grace of G-d, the house would have burnt down.  A thermal fuse in the
> transformer would have prevented several thousand dollars of damage.
> That would have paid for over a thousand thermal fuses.
>
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
> WB0KVV
>
>  Forwarded message --
> From: David G. McGaw 
> Date: Wed, May 10, 2017 at 8:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fwd: HP10811 Oscillator Thermal Fuse
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts@febo.com>
>
> I too have had a fuse open up due to a failed thermistor in a HP10811.
>
> David N1HAC
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Jeremy Nichols]

Update: The 4011s arrived in good condition. The sockets arrived today 
(I ordered a whole bunch with various numbers of machined pins as Tom 
Miller recommended). All the sockets were of the "good" kind except for 
the 14-pin sockets, which were the cheap kind in accord with Murphy's 
Law. :-(


Pause while I get the right kind of 14-pin socket.

Jeremy

On 4/4/2017 11:52 AM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
Thanks, everyone, for your inputs. I've ordered some NOS 4011s (made 
by National Semi, mildly ironic since I used to work there) and some 
supposedly round pin sockets (the reviews were mixed—some folks got 
good stuff, some got junk).


I'll update the thread once I have everything here and installed.

Jeremy


On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:01 PM Tom Miller <tmiller11...@verizon.net 
<mailto:tmiller11...@verizon.net>> wrote:


Also, you might install a high quality machined pin socket. Save the
non-replaceable PC board.

- Original Message -
From: "David C. Partridge" <david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk
<mailto:david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk>>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
<time-nuts@febo.com <mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds


> You can get a brand new CD4011BE from pretty much most suppliers
at about
> 15 cents that won't exhibit the problems of the earlier ones.
>
> Dave
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com
<mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com>] On Behalf Of Jeremy
> Nichols
> Sent: 04 April 2017 00:44
> To: time-nuts@febo.com <mailto:time-nuts@febo.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds
>
> I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock
works on both
> the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard
> (GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats
without
> updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW)
push-buttons work
> but again, the count will not update minutes and hours, only
seconds. The
> DAY SET procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other
> switches and buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my
10526T
> logic pulser I can force the minutes and hours counters to work.
> The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few
> components) and I see no other problems (yet).
>
> Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me
to U3 on
> the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a
14-pin DIP
> package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes
counter and
> appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list
> <hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com>> commented that the
4000 series CMOS
> chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no
longer in
> production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I
might find
> to buy may be DOA.
>
> Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from
anyone in the
> group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the
4000-series CMOS
> family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011
chip? If
> the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a
substitute.
>
> Jeremy, N6WFO
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] UltrAtomic® Clock

[Jeremy Nichols]

My LaCrosse UltrAtomic® clock arrived yesterday from Amazon. In my case, 
the clock wasn't assembled on a Monday or a Friday, so nothing rattled, 
and the packaging defeated the animals in shipping. The clock was 
stopped, of course, at exactly 12:00. I installed four C-cells (big 
spender!), replaced the battery cover, and turned the clock over. The 
hands moved around to 4:00 and stopped. I hung the clock on an inside 
wall (facing west in my single-story northern California home) and I 
went about my business. Ten minutes later I checked back and the clock 
had set itself to the correct time. Happy camper!


Jeremy, N6WFO


On 4/12/2017 10:34 AM, Gregory Beat wrote:

My long-time (and accurate) 12-inch analog kitchen clock (24 years) dropped to 
floor in March, as I was adjusting for Daylight Savings Time.  Of course, the 
polycarbonate lens cover cracked and I could not find a replacement.  The 
manufacturer, General Time of Athens, GA (handled Seth Thomas, others) closed 
their operations in 2000.
===
So, I decided to order the LaCrosse UltrAtomic® clock.
My experience, in setting it up this clock, was the same as noted by Larry.
Took less than 90 minutes ... and agrees with my GPS/NTP server with IRIG 
displays.

One caveat, while the clock was well packed, I heard a "rattle".
Sometime, during this clock's assembly, the portion of the plastic retention 
lip for the glass/aluminum frame was broken off at the top (aggressive 
assembler or flaw in plastic molding?).
Since I purchased the clock directly from LaCrosse, I sent them photos.
They are sending a replacement clock with a return label for this one.

greg
w9gb
Sent from iPad Air
--
From: Larry McDavid 
Subject: [time-nuts] UltrAtomic® Clock

When I got home after my Thursday Lunch meeting today, my new La Crosse 404-1235UA-SS 
UltrAtomic® clock was waiting. I unpacked it and installed two (of 4 possible) C-cells 
and set it on the floor upstairs near the center of my home, fully under the radiant 
barrier insulation that has foiled (that's a pun!) all my previous "Atomic" 
clocks. The hands moved around 4 hours and stopped. I left.

Returning about an hour later, the clock had set itself correctly!

I verified the displayed time against my (Tindie) GPS Clock and the seconds and 
seconds-tick match as closely as I can determine visually.
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 100D FS [WAS: HP 105D FS]

[Jeremy Nichols]

Up through and including the 101A, only the crystal was ovenized; the
oscillator itself was not temperature controlled other than via the
environment in which it lived. Given that the 100 series was mostly vacuum
tubes, that is understandable. I was a little surprised to discover that
the solid-state 101A had only the crystal in its oven and, in fact, its
specs are no better than the vacuum-tube 100E. Later models moved more and
more stuff into the oven and the specs got better.

Jeremy


On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 1:02 PM Charles Steinmetz 
wrote:

> Perry wrote:
>
> > The HP oscillator is a 100D Low Frequency Standard..
> > Sorry for the brain fart.
>
> For a bit more information on the 100D (and 100C), see the October, 1949
> Hewlett Packard Journal:
>
> 
>
> Note the accuracy and stability specs:
>
> ACCURACY:  Average stability is within approximately two parts per
> million per week.
>
> STABILITY:  Within one part per million over short time intervals, such
> as required to make a measurement.
>
> The price in 1949 was $600 f.o.b. Palo Alto.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Line Frequeny Stablity

[Jeremy Nichols]

A fun way to monitor the state of the grid is to watch the web site of
the Power
Information Technology Laboratory  at the University
of Tennessee , Their site lists in both tabular and
graphical (map) form the frequency of the grid. Most of it is USA-based but
there are a few other countries also monitored.

I have one of the monitors (in the table display page <
http://fnetpublic.utk.edu/tabledisplay.html> my monitor is #853 in the
Western Interconnection—I'm in California).

The monitors, about the size of a thick hardback book, plug into a
convenient AC line outlet, connect to your Internet router, and have a
small puck-style GPS antenna so that it knows the time and where it is. The
unit has an LCD display of date, time, line voltage, and line frequency.
The voltage is shown to 3 decimal digits of resolution and the frequency to
four digits.

I got my monitor from the U of T after I sent them a report on my home-made
monitor's results. It's interesting to watch the frequency wander up and
down but always average very close to 60.000 Hz. They saw I had an interest
and offered me one of their toys. The only thing it doesn't do is connect
to my PC so I can monitor it long-term. I suppose if I were clever with
network stuff there'd be a way to tap into its data stream.

Jeremy, N6WFO


On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> Back in high school, one of the radio club members figured out that the
> “clock adjustment” took place
> locally between 4:30 and 5:00 PM. Needless to say, pretty much everybody
> spent the next week listening
> to WWV and watching the clock’s second hand go out of sync with the beeps.
> This was back in the  late 1960’s
> and the idea of a grid was a bit looser than it is today. Indeed it was
> post 1964 so there *were* grids big
> enough to take out the whole north east section of the US. Since we were
> very much in that area the
> topic of grid sync came up. Nobody ever really had a good answer to that
> question. That included the
> guys who ran the local power company.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Apr 5, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> >
> >
> > preilley_...@comcast.net said:
> >> When I installed power plants in the 1970's they has a special "clock"
> that
> >> showed the cumulative error in terms of clock time.
> >
> > How big were the grids back then?
> >
> > What was the typical range of error over a day or month?
> >
> >
> >> If the generator ran a little too fast the clock would move forward.
> As
> >> the operator observed the clock moving away from zero he would reduce
> the
> >> plant's  power and the clock would move backward toward zero.  ...
> >
> > Does that operator control a single generator or a whole grid?
> >
> > Does having a human in the loop help the control loop stability?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thanks, everyone, for your inputs. I've ordered some NOS 4011s (made by
National Semi, mildly ironic since I used to work there) and some
supposedly round pin sockets (the reviews were mixed—some folks got good
stuff, some got junk).

I'll update the thread once I have everything here and installed.

Jeremy


On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 11:01 PM Tom Miller <tmiller11...@verizon.net> wrote:

> Also, you might install a high quality machined pin socket. Save the
> non-replaceable PC board.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "David C. Partridge" <david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk>
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds
>
>
> > You can get a brand new CD4011BE from pretty much most suppliers at about
> > 15 cents that won't exhibit the problems of the earlier ones.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy
> > Nichols
> > Sent: 04 April 2017 00:44
> > To: time-nuts@febo.com
> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds
> >
> > I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both
> > the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard
> > (GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without
> > updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons
> work
> > but again, the count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The
> > DAY SET procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other
> > switches and buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T
> > logic pulser I can force the minutes and hours counters to work.
> > The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few
> > components) and I see no other problems (yet).
> >
> > Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on
> > the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP
> > package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and
> > appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list
> > <hp_agilent_equipm...@yahoogroups.com> commented that the 4000 series
> CMOS
> > chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in
> > production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find
> > to buy may be DOA.
> >
> > Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the
> > group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series
> CMOS
> > family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If
> > the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.
> >
> > Jeremy, N6WFO
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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[time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Jeremy Nichols]

I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on 
both the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard 
(GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without 
updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons 
work but again, the count will not update minutes and hours, only 
seconds. The DAY SET procedure works correctly for days and months. All 
the other switches and buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 
10526T logic pulser I can force the minutes and hours counters to work. 
The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few 
components) and I see no other problems (yet).


Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on 
the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP 
package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and 
appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list 
 commented that the 4000 series 
CMOS chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no 
longer in production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I 
might find to buy may be DOA.


Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the 
group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series 
CMOS family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 
chip? If the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a 
substitute.


Jeremy, N6WFO


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Re: [time-nuts] Smart Phone time display accuracy...?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Ahh, I got the wrong app. Now, with the right app, my iPad shows -.001 and
my iPod Touch shows +0.216. Thank you!

Jeremy


On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 7:01 AM David J Taylor <
david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> From: Jeremy Nichols
>
> I have that app but don't see an option to display "the offset between
> NTP time and the device's internal clock." Please guide me.
>
> Jeremy
> =
>
> Jeremy,
>
> Top right corner of the display.  My iPad Pro 9.7 shows +0.003 at the
> moment.
>
> See:
>   https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/emerald-time/id290384375?mt=8
>
> where it's -0.001
>
> Cheers,
> David
> --
> SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
> Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
> Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
> Twitter: @gm8arv
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Smart Phone time display accuracy...?

[Jeremy Nichols]

I have that app but don't see an option to display "the offset between 
NTP time and the device's internal clock." Please guide me.


Jeremy


On 3/18/2017 9:37 AM, Glen Hoag wrote:

On my iPhone, I run an NTP client, Emerald Time, that displays the offset 
between NTP time and the device's internal clock.

I'm on T-Mobile US and the offset is typically in the low tens of milliseconds 
or better.

It's certainly accurate enough as a clock where all I'm looking at is one 
minute resolution.

Glen Hoag
h...@hiwaay.net
Sent from my iPhone


On Mar 18, 2017, at 09:52, John Hawkinson  wrote:

Chris Albertson  wrote on Fri, 17 Mar 2017
at 14:38:17 -0700 in 

Re: [time-nuts] Vintage Frequency Measurement

[Jeremy Nichols]

[Hopefully this time my post is in the required plain-text format!]

The solid-state HP-5210A and its vacuum-tube predecessors, the 
HP-500A/B/C family, were analog frequency measuring instruments. The 
circuitry summed the input frequency (converted into pulses) and 
generated an analog voltage to display on a meter. Higher frequency 
meant more pulses and thus a higher voltage. My 5210A goes up to 10 MHz 
and is surprisingly accurate although the resolution, even with an 
expanded-scale switch, is only three digits. A nice tool in the 5210A is 
an FM discriminator with adjustable filters.


Jeremy


On 2/11/2017 10:08 PM, Scott Stobbe wrote:

I was inspired recently coming across a Lampkin 105 frequency meter, as to
how  frequency measurement was done before counters.

Certainly zero-beating a dial calibrated oscillator, would be one approach.

Is there a standout methodology or instrument predating counters?
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Re: [time-nuts] purpose of time of day display units

[Jeremy Nichols]

I have done something similar to one of my cars so that, for example, an
LED that tells me when the a/c compressor's electric clutch cycles on and
off. Things like this are partly eye candy, partly educational (things
don't always work quite like I assume they do), and partly a valuable
diagnostic tool when something breaks.

Jeremy


On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 6:01 PM Hal Murray  wrote:

> jim...@earthlink.net said:
>
> > 3) It's a crude visual check - your eye/brain is pretty good at
> catching  a
>
> > change in the pattern of blinky lights.  IN this situation, you'd  expect
>
> > all the displays to change simultaneously.
>
>
>
> Is there a term similar to "eye candy" for geeks?
>
>
>
> Many years ago, I designed network gear.  That was back when a controller
> was
>
> a board full of small and medium sized chips rather than a single big chip.
>
> I always put a few LEDs on the board wired up where the microcode could get
>
> at them.  Most of the time they were just eye candy.  But occasionally I
>
> would borrow one and hack the microcode so a LED would be interesting on a
>
> scope.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>
> To unsubscribe, go to
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>
> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] σ vs s in ADEV

[Jeremy Nichols]

In the late 1960s, Hewlett-Packard engineers worked up a program to have
the 5360A "Computing Pig" (so-called from its weight, 55 pounds without
plug-ins) compute a "fractional frequency standard deviation." It appears
to be similar to the Allen Deviation; I've never figured out the difference
and would appreciate hearing from someone with stronger math skills who can
explain the two.

Jeremy


On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 2:00 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
>
>
> > On Jan 9, 2017, at 4:49 PM, Magnus Danielson 
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Scott,
>
> >
>
> > On 01/09/2017 07:41 PM, Scott Stobbe wrote:
>
> >> I could be wrong here, but it is my understanding that Allan's
> pioneering
>
> >> work was in response to finding a statistic which is convergent to 1/f
>
> >> noise. Ordinary standard deviation is not convergent to 1/f processes.
> So I
>
> >> don't know that trying to compare the two is wise. Disclaimer: I could
> be
>
> >> totally wrong, if someone has better grasp on how the allan deviation
> came
>
> >> to be, please correct me.
>
> >
>
> > There where precursor work to Allans Feb 1966 article, but essentially
> that where he amalgamed several properties into one to rule them all
> (almost). It is indeed the non-convergent properties which motivates a
> stronger method.
>
>
>
>
>
> A number of outfits were measuring and spec’ing short term stability in
> the 1950’s and early 1960’s. Some were doing measures that are pretty close
> to ADEV. Others were doing straight standard deviation of frequency
> measurements. Since both got tossed up as “short term stability” confusion
> was the main result. NIST came in (as it rightly should) and gave us a
> measurement that does converge. They also spend the next two decades
>
> thumping on a bunch of hard heads to get everybody to use the measurement
> rather than something with more issues. Once that effort was underway, we
> got a whole raft of alternatives that each have benefits in certain areas.
>
> ADEV is far from the only measure that could be properly be used today to
> characterize short term stability.
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> > Standard statistics is relevant for many of the basic blocks, bit things
> work differently with the non-convergent noise.
>
> > Another aspect which was important then was the fact that it was a
> counter-based measure. Some of the assumptions is due to the fact that they
> used counters. I asked David some questions about why the integral looks
> the way it does, and well, it reflects the hardware at the time.
>
> >
>
> > What drives Allan vs. standard deviation is that extra derive function
> before squaring
>
> > The bias functions that Allan derives for M-sample is really the
> behavior of the s-deviation. See Allan variance wikipedia article as there
> is good references there for the bias function. That bias function is
> really illustrating the lack of convergence for M-sample standard
> deviation. The Allan is really a power-average over the 2-sample standard
> deviation.
>
> >
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Magnus
>
> >
>
> >> On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Line Voltage - USA

[Jeremy Nichols]

Did the utility replace the damaged equipment?


On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 9:33 PM Van Horn, David <
david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> I once had some odd equipment failures which we found out were caused by
> the line voltage being at 142V.
>
> This was in the mid 80's in Costa Mesa CA.  The tech they sent out told me
> they had us on the wrong transformer tap.
>
>
>
> Lowest I've seen was 70V in Hawaii, with everyone coming home about 5PM
> and switching on air conditioners.  We had to run our TV on a variac and
> adjust the voltage to keep the picture from shrinking.
>
>
>
> Since those days, that's the numbers I design equipment to, if it is to
> run from 115V supplies.  That rule has never let me down.
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] Line Voltage - USA

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thank you for the detailed analysis, Bill. The voltage measurements I made
in my garage laboratory were duplicated by the utility with their meter,
which was connected at the service entrance. We each showed voltage in
excess of 126 VAC. Date from the (U of Tennessee) Frequency Disturbance
Recorder also showed voltages in the 124-128 VAC range. The insignificant
voltage drop in the lab was due to the 200 Amp service (the house was
originally "all electric") and minimal load. In response to my concerns,
the utility dialed the voltage down to about 123 VAC where it remains today.

Jeremy


On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 8:49 PM Bill Byrom  wrote:

> There are a couple of recent threads concerning the power line mains
>
> voltage standards. After a bit of research and thinking, I have found
>
> that this is a complex topic. The simple answer is:
>
>
>
>
>
> * The standard in the US for the past 50 years has been 120/240 V +/- 5%
>
>   RMS at the service entrance to the building. This is a range of
>
>   114/228 V to 126/252 V.
>
> * The load voltage could be as low as 110/220 V and as high as 125/250 V
>
>   and be within specifications.
>
>
>
>
>
> There are two voltage measurement points to consider:
>
>
>
> (1) Service voltage: This is the RMS voltage measured at the service
>
> entrance to the building (at the metering point).
>
> (2) Utilization voltage: This is the RMS voltage measured at the load.
>
> It might be measured at an unused socket in a power strip feeding
>
> several pieces of electronic equipment, for example. There are of
>
> course many different utilization voltages present in a home or
>
> business, depending on where you make the measurement.
>
>
>
>
>
> Most US homes and small businesses are powered by what is commonly
>
> called a "split-phase" 240 V feed. The final distribution system
>
> transformer has a 240 V center-tapped secondary. The center tap is
>
> grounded, and three wires are fed to the building (actually it might be
>
> up to around 6 houses):
>
> (1) Leg L1 or phase A (red wire) -- This wire will measure 120 V to the
>
> neutral or 240 V to Leg L2.
>
> (2) Neutral (white wire) -- This wire is grounded at the distribution
>
> system and at the service entrance to the building.
>
> (3) Leg L2 phase B (black wire) -- This wire will measure 120 V to the
>
> neutral or 240 V to Leg L1.
>
>
>
>
>
> Large appliances and HVAC systems are usually connected across L1-L2
>
> (240 V), while most sockets are on circuits either connected across L1-
>
> neutral (120 V) or L2-neutral (120 V).
>
>
>
>
>
> The voltages I have described are the current standardized values for
>
> the service voltage which have been in general use for about 50 years
>
> (120/240 V +/- 5%). I believe that the original systems installed before
>
> 1940 were designed for a 110/220 V nominal service voltage, but after a
>
> report in 1949 the nominal service voltage was increased to 117/234 V,
>
> as specified in ANSI C84.1-1954. After research in actual buildings, in
>
> the 1960's the nominal service voltage was increased again, to 120/240 V
>
> in the ANSI C84.1-1970 standard. The purpose is to keep the utilization
>
> voltage at the load above 110/220 V.
>
>
>
>
>
> The voltage at the service entrance should in most cases be in Range A
>
> (120/240V +/-5%). On each 120V leg the service voltage should therefore
>
> be between 114 and 126 V. The utilization voltage at the load should be
>
> between 110 and 125 V due to losses in building wiring.
>
>
>
>
>
> See details of the current specifications at:
>
>
>
>
> http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/mybusiness/customerservice/energystatus/powerquality/voltage_tolerance.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
> These voltage specifications were designed for resistive loads and
>
> measurement of the true RMS voltage. In most electronic equipment built
>
> over the past 50 years, the power supply input circuitry is basically a
>
> rectifier connected to a smoothing capacitor. This leads to high input
>
> current surges during the peaks of the waveform, so that the peak
>
> voltage is reduced much more by the building wiring resistance than if
>
> the load was resistive for the same power consumption.
>
>
>
>
>
> So the waveform shape at different utilization locations in a building
>
> (with active equipment loads) may be different, so the voltage measured
>
> by different AC measuring instruments can differ. Many meters are full
>
> wave average measuring but calibrated so they only read RMS voltage
>
> correctly on pure sinewaves. Other meters are true RMS measuring and
>
> will read very close the correct RMS voltage even if the waveform is
>
> distorted.
>
> --
>
>
>
> Bill Byrom N5BB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017, at 12:16 PM, CIW308 VE6OH wrote:
>
>
>
> > Mark,
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > CSA have standards for over and under voltage, Typical no more that 3%
>
> > over and 5% under if memory serves me.
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > This 

Re: [time-nuts] Line Voltage [Was: Anyone (ideally in the UK) ...]

[Jeremy Nichols]

Another option is to belong to the FNET/GridEye group operated by the 
University of Tennessee (http://fnetpublic.utk.edu/index.html). They 
have placed frequency/voltage monitors all over the United States; they 
also list sites out side USA but I don't know if those are their 
devices. The monitors use GPS for time and location information and send 
the data over an ethernet link to your router and hence to U of Tenn via 
the Internet. If you look at the "Table Display" page in their web site, 
I am Unit #853 in the Western Interconnection.


Jeremy


On 12/31/2016 9:07 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

Just a comment for anyone who wants to log line voltage v. time.   If
you have an APC "Smart UPS" battery backup unit these will log voltage
and frequency to a file.  The unit connects to a computer via USB (and
an AC power cable).

You can collect data over a wide area using these power supplies,
logging data can be pushed over a network.

I would not buy an UPS just to log power statistics but many people
already have these

So you might wonder what is the line voltage in your lab. If you have
computer "server" of some kind you might also have an UPS and then you
might already have logs of voltage and frequency going back for years.




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[time-nuts] Line Voltage [Was: Anyone (ideally in the UK) ...]

[Jeremy Nichols]

[Sorry for the blank post earlier—TVB reminded me posts have to be plain 
text. My post was sent from my new-to-me iPad, probably in HTML. Have to 
learn how to turn that off!]


I too am concerned about high power-line voltage harming my collection 
of new and old electronics. A couple years ago I spent a lot of time 
documenting the line voltage at our home in northern California. The 
utility was consistently in excess of their 125 VAC specification. It 
took weeks of data before I got them to bring a recorder to my home and 
make their own measurement; once that was done they bumped the voltage 
down a little. The frequency also wanders but averages out to 60 Hertz, 
more or less (not Time-Nuts quality).


Jeremy


On 12/31/2016 11:57 AM, Tom Miller wrote:


- Original Message - From: "Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave 
Ltd)" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Anyone (ideally in the UK) got a spare rotary 
knob for the 5370B TI counter?




On 31 December 2016 at 13:03, EB4APL  wrote:


Hi,

I'm not totally sure about the limits, but I have read several times 
that
in the UK the nominal supply voltage is 230 V +10%/−6% to 
accommodate the
fact that most supplies are in fact still 240 V. The context was 
that a lot

of test equipment failed when operated at around 250 V and many input
capacitors (particularly the ones inside a know brand IEC socket - 
filter)

caught fire.

Wikipedia says that several areas in UK still have 250 V because this
value is withing the current limits.

I think that the governing document is British Standard BS 7697: 
Nominal

voltages for low voltage public electricity supply systems —
(Implementation of HD 472 S1).

Regards,

Ignacio, EB4APL




Hi,
I have just been on to the phone of a friend of mine who spent much 
of his

like working in the electricity generating industry. Working at both
Darlington (coal) and Bradwell (nuclear) power stations in the UK. Among
many other things he said

* He did not know the current specifications limits for certain, but he
said easy to check. (What you say - 230 -6%/+10% does seem to be 
quoted in

many places, but I guess I should check it out.)
* Supply voltage is likely to be highest about at 2-3 am in Summer
* Supply voltage is likely to be lowest on a cold Winter's afternoon.
* Voltages in use around the county include at the least 11, 22, 33, 66,
132, 275 and 400 kV.
* There's not much standardization of generator voltage - Bradwell 
nuclear

power station was 11.1 kV.
* There are taps on the 275 kV transformers to keep the 132 kV close 
to 132

kV
* There are 6 taps on the 11 kV transformers feeding my house to 
adjust the
voltage. Those can only be adjusted with the 11 kV off - they can't 
be done

with it online. Essentially this means to change the taps, an area would
need to be powered off.
* If voltage is out of spec, it should be possible to get something done
about it.
* The electricity board can install monitor equipment.
* Since I am right by the 11 kV transformer, and other places further 
away,

dropping the voltage at my place might put other places too low.

I think short-term I will put the auto transformer in line. I will 
monitor

the mains, and report it in the summer, when I'm told it is likely to go
higher.

It hit 250.04 V in the last hour or so, but I have not seen the magic
figure of 253 V.

I'll get my 3457A calibrated by Keysight, then look to measure this 
and if

appropriate make a formal request to have the voltage checked, and
hopefully the problems would occur during the time it was monitored.

Dave
___


There are some devices that benefit from the higher voltage. Motors 
usually run cooler and last longer due to the lower I2R losses.
Maybe just use a buck transformer in your lab for the (older) test 
equipment.






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[time-nuts] Line Voltage [Was: Anyone (ideally in the UK) ...]

[Jeremy Nichols]

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Re: [time-nuts] Subject: Re: I love the smell of tantalum in the morning

[Jeremy Nichols]

Amazon indicates the different lenses simply snap in and out. Any idea how
easy/practical this is? It it better to have two completely different
visors each holding different magnification lenses?

Jeremy


On Monday, November 7, 2016, Scott Hamilton  wrote:

> https://www.amazon.com/Donegan-OptiVISOR-Headband-
> Magnifier-Magnification/dp/B0068OSIIS/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&
> qid=1478548961=8-4=headset+magnifiers
>
> Finally, I can offer a contribution to this list. I have found the Donegan
> magnifiers in the above Amazon link with 3.5X lenses to be very comfortable
> and indespensible for SMD work. Different lenses can be obtained for other
> work but the 3.5X is a minimum for me.
>
> Scott Hamilton
> W3SEH
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Re: [time-nuts] Temp/Humidity control systems?

[Jeremy Nichols]

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[time-nuts] Manual wanted for

[Jeremy Nichols]

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 59309A Clock runs, sets via GPIB, but no GPIB output?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Interested if no one has already spoken got the HP59309.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On Tuesday, October 11, 2016, Bert Kehren via time-nuts 
wrote:

> Cleaning up I ran across today a HP59309, if some one is interested please
> contact me off list before I put it on ebay.
> Bert Kehren
>
>
> In a message dated 10/11/2016 1:54:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> francesco.messi...@gmail.com  writes:
>
> 1818-2295A dump has been uploaded to ko4bb site, probably there's  need
> to be moved in the right place before it's available.
>
> On Mon,  Oct 10, 2016 at 9:32 AM, Francesco  Messineo
> > wrote:
> > Hi  Dave,
> > right, once I find the dumps, I'll upload them.
> >  thanks
> > Frank IZ8DWF
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 9:24 AM,  Artek Manuals
> > wrote:
> >>  Frank
> >>
> >> One of the best places to store ROM dumps for  easy access by everyon is
> >> KO4BB.com
> >>
> >>  Dave
> >> NR1DX
> >> dit dit
> >>
> >> On  10/10/2016 3:20 AM, Francesco Messineo wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  I have a dump of the 1818-2295A somewhere, it should be archived  in
> >>> one of my backups. I also made a replacement with a board  having 2 x
> >>> 28C64 SO-28 eeproms and it worked in my 59309A as  far as I could test
> >>> it. However these eeproms present many  glitches on the outputs during
> >>> address toggling, so it's way  better to use a suitable CPLD after
> >>> recovering the equations  (I'm a bit stuck on this project due to lack
> >>> of  time...).
> >>> If someone needs the dump, just let me know and I'll  dig it out.
> >>> HTH
> >>> Frank  IZ8DWF
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>  Dave
> >> manu...@artekmanuals.com
> >>  www.ArtekManuals.com
> >>  ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Rare HP clock

[Jeremy Nichols]

Somebody must have really wanted this thing—sold for over $800!

Jeremy


On Monday, October 3, 2016,  wrote:

> I have worked on these and the electronics is almost always working, or
> easily repaired.
> The mechanical can cause problems depending on how much "time" it has on
> the clock mechanics.
> No XTAL in these as the drive is external.
> The case is hermetic and has dessicant inside.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Corby Dawson
>
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Re: [time-nuts] AC line distortion [Was: HP 105B Battery, the saga continues]

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thank you all for the inputs. In the present case, the location is my home
about an hour north of San Francisco, California. We are in a rural
location with other homes and some small businesses (legal or otherwise).
There could be many things hung on the 60 Hz power lines adding noise to
the "signal;" whether a "city" location would be better or worse is a
question I've never asked.

To understand the situation a little better, I put my HP-5489A Low Pass
Filter on the inverter's AC output, again through the filament transformer,
and watched the oscilloscope while I dialed down the frequency response. A
filter setting of 300 Hz was enough to visually clean up the noise while
not affecting the amplitude of the 'fundamental.' I was pleased that the
noise was manageable with such a simple tool.

Continuing, I tried a Corcom 10SP1 AC line filter from my junk box. This is
a fairly large filter, weighing about one kilo. I haven't been able to find
any specs on this thing, which is somewhere between 20 and 50 years old. It
has stamped on it a code "8003," which might mean the 3rd week/month of
1980, or it might not. Anyway, the line filter took care of the noise,
reducing *both* the AC power line and inverter output distortion to 0.35%,
better than I expected.

With the fundamental filtered out by the distortion analyzer, the remaining
noise consists of a rather dirty-looking 180 Hz sine wave, obviously a
harmonic of the 60 Hz fundamental, source unknown. Much of the local
electric energy comes from "The Geysers," an area of thermal springs and
steam at the north end of our county (Sonoma). The steam drives turbines
(of course), which spin generators. Since electricity is 'fungible' and (as
the old joke goes) "few people examine their electricity closely," the
noise could be coming from anywhere. A local source is most likely, as
others have already suggested.

Jeremy


On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 6:26 AM, Scott Stobbe <scott.j.sto...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Considering some signal generators will have 1% (-40dBc) distortion with a
> 5k - 10k price tag, your 1% is not to bad.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As an experiment, I bought an AIMS sine-wave inverter for the 105B Quartz
> > Oscillator. The inverter has a built-in transfer switch that is supposed
> to
> > allow the load to operate from the AC line and automatically switch to
> > battery/inverter should the AC power line fail.
> >
> > In fact the thing seems to work—the output is a nice 118 VAC sine wave
> > measuring 60.189 ± 0.003 Hz and the transfer switch is fast enough that
> the
> > 105B doesn't seem to notice the change. The "AC Interruption" light
> doesn't
> > light and I don't see a flicker of the 5 MHz output on my scope.
> >
> > Just for the fun of it, I connected a filament transformer and ran the
> low
> > voltage into my distortion analyzer. The result was about 5% distortion
> for
> > the inverter and 1.5% for the AC line. This got me to wondering, we've
> > discussed the AC power line frequency at length but not other "qualities"
> > of that "signal.' I was surprised that the AC line had so much distortion
> > but it's a subject I've never considered. Has anyone in this group looked
> > at this? [Yes, this is perilously close to not being appropriate
> Time-Nuts
> > discussion matter—sorry!]
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> > On 9/18/2016 4:33 AM, Scott McGrath wrote:
> >
> >> That NiCad pack is part of the power supply and as Jeremy points out is
> >> part of the filter system.And so one needs to restore it as part of
> the
> >> instrument as even the 28V external power supply floats these cells and
> >> trips power interruption indicator if lost
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Power supply is not terribly hard to fix and the small signal
> transistors
> >> can be replaced with  2N ,3904 and 3906'es depending on rating.  You
> >> don't even need a extender a Huntron tracker or similar current limited
> >> lissajous bridge will identify failed or leaky caps and semiconductors
> >>
> >> Remember HP did nothing without a good engineering reason and that plate
> >> is there for RF shielding to prevent stray sources coupling with the
> outputs
> >>
> >> If a proper rebuild is too expensive I'd suggest selling it on the well
> >> known auction site rather than hacking it up as 105's have been selling
> in
> >> the hundreds regardless of condition
> >>
> >>
> >> 

[time-nuts] AC line distortion [Was: HP 105B Battery, the saga continues]

[Jeremy Nichols]

As an experiment, I bought an AIMS sine-wave inverter for the 105B 
Quartz Oscillator. The inverter has a built-in transfer switch that is 
supposed to allow the load to operate from the AC line and automatically 
switch to battery/inverter should the AC power line fail.


In fact the thing seems to work—the output is a nice 118 VAC sine wave 
measuring 60.189 ± 0.003 Hz and the transfer switch is fast enough that 
the 105B doesn't seem to notice the change. The "AC Interruption" light 
doesn't light and I don't see a flicker of the 5 MHz output on my scope.


Just for the fun of it, I connected a filament transformer and ran the 
low voltage into my distortion analyzer. The result was about 5% 
distortion for the inverter and 1.5% for the AC line. This got me to 
wondering, we've discussed the AC power line frequency at length but not 
other "qualities" of that "signal.' I was surprised that the AC line had 
so much distortion but it's a subject I've never considered. Has anyone 
in this group looked at this? [Yes, this is perilously close to not 
being appropriate Time-Nuts discussion matter—sorry!]


Jeremy





Regards,
Jeremy


On 9/18/2016 4:33 AM, Scott McGrath wrote:

That NiCad pack is part of the power supply and as Jeremy points out is part of 
the filter system.And so one needs to restore it as part of the instrument 
as even the 28V external power supply floats these cells and trips power 
interruption indicator if lost



Power supply is not terribly hard to fix and the small signal transistors can 
be replaced with  2N ,3904 and 3906'es depending on rating.  You don't even 
need a extender a Huntron tracker or similar current limited lissajous bridge 
will identify failed or leaky caps and semiconductors

Remember HP did nothing without a good engineering reason and that plate is 
there for RF shielding to prevent stray sources coupling with the outputs

If a proper rebuild is too expensive I'd suggest selling it on the well known 
auction site rather than hacking it up as 105's have been selling in the 
hundreds regardless of condition



On Sep 17, 2016, at 10:16 PM, Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com> wrote:

How did you come up with the 33,000 uF number, Perry, and is it one big 
capacitor or lots of little ones tied together? The big cap will also filter 
out some of the remaining ripple in the power supply that may have been managed 
by the ni-cad battery.

Jeremy



On 9/17/2016 3:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts wrote:

  Where the nicad pack was located one can put in 33,000 uF of Nichicon 105C caps for 
$20 for a buffer hold over. 

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Re: [time-nuts] Rare HP clock

[Jeremy Nichols]

According to my -hp- catalogs it was available only in rack-mount form, not
in a cabinet. That suggests it was being marketed to a specific small group
so it may indeed have been manufactured in small quantities.

Jeremy


On Monday, October 3, 2016, Magnus Danielson <mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org>
wrote:

> Since you force-feed it 100 KC at the back, no crystal would be needed.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On 10/03/2016 04:57 PM, paul swed wrote:
>
>> Also notice the missing something on the far right that may have been some
>> xtal or something.
>> I went to look for a manual to see what it was. No luck though the manual
>> may be out there.
>> I would say its rare, but the price is going to most likely go up because
>> it is a bid.
>> Great winter project but not worth a lot of $ to me at least. Good luck to
>> whoever gets it.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>>
>>> Rare is indeed a relative term. I would certainly call it rare, but
>>> others
>>> might not.
>>> You likely would be the only person on your block who has one :)
>>>
>>> In the picture of the innards you can see a number of fine old wet slug
>>> tantalum
>>> capacitors. One even appears to have goo leaking out of it. I’d plan on
>>> having a
>>> lot of fun tracking down this or that part to get it working reliably.
>>>
>>> On Oct 3, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I saw that. Is it really rare or just hype by the luster?
>>>>
>>>> Jeremy
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, October 3, 2016, Bert Kehren via time-nuts <
>>>>
>>> time-nuts@febo.com>
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There  is a rare HP clock on ebay for the collectors among us. I am to
>>>>> old.
>>>>>
>>>>> RARE  HP H20 115BR FREQUENCY DIVIDER & DIGITAL CLOCK STANDARD VINTAGE
>>>>>
>>>> TEST
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Bert  Kehren
>>>>> ___
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
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>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Rare HP clock

[Jeremy Nichols]

I saw that. Is it really rare or just hype by the luster?

Jeremy

On Monday, October 3, 2016, Bert Kehren via time-nuts 
wrote:

> There  is a rare HP clock on ebay for the collectors among us. I am to
> old.
>
> RARE  HP H20 115BR FREQUENCY DIVIDER & DIGITAL CLOCK STANDARD VINTAGE  TEST
>
> Bert  Kehren
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B Battery the saga continues

[Jeremy Nichols]

How did you come up with the 33,000 uF number, Perry, and is it one big 
capacitor or lots of little ones tied together? The big cap will also 
filter out some of the remaining ripple in the power supply that may 
have been managed by the ni-cad battery.


Jeremy


On 9/17/2016 3:50 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts wrote:


  Where the nicad pack was located one can put in 33,000 uF of Nichicon 105C caps for 
$20 for a buffer hold over. 


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[time-nuts] HP-105B Manual

[Jeremy Nichols]

[I keep forgetting to send these messages in plain text only. Sorry!]

Somewhere in one of these 105B discussions were some comments on the 
manual and its enormous set of change sheets. So I asked my wife, the 
former Laura Cline of HP Santa Clara marketing (post-sales support), 
"Why didn't you revise that manual?" She replied that she had offered to 
do so several times but management always refused. Apparently they kept 
thinking (hoping?) sales would drop to the point where they could 
discontinue the product, so why bother? I think when we retired in 1997 
they were still selling it!


Jeremy

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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

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[time-nuts] HP-105B Manual

[Jeremy Nichols]

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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thanks, everyone for the ideas and discussion. One sine wave inverter sold
by theinverterstore.com is a "
*AIMS 1200 Watt Inverter with Transfer SwitchPart # PWRIX120012S." *

It sounds more than adequate for my needs. I'm sure there are others and
I'll continue to shop.

Jeremy

On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Robert LaJeunesse 
wrote:

> Check with the used equipment / property disposition department of the
> nearest big research university. The one near me often has big UPSs at
> relatively little prices.
>
> Bob LaJeunesse
>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 7:12 PM
> > From: "Andy ZL3AG" >
> > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts@febo.com >
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?
> >
> >
> > If you know where to get them from, you can get used 19" rack mount
> UPS's for scrap value. They might have fried batteries, but that's easily
> solved.
> >
> >
> > On 16/09/2016, at 11:06 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > They are very common when you look at server UPS or larger units.
> There are literally hundreds of models to pick between. Prices are from
> roughly $400 up to a few hundred thousand dollars per unit.
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Since I have a 12V 100 A-H gelled electrolyte battery as a
short-term backup (for those outages not worth firing up the generator),
I'd like to find a UPS that uses an external battery. So far I don't see
such a thing--do they exist?

Jeremy

On Thursday, September 15, 2016, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> It’s been quite a while since I bought anything other than a pure sine
> UPS. They really aren’t as expensive
> as they once were. You may find them a bit cheaper from outfits like
> CyberPower than from APC. Sometimes
> it s a bit tough to work out exactly what is or is not a pure sine wave
> unit. If you want a full “always on” pure
> sine device, they are still a bit expensive.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Sep 15, 2016, at 2:13 PM, Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of
> the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave (i.e.,
> expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave (aka
> modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. Anyone
> have experience?
> >
> > A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like
> another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have such
> a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> > On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> A bigger question becomes:
> >>
> >> Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?
> >>
> >> These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone
> area. Powering
> >> the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff
> is one obvious
> >> answer.
> >>
> >> The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is
> external to all
> >> the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack.
> That way you have
> >> a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch
> scattered about. Things like
> >> lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option
> in an independent
> >> battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest
> in something with real
> >> smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the
> conversion to instrument
> >> voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12,
> 24, or 48V and run with it.
> >>
> >> My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become
> “don’t do it”. It makes
> >> them a *lot* lighter weight !!!
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Your point is well made. My question is: what happens to the quality of 
the output sine wave if I use anything other than a true sine-wave 
(i.e., expensive) UPS? Most of them these days produce a semi-sine wave 
(aka modified square wave) that may or may not play well with the 105B. 
Anyone have experience?


A external battery and appropriate chargers and cabling does sound like 
another good alternative. Harder to move around but I don't (yet) have 
such a need, only that the 105B stay "on" regardless of power failures.


Jeremy


On 9/15/2016 10:15 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

A bigger question becomes:

Do batteries inside equipment make much sense anymore?

These days, a UPS is often a standard part of a rack in an outage prone area. 
Powering
the “whatever” instrument off of the same UPS as the rest of the stuff is one 
obvious
answer.

The other answer is an even older approach. Use a battery bank that is external 
to all
the gear in the rack and tend it independently of each box in the rack. That 
way you have
a few very large cells to worry about rather than a whole bunch scattered 
about. Things like
lead acid that are impractical in a piece of gear are more of an option in an 
independent
battery box. A single charger / line supply makes it easier to invest in 
something with real
smarts in it. The advent of dirt cheap isolated switchers makes the conversion 
to instrument
voltages a lot easier than it once was. Pick a common voltage like 12, 24, or 
48V and run with it.

My answer to the frequency standard battery pack question has become “don’t do 
it”. It makes
them a *lot* lighter weight !!!

Bob




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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Brooke, I priced Ni-Cds and was not happy with the numbers: a set of 20 
D-size cells will cost me ~US$100 by the time I get them delivered. That 
plus the 8-pound weight penalty makes replacement Ni-Cd cells 
unattractive. (105A = 16 pounds, 105B = 24 pounds including the battery 
box and charging circuitry) There is no question that Ni-Cds are the 
answer for anyone attempting to restore a 105B for competition in the 
neighborhood Concours d'Elegance.


I do appreciate your work on the relative merits of the various Lithium 
types. I was afraid the existing charge circuitry in the 105B would not 
mate well with Lithium-anything batteries. Having twice set the house 
afire through assorted misadventures (thank goodness for smoke alarms 
and fire extinguishers),  I don't want to try for "Number 3".


Jeremy


On 9/15/2016 9:59 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Jeremy:

I'm currently having fun playing with various rechargeable battery 
related stuff  which includes Li-Ion cells.

http://www.prc68.com/I/BatTst.shtml#Resistor
The cells come in three configurations:
1. the raw flat top cell with optional tabs to allow easy soldering 
into a pack,
2. cell plus positive button cap which includes a Positive Temperature 
Coefficient (PTC) fuse and an over pressure vent,
3. fully protected, like 2, plus circuit that turns off the battery if 
charging and over voltage or loaded and under voltage. On these you 
can feel a wire/ribbon running from positive to negative under the 
shrink wrap and they are slightly longer.

These configurations are independent of the flavor of Li chemistry.

To go with any of the above you need a charger specific to the 
particular Li chemistry (the charging voltage is not the same) and if 
a pack you also need a either cells like 3 above or a protection 
circuit for the pack.  For optimum performance in addition a tap 
between each virtual cell (made of of parallel cells) so that the 
charge can be balanced and a charger that can do that.  This is not 
easy, witness the current recall of the Galaxy Note 7s phones.


I would just use modern Ni-Cad cells mainly because of the ease of 
charging and maintaining them and use the existing charging circuitry.
Li chemistry has advantages for portable equipment, but not so much 
for rack mounted equipment.




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Re: [time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thanks, Brooke, I'll price new Ni-Cads. I wasn't thinking of lead-acid (gel
cells) but rather lithium rechargeable, providing I can find a type that
won't catch fire and will work with the 105B'scircuits.

Jeremy


On Wednesday, September 14, 2016, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> Hi Alex:
>
> Yes, I'm recommending Ni-Cad but NOT any acid type.
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> The lesser of evils is still evil.
>
>  Original Message 
>
>> Hi Brooke,
>>
>> sorry I have to disappoint you; Ni-Cd batteries do not use any acid, they
>> have K-OH  kalium hidrioxid  [potassium hydroxide  for anglophone ] as
>> electrolyte and they are normally very air-tide, and widely used in radios.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> KJ6UHN
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> On 9/14/2016 4:45 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jeremy:
>>>
>>> It's a very bad idea to put any battery with acid in an enclosure that
>>> has electronics since if it vents the acid will etch the PCBs.
>>> Guess how I learned this.  I got a great price on a Gibbs Frequency
>>> Standard because the oven no longer worked.
>>> http://prc68.com/I/office_equip.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Modern Ni-Cad batteries have much more capacity than older ones and no
>>> longer have a memory effect.  They are also very easy to charge, so why not
>>> just replace the old cells?
>>>
>>>
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[time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

I recently acquired a nice HP-105B, serial prefix 1240A, and like Perry 
Sandeen (posted here 10 May 2016) was pleasantly surprised to find a 
10811-type oscillator inside in place of the old blue oven. Well, the 
oscillator isn't actually labelled "10811" but has a label "Serial No. 
3010A62646 / Hewlett Packard / Made in U.S.A. / R11 147K." So, this is 
essentially the same oscillator as Perry found in his 105B.


The oscillator works well although the meter reading for the 5 MHz 
output is low, about 30 instead of the expected 80 (per the 105B manual 
for the 1240A series). The measured output is also low, about 1 Volt 
where 1.5 Volt is the expected minimum. Might this be due to the change 
from the old 105 crystal oven to the 10811?


What is the received wisdom on replacement of the previously-removed 
factory Ni-Cad pack? There are many small 12 Volt batteries available, 
two of which would easily fit into the space available and some of which 
might not even catch fire! Other options are an external battery+charger 
or even a UPS on the AC line. Opinions?


Jeremy / N6WFO


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[time-nuts] HP-105B Battery Replacement?

[Jeremy Nichols]

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Re: [time-nuts] The home time-lab

[Jeremy Nichols]

I recommend rigging up something to operate from storage batteries for the
rest, thus eliminating the power line temporarily.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On Thursday, July 7, 2016, Bob Stewart  wrote:

> I hope this isn't too far off topic, as this is having a big impact on my
> testing.
>
> I decided to run an A/B test on one of my GPSDOs: comparing the phase of
> the two 10MHz output channels.  In the middle of the night, there was a
> long series of 35ns pops in the phase data.  Strangely enough, there was
> nothing in the data collected directly from the unit involved.  The
> preceding two days we had had a number of switching transients where the
> lights blinked but nothing shut down.  So, putting one and one together, I
> suspect that a fair percentage of the strange results I've been getting has
> been power-grid related.
> So, what to do?  I've been looking at UPS devices, and I don't even
> understand enough to waste my money on a bad one.  The two big questions
> seem to be "on-line" and "sine wave".  Make that three: can I trust the
> mfgs claims?  Is there something affordable that could run a pair of 5370s
> and maybe another 50W worth of DUTs for up to an hour or two and not be
> prey to power-line transients?  Or would it be more cost effective to
> somehow monitor the power line for spikes or phase jumps and blow off tests
> or cut out the offending data?  From time to time we get a thread on
> power-line nuts.  Should I have been paying more attention?
>
> Bob - AE6RV
>
>  
> ---
> GFS GPSDO list:
> groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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Re: [time-nuts] RG6 or LMR400 for GPS Antenna (Symmetricom 58532A and T-bolt)

[Jeremy Nichols]

The silicone tape also has the advantage (if buying from Uline) that you 
can get two (2) rolls; for the 3M Temflex 2155 Rubber Splicing Tape the 
minimum is 10 rolls.


Jeremy

On 4/21/2016 5:57 PM, William H. Fite wrote:

Mark is right on target re the connectors; get the best you can afford.
Amphenol or equivalent.

Self-fusing silicone tape is a lot faster and easier than the 3M black
tape. Just stretch and wrap, it conforms beautifully, is highly resistant
to UV, and won't stiffen and crack in the cold. Best of all, if you need to
remove it, you just split it with a knife and it comes off cleanly.

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-11849/High-Temperature-Tapes/Silicone-Self-Fusing-Tape-1-x-12-yds-Red?pricode=WY637=pla=S-11849=CjwKEAjw9OG4BRDJzY3jrMng4iQSJABddor1kp3L3ESovor8DEeu0fEjhLXVWv0maB4ehIVQ1EEASBoC6kTw_wcB=aw.ds



On Thursday, April 21, 2016, Mark Spencer  wrote:


That is more or less the same method I use for my amateur radio
activities.   Home Depot in Canada sells similar 3M products which is
helpful during quick weekend projects.

Professionally I've seen other methods used but on my own time I like the
"splicing tape" covered with super "33 tape" approach.

These days I mostly use "N" connectors which in my experience can be a bit
more forgiving of less than perfect weather proofing than certain other
types.   (Not all "N" type connectors are equal in my view.)

Your experience and results may differ from mine.

73
Mark S
VE7AFZ

Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 21, 2016, at 1:12 PM, DaveH > wrote:

DX Engineering (another great compuany to do business with) recomends

these

two products:

http://www.dxengineering.com/


3M Temflex 2155 Rubber Splicing Tape followed with a covering of
Scotch Super 33+ tape

The rubber conforms tightly with the connectors and waterproofs the
connection while the Super 33+ tape seals everything up and protects the
joint from UV degredation and mechanical abrasion.

There is very little adhesion between the Temflex and your hardware so

when

you want to rework the connection, it comes away very clean with no

residue.

Great system!

Dave



-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com ] On

Behalf

Of Ryan Stasel
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:08
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] RG6 or LMR400 for GPS Antenna
(Symmetricom 58532A and T-bolt)

All,

Really awesome answers, thanks!

For the sealing question, it was more of a "should I bother
with something like anti-seize" or the like on the actual
thread-thread N interface. The actual connector crimp, was
planning on just using a couple layers of the heat-shrink
with adhesive. That is all going to be internal to the mast
anyway, so direct weather contact should be minimal. It's
also on the side of my chimney, that gets very little to no
direct sun, so UV exposure should be minimal. But good note

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Re: [time-nuts] ADEV and fractional frequency

[Jeremy Nichols]

Correct, Attila. I've been trying to find two separate definitions when 
it seems they are the same thing. It also shows my age that I don't 
automatically check Wikipedia.


Jeremy

On 4/14/2016 3:18 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:

Hoi Jeremy,

On Wed, 13 Apr 2016 16:16:02 -0700
Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com> wrote:


It would appear that the Allen variance as defined at the bottom of page
4 in TVB's reference to the December 1970 HP Journal (thanks, Tom!) is
the same formula as that used for "fractional frequency deviation" in
other HP publications on the 5360A. This is helpful to me because I've
been tearing my hair out trying to find one reference that equates the two.

Do you mean by "the two" ADEV and fractional frequency? If so,
could you enlighten me where the confusion comes from? Because
the formula you refere to in the HP journal is just a different
way of writing the standard two sample ADEV which you can also
find on wikipedia.

Attila Kinali



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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5360A History?

[Jeremy Nichols]

The second thing I learned to program was a 9100 calculator, very 
similar to the 5360's programming style and "language," RPN and all.


Jeremy


On 4/13/2016 6:27 PM, paul swed wrote:

Amazing more then 2 people know what a 5360 is. More that they still work.
I would say the most interesting thing that I did was measure the color
subcarrier phase shift on Geo-synchrounous satellites. This represented the
drift of the satellite. I knew the references only to well and they were
Cesium at the origination site on the CBS network. I captured and processed
the readings over many weeks and slowly but surely the expected orbital
behaviors showed up.
This was Xerox-820 and apple II time frame.
I could easily see how you might expand what the system could do. Just no
real need.
So the 5360 is about as close as I will ever get to the HP calculators.
Though I have looked for many years.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Pete Lancashire 
wrote:


Tom

Add to your list


http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/publications/measure/pdf/1969_06.pdf



On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:57 PM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:


John,

I agree with Paul, an absolutely amazing instrument. The early models

have

nixie display, later ones plasma. 11 digits! In 1969! It was the first hp
instrument that was capable enough to compute stability statistics. In
real-time! Like Paul I have a couple, along with various the accessories.
Built like a tank, even the keyboard.

You'll find mention of the counter in old technical articles, sometimes
including the programs people would write for automated statistics. I've
always thought the 5360 was uniquely at the cross-roads between hp as an
instrument company and hp as a computer company (not to mention hp as a
printer ink company). You can see the DNA of each of these in the 5360 &
its accessories.

You were probably reading this major 5360A Computing Counter issue:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1969-05.pdf

Here's all about the 5375A keyboard:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1970-03.pdf

And this is where the diode and punch card interface is shown, as well as
ADEV from 1 us to 1 s (see page 4, fig 4).

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1970-12.pdf

More on ADEV on the 5360:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1971-11.pdf

Select high-res page scans from my own hardcopy HPJ collection are here:

http://www.leapsecond.com/hpj/

For example, the 79-step ADEV program is here:

http://www.leapsecond.com/hpj/v22n4/v22n4p10.jpg

Finally, do not miss HP AN116 "Precision Frequency Measurements":

http://www.hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_116.pdf

/tvb

- Original Message -
From: "John Ackermann N8UR" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:38 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5360A History?



I was browsing through the HP Journal archives and came across the May,
1969 issue, dedicated to the new 5360A Computing Counter -- "An
Electronic Counter for the 1970s!"

I don't recall hearing much about these in time-nuts lore.  I can guess
from the Journal articles that it was a beast to keep running and was
very expensive (500 ICs and a 10A 5V power supply).

Is anyone here familiar with the story of this product?

John

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5360A History?

[Jeremy Nichols]

It would appear that the Allen variance as defined at the bottom of page 
4 in TVB's reference to the December 1970 HP Journal (thanks, Tom!) is 
the same formula as that used for "fractional frequency deviation" in 
other HP publications on the 5360A. This is helpful to me because I've 
been tearing my hair out trying to find one reference that equates the two.


Jeremy


On 4/13/2016 12:57 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:


. . . . .  ADEV from 1 us to 1 s (see page 4, fig 4).

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1970-12.pdf



/tvb




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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5360A History?

[Jeremy Nichols]

The insider name for the 5360A was "computing pig" because of its size 
(weight) and complexity. It combined most of the counting ability of a 
5345 with much of the computing ability of the 9100 programmable 
calculator. Jamming so much into a standard (for the era) -hp- cabinet 
was quite a challenge. One of my 5360s uses Nixie tubes while the newer 
one is plasma.


Since there is no way to store a program entered with the keyboard, you 
have to leave the machine 'on' or re-key your program. Given the limited 
32-step memory, this is not a terrible limitation. The 5376 Systems 
Programmer could be expanded to 200 (!) steps but I've not had the 
privilege of using one with my 5360.


If any one has a copy of Application Sheet No. 27, "Fractional Frequency 
Deviation Measurements on Ultra-Stable Sources" or Application Note AN 
120-2, "Measuring Phase with the 5360A," I'd like to buy copies.


Jeremy

On 4/13/2016 1:44 PM, John Ackermann N8UR wrote:

Thanks, Tom (and others)!  That's fascinating.

I was interested in the mention of diode programming systems. It's a 
little off topic, but I encountered a few of those in the 1970s 
amateur radio world.  A couple of the early synthesized (as opposed to 
fixed-frequency-crystal) controlled ham radios had memory channels 
that were "programmed" in BCD digits by installing or removing 1N914 
diodes, often in a row of DIP sockets.


Another early design was in the first synthesized "police radio" 
scanner by Regency.  It used aluminum combs that looked like, well, 
combs.  You broke off the tines as instructed for a particular 
frequency and then inserted the comb into a socket. The presence or 
absence of the tine signified 1 or 0.



On 4/13/2016 3:57 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

John,

I agree with Paul, an absolutely amazing instrument. The early models 
have nixie display, later ones plasma. 11 digits! In 1969! It was the 
first hp instrument that was capable enough to compute stability 
statistics. In real-time! Like Paul I have a couple, along with 
various the accessories. Built like a tank, even the keyboard.


You'll find mention of the counter in old technical articles, 
sometimes including the programs people would write for automated 
statistics. I've always thought the 5360 was uniquely at the 
cross-roads between hp as an instrument company and hp as a computer 
company (not to mention hp as a printer ink company). You can see the 
DNA of each of these in the 5360 & its accessories.


You were probably reading this major 5360A Computing Counter issue:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1969-05.pdf

Here's all about the 5375A keyboard:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1970-03.pdf

And this is where the diode and punch card interface is shown, as 
well as ADEV from 1 us to 1 s (see page 4, fig 4).


http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1970-12.pdf

More on ADEV on the 5360:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1971-11.pdf

Select high-res page scans from my own hardcopy HPJ collection are here:

http://www.leapsecond.com/hpj/

For example, the 79-step ADEV program is here:

http://www.leapsecond.com/hpj/v22n4/v22n4p10.jpg

Finally, do not miss HP AN116 "Precision Frequency Measurements":

http://www.hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_116.pdf

/tvb

- Original Message -
From: "John Ackermann N8UR" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:38 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5360A History?



I was browsing through the HP Journal archives and came across the May,
1969 issue, dedicated to the new 5360A Computing Counter -- "An
Electronic Counter for the 1970s!"

I don't recall hearing much about these in time-nuts lore.  I can guess
from the Journal articles that it was a beast to keep running and was
very expensive (500 ICs and a 10A 5V power supply).

Is anyone here familiar with the story of this product?

John


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Re: [time-nuts] Building a mains frequency monitor

[Jeremy Nichols]

A good source for what is actually going on with power line frequency is 
the web site of the University of Tennessee, which in partnership with 
Oak Ridge National Labs has a mains frequency monitoring program at 
http://fnetpublic.utk.edu/. The "Table Display" page shows frequency 
data for the United States and some other parts of the world. My station 
is #853 in the "Western Interconnection."


The frequency bounces around seemingly at random but within ±0.1 Hz 
maximum and usually half of that. The random pattern of the frequency 
shifts certainly could be used to identify a point in time at which a 
recording was made. By the looks of the data, I doubt that small 
measurement errors such as those being discussed would affect results.


Jeremy


On 4/6/2016 6:21 PM, Jay Grizzard wrote:

Since it seems to be a week for new projects on time-nuts... ;)

So I've been wanting to set up a power line frequency monitor for a while,
and now(ish) seemed to be a good time for me.

So initially, I was planning on doing a simple design that was posted here
a couple of years back, which basically works out to:

   mains -> simple 9v ac/ac power brick -> dropping resistor -> picPET

I have a good 10MHz reference to feed the picPET, so this seems like it
would make a good first shot. But, of course, I eventually want to do
better than just a first shot. So, I have questions!

Q1: Assuming the schmitt trigger in the picPET triggers at a consistent
point in the waveform, the frequency at any given cycle is easy to
calculate: 1.0 / (timestamp2 - timestamp1)...but, is there a better
way? That method just feels... naive, for some reason.

Q2: What are the sources of noise in this design? Assuming the picPET is as
accurate as my 10MHz reference is, I can think of a few potential places
that phase noise could creep into the measurements:
   - Whatever is in the power brick beyond the transformer (I don't think a 
step down transformer alone would add phase noise, right?)
   - The dropping resistor will slowly change the amplitude of the waveform 
(and thus the point in the cycle that the schmitt trigger fires) due to thermal 
and aging effects, if we're measuring anything that's not the exact zero 
crossing
   - The point at which the schmitt trigger in the picPET fires will change 
over time for the same reasons. Also potentially due to picPET input voltage, 
depending on how the comparitor is built
   - Am I missing any?

Q3: The open-ended question: How do I improve on this? I suspect the main place for 
improvement will be in the trigger, but I'm not sure where to go with that.  Most designs 
I've seen involve a schmitt trigger, generally with reference voltages set by things like 
voltage dividers. This seems dubious at best, to me, since that means the reference 
voltage will be affected by the same effects I'm calling out above. Is there a *specific* 
design (rather than "make a zero crossing detector!" or something similarly 
vague) that someone can point me to, that would minimize this kind of trigger noise?

Q3.1: Is there a better way to get mains voltage down to something I can work 
more directly with? I saw at least one design that just used a couple of 
megaohm resistors inline -- does that introduce appreciably less phase noise 
than random AC/AC power brick?

I apologize if any of this is overly basic. I've actually read everything I 
could find both in the time-nuts archives and the internet at large about this 
kind of project, but I've still found myself left with the questions above.

I appreciate any comments / feedback / pointers!

-j
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Re: [time-nuts] Building a mains frequency monitor

[Jeremy Nichols]

My measurements show the fractional frequency deviation of the power line
at my home is ~25 e-6 with a 1-second measurement and 100 loops through the
calculation. I agree with Bill that a precision frequency source is not
necessary.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On Wednesday, April 6, 2016, Bill Hawkins  wrote:

> Phase noise? The line frequency shifts phase every time a major
> electrical load is added or dropped from the power line.
>
> Seems to me this effect swamps every error in the measurement system.
>
> You are looking for parts per thousand at most. Precision GPSDO 10 MHz
> is overkill.
>
> In my humble opinion, that is.
>
> Bill Hawkins
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com ] On
> Behalf Of Jay
> Grizzard
> Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 8:22 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com 
> Subject: [time-nuts] Building a mains frequency monitor
>
> Since it seems to be a week for new projects on time-nuts... ;)
>
> So I've been wanting to set up a power line frequency monitor for a
> while, and now(ish) seemed to be a good time for me.
>
>  %< ---
>
> I appreciate any comments / feedback / pointers!
>
> -j
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Re: [time-nuts] Building a mains frequency monitor

[Jeremy Nichols]

I've monitored line frequency with one of my old HP frequency counters. A
filament transformer with a potentiometer across the secondary allows me to
dial a safe voltage for the counter, about 1 V RMS.

My ancient counters are limited in their data collection abilities; I'm
sure your picPET device (whatever that is!) will do a better job.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On Wednesday, April 6, 2016, Jay Grizzard 
wrote:

> Since it seems to be a week for new projects on time-nuts... ;)
>
> So I've been wanting to set up a power line frequency monitor for a while,
> and now(ish) seemed to be a good time for me.
>
> So initially, I was planning on doing a simple design that was posted here
> a couple of years back, which basically works out to:
>
>   mains -> simple 9v ac/ac power brick -> dropping resistor -> picPET
>
> I have a good 10MHz reference to feed the picPET, so this seems like it
> would make a good first shot. But, of course, I eventually want to do
> better than just a first shot. So, I have questions!
>
> Q1: Assuming the schmitt trigger in the picPET triggers at a consistent
> point in the waveform, the frequency at any given cycle is easy to
> calculate: 1.0 / (timestamp2 - timestamp1)...but, is there a better
> way? That method just feels... naive, for some reason.
>
> Q2: What are the sources of noise in this design? Assuming the picPET is as
> accurate as my 10MHz reference is, I can think of a few potential places
> that phase noise could creep into the measurements:
>   - Whatever is in the power brick beyond the transformer (I don't think a
> step down transformer alone would add phase noise, right?)
>   - The dropping resistor will slowly change the amplitude of the waveform
> (and thus the point in the cycle that the schmitt trigger fires) due to
> thermal and aging effects, if we're measuring anything that's not the exact
> zero crossing
>   - The point at which the schmitt trigger in the picPET fires will change
> over time for the same reasons. Also potentially due to picPET input
> voltage, depending on how the comparitor is built
>   - Am I missing any?
>
> Q3: The open-ended question: How do I improve on this? I suspect the main
> place for improvement will be in the trigger, but I'm not sure where to go
> with that.  Most designs I've seen involve a schmitt trigger, generally
> with reference voltages set by things like voltage dividers. This seems
> dubious at best, to me, since that means the reference voltage will be
> affected by the same effects I'm calling out above. Is there a *specific*
> design (rather than "make a zero crossing detector!" or something similarly
> vague) that someone can point me to, that would minimize this kind of
> trigger noise?
>
> Q3.1: Is there a better way to get mains voltage down to something I can
> work more directly with? I saw at least one design that just used a couple
> of megaohm resistors inline -- does that introduce appreciably less phase
> noise than random AC/AC power brick?
>
> I apologize if any of this is overly basic. I've actually read everything
> I could find both in the time-nuts archives and the internet at large about
> this kind of project, but I've still found myself left with the questions
> above.
>
> I appreciate any comments / feedback / pointers!
>
> -j
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Re: [time-nuts] Huge databook collection uploaded

[Jeremy Nichols]

Thank you!

Jeremy Nichols, N6WFO
Santa Rosa, California


On 3/25/2016 7:59 AM, walter shawlee 2 wrote:
All the digitized semiconductor data books we collected over the years 
at Sphere, along with tubes, app notes, time codes, and tek/hp 
cross-refs and concepts are now up in the first location, thanks to 
John Allen (K1AE).  he has parked them here on his google drive, 
nicely laid out by the book categories:


https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxMD1ibIHfSxNkVlTE1rLWhQZ1k=sharing 



Click on the image, then use the top located download arrow to grab 
the file. Paul Swed is also transferring the collection to Didier's 
site for easy retrieval, but this will take a while to transfer and 
index. Many thanks to all the good net citizens who scanned and 
preserved these, and have kept them alive. Hopefully these common 
repositories will make it easy to find and retrieve them for years to 
come. For those coming up for stuff day, I have them on DVD, you can 
save your bandwidth.


*If anybody has the old classic semiconductor reference guides 
motorola put out, that list every single 1N, 2N and 3N registered 
number, please let me know! That's the one thing I haven't located, 
other than my paper copies.*


Hope these prove useful, they really cover a lot of ground.
all the best,
walter



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Re: [time-nuts] How to run Lady Heather under Windows10

[Jeremy Nichols]

I have had no problems running LH under WIn10 perhaps because my PC has 
a "traditional" serial port. I've had problems with serial-to-USB 
adapters; sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, depending on the 
application and the drivers. For example, my wife has an embroidery 
sewing machine with design software. Her new PC lacks a traditional 
serial port so I tried an adapter but failed to get it working. I 
eventually bought an old WinXP laptop and dedicated it to the sewing 
machine.


Jeremy

On 3/17/2016 2:34 AM, Neville Michie wrote:

Hi,
a new laptop and a new problem,
I can not find COM1, and the slash command
on Lady Heather provokes a response that spaces and slash
marks are illegal in file names.
Any ideas?

thanks,

Neville Michie
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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Jeremy Nichols]

My T-bolt is running on a Power-one International Series HCAS-60W-A supply,
hefty enough to run at least 4 more. Ripple and noise measure less than 100
micro-volts peak-to-peak. The T-bolt seems quite happy.

Jeremy


On Sunday, February 28, 2016, Dave M  wrote:

> Pete Lancashire wrote:
>
>> ... I was using an HP lab supply>>>
>>
>> Model ? Age ?
>>
>> My bench has some pretty old HP's even Harrison Lab branded supplies.
>> I
>> have had to re-cap a few of them.
>> In a way it is almost a curse how reliable their supplies were. You
>> always got the V and I you wanted so one
>> never thought about the filtering getting worse over the years.
>>
>> Also HP had two variations of their bench supplies. The basic ones
>> and the low noise versions. When I need
>> to make measurement like this, I make sure I'm using one of the low
>> noise/ripple models.
>>
>>
> Adding my few cents' worth to the power supply ripple/noise thoughts, I've
> found that the old linear supplies by Power Designs Inc were among the
> best, at considerably lower cost than the HP/Harrison Labs units.
> Ripple/Noise in the low millivolts and high microvolts, 0.01 - 0.005%
> regulation and temperature stability in the neighborhood of 0.01%/degC were
> common.
> I have a couple on my bench, and they just keep on working.  They still
> pop up at auction frequently.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave M
>
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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Jeremy Nichols]

Up to roughly the mid-1970s, even ordinary mortals, HP employees, could 
fly first class if you were traveling on company business for HP and the 
flight was longer than 3 hours. Even I, an lowly process engineer, 
included in a shopping trip "back east" to Boston and Philly, got to fly 
first class. HP sent five employees on this shopping trip—God only knows 
what it cost. That was then, when HP had more cash than it knew what to 
do with.


J.

On 2/14/2016 4:48 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
I was never with HP but I bought (using Hughes Aircraft and US 
government money) megabucks worth of HP Instruments.  The whole 
facility bought millions more.  The local Tucson HP sales office had a 
salesman assigned just to Hughes. They showered us with catalogs, app 
notes, training programs, seminars and I even traveled a few times to 
attend programs elsewhere.  We paid for our own airfare and hotel, but 
breakfasts, lunches, dinners, girly shows, etc were on HP.  In 
discussing travel expense reporting with the rep, unlike Hughes where 
every penny had to be accounted for, he said his reporting consisted 
of counting the money in his wallet when he left and counting it again 
when he got back.  The difference was his expense.


Wes  N7WS


On 2/14/2016 4:05 PM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
I was with HP 1972-79, when it was still a great company. The 
vertical integration was such that there was a joke about HP plant 
site landscaping, which always seemed to feature ferns. The reply was 
, "We're making our own coal!" We not only had packaging engineers 
but made our own cabinets. We made our own integrated circuits; I 
made the photomasks for those ICs in the Santa Clara Division (02, 
the old Frequency Division) in building 51-Lower, next to the 
line where the counters were wired. Good times, free coffee.


Jeremy
N6WFO



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Re: [time-nuts] HP Reliability

[Jeremy Nichols]

I was with HP 1972-79, when it was still a great company. The vertical 
integration was such that there was a joke about HP plant site 
landscaping, which always seemed to feature ferns. The reply was , 
"We're making our own coal!" We not only had packaging engineers but 
made our own cabinets. We made our own integrated circuits; I made the 
photomasks for those ICs in the Santa Clara Division (02, the old 
Frequency Division) in building 51-Lower, next to the line where 
the counters were wired. Good times, free coffee.


Jeremy
N6WFO



On 2/14/2016 10:10 AM, Scott McGrath wrote:

HP's greatest advantage of old was being the largest and best vertically 
integrated technology company as innovations in one line of business were often 
applicable to others.This was right down to things as prosaic as packaging 
and or hybrid  circuit design

Now Keysight is just another mid sized technology company who outsources much 
of their production and wonders why Asian vendors can copy their stuff so 
rapidly and undersell them.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri


On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:31 AM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:

HP built their reputation for quality and reliability with test equipment.
Computers were always considered a bit weird (in a nice way, in the case of
handheld calculators) but printers have followed the consumer race to the
bottom.

It's sad to hear that the instrument division are no longer focused on
keeping that reputation - perhaps that's why the medical division moved to
separate the names.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:


   On 14 Feb 2016 09:04, "Perry Sandeen via time-nuts" 

Re: [time-nuts] Glass Envelope Quartz Crystals

[Jeremy Nichols]

The OP's picture looks very much like the crystals that HP's "Frequency 
and Time" division in Santa Clara (02 was their division number) used to 
manufacture back in the 1970s. My picture shows a 1 MHz crystal that HP 
used in the predecessor to the HP-105A (perhaps the 101A).


Jeremy

http://s323.photobucket.com/user/Jeremy5848/media/Miscellaneous/Crystal_1140587_zps0jxjpoal.jpg.html



On 2/2/2016 12:24 PM, Don Latham wrote:

You have it right, iovane. At the least, they should be protected from light,
thermal radiation, and emf.   Won'drous things will happen if the crystal and
its structure are subjected to radiation through the glass. I'd suggest a foam
wrap in a tin can as a minimum. Put the oscillator cat in there too.
Don

iovane--- via time-nuts

I think that these crystals were designed to be placed in an oven, which
worked
as a shield too. I have a similar crystal made by Racal in the 60's, and in my
case it is fitted with the classic octal tube-type plug. It was housed (still
is) in a heavy massive shimmering chrome-plated cylindrical brass enclosure, a
beauty to see, It was the timebase of a tube-type synthesizer with lots of
tubes. Themperature control was achieved by means of a mercury thermometer in
which mercury actuated a contact when reaching a wire crossing the capillary
tube.

Antonio I8IOV


Da: Bob Camp 
Data: 02/02/2016 13.15
A: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
Ogg: Re: [time-nuts] Glass Envelope Quartz Crystals

Hi

Since the 25 MHz crystal has already been soldered into a circuit, putting it

in a

socket is probably not a real good idea. It’s also a leaded part. Even with

fat pins

sockets can be an issue. With wire leads, you are asking for trouble.

Functionally, there is little there is little difference between a glass

package crystal

and a metal package. About the only real one is the obvious - one has a metal

shield

you can (but sometimes don’t)  ground.

Bob



On Feb 1, 2016, at 9:58 PM, Daniel Watson  wrote:

Hi,

I purchased a pair of interesting glass envelope crystals for a project.
Here are some pictures:

http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/glass-envelope-quartz-crystals.html

Does anyone have an idea about what mount/socket I should buy for these? I
read a previous thread on the list about Bliley crystals using a B7G mount,
but I'm not sure if that type might work here.

Also, when building up a circuit to make these oscillate, are there any
specific differences about crystals in this package that I should keep in
mind?


Thanks much,

Dan W.


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Re: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization

[Jeremy Nichols]

Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360 
Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.


Jeremy
N6WFO


On 1/30/2016 6:16 AM, jimlux wrote:

This month's historical picture from JPL
http://beacon.jpl.nasa.gov/historical-photo-of-the-month

This atomic clock was used at the Goldstone Time Standards Laboratory 
in 1970, to synchronize clocks at Deep Space Network stations around 
the world. This master clock was accurate to plus or minus two 
millionths of a second, when compared to clocks maintained by the 
National Bureau of Standards and the U.S. Naval Observatory. In the 
late 1960s, JPL had developed a moon bounce technique to transmit 
signals from one deep space antenna to another. Experiments included 
periodic measurement of timing signals that were reflected from the 
surface of the moon, to find out if the station clocks were within 
allowable limits for accuracy.


Time-nut will recognize, of course, that none of the things in that 
picture are actually an atomic clock, although they are thing that are 
useful if you have an atomic clock.



Note the sophisticated temperature monitoring system.

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Re: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization

[Jeremy Nichols]

If you look closely at the picture, you'll see that it's an "L," but 
there isn't quite enough resolution to say whether it's a 5245L or a 
5248L. Probably 5245L because most 5248s had the hi-accuracy (for the 
era!) standard and were sold as 5248M.


Jeremy


On 1/30/2016 11:47 AM, Norm n3ykf wrote:

HP 5245M to be exact. There's one in my rack. Different plugin, same time
base. Still works at 5 GHz.

On Saturday, January 30, 2016, Jeremy Nichols <jn6...@gmail.com> wrote:


Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360
Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On 1/30/2016 6:16 AM, jimlux wrote:


This month's historical picture from JPL
http://beacon.jpl.nasa.gov/historical-photo-of-the-month

This atomic clock was used at the Goldstone Time Standards Laboratory in
1970, to synchronize clocks at Deep Space Network stations around the
world. This master clock was accurate to plus or minus two millionths of a
second, when compared to clocks maintained by the National Bureau of
Standards and the U.S. Naval Observatory. In the late 1960s, JPL had
developed a moon bounce technique to transmit signals from one deep space
antenna to another. Experiments included periodic measurement of timing
signals that were reflected from the surface of the moon, to find out if
the station clocks were within allowable limits for accuracy.

Time-nut will recognize, of course, that none of the things in that
picture are actually an atomic clock, although they are thing that are
useful if you have an atomic clock.


Note the sophisticated temperature monitoring system.

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Re: [time-nuts] Newbie questions

[Jeremy Nichols]

That hits the nail on the head. Mathematicians (the OP mentioned he was
one) learned long ago that it's easier to add and subtract than to multiply
and divide.

Jeremy


On Wednesday, January 27, 2016, Jim Harman  wrote:

> Another benefit of using dB vs Watts or Volts is that systems often consist
> of a chain of elements with gains and losses. Working with gains and losses
> in dB lets you calculate the signal level at any point along the way and
> the system gain by adding and subtracting rather than multiplying and
> dividing.
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 3:02 AM, wb6bnq >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > The element that you are missing is the impedance.  When you look at the
> > common formula it refers to a ratio of power or voltage and the impedance
> > is left out with the understanding that the impedance is equal for each
> > power or voltage in the ratio.  The actual formula (for power) is DB =
> 10 X
> > log10 ( E1^2 / R ) / ( E2^2 / R ).  Hint   Power P = E^2 / R.
> >
> > In the RF world that impedance is 50 Ohms and ZERO DBm(illiwatts) is ONE
> > milliwatt into 50 Ohms which is 0.223606797749979 Vrms.
> >
> > In the audio world the reference impedance is 600 Ohms.  So ZERO DBu is
> > One milliwatt into 600 Ohms which is 0.7745966692414834 Vrms.  More
> > commonly referred to as 0.775 Vrms.
> >
> > As for your GPS questions, I will leave that up to others to answer.
> >
> > BillWB6BNQ
> >
> >
> > time...@metachaos.net  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >>
> >> I am a newbie to this list. I have downloaded the archives and read
> about
> >> 5,000 of the past messages. I plan on building my own GPSDO, probably
> >> using a
> >> LEA-6T (but LEA-7T or LEA-M8T would be good if I can find one
> >> affordably). I
> >> have a MTI 260 on order (although it could wind up being a 261 since
> they
> >> all
> >> appear to ship one or the other randomly).
> >>
> >> Currently, my resources include a DMM (well, a couple) and soldering /
> >> desoldering stations and quite a few tools. I also have an oscilloscope
> >> that I
> >> am currently repairing - a 400Mhz Tektronix 2465BCT analog scope. I am
> >> waiting
> >> on the final parts from Mouser. Once that is done I need to get it
> >> calibrated.
> >> All of that will probably take me another month. I also need to finish
> >> fixing
> >> my cassette deck - and then to finish writing a special recording
> program
> >> to
> >> use raw device drivers to get around the fact that Windows is not real
> >> time. I
> >> interrupted that project to work on the scope.
> >>
> >> In the meantime, I am reading the time-nuts messages (and lots of other
> >> things) to gather information and ideas about how I am going to do this
> >> and
> >> generally to learn more.
> >>
> >> So, I have some questions. Let me tell you a bit about me, so that you
> >> know
> >> the context and my limitations. I am a retired programmer. I wrote just
> >> about
> >> everything including device drivers, operating systems, utilities,
> >> various AI
> >> programs, telephone systems, compilers, encryption, web applications and
> >> much
> >> more. If I need to throw 50,000 LOC at a project, no problem. I have
> used
> >> many
> >> languages including quite a few different assembly languages (I have
> also
> >> written an assembler). I consider myself a mathematician / programmer,
> >> although I haven't really needed Calculus or Differential Equations for
> >> decades, so I am pretty rusty in that area. I do more work in formal
> logic
> >> than higher mathematics. But, I THINK like a mathematician. Formalism
> and
> >> abstraction come naturally to me.
> >>
> >> During my career I also helped to debug hardware during S-100 days. I
> have
> >> sporadically messed with electronics off and on, informally, with no
> >> education
> >> in the area. Now that I am retired (and have more time, but less money -
> >> it IS
> >> a zero sum game!), I am trying to learn more about electronics and start
> >> doing
> >> hardware projects. I have never been into model building or anything
> >> similar,
> >> so my construction skills are lacking. I understand a lot of things in
> >> theory,
> >> but practice still eludes me. For example, knowing a part exists or
> >> determining which of 10,000 apparently identical parts is the "right"
> >> choice.
> >> It can hours or even days to find the "right" connector. In many cases,
> >> the
> >> names or descriptions are completely meaningless. That all appears to be
> >> an
> >> experience related issue, so I will (hopefully) overcome that in time.
> >>
> >> I have no problem with soldering / desoldering, but I haven't designed
> or
> >> built my own PCB yet. I have designed / redesigned some minor circuits,
> >> especially on the power supply side. I can follow schematics reasonably
> >> well,
> >> but I am not comfortable with Eagle or other PCB layout programs. Every
> >> time
> >> I have tried one of those