Re: [time-nuts] DIY VNA design

[Jim Cotton]

The intersection of HP equipment && Time-Nuts && VNWA mailing lists is >>

At least two ;^)

Jim 
n8qoh


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Re: [time-nuts] Downsizing dilemma, HP 3335A

[Jim Cotton]

I work at a university and my experience has been that the students are willing 
to learn and quite competent.

I advised an aerospace engineering student on building and troubleshooting the 
RF source for a plasma photo chromatography unit he built from scratch (he 
specified and had the tank built).  RF, high voltage, vacuum,  chemistry, 
physics, control systems, instrumentation.

I loaned a spectrum analyzer and a VNA to him by the end of that project.  The 
ARRL handbook was where he started.

I worked with another student in that lab on testing and troubleshooting an ion 
thruster.

I am working with another student group that is using high altitude balloons to 
test ideas/train their group to build a cubesat.  I know, long way from one to 
the other...

The most active electronic hardware builders I have run into at the engineering 
building are the CS students.

The students doing the most EE type work are in degree programs like 
biomedical.  Some of the most gifted CS type students are in electronic "art".

All the CS and EE students do some hands on with a raspberry pi or some other 
flavor of single board computer that they buy along with their books.  Most of 
the EE students end up with a FPGA board and a DSP board too.

Analog/RF is rare, computer hardware/software skills are common.

Jim,
n8qoh


On November 11, 2015 6:26:19 PM EST, "Rob Sherwood."  wrote:
>The EE department at the University of Colorado has an enlightened
>professor.  
>
>http://ecee.colorado.edu/faculty/popovic.html
>
>Zoya required her students to not only get a ham license, but to build
>a Norcal 40A.  
>
>http://ecee.colorado.edu/~ecen2420/Files/NorCal40A_Manual.pdf
>
>
>Most of the EE students had no idea what a resistor really was, let
>alone have any experience in soldering a resistor or capacitor on a PC
>board. One student stuffed the PC board, bent all the leads 90 degrees
>without cutting any of them off, and then in effect flow soldered the
>whole bottom of the PC board!
>
>One wonders how EE grads today can actually get a job and be productive
>with so little hands-on experience.
>
>Zoya belongs to the Boulder (Colorado) Amateur Radio Club, and our
>monthly meetings are in the EE department. It is too bad this is likely
>an unusual example of what happens on campuses today.  
>
>Rob
>NC0B  
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Pete
>Lancashire
>Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 10:01 AM
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Downsizing dilemma, HP 3335A
>
>
>
>I can understand the downsizing, someday it will happen to me. And
>where I live there is pretty much zero interest in anything electronic.
>The two local schools Portland State and Reed both have EE but the
>students done seem to have any interest in anything physical. they
>believe everything they need or have interest in can be simulated on a
>computer. I helped one of the PSU EE's one day, just finished his 2nd
>year, had an old Kenwood stereo distorted left output. He pretty much
>had no idea what to do, and when 'we' found the bad transistor, he
>didn't really know how to replace it.
>
>BTW I know a Comp Sci graduate from PSU that can not write a program in
>any language that outputs "Hello World"
>
>-pete Sad
>
>On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 5:08 AM, paul swed  wrote:
>
>> Bill
>> It is unfortunate when the time comes to downsize. Even worse as time
>
>> goes by at least for me each piece of test equipment from HP seems to
>
>> get heavier. Must be dust building up inside. So as Ed says if you 
>> need that fine grain resolution you need them.
>> But you are also running into the age thing in the gear and that
>there 
>> are failures that creep in that are really a big problem to figure
>out.
>> Especially if some form of programmable logics involved.
>> Lastly sending them to the dumpster is the worst thing. But then the 
>> ole reality really sets in selling packing and shipping the stuff.
>> I guess the good news is that today there is a lot of replacement
>gear 
>> that will do reasonably well thats cheap respectively consumes little
>
>> power and can easily be controlled by usb so you don't have to 
>> actually stop experimenting.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 2:32 AM, ed breya  wrote:
>>
>> > You don't save these kinds of synthesizers for high frequency 
>> > coverage, but for their 10 to 11 digit frequency resolution. If you
>
>> > anticipate needing that, then of course they should be kept and 
>> > fixed. The long-obsolete telecom standard connectors and ranges are
>
>> > pretty much useless - sacrifice that one first if you need parts
>for the others.
>> >
>> > If you need to justify keeping them, you can use them for practical
>
>> > everyday applications. For example, each one can store a telephone
>> number -
>> > as long as the power doesn't go 

Re: [time-nuts] WWV/WWVH audio simulator?

[Jim Cotton]

I have played WWV or CHU when I want to know the time but not be
bothered by extraneous sounds.

I live in Michigan, USA.  When I built my first homebrew RF spectrum 
analyzer

I found that I had to spend a week stopping CHU and another local AM station
from coming in on the power line.

A cheap Sony SW receiver from eBay would work.

Jim

On 1/3/14 1:31 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:

On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Bob Albert bob91...@yahoo.com wrote:


Jayson,

I chuckle because WWV is my favorite radio station also.


Why not tune it in on a good day and record the audio?  Then you can
digitize it on the computer and have a .WAV file which you can play any
time.

Trouble is, if you have recorded the announcements, you won't have the
correct time.  But it might be fun to write a program that generates the
correct figures.  After all, NIST must have that software - perhaps you can
ask them to share it.


I just checked and WWV does not stream audio over the internet. You can get
it through the phone.

But why not just set up a receiver and listen to that? I can't remember a
time when WWV wasn't audible on at least one of its frequencies. Shortwave
receivers that will tune 2.5MHz, 5MHz, 10MHz, 15MHz, and 20MHz are not
expensive, especially if you look for something on eBay. That will also
allow you to tune in CHU for a change. (One can often hear WWV or CHU in my
house.)



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Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work

[Jim Cotton]

I am interested in one.

Jim Cotton


On 11/19/12 3:28 PM, Daniel Mendes wrote:


At this interest rate you´ll sell more units than Apple will sell 
Iphone 5´s... ;)


Daniel

Em 19/11/2012 18:15, cdel...@juno.com escreveu:

As Bert mentioned once the amount if interest is established purchase
details will post.

We also will post a FAQ for this project.

Thanks,

Corby

The New #34;Skinny#34; Fruit
How This Strange 62-Cent African Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa9366d74d913667845st04duc

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Re: [time-nuts] ebay warning

[Jim Cotton]

In an electronics mall (one city clock square with 10 stories)
in szschaduan (sorry my pinyin is awful)
[a trading/wholesale center for clothing and electronics 4 hours
south of Beijing by car] I saw several electronics stores 10m x 10m
with 2-3 employees decent HP, Tek, RS, ??? equipment that did
walk in cell-phone repair at the chip level.

I was impressed with their apparent competence and knowledge.

Jim



On 2/21/12 1:50 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:37:00 -0800
Chris Albertsonalbertson.ch...@gmail.com  wrote:


This may be true of the re-worked FE5680s too.   A reworked unit might
have been tested for 30 minutes or so while the others only got
powered up briefly.

This requires in depth understanding of the device and how it works.
I doubt that many people have this knowledge. Much less some ebay seller.
(i wouldn't sell electronics on ebay if i had that kind of knowledge,
i'd sell my knowledge to some big company and make much more money)

Attila Kinali




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Re: [time-nuts] 5370A on eBay

[Jim Cotton]

On 1/18/12 11:20 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 1:05 AM, Roy Phillipsphill...@btinternet.com  wrote:

Chris
The HP 5335A is also worth considering and is usually reasonably priced.
Roy

Yes you are right but, the question was what's the current price of
these.   Years ago a few were bought for $100.  Some sold as broken
were repairable.   But what does a working unit cost in 2012?   My
definition of working is that at a minimum the seller claims it
works.  Which implies an offer to accept a return on a DOA unit.

On eBay I expect everything to require repair.  I am happy if it works.

Being cheap I would shoot for $125-175 including shipping for a HP 5370B.

What percentage of the units on eBay do you think have passed the
operational check in the front of the manual?  I expect works to
mean does not blow fuses or smoke.  Signs of life in the photo
are a bonus...

FWIW, I repaired a 5370 that had front panel display problems.

I swapped LED digits, DIP jumpers,  and driver transistors on display
board with no effect.  Some digits stayed dead.

Then I separated the front display from the housing to
work on it and it started working.  A close examination showed that
the screws that hold on the front panel assembly are shorter on the
bottom than the top.  Someone had put a long screw on the bottom
and it shorted two traces to ground...

I am still looking for the red plastic piece that covers the digits if 
someone

has a parts unit.  Please contact me off-list.

I bought a 5345A on eBay for $100 that the high-res pictures in the listing
clearly showed was set for external timebase... hence no display.  The 
picture
also showed a two month old cal sticker.  The seller had a working one 
for

$250, and the for repair unit for $100.

I have the HP 5328A, 5342A, 5345A, 5370A/B each one has something it is 
best

at, figure out what you really need the unit to do.

Jim Cotton
n8qoh

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS interference and history...

[Jim Cotton]

Any large IT organization has multiple stratum 1 GPS based
timing receivers.

The public key for our internal routing updates is the time.  No time and
the routing would break.  We route ~10+ Tb/hr in the 8am-5pm business
day.  That would be noticed by our users...

On one building on our campus (College of Engineering ~1/4 mile long 
building )

I counted 14 mushroom antennas, I see other patch antennas on windows...

Jim Cotton

On 1/13/12 9:29 AM, Jim Lux wrote:

On 6/10/11 7:01 PM, Hal Murray wrote:


li...@rtty.us said:
There's an enormous amount of gear out there that gets timing off of 
GPS.


That's an interesting claim.  Does anybody have any data on the usage 
of GPS

for timing?

I assume there is one in every cell tower and one in every 911 call 
center.

Are there other large categories of users?



GPS is pretty ubiquitous as a time source for data loggers in the 
field, things like traffic signals, etc.   There's real value in an 
inexpensive little box that makes sure you don't have to set the 
clock, even if the clock accuracy requirement is something like 1 minute.







What would it cost to replace all of it?  If you wanted to do 
something like
that, what would it cover?  How about people like us running old 
recycled

gear?  (Z3801A, ThunderBolt, ...)


A fortune, quite literally




I think I saw one last week.  It was on a river level measuring 
station on
the Sacramento River.  It was a small block building.  There was an 
antenna
pointing up into the sky.  I assume there is a satellite up there.  
There was
also a small (~3 inch dia) hemisphere antenna. I assume it was GPS.  
(They
had power going into the building (no solar panels) so it should have 
been

simple to get a phone line too.)


Not necessarily.  And it's not cheap.  Don't forget that you can't run 
power and phone in the same conduit, cable, etc.   So basically you're 
doubling the physical plant installation costs to bring in phone, just 
for the labor to bring it from the nearest point of presence. 
Especially in rural farm kinds of areas, power is more pervaisve than 
phone (gotta run irrigation pumps, etc.)


Adding a $100-200 GPS receiver (we're not talking GPSDO with OCXO 
here..) is probably cheaper than running ANY length of phone wires: 
just for the termination costs.


I suppose one could use some sort of GPRS cellular service and get 
time, but then you're on the hook for a monthly subscription fee, etc.



cheap L1 only GPS is a great solution.  Apply power, wait, you've got 
accurate time.  No need to have someone visit periodically and check 
to see if the clock needs to be reset, etc.







I'm not sure why they need GPS at the recording house.  They know 
where it is
so timing is the only use I can think of.  But they could also get 
that at

the receiving end.  Millisecond accuracy isn't helpful.  Second level
accuracy might be interesting if something breaks and you want to 
know when
the wave got to downstream stations.  The risetime is probably over a 
second.



You're right, they don't need milliseconds, nor do they need seconds, 
probably.


There's really no other convenient way to get time to the nearest 
minute that is as reliable and cheap as GPS. Think about it... WWVB? 
WWV? Vertical pointing sun sensor?




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Re: [time-nuts] HP10811-60111 oven failure + repair

[Jim Cotton]

I had a 10811 with an open thermal fuse.  I think that I
just replaced it with a 105 degrees C thermal fuse
from Radio Shack since the price after shipping
was about the same.

Jim Cotton
n8qoh

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Re: [time-nuts] HP10811-60111 oven failure + repair

[Jim Cotton]

$1.79 + tax and I have the fuse today, looks like their closest match
stocked in stores is 128 degrees C

Jim Cotton
n8qoh

On 10/21/11 9:54 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:

I also ordered some 'replacement' fuses from Allied or Mouser or the like (I
can't recall) that were close to the specified temp but not exact.  Much
cheaper, IIRC, about $4 each vs.$1.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Jim Cotton
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 8:42 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP10811-60111 oven failure + repair


I had a 10811 with an open thermal fuse.  I think that I
just replaced it with a 105 degrees C thermal fuse
from Radio Shack since the price after shipping
was about the same.

Jim Cotton
n8qoh

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Re: [time-nuts] Fast than light neutrino

[Jim Cotton]

What about rotation of the earth?

Jim Cotton
n8qoh

On 9/25/11 2:35 AM, Javier Serrano wrote:

On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Magnus Danielson
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org  wrote:


I was about to ask for the specific papers of time calibrations, even if
the overview presentation indicates that the verification steps I expect to
be there have been done. Also the path calibrations needs to be described
more in detail than in the paper.


I'll discuss with Pablo to see how we can put more stuff on the web.



First thought was that someone forgot to compensate for GPS antenna cable
delays.


We did not forget. The two GPS calibration campaigns (zero baseline and
portable receiver) were done with antenna and antenna cable included.



Do you have direct fiber between the locations?


You mean between CERN and Gran Sasso? No, but that's certainly something we
could explore for the future.

Cheers,

Javier
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Re: [time-nuts] fluke.l monitor for Thunderbolt . . . the sagacontinues

[Jim Cotton]

It is between four and five Yuan.  Four Yuan at the local market will buy
what four dollars will buy in the US (as long as you are not
buying imported goods).

jcc

On 7/7/11 11:06 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

You forget that this Fluke.L guy's first design replaced three
diodes with wire jumpers to save the cost of three diodes.  The
builder is cheap beyond all reason.  To a guy who'd replace diodes
with wire $0.78 must seem like a fortune.

I'd use a 3.3 volt reg also  but in China 78 cents is what?  Half a day's pay?

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:48 AM, David VanHorn
d.vanh...@elec-solutions.com  wrote:

Vf is highly dependent on current and temperature.  The processor alone is a 
very dynamic load.
I wouldn't trust it in a hobby project, and I can't imagine proposing it for a 
professional design.

Without knowing much in details, a bog standard 3.3V regulator is $0.78 at 
Digikley, in singles.
L78L33ABZ-AP
If there are unusual requirements, then that might go up.

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] latest on the lightsquared 'saga'

[Jim Cotton]

The other scenerio is buy stock in the leading GPS makers and assume that
they and Lightsquared will lobby effectively and everyone will be forced to
buy new GPS units...

There is precedent in that, the DTV converter box vouchers...

Jim Cotton
n8qoh

On 3/3/11 3:09 PM, jimlux wrote:

On 3/3/11 9:34 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

There's obviously major fuel behind this thing. I'm willing to pass 
up GPS
underground. It's GPS out in the open that is my main concern. IF 
they are

going to use this for last mile connect to homes it will indeed be
everywhere and anywhere. IF that's the case, you loose all sorts of GPS
stuff.

I'd hate to see my GPSDO collection wind up sitting next to the Loran C
stuff out in the shed.




My theory is that the reason that this can't work is complex enough 
(yes, trivial for us time-nuts and GPS afficionados, but complex for 
most others) so it looks like could work to a lot of people, and is 
attractive, so the stock price would get bid up.


So, a wise person would do the following:
--- Wait for them to IPO
--- Watch the runup in stock price because it's the greatest thing 
since sliced bread and will bring broadband to the unwashed masses, 
resulting in world peace, etc.

--- short the stock or buy a default swap on them going under
Lightsquared discovers that there is an insurmountable regulatory 
hurdle
L2 says, bummer, I guess we have to close up shop or redirect our 
efforts

Stock price crashes

-- Cash in on the default swap or stock puts


or, a more benign one... you could keep quite a crew of folks busy 
looking at all the ramifications and implications and doing studies 
for half a dozen years, and then move onto something else after having 
burned other people's money that was invested.


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Re: [time-nuts] Slightly OT - GPS-Based Accurate Direction Finding

[Jim Cotton]

Back in the early 1980's when attending college I worked on a single 
axis multi-mode fiber optic
rate gyro project that used GRIN fiber.  Back then a military three axis 
unit based on single mode
fiber was alleged to be a little larger than a one inch cube and cost 
slightly less than a million dollars.


We used a three inch spool for the fiber and put everything in a six 
inch cube for a housing.


The NASA contract was part of the NASP program.

The company that we worked with wanted to produce a product for the 
commercial private

pilot aviation market.  I will have to ask what happened...

I think the patent issue may have had something to do with it since the 
company had a

relationship with Litton.

Jim Cotton
n8qoh

b...@lysator.liu.se wrote:

Does anyone know how laser gyroscopes are developing?


Laser gyroscopes - as in Ring Laser Gyroscopes or as in Fiber Optic
Gyroscopes?

  

RLGs are a standard commercial product.  Several years back I was
walking through the Honeywell plant in St Paul, MN, and they had a
display case of at least a dozen RLGs that they've made over the past
few decades.



Commercial?

US RLGs are all ITAR.

All types of gyros usable in the systems in Item 1, with a rated drift
rate stability of less than 0.5 degree (1 sigma or rms) per hour

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/p121.htm

Honeywell has about 2 different RLGs. Only one (gg1320) of which you can
make a north sensing out of. Litton (now NGC) used to do RLGs (their zero
lock gyros) but I think they were on the loosing side of a patent war
with Honeywell.

French Sagem do some for high end military systems. Have I missed a RLG
manufacturer? Almost as few vendors as in the Cesium oscillator market...

No new RLG sensors has been announced during the last decade or two.

--

Björn


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[time-nuts] Looking for a 5370 red digit cover/window

[Jim Cotton]

I need the red plastic digit cover/window [approximately 1 3/4 x 14 3/4]
to complete the repair of a HP 5370 counter/timer.  I don't care if it says
5370A or B.  I assume that no major change occurred other than the
unit identifier changing.  Perhaps someone can correct me if I am wrong in
making this assumption.

It would be nice to get the bezel clip/strip too, however I suspect that
they tend to disintegrate during removal of the red display cover.

Does anyone have this available from a parts chassis in their lab?

I would be happy to pay a reasonable price plus postage.  I am located in
Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA.

Jim Cotton
n8qoh

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Re: [time-nuts] HP5372A CRT schematics

[Jim Cotton]

If it is a Sony with the non-fr4 board material, look for a hairline 
crack in the

board with the flyback, the unit may have been dropped in shipping.

Jim Cotton
n8qoh

Magnus Danielson wrote:

Fellow Time-nuts,

I have problem with a HP5372A, where the CRT failed and only shows a 
vertical line of compressed graphics. Obviously something is broken in 
the drive-side. So, does anyone have the schematics and possibly other 
service info for the CRT module? I can't recall seeing any schematics 
in the service manual, only module-level tuning.


I am sure it is close to trivial to fix, but it becomes easier with a 
schematic at hand.


As I recall it, it looks like a standard CRT module and to be honest, 
I am not very impressed about its functionality.


Cheers,
Magnus

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[time-nuts] Motorola GPS board with OnCore module questions

[Jim Cotton]

I have a Motorola RF-Audience! module with a GPS receiver
(disciplined time source).

I am not sure how to identify it

Motorola 848504F01 P4, PTRN4307A, Copyright 1996, 4 x 11,
has an OnCore GPS receiver installed.

Front

LED's  9pin DBNC
pwr 10Mhz GPS 1PPS   RS23210Mhz


Back

9pinD  15pin D BNC
PowerGPS/Timing10Mhz

To make it more than a nice looking paperweight, I need:

1.  A manual, or at the least connector pin outs.

2.  Someone removed the OCXO.

   a. part number and source at a reasonable cost to replace the OCXO...

   b. Has someone already hacked a HP 10811, or HP 10544 to this board?

Jim Cotton
n8qoh

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