Re: [time-nuts] Line Voltage - USA

[LEE MUSHEL]

Another one of those fascinating "threads!"  I have lived through the claimed 
110, 117 and 120 volt periods and have been apparently lucky enough to not have 
suffered any device damage.   At present I live on a hill and do worry about 
lightning strikes to ham radio antennas.   The last time I counted I had over 
20 standard eight foot plated ground rods driven at various places and the 
entrance point of these antennas to the house is protected by an additional 6 
rods.  All wiring in the house is either thin wall tubing or other armored 
cable.   Thus I effectively have building perimeter protection as well.   All 
grounds are tied together along with the power neutral.  I also have an 
automatic transfer backup alternator with separate ground also tied to the 
entire system.   I do disconnect antennas during storm threats but in the past 
thirty years have yet to have any "over voltage" damage.  From time to time I 
do check the line voltage but not with any NBS standard voltmeter and have 
 found that it does "drift" between 120 and 126  which I feel is outstanding 
given the general circumstances which include being several miles from the 
distribution point along a rural road and the possibility of some fairly 
demanding motor starting loads that I deal with.  My input panel is over 200 
ft. from the farmer's electric co-op transformer which I used to share with two 
neighbors but now I have "my own."  Yes, I do have lightning rod protection.

73  

Lee  K9WRU
- Original Message -
From: Poul-Henning Kamp 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement , 
Chuck Harris 
Sent: Mon, 02 Jan 2017 12:55:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Line Voltage - USA


In message <586a8b40.4050...@erols.com>, Chuck Harris writes:

>Back in the dark ages of ~220V electrical distribution systems in
>Europe, the reaping due to unintentional grounding of a ~220V wire
>was  so common and extreme, whole house ground fault interrupters
>were mandated for all residential/small business power systems
>therein.

Close, but no cigar.

The main problem was that in many countries outlets did not have a
protective ground terminal.

That meant that an internal fault in your appliance had a 50/50
chance of lighting up some exterior metal part you could touch.

The "obvious solution" isn't obvious in countries where the geography
does not allow you to obtain proper "protective ground".  Norway being a
good example.

But even countries with the "obvious solution" of protective ground
in all outlets saw problems, because it took 10-16 ampere misdirected
current to blow the fuse, and you can light most flameable stuff
with a lot less energy than that.

The "Residual Current Device" solved both problems.

RCD's even protect you from internal faults where proper protective
ground is not available, by providing neutral from "outside" the
RCD as PG in the installation.  You'll still be (horribly!) exposed
of an accident in the distribution grid (or lightning!) fires up
the neutral, but that's simply life - or death - without a grounding
rod.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] magnetic electronic components

[Lee Mushel]

You might also find Doug DeMaw's book Ferromagnetic Core Design  
Application Handbook to be of interest.


73

Lee   K9WRU
- Original Message - 
 On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote:



Hi,

I was looking up some stuff and realized (again) that I don't know
anything about how magnetic electronic components (inductors/solenoids,
transfomers, baluns, ferrite beads...) work. Yes, I can calculate
the inductance, I know how to get from the AL value to number of
windings. But I don't know anything about the practical issues
or where they come from. Unfortunatelly, this knowledge seems to
generally rare among EEs (at least everyone I asked in the last
couple of years) and books about it are either long out of print
(with no pdf available) or more geared towards the physics student.

So, does anyone have any recomendation where I could read up
on this? Books, pdfs, webpages,... anything.

Also something that covers more the application side, ie how to
use ferrite beads/toroids to build devices, would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Attila Kinali

--
I must not become metastable.
Metastability is the mind-killer.
Metastability is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my metastability.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the metastability has gone there will be nothing. Only I will 
remain.


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Re: [time-nuts] D term (was no subject)

[Lee Mushel]

I'm fairly sure that Jim is right.   I never had to worry about PID machine 
control before the late sixties and by the mid-seventies the concepts were 
firmly in place and in use.   It certainly was the appearance of solid state 
industrial controls which made it all possible.   And those ideas have made 
possible some system performance that I recall as being impossible only a 
few years earlier.


Lee Mushel
- Original Message - 
From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net
To: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk; Discussion of precise time 
and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] D term (was no subject)



On 1/26/15 5:55 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message 54c5a270.7090...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes:


And there's decades, if not centuries, of experience with P, PI and PID
controllers in a practical sense.


Not quite a century I belive:  Only the advent of electronics formalized
the theory and developed the practice.

Almost all mechanical governors er pure P.





Maxwell strikes again

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/On_Governors.pdf

definitely more than P controllers..

cups with liquid (Siemens governor), nonlinear mechanisms, etc.

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Re: [time-nuts] HOW WE GOT TO NOW WITH STEVEN JOHNSON | Time AnInside Look | PBS

[Lee Mushel]

Well, there is no mention of precision or time measurement.   Seems like a 
simple, harmless presentation to me.   I will admit that from time to time 
my wife does object to some of his work!  We do watch Frontline and are 
grateful for many of the topics they cover.


Lee A. Mushel
- Original Message - 
From: Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 12:51 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] HOW WE GOT TO NOW WITH STEVEN JOHNSON | Time AnInside 
Look | PBS




Hi:

I don't have TV and wonder if anyone who has PBS can comment on this 
program?

preview at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhDvGhFbpq8

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html

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Re: [time-nuts] Z38xx rack mounts

[Lee Mushel]

Dave,

I, too, hate piles of dumb little boxes.   So when the Z3801 appeared I went 
on line, bought some sheet aluminum of appropriate thickness,  cut a panel 
sized piece, drilled a few holes with an appropriate twist drill to allow 
the start of a hacksaw and then finished the clearance hole for the 3801 
with a file.  I supported the 3801 with some aluminum extrusion angle stock 
and then painted the whole she-bang with paint to match my stuff.   And lo, 
no dumb little box, and it fits a standard 19 inch rack perfectly.   If you 
send me an email address I will send a photo.


Lee
- Original Message - 
From: Dave M dgmin...@mediacombb.net

To: FEBO Time Nuts time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:44 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Z38xx rack mounts



I have a couple questions regarding the Z38xx type units.  I have a Z3801A,
and a couple other modules that don't need a full 19 rack space.  The 
Z38xx

units are 11 wide (10-9/16 mounting centers) , and obviously are not
suitable for a standard 19 rack cabinet.



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Re: [time-nuts] Is a crystal likely to change frequency by 3% ?

[Lee Mushel]

Interesting topic!   Of course I no longer wear a watch since such a habit 
after advancing well into retirement seems pointless but I did want to point 
out that perhaps you could include the Bulova Accutron in your studies. 
Long ago I fell on ice and landed on my wrist with the result that my space 
model accutron never ran again .   But a year ago I asked my wife where it 
was and she produced it which was then entrusted to a local horologist who 
studied it and said he couldn't get the parts to repair it.   But after he 
had examined it I found that it did, indeed, start running again--for a 
time. But then it stopped and I gave up since others skilled in the art 
simply wanted more for a repair than I wanted to give.   But I will still 
admit that from time to time a watch is a good thing and I find that the 
seven dollar models I can buy today keep time much better than the old 
Accutron ever did!


Encouraging regards,

Lee
- Original Message - 
From: Alexander Pummer alex...@ieee.org
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Is a crystal likely to change frequency by 3% ?





there is only one magnet, which drives the fastest moving arm -- the 
pointer for the seconds -- the other arms are connected via gears, by the 
way that case with the weak periodically recovering battery is an observed 
one, I connected a paper chart recorder to the clock  and recorded the 
battery voltage change and the driver pulses of the magnet -- the recorder 
was not able to follow the individual pulses, but the envelope

73
Alex



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB for Time Nuts

[Lee Mushel]

Jeeze, Brooke, I wish you hadn't brought up the possible patenting of  Time 
Delay Beam steering antennas!   I wonder if my highly esteemed SDR radio 
which I think uses some such technology, is illegal?


73

Lee   K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2014 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB for Time Nuts



Hi:

When I was in high school I built an oscilloscope from a kit made by 
Electronic Instrument Co. (EICO).

AFAICR Dumont had some patent that the kit avoided.
ARAIK you can build any patented device for you own use.

The reason I like patents is that they explain many things that books 
avoid.
Time delay beam steering antennas (frequency independent unlike phased 
array antennas) (Fenwick) are patented but even today not in antenna 
books.
If you want to know what makes something a geodesic dome read the patent. 
I have a tall stack of books and none of them spell it out.


Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
http://www.prc68.com/I/DietNutrition.html

Jim Lux wrote:

On 8/9/14, 12:56 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Keep in mind that the patent(s) do not keep you from building a part for 
your own use.


AS I understand it, this is not technically true. You can practice the 
patent to gain an understanding of it for the purposes of inventing 
something new that is based on that patent, or to design around it.  But 
you can't practice it, just because it's useful.


 If I patent, oh, let's say, a swing consisting of a board (of an exotic, 
but readily available, composite material) hanging from a tree limb with 
two rods (of another exotic, but readily available material), you cannot 
go out and build that swing in your backyard for your kids to play on. 
You can, however, build that swing and do testing on it, connecting load 
cells, motion tracking systems using real time kinematic GPS receivers, 
and carefully measure the variations in the period of the swing as the 
gravitational pull of the moon shifts, etc. Perhaps you are going to 
build a better swing, maybe using 3 ropes instead of 2 (since my patent 
attorney didn't write the claims well).



 Regardless of what they do / do not patent, a TimeNut can still build 
(and use for themselves) what ever they wish.




Now, if you (after careful examination) believe that the privately held 
patents keep you from building a receiver for a Federally Funded 
service - talk to your elected representatives. They are the ones who 
can / will fire up a committee to look into this sort of stuff.  I think 
I would want to have some information on license costs before I made 
that phone call though.




precisely so

Jim

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Re: [time-nuts] Local Solar Time Clock

[Lee Mushel]

Gosh, Spring Wound would be hard pressed for even sidereal time.   I know 
I can't do that with my Atmos which is a definite step up from spring.


Lee
- Original Message - 
From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Local Solar Time Clock



I wonder if you really need a special clock?  Can't you adjust a normal
spring driven clock to run fast (or is it slow?) by about 1/3 of a 
percent

(one day per year)?  This should be within the range of adjustment.






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Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA

[Lee Mushel]

Lightning is certainly one of Old Mother Nature's principal weapons as well 
as being extremely unpredictable.   My House/Shack is on the side of a hill 
with the Antenna Farm on top of the hill about 120 yds away with an 
additional 30 ft. of elevation.   There is a metal lightning rod extending 
high enough to provide a cone of protection for the house and is grounded 
directly.   And there are five other metal antennas on that roof, two to a 
separate ground and three to still another which is close to the shack 
ground field which is three additional  ground rods.   All ground rods I 
mention are the standard 8 ft. copper plated steel items.  Each of five 
antennas in the antenna field also have individual ground rods and I guess 
if you follow the cable shields you could say that they are all connected 
together.A couple of years ago I counted all ground rods and came up 
with 23.   Before all of the metal was added and the lightning rod was the 
only metal extending about 20 ft. above the roof and we had an electrical 
storm my wife would complain that she could feel her hair trying to rise in 
response to the field coming from the cable which ran across the roof and at 
it's closest point was only 6-7 ft. from her head as the crow flies.   But 
after all the additional metal was added in the form of antennas with 
grounds  she no longer complained.


I do not claim to understand what goes on around here at an elevation of 
about 102 ft. above the valley floor but I believe that we have been 
fortunate  (or lucky if you prefer that word) and we have so much metal in 
the air that most discharges are not of the type that is accompanied by 
thunder!   Two years ago we had a tree die that was no more than 30 ft. from 
the house.   Since I have not always been able to accurately predict where 
trees will fall that I cut myself I hired a professional to take it down and 
he took one look at it, reached up and stripped off a piece of bark and 
commented, See those lines?   This tree was struck by lightning.   That's 
what killed it!   But no lightning related damage to structure or equipment 
here for nearly 15 years!


My only thought on the subject was that only a fool would fail to disconnect 
an antenna that rises above the house roof  during an electrical storm.   I 
freely admit that I have several ham radio VHF antennas  (and a GPS antenna 
supplying the disciplined system for frequency reference) well below roof 
peak level  (clear view to south for GPS, of course) that I do not 
disconnect from inexpensive radios maintained for the purpose.


This is risk I accept.   And I certainly have seen paths followed by 
lightning that are truly amazing!  and horrendously damaging.  Never 
forget that you only live once and you do have a perfect right to enjoy your 
hobby without fear.


Regards,

Lee A. Mushel   K9WRU


- Original Message - 
From: quartz55 quart...@hughes.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA


.  I'm not thrilled having it above the beams, it's the highest metal thing 
in the area and most likely more prone to lightning than anything else 
excpet the trees and it will blow around a bit up there as well as rotating 
once in a while.  I did have a strike here once, but it was down by the barn 
and was looking for the underground telephone cables, it blew apart a post 
and knocked off the boards, it was maybe 100 yards from the shack.  It 
wouldn't be much of a problem to dig a tiny trench to the fence and I may 
try that after this precise survey is done, then do another and see if 
anything changes.  I could hide it i
n a bird box at the fence too.  After all at this point I'm just playing. 
I'll eventually make up my mind.  Also, I don't have an attic, so that's 
not an option.


Dave
N3DT
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Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA

[Lee Mushel]

Don,

Thanks for the suggestion!   I have no doubt that you are correct and 
especially so at the moment of any strike or discharge.   But these rods 
cover an area approximately 200 by 500 ft. and I don't find heavy cable 
practical!  Feedline varies from the RG-58 you would expect to 7/8 inch 
Andrew (350').


Lee
- Original Message - 
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA



Lee, if I can make a couple of comments, first, you can have large
voltage differences among your 23 ground rods, depending on the ground
terminus of the lightning strokes. Second, antennae and feed lines that
do not attract lightning due to being hidden can still be subject to
large induced voltages.
I'd suggest all the ground rods and antenna bases be connected directly
with large cable so they are all truly at the same ground potential...
Don

Lee Mushel

Lightning is certainly one of Old Mother Nature's principal weapons as
well
as being extremely unpredictable.   My House/Shack is on the side of a
hill
with the Antenna Farm on top of the hill about 120 yds away with an
additional 30 ft. of elevation.   There is a metal lightning rod
extending
high enough to provide a cone of protection for the house and is
grounded
directly.   And there are five other metal antennas on that roof, two to
a
separate ground and three to still another which is close to the shack
ground field which is three additional  ground rods.   All ground rods
I
mention are the standard 8 ft. copper plated steel items.  Each of five
antennas in the antenna field also have individual ground rods and I
guess
if you follow the cable shields you could say that they are all
connected
together.A couple of years ago I counted all ground rods and came up
with 23.   Before all of the metal was added and the lightning rod was
the
only metal extending about 20 ft. above the roof and we had an
electrical
storm my wife would complain that she could feel her hair trying to rise
in
response to the field coming from the cable which ran across the roof
and at
it's closest point was only 6-7 ft. from her head as the crow flies.
But
after all the additional metal was added in the form of antennas with
grounds  she no longer complained.

I do not claim to understand what goes on around here at an elevation of
about 102 ft. above the valley floor but I believe that we have been
fortunate  (or lucky if you prefer that word) and we have so much
metal in
the air that most discharges are not of the type that is accompanied
by
thunder!   Two years ago we had a tree die that was no more than 30 ft.
from
the house.   Since I have not always been able to accurately predict
where
trees will fall that I cut myself I hired a professional to take it down
and
he took one look at it, reached up and stripped off a piece of bark and
commented, See those lines?   This tree was struck by lightning.
That's
what killed it!   But no lightning related damage to structure or
equipment
here for nearly 15 years!

My only thought on the subject was that only a fool would fail to
disconnect
an antenna that rises above the house roof  during an electrical storm.
 I
freely admit that I have several ham radio VHF antennas  (and a GPS
antenna
supplying the disciplined system for frequency reference) well below
roof
peak level  (clear view to south for GPS, of course) that I do not
disconnect from inexpensive radios maintained for the purpose.

This is risk I accept.   And I certainly have seen paths followed by
lightning that are truly amazing!  and horrendously damaging.  Never
forget that you only live once and you do have a perfect right to enjoy
your
hobby without fear.

Regards,

Lee A. Mushel   K9WRU


- Original Message -
From: quartz55 quart...@hughes.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA


 .  I'm not thrilled having it above the beams, it's the highest metal
thing
in the area and most likely more prone to lightning than anything else
excpet the trees and it will blow around a bit up there as well as
rotating
once in a while.  I did have a strike here once, but it was down by the
barn
and was looking for the underground telephone cables, it blew apart a
post
and knocked off the boards, it was maybe 100 yards from the shack.  It
wouldn't be much of a problem to dig a tiny trench to the fence and I
may
try that after this precise survey is done, then do another and see if
anything changes.  I could hide it i

n a bird box at the fence too.  After all at this point I'm just
playing.
I'll eventually make up my mind.  Also, I don't have an attic, so
that's
not an option.

Dave
N3DT
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Re: [time-nuts] Removing goop was: =Re: 10811 Outer oven controller schematic

[Lee Mushel]

Gentlemen,

In my home you will find a fair variety of common solvents.  MEK, Toluene 
And Xylene will always be there.   Of course, it is only fair to warn 
everyone that the common industrial manufacture of Toluene and Xylene do not 
remove all of the closely related (chemically) and universally recognized 
carcinogen.   Therefore, use reasonable care and ventilation and not more 
than you have to.   You can't expect the less harmful and more commonly used 
aliphatics like the alcohols, to remove the tarry stuff.   And if you 
don't want to remove your desirable finishes you can go to the chlorinated 
solvents.   But be warned that those are known to cause funny bumps and 
growths in you, too!


But just in case I've scared you off I will finish with a statement that 
when I come in contact with poisonous plant material and begin to itch I 
simply take MEK or Toluene on a paper towel and use it to energetically 
remove the invisible waxy stuff that the plant uses to make sure the 
irritant stays in place and causes the misery of blisters and open sores! 
If you get this done in the itch stage and before the blisters appear you 
will be very pleasantly surprised!   Even my daughter-in-law, who agrees 
with very little I say, admits I'm right about this!


Regards,

Lee Mushel
- Original Message - 
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Removing goop was: =Re: 10811 Outer oven 
controller schematic




I haven't found anything that really removes sticker glue without
scarring the paint 

Xylene is availble as goof-off in paint departments.

Graham

This has been an interesting discussion on how to remove goop from
stuff.

I find that one or the other of the common methyl or ethyl alcohols
is
sufficient in many cases to remove goop and has proven to be quite
safe on almost all surfaces.

When one of the common alcohols doesn't work I resort to a product
marketed by Circa 1850 under the name of Super DeGooper. The label
says
it Removes these Goops: Oil Crayon, Tar, Marker, Gum, Labels, Shoe
Polish, Adhesive, Duct Tape, Lipstick, Grease, stickers, Dried Latex
Paint but in my experience is quite effect on much, much more and is
safe on most surfaces.

The caution label indicates that it contains xylene.

Works for me and when it doesn't I then resort to the much stronger
lacquer thinner or acetone. All are flammable and are used carefully
with adequate ventilation.

And when all else fails, good old scraping is used.


cheers, Graham ve3gtc


On 13-07-31 11:15 AM, Rex wrote:

I suspect by gas he meant gasoline.

I don't know about what paint remover he meant but I have another
suggestion that might have worked. For cleaning label gunk off of
used
test equipment I have used automotive bug and tar remover. Seems to
loosen up lots of gunk but not so strong it hurts the panel paint
and
lettering.



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--
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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--
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it.
-George Bernard Shaw



Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Spectrum Analyzer Suggestions

[Lee Mushel]

The SDR-IQ is certainly a great little receiver.   Simon Brown's 
SDR-Console software  satisfies my needs.


Lee Mushel
- Original Message - 
From: Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net
To: Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com; Discussion of precise time and 
frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Spectrum Analyzer Suggestions



Hi Perry:

You might consider the SDR-IQ Software Defined Radio.
This particular model is very capable and very reasonably priced.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Bats.shtml#SDRIQ
http://www.rfspace.com/RFSPACE/SDR-IQ.html
500 Hertz to 30 MHz coverage.  Useable down to 100 Hz.

Not as good as the HP 4395A which goes down to 10 Hertz with a true RBW of 
1 Hz.

http://www.prc68.com/I/4395A.shtml#SA

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

Perry Sandeen wrote:


List,
  I just purchased a HP 3585 spec analyzer on E bay
for a reasonable price.  I wanted this
instead of the 181 series as the range was more to what I’d be using and 
it was

of a newer vintage.  The 3585a goes from
10 Hz to 40 MHz which is a most useful range for my purposes. so far, so 
good.

  The problem is I didn’t know the beast weighed a svelte
88 pounds! Double Hernia time!
  What I’d appreciate advice for a used spec
analyzer in the $1,000 range that is at least much lighter.  A smaller 
size would also be a benefit.  I probably would never use it above 100 
MHz. A

slightly smaller screen would be OK.
  Suggestions appreciated.
  Regards,
  Perrier
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Re: [time-nuts] How dangerous if a Rb lamp broken?

[Lee Mushel]

I just tried calling your cell because you seem to be the legitimate 
person to ask.   I don't read all the time-nuts postings but has anyone ever 
brought up the most logical aspect of ionizing radiation for the group: the 
radium dial wrist watch? or are they all too young to have experienced that? 
I think I got one for Christmas when I was 12 or 13.   I'm still here at 74! 
I do think that all reflector's are at their best when they are 
entertaining---maybe not exactly on topic!


Regards,

Lee MushelI live about 20 miles from the Mississippi and 50 miles north 
of the Illinois border.   We simply try to enjoy life, our garden, our 
flowers, our dogs and our cats.  Best to stay away from neighbors and social 
media!



- Original Message - 
From: Mike Feher mfe...@eozinc.com
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How dangerous if a Rb lamp broken?



You must really be a legend in your own mind, and now, a self-proclaimed
time-nuts cop.  -

Mike B. Feher, EOZ Inc.
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960 office
908-902-3831 cell





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Re: [time-nuts] How dangerous if Rb lamp broken?

[Lee Mushel]

I do agree with you, generally, on the topic of ionizing radiation and want 
to thank you for reminding me to check the batteries in my geiger counter! 
I do live with a nuclear power plant upwind from me and thus feel that 
maintenance of the instrument is desirable.   And I do remember back in the 
prehysteria days when, in the middle of a mineralogy lecture, a second 
professor broke into the room with long tongs and removed a rock sample that 
had been used for identification and was known to be radioactive and quickly 
retreated with it.   Until that moment any danger had not been considered. 
Not that the lesson did any good because I know that I have a rather large 
radioactive sample in our bedroom closet where it has peacefully resided for 
some twenty plus years.   I would suggest that anyone who is actively 
looking for something to get excited about look into the packaging materials 
we use for our foods today!


Sincerest best regards,

Lee A. Mushel,  K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Robert Atkinson robert8...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How dangerous if Rb lamp broken?



Hi
Why are so many people radiophobic? As in ionising radiation. There are 
far more hazardous things in our hobby, electrocution and falling from a 
height be two of the big killers. I defy anyone to come up with a 
confirmed case of death caused by radiation as part of our hobby. Lead, 
solder flux, mercury, PCB's (the chemical in some caps and transformers) 
and cleaning solvents are all more harmful to our health. 



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Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers

[Lee Mushel]

Boy, are you bringing back memories and you made me look to see that my 
collection of odd old stuff wasn't damaged by the recent flooding we've had. 
I know that I have a 64 bit handwired memory board and I couldn't find 
that but did stir up a Fabri-Tek board that I think was 64 K but that was an 
entirely different generation.   I did get to tour the SAGE system computer 
at Madison's Truax Field in 1958.   They had the loudspeaker on so you could 
hear the computer work.   A monster pile of vaccuum tubes!


Lee   K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] tube GPS receivers



On 6/23/13 10:47 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
Magnetic cores were not invented until the 1950's and realy cam into use 
as

tubes were beibg replaced by SS.  But there isnot reason yu can't build a
tube computer with core memory.   I have actually seen and used a 
computer

that had one megabyte of core memory.  The stuff was still in use in the
late 1970s   1MB was a lot of RAM in 1975.





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Re: [time-nuts] OT - DC-10 gyros

[Lee Mushel]

Great to know there's someone around who loves complex electro-mechanical 
systems!   I thought the population had dropped to zero!


Regards,

Lee
- Original Message - 
From: Bill Ezell w...@quackers.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 2:40 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] OT - DC-10 gyros



Well, I can come up with something topical, read on. :)

I saw a 'Bendix yaw-rate gyro' on FleaBay recently for $14.50. Of course, 
I had to buy it.


What I got was the yaw-rate gyro package from a Northwest Airlines DC-10 
that was stripped for parts around 2000. The gyro included the pull tag 
with tail number, the license number of the AP mechanic that pulled it, 
and some other cool stuff.


What it turned out to really be is two gyros with two sets of electronics 
in one box about 6 x 2 x 5 box, all vintage '80s or so. Even better, 
it's a strapdown system. The actual gyro wheel is about the size of your 
thumbnail. I've just started tracing things out, and I've gotten the gyros 
to spin up. I really love mechanical gyros for some reason, too bad 
there's not a gyro-nuts group. I'm going to have great fun getting the 
package traced out and running.




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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

[Lee Mushel]

Well, it could have been ELF whose Seafarer antenna was located at Clam Lake 
Wisconsin.   My grandfather built a vacation cabin just north of Clam Lake 
and it was a big deal to visit the place.   That was before the peaceniks 
were demonstrating since they didn't seem to want our submarines to do too 
much damage to Russia.   I think that antenna was almost 30 miles 
long---don't quote me but it was an important component in the very low 
frequency communications system of the Navy..


Lee   K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival



could be it...
Don

jmfranke

Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many
of
the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland
LORAN
system run primarily for the railroads.

John  WA4WDL

--
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival




No you use a great number of tiny

overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
Think about rats and cockroaches
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a
buried
cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called,
or present status.  These things are kinda lost these days, like the
original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport
of
truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs...
Don


--
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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--
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] Water Proof Vent

[Lee Mushel]

Well, remember that Tyvek is not a vapor barrier---that's what makes it so 
useful but if you're going to  use it I suggest you review partial pressures 
and decide if the vapor movement is in the direction you want it!


Lee
- Original Message - 
From: Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Water Proof Vent



Hi:

You might consider using a piece Tyvek material.  You can get it free from 
the USPS in the form of a priority mailing envelope or at a construction 
site where it's used to warp the outside of houses.

Passes water vapor and air but not water.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/Clarke4Congress.html



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Re: [time-nuts] Conformal Coating

[Lee Mushel]

Be careful!   You have now introduced a label into the discussion that 
might trigger some vendor into thinking that you are looking for a UV Cured 
coating.   And those things can be something you don't want to mess with.


Back in the 70's when those coatings first appeared no one bothered to take 
note that they are very chemically reactive---they have to be since UV light 
is not a particularly agressive curing agent and to compensate for that UV 
cured  (not simply something that fluoresces)materials  tend to be stuff 
that you don't want to come in contact with.   I can show you some places on 
my left hand that break into open sores today, some 35 years later. 
Today, no one doubts that they are carcinogens.


Lee Mushel
- Original Message - 
From: Michael Blazer mbla...@satx.rr.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Conformal Coating



The Humiseal product also has a UV indicator in it that glows blue under 
a

black light so you can check coverage.






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[time-nuts] measure zero beat

[Lee Mushel]

David,

I haven't been following this thread so I suppose it has already been 
answered, but how are you measuring zero beat?


Lee Mushel
- Original Message - 
From: David I. Emery d...@dieconsulting.com
To: j...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Oh dear



On Mon, May 07, 2012 at 08:28:41AM -0700, J. Forster wrote:

A crummy crystal oscillator zero beated to WWV is good to 1 in 10E6, a Rb
disciplined to GPS maybe 1 in 10E11.

Do you seriously think you, or anybody, can hear a pitch difference of
0.001 Hz in the audio range?

A quartz crystal is plenty good for any audio application, IMO.

-John



I completely agree, and far more significant than accuracy
is jitter (phase noise) in maybe the tenths of a Hz to thousands  of Hz
area.   This does modulate the sampled sound and perhaps is perceptable
at very low levels.

BUT Cesium, or Rb buys nothing in respect to phase noise
in those ranges... really good quality quartz oscillators have much better
close in phase noise than many Rb's or Cesiums...

What Cesium and Rb buy is good performance measured over much
larger taus... which cannot possibly have any impact on human hearing.



--
 Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493

An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - 
in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now 
either.



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Re: [time-nuts] Antenna restrictions [was Lucent 40 dB Antenna]

[Lee Mushel]

I have to compliment you on this idea!  And I have been hiding/protecting 
electrical stuff inside PVC for 40 years.


But planning ahead is better.   In 1973 for our vacation time  I deposited 
wife and sons with in-laws and went hunting for land.   Bought this place 
for vacation land and retirement.  Spent $350/acre for 65 acres.  Retirement 
is now here.   I have 13 acre former corn field hill top for antennas and 
paid taxes for what the Dept. of Revenue says is now worth $3,500/acre. 
Since I was smart enough to choose a chronically depressed area cost of 
living is about as low as you can get in the northern tier of states.   And 
I don't have to worry about hiding my GPS antenna!  I only wish I had 
started buying more numismatic gold earlier!


If you have children, warn them now!

Lee Mushel


- Original Message - 
From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Antenna restrictions [was Lucent 40 dB Antenna]


On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 11:01 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com 
wrote:





Esteemed Time-nutters

The religious answer.

1.  Install antenna in as inconspicuous location as possible.



A GPS timing antenna should fit INSIDE a 4 plumbing vent.  The ABS 
plastic

pipe will not effect the GPS signals.  Some houses will have a 4 vent
pipe, most will be smaller but it is easy to slip a larger diameter pipe
over a small one.  Buy a 30 inch length of 4 black ABS drain pipe and
simply drop it on to of any smaller vent pipe.  No one would ever notice
and your plumbing system will not notice either.


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Thoughts on lightning protection measures....

[Lee Mushel]

Chuck,

You and Atilla must be right!   when the basement for my home was dug I 
pounded in four standard eight foot plated ground rods horizontally just a 
few inches above the concrete footing which means they're down nearly six 
feet.   I happen to respect a lot of the ideas of my maternal grandfather so 
I also have what might be called a classic lightning rod system with 
appropriate ground rods.   While I do not claim to have some of the 
suggested elements of a ground field I do have more than 20 additional 
grounding points that accompany my ham radio antennas.  And I learned about 
the wisdom of having home perimeter grounding too late to install that but 
all wiring in the house is metallic: EMT, greenfield or BX.   So I think I 
have some elements of that as well.  Anyway, while my neighbors, also living 
on the hill, have lost numerous TV sets, etc. I have never had a single loss 
to what I could plainly see was lightning.   Even though a tree less than 30 
feet from the house took a direct strike which killed the tree!  Whenever 
the power company appears for whatever reason they always check my ground. 
They haven't complained yet!


No, I'm no fool, when a storm is predicted or I hear the first faint thunder 
rumble all antennas and sensitive stuff power is disconnected.  I've seen 
pieces of homes disappear when Old Mother Nature uses that particularly 
destructive tool of hers!


Lee Mushel   K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thoughts on lightning protection measures






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Re: [time-nuts] Holy cesium clock, Batman!

[Lee Mushel]

I am puzzled by this thread.   In front of me on one side of the TV are 
three big ben alarm clocks.   Two are quite old and one is a less than one 
year old Chinese knock-off.   On the other side of the screen is my 
treasured 1960's Atmos which I think is in need of a re-charge.  I am happy 
just as long as I see movement in that case.   Behind me is a grandmother 
clock that I built in the 70's and which has a quite new German movement. 
It is off by one hour since that can be blamed on daylight savings time. 
None of these clocks display the correct time.  I no longer bother to wear a 
wrist watch.


I watch how complex all of your lives are and I can honestly say that I sit 
in retirement completely content and happy with my clocks.  I suspect I am 
more lordly than most of you!


Lee A. Mushel
- Original Message - 
From: Javier Herrero jherr...@hvsistemas.es

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Holy cesium clock, Batman!



El 09/04/2012 16:59, Tom Knox escribió:


I have heard  the definition of a Time Lord is someone who has more 
then one clock and still knows what time it is.


Thomas Knox


No, no, is someone who know what time it is without needing a clock :)

Regards,

Javier

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Re: [time-nuts] establishing your position w/o gps

[Lee Mushel]

If you're looking for a really interesting topic to read about, the 
development of an accurate ship-board clock is really fascinating!   And it 
wasn't done overnight!


Lee  K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] establishing your position w/o gps



On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 3:16 AM, Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:04:08 +
Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote:

In message 20120124115848.312d60bd4fccce4f3e71c...@kinali.ch, Attila 
Kinali w

rites:

All this talk about telling the time using stars or the sun made me 
wonder

how did people tell what position their telescopes had back in the days
before GPS?


Sailingships and trade was what pushed this. 




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Re: [time-nuts] metric / English

[Lee Mushel]

Chris,

You must be kidding!   How old are you?

Lee  K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] metric / English



 But are people still using these old machines for production work?


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] metric / English

[Lee Mushel]

You might want to consider the possibility that there is a whole world of 
manufacturing that does not deal with millions of a single item.   And 
prototypes are not part of the process.  When a product life might extend 
over ten years and you can expect to get orders for two or three per year 
(you know there are products  that cost tens of millions of dollars)  then 
high volume is of much less interest.   Of course, a single part might 
require a five axis machine and then things are again different.  I vividly 
recall one sales visit  when I was only 35 or 40, and still hadn't learned 
anything, and found that a very familiar product was still being 
manufactured in a room with a dirt floor.


Lee
- Original Message - 
From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] metric / English



The manual machines are still in use for limited production runs,
such as are used in prototype manufacture.

Screw machines, and second op lathes see extensive use in
manufacturing because they are quicker than CNC machines...
that and very cheap to use.

I use manual machines because it is quicker to whittle out a prototype
chassis or do-dad on manual machines than it is to do a formal
CAD drawing, and then work out the tool paths to do it on a CNC
machine... and then find you have made it a mistake... wash rinse
repeat...  CNC machines are like printers.  In theory they save
time and materials, but in practice, they can burn time and waste
materials like no human running a manual machine ever would.

[As a tree farmer, who sells trees into pulp production, computers
and printers have been a godsend.  More trees go into paper
production today then ever did before the advent of the paperless
office.]

-Chuck Harris

Chris Albertson wrote:

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 4:48 AM, Chuck Harriscfhar...@erols.com  wrote:

Which works very well, but unlike all of the English
thread combinations, you must keep the lathe's half-nuts
engaged to the lead screw ALWAYS.  That means when you reach
the end of the thread, you must stop the lathe, and back
it up to the beginning of the thread to make the next cut.


That method always works.  But another might.  There will always be
some integer number of pitches that get you back exactly without
error.  But it might be say 5 inches back so there is almost always a
way to run only forward you method might be the best.

But are people still using these old machines for production work?


Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,

[Lee Mushel]

Indeed, Francis!   My first university level professor of mathematics was an 
Iranian and we have been teaching their students for more than a half 
century!   They ain't dumb!


73

Lee  K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Francis Grosz fgr...@otiengineering.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The GPS navigation is the weakest point,


 We forget this at our peril.


Francis







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Re: [time-nuts] Am I the only Time Nut who doesn't wear a watch?

[Lee Mushel]

Javier shouldn't have been surprised!   This level of understanding from the 
so-called smartest people who have ever lived, is quite common.   Not too 
long ago I was checking the references of a young man who had just earned a 
master's degree in mechanical engineering.   I was assured by one of his 
professors that you can ask him to do just about anything.   And when 
asked to analyze deflection of a beam he presented me with an 18 page 
mathematical analysis.  A few weeks later I found him in the tool room with 
a puzzled expression on his face.   Do you have a question?   Lee, how do 
they put threads on the inside of a hole?


Lee   (the person who does have an HP3801 but who uses the average presented 
by three Big Ben Alarm clocks for working time)
- Original Message - 
From: bownes bow...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Am I the only Time Nut who doesn't wear a watch?


I'd love to find a Smiths analogue clock to match the gauges in the dash 
of my old British car!




On Jul 16, 2011, at 10:56, Michael Poulos poulo...@gmail.com wrote:


On 7/10/2011 5:04 AM, Javier Herrero wrote:
My car has an interior look similar to this: 
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Jaguar_XKR_Convertible_interior.jpg/800px-Jaguar_XKR_Convertible_interior.jpg


Time ago, I pick a young engineer (quite digitally oriented, may I say) 
to go somewhere. He saw the three gauges in the central console (oil 
pressure, analog clock, and battery), pointed to the center one (the 
clock) and asked me: and what does this one measures?


I was quite surprised by the question... :)

Put that bloke in the engineroom of a ship and he'd be COMPLETELY lost 
looking at the dash. :)


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Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared goes Global...

[Lee Mushel]

Yes, but people are awfully dumb!  They have no idea what you are talking 
about.   They buy Kindles and watch movies on screens less than 60 inch 
diagonal measurement using sound systems that produce nothing but noise. 
They don't buy newspapers and never give a thought to the fact that unless 
their information is printed, it can be changed at will to suit any need 
required by people who are smarter than they are.  We won't even mention 
what they do in the privacy of the voting booth!   And I weep when I see 
those photos of great people who give their lives so that I can continue to 
live as I want.   And, no, I didn't lose a cent during this latest economic 
madness which I'm sure is promoted by those who measure time in pips..


Lee Mushel
- Original Message - 
From: J. Forster j...@quik.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lightsquared goes Global...



If over-the-air TV were abolished, that would leave all broadcast media in
the hands of Comcast and Verizon and their $100+ charges.

It amounts to a communication tax on the entire population.

-John

=







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Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

[Lee Mushel]

Well, I guess my response to your invitation to comment won't be any worse 
than pip time.   I live in a rural area where this so-called stray 
voltage was a problem for years.   I guess no real electrician ever said 
anything because everyone was certain that a solution to such an obvious 
problem would be known to everyone tomorrow.   But it never happened! 
And this so-called mystery went on for years!   And one day I got a phone 
call from my neighbor, horse Bob saying that his horses couldn't drink 
from the water tank.   He was certain that they were receiving a shock as 
soon as their noses touched the water.


I went down to his paddock and installed enough grounds to overcome the 
general lack of such on his property and then went home.   The horses were 
drinking normally.   A couple of hours later he called and said the problem 
is back.   A puzzled me went for another visit and discovered that he had 
removed all of my grounding provisions.   When I asked him why he had done 
that I was informed that those wires and rods are unsightly.


Lee   K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Robert LaJeunesse rlajeune...@sbcglobal.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party


Hmmm. The Single Wire Earth Return scheme seems like a great cause for 
the

stray voltage that affects farmers:

http://articles.ky3.com/2011-03-18/stray-voltage_29143748





From: Eric Garner garn...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:54:32 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

Did it sound like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
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