You could also run Lady Heather on a PI with NTP and select one of the zoomed
full screen clock displays (analog watch or digital clock).
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
Well, no. Green laser pointers convert a rather high power 800 nm laser to
1600 nm in one crystal then divide it to 533 nm in another one. The physics
and manufacturing of them is best described as black magic. They are cheap
because China developed the process to grow the crystals in bulk
There is a guy selling some (5) PRS-10's on Ebay for $170. Says pulled from
decommissioned systems, but sold for parts. No telling if they are any
good... They are listed as being "used" and not "for parts"... which I think
means Ebay says you can return them.
That is exactly what it should be doing... it shows the time of arrival of the
receiver time message is varying by around a millisecond.
---
> However, when entering this command the three
millisecond digits do appear but only alternate back and forth every
several seconds between
The typical receiver default self-surveys of 30 minutes to 2 hours are not
ideal. They will not include a lot of satellites or the effects of multi-path
over time. A survey of at least 12 hours is needed to include all the sats.
24-48 hours is even better.
The effects of things like
The tripod is a survey grade tripod on a limestone terrace (in a horrible
location for an antenna).
Heather's precision survey uses the receiver's reported position data. It
does not take advantage of carrier phase/pseduorange/doppler data and
post-processing. Unlike the simple averaging
I did Lady Heather's 48-hour precision survey on an NVS-08 receiver and
collected RINEX data at the same time. The NVS was tracking GPS and SBAS
satellites.
The RINEX result had lat/lon/alt error estimates of .175/.153/.396 meters.
The difference between Heather's precision survey results and
As far as I'm concerned anything that you can do to improve the position
accuracy, environmental changes, noise environment, etc is a good thing.
Minimizing errors and disturbances can't hurt and may even improve things. How
much any improvement provides ... ??? But time nuts tend to
I did a test on a 1 second vs a stripped out 10 second rate from the same 24
hour run. The differences were down in the noise. Some people have actually
reported slightly better results with 30 second vs 1 second data... but I
doubt that... I suspect they used different data sets and the
I haven't done any extensive testing of how accurate the results are, but
comparing them to the position produced by a L1/L2 (error ellipses < 50mm) they
seem to be correct.
One issue to be aware of is that some receivers want altitude in othometric
height (MSL) and others use geoid (GPS)
Well, with a little prodding and help from Magnus, I now have the Trimble
devices outputting RINEX files. They have pseudorange, doppler, and signal
strength observations. A 5 hour 1Hz run was sent to CSRS-PPP and the
lat/lon/alt error ellipses were in the 250/250/700 mm range... that
I repeated the two-receiver test, this time comparing 10 hours of 1 Hz
measurements from an LEA-4T with NVS-08C measurments. The NVS has higher
resolution RAW data measurements. But, again, the differences in the error
ellipses were in the 2-4 mm range.
I did another test to see if the M8T offered any positioning advantage over the
old (and cheap) LEA-4T and LEA-5T devices. I drove the M8T and LEA-4T with
the same antenna, collected data for 12 hours, beamed the RINEX files to
Canada.
The results matched to within 3mm... so, again, the
Ok, I did the experiment. I took an 8 hour M8T RINEX file with
GPS,SBAS,GLONASS,GALILEO data in it. I then used to TEQC to extract GPS only
and GLONASS only data (CSRS-PPP ignores SBAS and GALILEO data). The 95%
confidence error ellipse estimates ("rapid" orbits) were:
GPS+GLONASS:lat
I finally got in the Ublox M8T and have been testing its RAW data measurements
(carrier phase / pseudorange / dopper) data by having Lady Heather write a
RINEX file and sending it to CSRS-PPP.
Collecting GPS, SBAS, GLONAS, and GALILEO data (CSRS-PPP ignores GALILEO and
BEIDOU data) for 2 hours
I have it working now.The problem was the way I was interpreting the
satellite system gnssid:svid values in the RAWX message. Basically the data
for all the sat systems were being mapped to GPS prns.
Heather has a command for configuring which GNSS constellations that you want
to use.
I recently got in a Ublox M8T board in from CSGSHOP. The M8T supposedly
outputs raw measurements (carrier phase, pseudorange, doppler) for all the sat
systems it supports, but I am only getting raw measurements for GPS and SBAS...
no Glonass or Galaileo.Any ideas why? Has anybody gotten
A related question is: Do you use positive or negative numbers to set the
antenna cable delay value? Again, most GPS receiver documentation does not
say.I think that I've only seen it explicitly mentioned in the Trimble
documentation and the Oscilloquartz Star-4 documentation.
Also there
One thing to look out for when messing with sawtooth messages is the question
of does the message come out before or after the PPS pulse... good look
finding the answer in the receiver documentation...
"After" seems to be the most common answer. That makes hardware/delay line
compensation
Yes, the Ublox sends ps... whatever software that is processing the message is
scaling it wrong. And labeling it wrong... qErr:-0.00105210 ps... that
aint' right... no way... no how..
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To
It looks like you have slipped a decimal point somewhere (also that "ps" label
is wrong). I have an M8N running here and the report sawtooth errors are all
within a +/- 10 ns span. (and LEA-5T is +/- 5ns).
---
> Class: TIM(0xd) ID: TP(0x1), len: 0x10
Lady Heather can configure the various time pulse / PPS outputs on the Ublox
receivers. (P keyboard menu) If the receiver supports sawtooth data, the
current sawtooth value will be shown at the top of the screen (second column).
It can also be shown in the plot area (GD will toggle the
I think what Gary really wants is a GPS receiver with the most stable PPS
output available. That is probably the Furuno GT-8736... 1.7 nsec sawtooth
error. Typical PPS span is +/- 4 nsec. Also, the Trimble Thunderbolt has 0
sawtooth error.
___
The sawtooth value is in the 0x0D-0x01 (TIM-TP) message. Third value, called
qErr. 32-bit dword. In picoseconds.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow
Most of the post-processing services use reference stations that are surveyed
and verified to mm level accuracy. The 13 reference stations used by AUSPOS
were uncertainties all less than 4/4/8 mm. Unfortuenatly some of the
baselines were rather long.
My antenna is swimming in multi-path and
The main significant difference between the M8N and M8T is the fact that the
M8T can output raw data (and sawtooth). The hardware is the same so there
should not be much difference PPS wise between the two.
I have Lady Heather's RINEX writer working pretty well. Tested with the
Well, not strictly L1. I have a 58517A connected to an Ashtech Z12. It
does report good signal levels on the L2 data (same range as the L1 signals)...
but the Z12 L2 results are rather noisy and I don't get a very accurate
solution.
Also the '517A does seem to work OK with Galileo and
I was losing messages for up to 4 seconds on some of the receivers (ResT?) so I
commented out that message request. I need to go back and do some tests to
see which ones are actually affected.
---
> By "hosing" do you mean that you lose messages for the next second? That
was
Many thanks Peter for confirming what I suspected. The problem with the
Trimble receivers is that requesting the satellite C/A code data can hose up a
lot of them. So, I'm stuck with calculating the integer number of
milliseconds. How to do that? I do know my position to a few feet.
I
The Trimble Thunderbolt has a message (0x5A) that outputs raw receiver
measurement data. One value is "code phase" (along with PRN, sample length,
sig level, dopple, and time-of-measurement). This is a single precision
floating point number in units of 1/16 of a chip. Does anybody know how
Lasy Heather can read a receiver data capture file as a "simulation" file. Use
the /rs=filename command line option. You can also specify the /0 command
line option (don't use serial port) and /rx= command line option to specify the
receiver type. The simulation file reads in at around
The "new" Z12 from Ebay came in today. Works fine (except bad memory backup
batteries). So antenna, power supply, cables are OK. Replacing the memory
backup batteries is fairly easy, except for the gazillion and three screw to
open it up. A pair of memory batteries costs around $15.
I
Does anybody know how Ublox maps their reported PRNs for Galileo and Beidou
satellites to the true satellite PRNs. What little there is on the web
appears on the web is rather incorrect.
For Galileo I have seen Ublox PRNs from 212 to 240. That seems to imply it
might be ACTUAL =
Antenna is good... it is feeding an HP amplified splitter which goes to 7 other
receivers.
And yes, it died in the middle of a run.
I have another Z12 coming from Ebay...
--
> Rats. Is the antenna known to be good? Is the Z12 providing bias on the
antenna cable? Did the Z12
I have Lady Heather's RINEX writer working fairly well. Handles GPS and
GLONASS (should also do Galileo when the M8T comes in from Germany... was "in
stock" but it took them over a week to ship it).
I just did a run on the Furuno GT-8736. It only outputs pseudoranges. A 2.5
hour run @ 1Hz
Well, my Z12 stopped tracking sats yesterday. It passes all self-tests. I
then replaced the memory backup batteries... it fixed the bootup error problem,
but still won't track sats.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe,
I just added support for the Z12 to Lady Heather and fired up my Z12 for the
first time in a few years. It powers up in some kind of a weird loopback mode
and you have to reset the receiver memory to get it working.
Does the Z12 have an internal memory backup battery? Mine is currently
Although it does not measure propagation delays, Lady Heather can now estimate
propagation delays. You can enter the lat/lon/alt of the station or specify
the station name. You can enter the ionosphere height, or Heather will
estimate it depending upon the month.
---
>
You could add doppler to the RINEX file. All the receivers with raw messages
seem to output that.
I am playing with the Furuno GT87 output. It does not output carrier phase
data (only pseudorange / doppler / SNR). CSRS-PPP can still process that.
On the first run (3 hours of data,
To give an idea about the possible improvement in antenna location available by
post-processing the data, I first did a 2 hour self-survey and that put the
receiver into position hold mode. Then I collected RINEX data for 16 hours.
The post-processed lat/lon/alt values differed around 1/1/3
Woohoo! Success!I sent a RINEX 2.10 formatted .obs file generated by
Heather from a Ublox 5 to Canada for post-processing. The results matched
those from RTKLIB processing to within 1mm. Oh, and on noth cases the
post-processing used the "emu" orbit info.
I haven't heard back from
The goal is to make it as simple as possible and have Heather do all the
receiver configuring, data capture, and RINEX making... with none of that
tedious mucking about in RTKLIB Currently all I have to do is fire up Heather
and tell it to write a log file with the .obs extension.
I tried submitting Version 3 files to several services... none support Version
3!Heather now creates the uglier/less readable Version 2.10 RINEX,
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
G... Canada lives in the dark ages and does not accept RINEX version 3...
I'm now trying Australia...
Version 3 is cleaner and easier to write than Version 2...
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
For the orbits is says "Precise", so maybe not even the hourly ones. I could
not find any mention of emu, emr, or igs.
Heather can now spit out Rinex 3.02 files (at least for GPS/SBAS sats).I
am currently feeding Heather the .raw capture file I sent to Canada and
outputting a RINEX .OBS
Well, I processed the Lady Heather .raw capture file from the $24 LEA-5T
through RTKCONV and submitted it to CSRS-PPP and it worked. Using the less
precise instant orbits it says the 95% sigma errors are: lat: 0.169m
lon:0.148m alt: 0.399m
My antenna is that Chinese L1/L2/Glonass/etc
There are some sellers on Ebay LEA-5T receivers on Ebay for cheap. They are
pin and layout compatible with the Trimble Resolution-T devices. I bought a
couple from this guy ($24 each) and they do output the RAW and SFRB messages.
He also has LEA-4T and Trimble boards. There are also other
I added some debug log info that shows how many bytes the receiver sent between
time messages. The LEA-6T sends around 500-600 bytes every second. That fits
easily into 9600 baud. The M8N tracking all sats and with all the raw
messages enabled spews around 4000 bytes. That would require
Heather now requests the RAW and RAWX messages... those output carrier phase,
doppler, and pseudo ranges.The M8N does not support either, but the M8T
supports RAWX.
Heather now requests the SFRB and SFRBX messages... those output the satellite
navigation messages. All the M8's output
I once spent way too much time trying to get Heather to spit out a RINEX file
from a Thunderbolt. I could never get any of the post-processors to accept
it. The Thunderbolt's raw data needs to somehow be tweaked to be compatible
and I didn't really know what I was doing.
A LEA-6T seems to
Coincidentally, yesterday I tweaked up Lady Heather's Ublox code to enable all
of the necessary raw data messages. Heather also enables the raw messages from
Trimble TSIP speaking receivers, the NVS CSM24 receiver, and the Furuno GT87
receiver (if baud rate is >=115200).
Heather can write a
You will probably have a some difficulty finding a surveyor that does
geodetic/mm accuracy surveys. Most surveyors that use GPS seem to work down
to inches/a few cm.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
I don't know if you can easily see earth tides with a GPS... the
post-processing services usually filter and correct them out.
But, Lady Heather v6 can model and plot them (as lat/lon/alt displacements in
mm). Also the vertical component of the gravity offset (in ugals)
Lady Heather v6 supports the TAPR TICC. It has most of the functionality of
Timelab (but not as pretty), runs on Linux,etc, and can process both channel
s(actually 4 channels if you have two TICCs). You can use it either as the
main input device or as an auxiliary input device in
When in was developing Lady Heather's precision survey code I was comparing the
calculated positions to those from an Ashtech Z12 dual freq GPS (with the
position calculated by OPUS). Using the same survey grade antenna and a
Thunderbolt the results were usually within a meter. I have not
Single isotope diamond is 50% better thermal conductivity of normal diamond.
It has been used in laser optics and thermal transfer applications
(semiconductor heatsinks). I think the highest reported thermal transfer rate
used isotopically pure diamond etched with micro-fluidic channels
I'm not sure if Heather v5 works with all of those those receivers (I think you
have what us known as a "UCCM" receiver... these are pulls from telecom
equipment). If you are on Windows, you might want to try the v6 Beta code.
Install the v5 from ke5fx.com, then download the v6 .exe from
Note that on a lot of GPS devices that only one edge of the 1PPS pulse is
stable and the other edge can jitter a bit.
Also, you might want to try programming the PPS to a 50% duty cycle (but having
an asymmetrical PPS pulse might have some advantages for post processing).
The receiver with the
Lady Heather will write raw data capture files from any of the devices that it
supports. It can also read them in as a simulation file (except for "polled"
receivers where you have to explicitly poll the receivers for each piece of
data you want... the polling queries are not written to the
SS is signal strength. CN is carrier to noise ratio. They basically indicate
the same thing, but their scale may be different. You can't compare the
absolute magnitude of the values from different types of receivers, only do
relative comparisons. Other receivers can report dBc, etc.
By comparing how much the DAC voltage changed with temperature. Heather can
calculate the OCXO EFC sensitivity (Hz/volt). Combine that with the DAC
setting and you get Hz/degree.
---
> How did you measure temperature sensitivity
I replaced the OCXO on one of my Thunderbolts with an Oscilloquartz 8663 and
the temperature sensitivity went down by about 2/3, so I always assumed the
main contributor was the OCXO. I didn't try mod-ing any other Tbolts.
I also tried temperature stabilizing the power supply and it seemed
Digital temperature sensors have some advantages (like nice factory
calibration), but also so issues. The IIC/SPI ones need to be mounted to a
PCB and also have quite a bit of thermal mass. They also need 4-6 wire cables.
They are hard to attach directly to a point that you want to
Long ago I did a board for evaluating high power LEDs and drivers. Iit was
called Luxor and if you look through the Lady Heather code, you will see
references to it. It has all the functionality (and them some) needed for an
environmental sensor and temperature controller.
It has 4 dual
I looked at the TEMPer devices, but almost all of them seem to be HID devices
that emulate a digi-monkey typing on a keyboard... tis' not something Heather
wants to work with. Also, none of them seem to do air pressure. They do have
a device that does temperature and humidity and can emulate
Lady Heather has a very nice temperature control PID in it (designed by Warren
Sarkisen). It was originally designed to stabilize the temperature of a
Thunderbolt GPSDO. The standard Thunderbolt OCXO is rather temperature
sensitive.
The standard/simple implementation involves sticking the
The TICC is a very nice device. A LOT of bang for the buck.Highly
recommended.
Lady Heather supports it (you can actually connect two for 4 channel operation)
and can run under Linux. It provides most of the basic functionality of
Timelab (with less pretty plots).
I recently (mostly) finished adding external environmental sensor support to
Lady Heather. You can use the sensor as the primary "receiver" device or in
conjunction with any of the "receivers" that Lady Heather supports (except
currently the HP-5071A which uses the same plot queue entries as
And you want your semiconductors to be in ceramic/lided packages with the bond
wires flapping in free air. Bond wires embedded in epoxy like to break...
don't ask how I found this out ;-) ... it brings back bad memories... and
makes bad memories... Quantum chips have very
Here's a local guy's take on monitoring time and DST errors on the stations in
the Dallas area:
http://home.earthlink.net/~schultdw/atsc/
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
I read that there is a requirement that the time data in the PSIP data stream
has to be within one second.
I have an over-the-air DVR that would mess up the time and recordings because
it was originally not filtering the times the stations broadcast. They
finally modified the DVR firmware
I was measuring the jitter and adevs of the PPS signal from a GT-8736. GPS
only seems to be slightly better (1-3 ns more span) than GPS+GLONASS. GLONASS
only seems have around 50% more jitter than GPS only. Glonaas only adevs are 3
times as large as GPS only (at tau=1 seconds).
Ooops, that should have been /b=2 to select the European time zone rule!
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
Try:
/b=1 (sets European time change rule)
/tz=0GMT/BST (sets time zone offset and names... and thats the number 0,
not the letter O)
It should then automatically switch between the time and time zone names
according to the rule. For non-standard places, you can
Or on the GPS/GNSS signals... I was verifying Lady Heather's support for the
old SV6/Palisade/Acutime receivers and came across a mention of the "GPS System
Message" command. It is requested by TSIP packet 0x28 and returns packet
0x48. Newer Trimble receivers (like the Resolution-T don't
I can confirm that they work well on Glonass and Beidou. I have not tried
them on my Z12 with L2 signals.
Last night a big lightning strike across the street took out a tree. Antenna
survived without damage, but my antenna is on a 3 foot tripod on the ground...
it was quite a
Thanks, excellent code to do the fixup on Arduinos, etc. Heather already has
Julian <-> Gregorian routines that use double precision numbers and allows
date/time tweaks to millisecond levels, so I used those.
I am modifying the rollover adjustment code to not latch onto a specific
rollover
Lady Heather's automatic rollover fixer works by looking at the year in any
time message that it sees. If it sees 10 consecutive year values less than
2016, it assumes the receiver has rollover issues and then adds 1024 weeks
worth of seconds to the Julian date/time calculated from the
When I dumped the flash rom from one of the TruePosition units, we found a
couple of commands that seem related to OCXO learning. They are discussed a
little in the thread on EEVBLOG.
> If you *do* go swapping around OCXO’s (or whatever) on a GPSDO board,
it’s very nice to
The magic word is $PROCEED.
There is quite a bit of info about these on eevblog.com
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/gpsdo-loss-of-satellitesfix-troubleshooting/
Lady Heather v6 Beta supports these. If you have v5 installed from ke5fx.com,
you can get the .exe for v6 from here or if you
The TICC reference is a HP-5071A cesium beam oscillator with high performance
tube. The GT-87 is connected to the TICC channel B input. The TICC is running
in timestamp mode.
The orange plot is the Time Interval Error of the 1PPS signal... the difference
between 1 second and the measured
I re-confgured the GT-87 to just use GPS satellites (the posted data had GPS,
SBAS, and GLONASS enabled). The 1PPS span was mostly +/- 2.5 ns, with a few
excursions to the +/- 3.5 ns range.
I'll try GLONASS only next.
I looks like Furuno is not going to add Galileo support to the GT-87
I kludged up a very simple power line interface (3VAC transformer -> 10K
resistor -> diode -> PICPET) and fed the (unfiltered) output into a PICPET.
The PICPET was clocked using a 10 MHz TTL oscillator. I used Lady Heather to
capture and analyze the data. It was measuring the time interval
Lady Heather v6 now supports the PICPET. I don't think it would like a 60 Hz
input, though. When testing receivers with a high navigation rate (like over
20 Hz) it gets overwhelmed processing the data stream and updating the screen.
It might work with the PICPET since the sole message that
The GT80 is a family of devices including the 8031 and 8037. Perhaps posting
a picture would help.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the
I don't know which receiver is in the GPS-4. Open yours up and take a peek...
I do know the GPS-4 uses $PFEC commands. I have a 8031 and Lady Heather
works with it. I have an 8037, but don't know what command set it uses... yet.
---
> Would these other modules be
There are Furuno GT-8031's and GT-8037's listed on Ebay for cheap-ish. Tge
8031 is a small (around 1x1") module with an antenna pigtail with a H.FL
connector on it. The 8037 looks like a Motoroa M12 board with a MMCX
connector.
___
time-nuts
A more detailed explanation of what is happening:
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/ovens-across-europe-display-the-wrong-time-due-to-a-serbia-kosovo-grid-dispute/
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
I once looked into adding IRIG generation to Lady Heather. I never came up
with a reliable / robust way to do it. It could possibly be done with some of
the Windows multi-media support, but that would leave the Linux/macOS/FreeBSD
people in the dark.
I just added TS2100 support to Lady
A friend of mine is a product engineer for one of the largest (the largest?)
makers of RTC chips. He groans about the (rather pointless) quest for the
lowest power RTC chips. Making robust, stable, accurate oscillators that run
at nanowatts is a losing proposition. At those levels external
Probably 20+ years for a lithium coin cell... basically the shelf life of the
cell. I have a card of 24 year old CR-2032's that are still above 3V, and no
sign of leakage.
BTW, never handle a coin cell (particularly in watch applications) with your
fingers... your grubby fingerprints are
Sparkfun is selling an interesting RTC clock chip board. It draws 22 nA. It
has a rather novel clock generator... a tuning fork crystal disciplines an RC
oscillator every few minutes. They claim 3 minutes per year drift.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/14642
I'm not sure what the Z3801A uses for EFC range. Heather uses the EFC
relative command to report the EFC setting. That command reports values from
-100% to 100%. There is a command that reports the DAC input in counts, but
nothing documented that shows volts/count.
Since the DAC is at -2V
First check for power / ground shorts on the power supply outputs with an ohm
meter. There is a good chance of a shorted tantalum cap somewhere in the
system shutting down the supply. If the power supply is connected to the
system via a connector, disconnect it from the system and see if
Or, it you are sure it's the OCXO, go shopping for a new one.There is a
reputable seller with them (the double oven version) for $100 on Ebay.
A couple of things to try... monitor the EFC voltage, power up the unit, and
see if it is changing as it attempts to lock. If it does not, you
I've been known to use the egg timer mode in the kitchen... I get distracted
easily and burned food has been known to occur. Due to system vagaries, it is
probably only accurate to say 30 milliseconds (better on Linux, of course), so
less than perfect eggs are possible. I've thought about
The university that I hang out at has a clock tower with a full set of bells.
Several years ago the tower and bells were restored, at hefty expense. But,
alas, some no-goodnik neighbors objected to the sound, so they cut back the use
of the clock. I don't know what system they use to get
> I can´t find this option - I can toggle the PPS output, but not the input.
OK, I remember now... the X72/SA22 with firmware disciplining have a bit in
the control reg that reports if a PPS input has been seen. I found some
obscure reference that implied you could disable the PPS input, but
Oops... I checked and the Z38xx devices don't have a DAC setting command. It
was the UCCM GPSDOs that have a SCPI command for controlling the DAC manually,
-
> When I press "D" Lady Heather replies:
Manual disciplining not supported by this receiverpress ESC
Lady Heather has a command that lets you set the DAC voltage. It's in the "D"
menu. Depending upon the firmware, you may need to disable disciplining first
(also in the "D" menu). If the DAC command works to change the OCXO freq,
the osc EFC and DAC are probably OK. If it does not, I'd
1 - 100 of 1485 matches
Mail list logo
