Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:27:32 -0400, John Ackermann N8UR wrote: It works well, but one thing that annoys me is a flicker on the screen at fast (less than a few microsecond) sweep speeds. I emailed Rigol US about it, but never had a response so don't know if it's normal or not. My Tek 2012 (almost identical form factor as the Rigol, by the way) doesn't show the flicker. That flicker is a known issue with one of the firmware revisions. Solutions exists on eevblog. I have 2 rigols 50Mhz (ds1052e) 100Mhz (ds1102e), and a TEK TDS-320. After i got the rigols , i hardly ever turn on the TEK. (Earprotection required when the TEK is on , and i just turn it on if i doubt the rigols , witch has been wrong until now). I like the rigols , and after it became publicly known that the 50Mhz and the 100Mhz was same hardware. Rigol dropped the price on the ds1102e , to around +50$ , compared to the ds1052e. The ds1052e was limited to 50Mhz by it's model number in the firmware , but 2 simple commands via USB or RS-232. Would change the model serial number , and on next boot you had a 1102e. Rigol has tried to prevent that in newer firmwares , but the guys at eevblog keeps modding firmwares , so you're allowed to downgrade to the version that can change the model SN. That said , today i'd prob. pay the +50$ for an original 100Mhz. On the More expensive scopes , i have seen several. Choosing Hameg scopes instead of HP , due to function prices. http://jeelabs.org/2011/12/21/getting-an-oscilloscope-part-2/ http://jeelabs.org/2011/12/22/my-scope-story-conclusion/ http://jeelabs.org/2012/04/06/hameg-scope-update/ CFO - Tnut Beginner Denmark ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
Must be the reason behind the puzzling menus of Microsoft Office 2007 and up... Everything requires one or two more clicks than the 2003 vintage. Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: Scott McGrath scmcgr...@gmail.com Sender: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 19:33:36 To: j...@quikus.comj...@quikus.com; Discussion of precise time and frequencymeasurementtime-nuts@febo.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT) Chinese scopes and menus In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to memorize menu selections which are deeply nested And many asian designs actually increase the number of menus to cater to this Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2012, at 11:03 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables. Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? -John On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments, because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets more than the maker. To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity. I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the Fluke is very good. Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply. I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok. (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator) To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed you should enjoy doing it!) Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:42:31 + li...@lazygranch.com wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I could need a modern DSO as addition to my stone age 2ch 50MHz Tek. But there isn't any usable surplus market in europe and used scopes cost nearly as much as new ones. Ie Tek, Agilent and LeCroy are out of my budget, even if used. But then, i'd rather spend 2000chf on a new Scope than get one for 500 that isn't half usable. Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
What's the quality of those chinese scopes? http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-January/061925.html -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments, because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets more than the maker. To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity. I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the Fluke is very good. Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply. I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok. (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator) To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed you should enjoy doing it!) Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables. Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? -John On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments, because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets more than the maker. To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity. I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the Fluke is very good. Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply. I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok. (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator) To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed you should enjoy doing it!) Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
I have the latest and greatest from both Tek and Agilent at work, designed and made right here in the states. They suffer from menu-itis just like the chinese stuff does. My Tek DSA 72004 at work is a complete PITA to use unless I have the mouse and keyboard attached. In my opinion, it's just how things are in the modern age. -Eric On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:03 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables. Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? -John On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments, because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets more than the maker. To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity. I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the Fluke is very good. Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply. I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok. (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator) To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed you should enjoy doing it!) Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
I was speaking several years ago to someone at Tektronix and asked why they did not still make an analog scope. He told me cost was the reason, simply price; to make a modern version of the 7104 or 2467B would cost nearly as much as an Italian sports car. I have the Latest 40Gs/s scope and it is fantastic but still have a LeCroy LA354 analog (of sorts) scope as a second opinion. All that said, as someone who brokers equipment, it is difficult to justify as a reseller older scopes less the 500MHz in light of the great products coming out of China. Thomas Knox Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:19:58 -0700 From: garn...@gmail.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT) I have the latest and greatest from both Tek and Agilent at work, designed and made right here in the states. They suffer from menu-itis just like the chinese stuff does. My Tek DSA 72004 at work is a complete PITA to use unless I have the mouse and keyboard attached. In my opinion, it's just how things are in the modern age. -Eric On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:03 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables. Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? -John On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments, because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets more than the maker. To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity. I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the Fluke is very good. Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply. I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok. (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator) To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed you should enjoy doing it!) Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
You know, I have a 1Gig Tek digital (DSA602 with 11A72/11A71,11A34) on my bench and a 1G Tek analog (7934). The 7934 never gets fired up anymore. I really should reclaim the space. On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I was speaking several years ago to someone at Tektronix and asked why they did not still make an analog scope. He told me cost was the reason, simply price; to make a modern version of the 7104 or 2467B would cost nearly as much as an Italian sports car. I have the Latest 40Gs/s scope and it is fantastic but still have a LeCroy LA354 analog (of sorts) scope as a second opinion. All that said, as someone who brokers equipment, it is difficult to justify as a reseller older scopes less the 500MHz in light of the great products coming out of China. Thomas Knox Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:19:58 -0700 From: garn...@gmail.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT) I have the latest and greatest from both Tek and Agilent at work, designed and made right here in the states. They suffer from menu-itis just like the chinese stuff does. My Tek DSA 72004 at work is a complete PITA to use unless I have the mouse and keyboard attached. In my opinion, it's just how things are in the modern age. -Eric On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:03 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables. Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? -John On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments, because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets more than the maker. To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity. I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the Fluke is very good. Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply. I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok. (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator) To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed you should enjoy doing it!) Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- --Eric _ Eric Garner ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3 years. In summary, in the = 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but there are better and worse. Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten and Uni-T are consistently rated less. The criteria for rating them are measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech support. Prices vary depending on country, and local support varies. Those differences will help you choose between the better 3 brands. Rigol is consistent in quality all around, but cost more than the others. Rigol is the only maker with scopes that compete with Agilent or Tek, in the 1-4 GHz level. Support is mostly via the sellers. In the USA, Rigol has a subsidiary that provides responsive support. Owon and Hantek offer larger screens, more features and better GUI, but can be plagued with construction flaws. Its acceptable if your seller will exchange any defective units you purhcase. Owon has provided tech and hardware support directly from China, including spares. Atten and Uni-T glitches are concerning, as they tend to provide erratic measurement. At 04:19 04/16/2012, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 7 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:46:27 +0200 From: Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch To: li...@lazygranch.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT) Message-ID: 20120416094627.f245ebdfd5df7305dd528...@kinali.ch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:42:31 + li...@lazygranch.com wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I could need a modern DSO as addition to my stone age 2ch 50MHz Tek. But there isn't any usable surplus market in europe and used scopes cost nearly as much as new ones. Ie Tek, Agilent and LeCroy are out of my budget, even if used. But then, i'd rather spend 2000chf on a new Scope than get one for 500 that isn't half usable. Attila Kinali ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
FWIW the 3000 series Agilents were rebadged Rigols. The newer entry levels to mid-range scopes are now all designed and built by Agilent in their Malaysia plant. At 08:00 04/16/2012, you wrote: -- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:23:08 +0200 From: Andrea Baldoni erm1ea...@ermione.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT) Message-ID: 20120416112308.ga20...@sol.ermione.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments, because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets more than the maker. To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity. I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the Fluke is very good. Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply. I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok. (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator) To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed you should enjoy doing it!) Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
j...@quikus.com said: Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? How much of that is because you want to use fancy features that didn't even exist on older scopes? Here is an example: The switch from small/fast to big/slow memory is buried deep in a menu. That's better than cluttering up the box with another button. My Rigol DS1102E has 6 knobs, 17 dedicated push buttons, and 5 menu buttons. One of the knobs is trigger level. 2 are horizontal scale and position. 2 are vertical scale and position. The 6th knob is for the current menu item. The vertical knobs are shared by both input channels. If you want to adjust the other channel you have to poke a button first. Sure, I'd prefer 2 more knobs. I can live with this. It's not obvious how to fit in 2 more knobs if you did decide that was important. Making the box an inch wider looks like the obvious way. Glancing at my old Tek 465, the thing that I think I would miss most is the AC/DC coupling switch on the input. I won't miss the Focus knob. :) Neither scope has an optional 50 ohm terminator on the inputs. --- I think there are 2 patterns for using a scope. One is chasing a glitch. The other is collecting data. When I'm chasing a glitch, I occasionally have to wander around in the menus. Yes, it's annoying. Part of the problem is that I sometimes don't remember how to get where I want to go so I make a few false starts. Overall, it's not a lot more time than it took me to setup the hardware. (I remember having to find a pair of coax cables with matched length.) It would be fun to hack the firmware to record all the button/knob actions. Once I have things setup, collecting more data is as simple as watching the screen or poking Enter on my PC. -- If you want to be critical, I see two weak areas. One is the documentation and/or firmware for remote control. It's good enough, at least if you are stubborn, but far from good. (I haven't tried their software: no Windows boxes here.) The other is the probes. Good probes are still expensive. The Rigol unit came with old big/clunky probes. Why would anybody want a 1x/10x switch on their probe? (I guess it might be interesting if you were working on small, slow signals, but I haven't done that in a long time.) For probes, there is a knee in the curve somewhere around 200 MHz. With a bit of care, you can get reasonable pictures up through 100 MHz. Beyond that, you have to really pay attention and good/small probes help. They also help with modern surface mount parts. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3 years. In summary, in the = 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but there are better and worse. Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten and Uni-T are consistently rated less. The criteria for rating them are measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech support. Measurement accuracy is a ruse, IMO. I don't care if a 'scope is accurate. I want the waveform to be a faithful representation of the electrical behaviour of the circuit, free oif sampling artifacts and aliasing. If I want to accurately measure a voltage, I'll use a differential comparator or DVM. Anything timing, an appropriately gated counter. Some years ago Tektronix had a digital camera package with RS-170 output and some aardvaark frame grab board for a PC and a SW package. It was designed to do waveform measurement. I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog 'scope is not good enough for what you really do in your lab? The more I hear about 40 GSps or whatever 'scopes, the more I'm convinced it's like comparing car engines or top speed. So, I have a car that'll do 160 MPH and yours will do 172? So what? Can you use it? No. YMMV, -John Prices vary depending on country, and local support varies. Those differences will help you choose between the better 3 brands. Rigol is consistent in quality all around, but cost more than the others. Rigol is the only maker with scopes that compete with Agilent or Tek, in the 1-4 GHz level. Support is mostly via the sellers. In the USA, Rigol has a subsidiary that provides responsive support. Owon and Hantek offer larger screens, more features and better GUI, but can be plagued with construction flaws. Its acceptable if your seller will exchange any defective units you purhcase. Owon has provided tech and hardware support directly from China, including spares. Atten and Uni-T glitches are concerning, as they tend to provide erratic measurement. At 04:19 04/16/2012, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 7 Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:46:27 +0200 From: Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch To: li...@lazygranch.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT) Message-ID: 20120416094627.f245ebdfd5df7305dd528...@kinali.ch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 15 Apr 2012 22:42:31 + li...@lazygranch.com wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I could need a modern DSO as addition to my stone age 2ch 50MHz Tek. But there isn't any usable surplus market in europe and used scopes cost nearly as much as new ones. Ie Tek, Agilent and LeCroy are out of my budget, even if used. But then, i'd rather spend 2000chf on a new Scope than get one for 500 that isn't half usable. Attila Kinali ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
j...@quikus.com said: Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? How much of that is because you want to use fancy features that didn't even exist on older scopes? Older 'scopes didn't NEED to re-allocate memory, or use peak modes to avoid sampling artifacts. Here is an example: The switch from small/fast to big/slow memory is buried deep in a menu. That's better than cluttering up the box with another button. My Rigol DS1102E has 6 knobs, 17 dedicated push buttons, and 5 menu buttons. One of the knobs is trigger level. 2 are horizontal scale and position. 2 are vertical scale and position. The 6th knob is for the current menu item. The vertical knobs are shared by both input channels. If you want to adjust the other channel you have to poke a button first. Sure, I'd prefer 2 more knobs. I can live with this. It's not obvious how to fit in 2 more knobs if you did decide that was important. Making the box an inch wider looks like the obvious way. Glancing at my old Tek 465, the thing that I think I would miss most is the AC/DC coupling switch on the input. I won't miss the Focus knob. :) Neither scope has an optional 50 ohm terminator on the inputs. All Tek 'scopes have AC/DC/GND,and some have trace identify. 50 Ohm is easy with a throughy terminator. -John === --- I think there are 2 patterns for using a scope. One is chasing a glitch. The other is collecting data. When I'm chasing a glitch, I occasionally have to wander around in the menus. Yes, it's annoying. Part of the problem is that I sometimes don't remember how to get where I want to go so I make a few false starts. Overall, it's not a lot more time than it took me to setup the hardware. (I remember having to find a pair of coax cables with matched length.) It would be fun to hack the firmware to record all the button/knob actions. Once I have things setup, collecting more data is as simple as watching the screen or poking Enter on my PC. -- If you want to be critical, I see two weak areas. One is the documentation and/or firmware for remote control. It's good enough, at least if you are stubborn, but far from good. (I haven't tried their software: no Windows boxes here.) The other is the probes. Good probes are still expensive. The Rigol unit came with old big/clunky probes. Why would anybody want a 1x/10x switch on their probe? (I guess it might be interesting if you were working on small, slow signals, but I haven't done that in a long time.) For probes, there is a knee in the curve somewhere around 200 MHz. With a bit of care, you can get reasonable pictures up through 100 MHz. Beyond that, you have to really pay attention and good/small probes help. They also help with modern surface mount parts. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
On 4/16/2012 1:47 PM, Marvin Gozum wrote: At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3 years. In summary, in the= 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but there are better and worse. Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten and Uni-T are consistently rated less. The criteria for rating them are measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech support. Prices vary depending on country, and local support varies. Those differences will help you choose between the better 3 brands. Rigol is consistent in quality all around, but cost more than the others. Rigol is the only maker with scopes that compete with Agilent or Tek, in the 1-4 GHz level. Support is mostly via the sellers. In the USA, Rigol has a subsidiary that provides responsive support. Owon and Hantek offer larger screens, more features and better GUI, but can be plagued with construction flaws. Its acceptable if your seller will exchange any defective units you purhcase. Owon has provided tech and hardware support directly from China, including spares. Atten and Uni-T glitches are concerning, as they tend to provide erratic measurement. I got one of the 50MHz Rigol scopes last year as a toss in when I bought one of their arbs. It works well, but one thing that annoys me is a flicker on the screen at fast (less than a few microsecond) sweep speeds. I emailed Rigol US about it, but never had a response so don't know if it's normal or not. My Tek 2012 (almost identical form factor as the Rigol, by the way) doesn't show the flicker. The other notable thing about the Rigol is that the on-screen text uses that not-very-attractive, Times Roman-ish, serif font that seems ubiquitous in Chinese documentation. Anyone know why they use that versus something more pleasant on the eyes? John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
Interesting read but have not figured out the MIT loran thread part of the header. This is about chinese scopes On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:27 PM, John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com wrote: On 4/16/2012 1:47 PM, Marvin Gozum wrote: At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3 years. In summary, in the= 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but there are better and worse. Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten and Uni-T are consistently rated less. The criteria for rating them are measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech support. Prices vary depending on country, and local support varies. Those differences will help you choose between the better 3 brands. Rigol is consistent in quality all around, but cost more than the others. Rigol is the only maker with scopes that compete with Agilent or Tek, in the 1-4 GHz level. Support is mostly via the sellers. In the USA, Rigol has a subsidiary that provides responsive support. Owon and Hantek offer larger screens, more features and better GUI, but can be plagued with construction flaws. Its acceptable if your seller will exchange any defective units you purhcase. Owon has provided tech and hardware support directly from China, including spares. Atten and Uni-T glitches are concerning, as they tend to provide erratic measurement. I got one of the 50MHz Rigol scopes last year as a toss in when I bought one of their arbs. It works well, but one thing that annoys me is a flicker on the screen at fast (less than a few microsecond) sweep speeds. I emailed Rigol US about it, but never had a response so don't know if it's normal or not. My Tek 2012 (almost identical form factor as the Rigol, by the way) doesn't show the flicker. The other notable thing about the Rigol is that the on-screen text uses that not-very-attractive, Times Roman-ish, serif font that seems ubiquitous in Chinese documentation. Anyone know why they use that versus something more pleasant on the eyes? John __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:59:16 -0700 (PDT) J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog 'scope is not good enough for what you really do in your lab? Well... if i had a 500MHz analog scope, i wouldnt want anything better.. ok, well maybe the storage function of DSO's is nice, but other than that, i don't need much more and for home use i'd be happy with a 500MHz analog... but, the only scope i have is a 2 channel 50MHz one. I definitly could have a use for two more channels and a bit of more bandwidth. The rest is nice to have. Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 17:47:37 + Marvin Gozum marvin.go...@jefferson.edu wrote: At eevblog.com forum Chinese scopes are a daily discussion for over 3 years. In summary, in the = 100 MHz level they are very cost effective but there are better and worse. Rigol, Owon and Hantek are on par while Atten and Uni-T are consistently rated less. The criteria for rating them are measurement accuracy and precision, UI, construction quality and tech support. Thanks! that is the info i was looking for! Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 14:32:07 -0400 paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting read but have not figured out the MIT loran thread part of the header. This is about chinese scopes This is because i forked of the MIT loran thread. Ie i replied to a mail in the MIT loran thread that mentioned chinese scopes. And to make it clear that the discussion isn't about any MIT flea market anymore, i changed the subject. And as it is custom, i left the original subject line enclosed in (was:..) Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
IMO, the place you really need 2-4 channels is logic analyzers, not 'scopes. YMMV, -John On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 10:59:16 -0700 (PDT) J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog 'scope is not good enough for what you really do in your lab? Well... if i had a 500MHz analog scope, i wouldnt want anything better.. ok, well maybe the storage function of DSO's is nice, but other than that, i don't need much more and for home use i'd be happy with a 500MHz analog... but, the only scope i have is a 2 channel 50MHz one. I definitly could have a use for two more channels and a bit of more bandwidth. The rest is nice to have. Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
I just can't help it. I like moving the mouse pointer over the slider and clicking or moving or just typing in a value. My latest scope (Bitscope)is from Australia, cost $250 inflated $ and all functions are done via PC. In addition, there is a dll if I want to roll my own app, and a suite of apps available on a website. The scope occupies as much or as little screen area as i like, the body is a huge 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 x 1/2 inches. I/O (yep, a built-in signal source) for the scope and an 8-channel digital analyzer is via .1 in spaced terminals. Needs some special connectors made for RF, but that is one of the only drawbacks. I've been a knob twiddler for over 50 years now, and USB or 'net test equipment is my current choice. That rant delivered, I admit that I simply do not need test lab or metrological acccuracy, for which one now has to go to RS or maybe Agilent, and pay the price for the additional decimal places. Don Hal Murray j...@quikus.com said: Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? How much of that is because you want to use fancy features that didn't even exist on older scopes? Here is an example: The switch from small/fast to big/slow memory is buried deep in a menu. That's better than cluttering up the box with another button. My Rigol DS1102E has 6 knobs, 17 dedicated push buttons, and 5 menu buttons. One of the knobs is trigger level. 2 are horizontal scale and position. 2 are vertical scale and position. The 6th knob is for the current menu item. The vertical knobs are shared by both input channels. If you want to adjust the other channel you have to poke a button first. Sure, I'd prefer 2 more knobs. I can live with this. It's not obvious how to fit in 2 more knobs if you did decide that was important. Making the box an inch wider looks like the obvious way. Glancing at my old Tek 465, the thing that I think I would miss most is the AC/DC coupling switch on the input. I won't miss the Focus knob. :) Neither scope has an optional 50 ohm terminator on the inputs. --- I think there are 2 patterns for using a scope. One is chasing a glitch. The other is collecting data. When I'm chasing a glitch, I occasionally have to wander around in the menus. Yes, it's annoying. Part of the problem is that I sometimes don't remember how to get where I want to go so I make a few false starts. Overall, it's not a lot more time than it took me to setup the hardware. (I remember having to find a pair of coax cables with matched length.) It would be fun to hack the firmware to record all the button/knob actions. Once I have things setup, collecting more data is as simple as watching the screen or poking Enter on my PC. -- If you want to be critical, I see two weak areas. One is the documentation and/or firmware for remote control. It's good enough, at least if you are stubborn, but far from good. (I haven't tried their software: no Windows boxes here.) The other is the probes. Good probes are still expensive. The Rigol unit came with old big/clunky probes. Why would anybody want a 1x/10x switch on their probe? (I guess it might be interesting if you were working on small, slow signals, but I haven't done that in a long time.) For probes, there is a knee in the curve somewhere around 200 MHz. With a bit of care, you can get reasonable pictures up through 100 MHz. Beyond that, you have to really pay attention and good/small probes help. They also help with modern surface mount parts. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
Alas, those are the UI issues I suggested in my post, fonts is one of them, there aren't any others in the 1000s series. You can change the 'skins' in the utility menu. Fonts are one advantage of Owon or Hantek, plus they offer larger LCDs. The flicker is from the slow sampling rate at slower horizontal time bases. One user actually timed it, here as a pdf: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/rigol-ds1052e-sample-rate-vs-timebase-setting/ FWIW, the human eye can detect 15 fps [ movies are at 24 fps] so the flicker becomes very obvious below 1 ms/div and at higher, it depends on your eyes and if you have fluorescent lighting, which highlights update rate gaps. Another interesting finding is they overclock their DACs, to further shave off on cost. The good news, as shown in multiple tear downs, they use quality electronic components. The only other quibbles are the quality of the plastic in the knobs vary [ some have spontaneously cracked] and a few units have installed rotary encoders dirtier than others; methinks this is the fault of their Chinese subcomponent suppliers. Best Wishes, Marv Gozum, Philadelphia Pa [ sent via Outlook webApp] From: John Ackermann N8UR [j...@febo.com] Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 2:27 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement I got one of the 50MHz Rigol scopes last year as a toss in when I bought one of their arbs. It works well, but one thing that annoys me is a flicker on the screen at fast (less than a few microsecond) sweep speeds. I emailed Rigol US about it, but never had a response so don't know if it's normal or not. My Tek 2012 (almost identical form factor as the Rigol, by the way) doesn't show the flicker. The other notable thing about the Rigol is that the on-screen text uses that not-very-attractive, Times Roman-ish, serif font that seems ubiquitous in Chinese documentation. Anyone know why they use that versus something more pleasant on the eyes? John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
I would actually like to know why many seem to feel that a 500 MHz analog 'scope is not good enough for what you really do in your lab? Older 'scopes didn't NEED to re-allocate memory, or use peak modes to avoid sampling artifacts. I can think of 3 reasons why I like digital scopes: It holds the picture for a long time. This is great for looking at slow/PPS signals and things that happen only occasionally (logic glitches, software bugs). You can see the signal before the trigger. You can get the data out to a PC. Any one of those could be enough to convince me to switch to digital. With all 3, it's a no-brainer. YMMV. I'm sure I'll get burned by an aliasing glitch one of these days. In the meantime, I'll get lots of good pictures. If you want a really good example of aliasing, try this one: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/Rigol/scope-2ms.png That sine wave is10 MHz. :) Since this is time-nuts, you can back compute the frequency of the internal clock in the scope. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2012, at 11:03 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables. Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? -John On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments, because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets more than the maker. To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity. I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the Fluke is very good. Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply. I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok. (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator) To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed you should enjoy doing it!) Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
Chinese scopes and menus In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to memorize menu selections which are deeply nested And many asian designs actually increase the number of menus to cater to this Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2012, at 11:03 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables. Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? -John On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments, because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets more than the maker. To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity. I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the Fluke is very good. Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply. I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok. (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator) To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed you should enjoy doing it!) Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
Ah! That explains inscruitable VCR menus. -John === Chinese scopes and menus In modern asian culture it's a highly valued skill to be able to memorize menu selections which are deeply nested And many asian designs actually increase the number of menus to cater to this Sent from my iPhone On Apr 16, 2012, at 11:03 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: I often smile secretly at those who tout the latest asian stuff. It may be small, light, and look like a 'puter, but it doesn't compare for bench use to a Tek 7000 series similar vintage portables. Going through layer after layer of ever more obtuse menus is just not 'user friendly' to me. Maybe it is to the designers, because they are used to a 10,000+ character alphabet? -John On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 09:46:27AM +0200, Attila Kinali wrote: Sadly, the last scope I bought was a Chinese Rigol. (I do have real scopes too.) It is getting to the point where Rigol and Instek will make buying boat anchors a thing of the past. What's the quality of those chinese scopes? I never had the opportunity to use good old Tek, HP or Fluke instruments, because I never had access to them, so when I begun to buy instruments for myself, I was completely unbiased and I looked to the price and spec sheets more than the maker. To start, I wanted to replace my very very old (but very good) analog multimeter, so I bought an handheld Metex digital multimer. I choose what was then their top item with thermocouple and PC connectivity. I had soon to give it away for free to a friend (who needed a wire continuity beeper) and I bought a Fluke 177. It costed me even more, it has not PC connectivity and thermocouple, but the Metex was completely unuseable while the Fluke is very good. Then it was the time for a scope, a function generator and a lab power supply. I bought all the three from Instek. The scope was the GDS-820S and as soon as I had the opportunity, I sold it and bought an Agilent DSO3062A. This Agilent too is very entry-level, the plastic case cracks easily, in general the quality is not near the level the other Agilent instruments I late bought (like the 34401A) but the Instek was unuseable while the Agilent is ok. (I still own the function generator and the power supply: being not precision items they are useable... but for precision I bought an used Wavetek generator) To sum it up, my experience is that good instruments are unvaluable, for work as well for hobby (for hobby it's even more important, because it's supposed you should enjoy doing it!) Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Chinese Scopes (was: Re: LORAN-C at MIT)
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 05:51:13PM +, Marvin Gozum wrote: FWIW the 3000 series Agilents were rebadged Rigols. The newer entry levels to mid-range scopes are now all designed and built by Agilent in their Malaysia plant. This means two things: I now know why the overall quality is really lower in respect to other Agilent stuff and, provide that Agilent didn't ask for more RAM, improved firmware, or other changes, Rigol scopes have a easy to crack case but ok... I am now curious to try a real Agilent one. Best regards, Andrea Baldoni ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
