Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[David J Taylor]

Satellite TV (Dish, Direct, etc) has been having trouble for 10 hours or so, 
sometimes losing some channels and occasionally all of them.


Fox News is consistently down, so it could have a human cause, but Space 
Weather says we have unusual solar activity.


I no longer have GPS time receivers, so I wonder how GPS is doing.

Thanks for any comments.
Bill Hawkins
___

Bill,

GPS is fine here in Edinburgh:

 http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/performance_gps.php

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 


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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[David I. Emery]

On Fri, Nov 04, 2016 at 06:53:53PM -0500, David wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:43:03 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >...
> >
> > There HAVE been attempts to deliberately jam cable distribution
> >satellites... mostly the EIRPs used for distribution signal uplinks
> >make this a bit difficult, but it has been done.   There are also some
> >countermeasures in place to help quickly locate and ID rogue uplinks.
> >
> >...
> 
> Captain Midnight was the first satellite incident that came to mind
> but I wonder how many others there have been.

I've heard various numbers (not all that many in NA, more in
other parts of the world) but as you may or may not know, orders of
magnitude more cases of accidental lighting up an uplink pointing at the
wrong satellite, or on the wrong transponder or polarity (or with the
polarity skew wrong) or at the wrong time.

There is a current upgrade in process to require most uplinks to
carry a DSSS spread spectrum buried carrier ID under the actual
modulation energy  with information in it that can be linked back to an
uplinker phone number and ID and location, either by directly including
that info or by an uplinker ID ESN listed in a protected non public
database kept by the satellite operators and space managers allowing them to
determine who the uplinker is (among their customers).


-- 
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[David]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:43:03 -0400, you wrote:

>...
>
>   There HAVE been attempts to deliberately jam cable distribution
>satellites... mostly the EIRPs used for distribution signal uplinks
>make this a bit difficult, but it has been done.   There are also some
>countermeasures in place to help quickly locate and ID rogue uplinks.
>
>...

Captain Midnight was the first satellite incident that came to mind
but I wonder how many others there have been.


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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[David]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:23:16 -0400, you wrote:

>I no longer have DISH but I did have it a year ago and the outage 
>happened every year like clockwork , they even sent me a notice that I 
>could expect a sun outage and I did.. I also experienced outages every 
>time a thunderhead at 30,+ feet got between me and the satellite as well

We have Dish outages a couple times a year here in Missouri do to
thunderheads.  I might have thought that was do a particular dish and
receiver but when they were both upgraded, the outages do to
thunderheads remained.
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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[David I. Emery]

On Fri, Nov 04, 2016 at 06:19:13PM -0400, David I. Emery wrote:
>   Solar outages are not greatly worse on C band.
> 
>   It WAS true that EIRPs at C band were kept lower at one time (to
> protect the now mostly completely abandoned terrestrial C band microwave
> telephone network which shares 3.7-4.2 Ghz with C band satellite) than
> at Ku band, but that is less true today...

Since folks have brought this up, a couple of more observations
are relevant.

C band has MUCH less weather absorption by normal storms...

Ku band satellite signal fades from rain in passing
thunderstorms often can and do exceed 10-12 db...

This means in practice that C band link budgets can get by with
significantly lower margin to handle rain fades...

So many Ku signals are run with big margins of excess signal so
as to reduce the number of seconds of reception lost to passing
thunderstorms  something not needed as much for C band.

Thus a C band dish sized to just work reliably will have less
margin for the noise floor to rise as the sun goes past the satellite.  
But it DOES rise for Ku dishes as well, just they may be sized to have
more margin and/or the satellite power is higher.

Some home DTH dishes don't leave much margin, others are better.

But it is not true that the sky noise temp doesn't go up a lot 
at Ku band during sun outage season or that for some dishes and some signals
this will not eat the margin up and "ku does not have sun outages".


-- 
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[David I. Emery]

On Fri, Nov 04, 2016 at 03:19:20PM -0700, Hal Murray wrote:
> 
> petervince1...@gmail.com said:
> > Sorry Don, I beg to differ.  The effects are often not noticeable in these
> > days of digital television, but the noise-floor can definitely be seen to
> > rise dramatically on a spectrum analyser. 
> 
> Right.  But I think that's because the sun is lining up with the satellite 
> rather than the ionosphere is getting trashed and messing up propagation.

BOTH can be issues.   Faraday rotation can reduce polarization 
isolation in geomagnetic storms... worse at high latitudes... and also
geomagnetic storms can cause antenna pointing issues for satellites...



-- 
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Artek Manuals]

On 11/4/2016 6:04 PM, Peter Vince wrote:

Sorry Don, I beg to differ.  The effects are often not noticeable in these
days of digital television, but the noise-floor can definitely be seen to
rise dramatically on a spectrum analyser.

 Regards  (ex BBC TV, London)


On 4 November 2016 at 21:51, Don Murray via time-nuts 
wrote:


DirecTV and DishNetwork are on Ku-Band platforms.
Ku-Band is not affected by sun outage.

Don
W4WJ


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I no longer have DISH but I did have it a year ago and the outage 
happened every year like clockwork , they even sent me a notice that I 
could expect a sun outage and I did.. I also experienced outages every 
time a thunderhead at 30,+ feet got between me and the satellite as well



--
Dave
manu...@artekmanuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[David I. Emery]

On Fri, Nov 04, 2016 at 09:58:50PM +, Mark Sims wrote:

> I was a local electronics parts store this afternoon and they were
> saying some of the satellite TV internet infrastructure was being
> DDoS'd...  ah, the subtle wonders of a few hundred thousand hacked TV
> cameras yammering down your pipe at the same time.

Interesting but probably not that likely.

At least DirecTV is fully capable of doing most things without
any Internet connection at all... maybe not Pay per view or special
stuff like the Sunday Ticket authorizations and data feed (or obviously
video on demand) ... but most everything else

There ARE lots of feeds of local stations to the uplink
facilities via leased fiber circuits, but I don't think a lot of those
are competing for bandwidth on the open Internet but are closed circuit
switched networks.   There is talk of using VPNs over the Internet but I
think such issues as DDOS attacks have mostly kept that from happening
just yet.

Most of the cable channels reach the uplink facility via C band
dishes from the cable signal distributions that feed other head ends... 

There HAVE been attempts to deliberately jam cable distribution
satellites... mostly the EIRPs used for distribution signal uplinks
make this a bit difficult, but it has been done.   There are also some
countermeasures in place to help quickly locate and ID rogue uplinks.

Because the US military and government is a heavy user of 
commercial satellite capacity, they maintain monitoring facilities that
keep constant watch for intruders... as do the satellite control
facilities responsible for the operation of the birds.


-- 
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Hal Murray]

petervince1...@gmail.com said:
> Sorry Don, I beg to differ.  The effects are often not noticeable in these
> days of digital television, but the noise-floor can definitely be seen to
> rise dramatically on a spectrum analyser. 

Right.  But I think that's because the sun is lining up with the satellite 
rather than the ionosphere is getting trashed and messing up propagation.
 

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Don Murray via time-nuts]

Peter...
 
The rise in the noise floor on Ku was not sufficient to cause
programming outage.
 
 
When I was running the satellite receive system in Miami,
we never had problems with Ku downlinks during the twice
yearly sun outage.
 
My customers in the news department got very upset when their
C-Band feeds went into the dumper.
 
They didn't understand why some of the satellite feeds (Ku),
including DirecTV and Dish, were not affected.
 
Don
W4WJ

 
 
In a message dated 11/4/2016 5:04:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
petervince1...@gmail.com writes:

Sorry Don, I beg to differ.  The effects are often not  noticeable in these 
days of digital television, but the noise-floor can  definitely be seen to 
rise dramatically on a spectrum analyser.  


Regards  (ex BBC TV, London)


On 4 November 2016 at 21:51, Don Murray via time-nuts   
wrote:

DirecTV  and DishNetwork are on Ku-Band platforms.
Ku-Band is not affected by sun  outage.

Don
W4WJ






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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[David I. Emery]

On Fri, Nov 04, 2016 at 06:11:48PM -0400, David I. Emery wrote:
> 
>   The solar outage season (a loss of signal for about 10 minutes
> max when the sun is directly behind the satellite as seen from the dish)
> runs from very late Sept (deep south) to about Oct 15 or so (Canada).

Try 




-- 
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 11/4/2016 2:51 PM, Don Murray via time-nuts wrote:

DirecTV and DishNetwork are on Ku-Band platforms.
Ku-Band is not affected by sun outage.

Don
W4WJ



The backhaul on C band might be affected.

Rick
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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[David I. Emery]

On Fri, Nov 04, 2016 at 05:51:35PM -0400, Don Murray via time-nuts wrote:
> DirecTV and DishNetwork are on Ku-Band platforms.
> Ku-Band is not affected by sun outage.

I beg to differ !!!

The sun is still plenty energetic enough at 10-12 Ghz to
override weak satellite transmissions.   

In fact the solar flux is measured at 10 Ghz...

Solar outages are not greatly worse on C band.

It WAS true that EIRPs at C band were kept lower at one time (to
protect the now mostly completely abandoned terrestrial C band microwave
telephone network which shares 3.7-4.2 Ghz with C band satellite) than
at Ku band, but that is less true today...



-- 
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[David I. Emery]

On Fri, Nov 04, 2016 at 04:52:25PM -0400, paul swed wrote:
> U with respect to direct TV is it the noramal two time per year sun
> outage its about the right time.
> Regards
> Paul.

Nope way off...

The solar outage season (a loss of signal for about 10 minutes
max when the sun is directly behind the satellite as seen from the dish)
runs from very late Sept (deep south) to about Oct 15 or so (Canada).

Around here in Boston the max is either the 9th or 10th of October
depending on which satellite you are talking about.   Both DirecTV and
dish use more than one orbital location so there are outages of DIFFERENT
channels at different times during the outage seasons in spring and fall.
This of course somewhat depends on the level of service you have, such
as whether you get the entire HD package or International channels or
your local TV stations, and what market area you are located in.

Some outage happens for a window of maybe 4-6 days centered on
the max... but because of the cliff effect with FEC corrected digital
modulations that means that reception will be close to perfect until the
S/N gets just a little worse and then it fails completely - this may
almost not be noticeable except when the sun is right behind the
satellite.



-- 
  Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 
02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in 
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Peter Vince]

Sorry Don, I beg to differ.  The effects are often not noticeable in these
days of digital television, but the noise-floor can definitely be seen to
rise dramatically on a spectrum analyser.

 Regards  (ex BBC TV, London)


On 4 November 2016 at 21:51, Don Murray via time-nuts 
wrote:

> DirecTV and DishNetwork are on Ku-Band platforms.
> Ku-Band is not affected by sun outage.
>
> Don
> W4WJ
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Peter Vince]

I don't think so Paul.  That happens about the 12th of October in London
(51.5° North), a few days later at higher latitudes, and a few days earlier
at lower latitudes.  Cairo, for instance, on about 30° North, was around
the 5th of October.

 Peter


On 4 November 2016 at 20:52, paul swed  wrote:

> U with respect to direct TV is it the noramal two time per year sun
> outage its about the right time.
> Regards
> Paul.
>
>
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[time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Mark Sims]

I was a local electronics parts store this afternoon and they were saying some 
of the satellite TV internet infrastructure was being DDoS'd...  ah, the subtle 
wonders of a few hundred thousand hacked TV cameras yammering down your pipe at 
the same time.
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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Don Murray via time-nuts]

DirecTV and DishNetwork are on Ku-Band platforms.
Ku-Band is not affected by sun outage.
 
Don
W4WJ
 
 
In a message dated 11/4/2016 3:52:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:

U  with respect to direct TV is it the noramal two time per year sun
outage  its about the right time.
Regards
Paul.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at  4:47 PM, Norm n3ykf  wrote:

> Tmobile  clock on cell off. Garmin fenix3 watch is correct.
>
> On Fri, Nov  4, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Don Murray via time-nuts
>   wrote:
> > No problems here with FOX on  Dish, Ch 205
> >
> > Don
> > W4WJ
>  >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 11/4/2016  1:45:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > bill.i...@pobox.com  writes:
> >
> > Satellite TV (Dish, Direct, etc) has been  having trouble for 10  hours 
or
> > so, sometimes losing some  channels and occasionally all of  them.
> >
> > Fox  News is consistently down, so it could have a human cause,  but  
Space
> > Weather says we have unusual solar activity.
>  >
> > I no longer  have GPS time receivers, so I wonder how  GPS is doing.
> >
> > Thanks for any  comments.
>  >
> > Bill  Hawkins
> >
> >  ___
> > time-nuts   mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[paul swed]

U with respect to direct TV is it the noramal two time per year sun
outage its about the right time.
Regards
Paul.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Norm n3ykf  wrote:

> Tmobile clock on cell off. Garmin fenix3 watch is correct.
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Don Murray via time-nuts
>  wrote:
> > No problems here with FOX on Dish, Ch 205
> >
> > Don
> > W4WJ
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 11/4/2016 1:45:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > bill.i...@pobox.com writes:
> >
> > Satellite TV (Dish, Direct, etc) has been having trouble for 10  hours or
> > so, sometimes losing some channels and occasionally all of  them.
> >
> > Fox News is consistently down, so it could have a human cause,  but Space
> > Weather says we have unusual solar activity.
> >
> > I no longer  have GPS time receivers, so I wonder how GPS is doing.
> >
> > Thanks for any  comments.
> >
> > Bill  Hawkins
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the  instructions there.
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Norm n3ykf]

Tmobile clock on cell off. Garmin fenix3 watch is correct.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Don Murray via time-nuts
 wrote:
> No problems here with FOX on Dish, Ch 205
>
> Don
> W4WJ
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/4/2016 1:45:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> bill.i...@pobox.com writes:
>
> Satellite TV (Dish, Direct, etc) has been having trouble for 10  hours or
> so, sometimes losing some channels and occasionally all of  them.
>
> Fox News is consistently down, so it could have a human cause,  but Space
> Weather says we have unusual solar activity.
>
> I no longer  have GPS time receivers, so I wonder how GPS is doing.
>
> Thanks for any  comments.
>
> Bill  Hawkins
>
> ___
> time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Don Murray via time-nuts]

No problems here with FOX on Dish, Ch 205
 
Don
W4WJ
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/4/2016 1:45:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
bill.i...@pobox.com writes:

Satellite TV (Dish, Direct, etc) has been having trouble for 10  hours or
so, sometimes losing some channels and occasionally all of  them.

Fox News is consistently down, so it could have a human cause,  but Space
Weather says we have unusual solar activity.

I no longer  have GPS time receivers, so I wonder how GPS is doing.

Thanks for any  comments.

Bill  Hawkins

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Re: [time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Pete Stephenson]

On Nov 4, 2016 19:45, "Bill Hawkins"  wrote:
>
> Satellite TV (Dish, Direct, etc) has been having trouble for 10 hours or
> so, sometimes losing some channels and occasionally all of them.
>
> Fox News is consistently down, so it could have a human cause, but Space
> Weather says we have unusual solar activity.
>
> I no longer have GPS time receivers, so I wonder how GPS is doing.

GPS timekeeping seems to be working fine here in Switzerland.

My situation here today was coincidentally similar to yours: a local
failure with some cableco equipment left me without TV or internet for a
few hours, so the GPS receivers were the only things keeping my network in
sync. No need for holdover, fortunately.

Cheers!
-Pete
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[time-nuts] Satellite TV messed up, how is GPS time

[Bill Hawkins]

Satellite TV (Dish, Direct, etc) has been having trouble for 10 hours or
so, sometimes losing some channels and occasionally all of them.

Fox News is consistently down, so it could have a human cause, but Space
Weather says we have unusual solar activity.

I no longer have GPS time receivers, so I wonder how GPS is doing.

Thanks for any comments.

Bill Hawkins

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