Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
HI Well if you are getting it done in seconds on Matlab, then you likely don't need Matlab very badly. Around here a typical Matlab setup is indeed CPU bound for a *lot* longer than that during a normal work day. Two or three hours a day is not at all unusual. Bob On Jan 6, 2013, at 11:21 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 1/6/13 6:09 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Ummm, er you want to run Matlab and you are likely paying $100 an hour to whom ever is waiting on the machine. My *guess* is that a micro board of what ever flavor will do an arbitrary Matlab run in maybe 30 days. Yes. But any of a zillion PC clones will do it fast enough. Think of all those Tek and Agilent boxes with a embedded PC.. what do they have inside? That same run would take something large about 30 minutes. Nahh.. seconds on slow laptop, seconds on a desktop PC. Matlab isn't all that slow. That of course assumes you can even get Matlab to load on something small. It doesn't have to be small.. except physically. That's really what I'm looking for. Physically small (mini ITX sort of form factor, or, for that matter, laptop formfactor), but able to procured as an OEM sort of widget (e.g. I assume Tek and Agilent aren't designing their own mobos to stick in the back of an oscilloscope or VNA.. so what ARE they shoving in there) An Ivy Bridge based PC with multiple cores can be built up for less than $800 in a fairly small package. It won't be single board, but it will be small. Not the fastest system on the planet, but pretty fast. You'll be paying a significant chunk of that for the Windows license. The cost of the Matlab license will be well above the cost of the entire system (unless you have some sort of crazy deal going). yep.. but a kilobuck for a Matlab license is just a couple day's time for an engineer using it. Think of that nice Agilent PNA.. clearly it has some sort of small form factor PC mobo inside... so what are they using? Put another way, you'll pay for the more expensive hardware in the first week of use - why cheap out? Precisely.. but I'd just as soon not be in the PC integration business, finding boards to plug into a mobo, etc. I was wondering what folks have used (or seen used) in this sort of usage model. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On 1/6/13 8:56 PM, gary wrote: There is an open source equivalent of Matlab called Octave. Yes..we use it too, and for anyone who uses Matlab, Octave is nice to have as well. For instance, we have a centralized license server for Matlab, and if you're incommunicado, you're stuck, but with Octave, you can, for the most part, keep doing stuff. Matlab has better/easier graphics and, of course, the toolboxes, Simulink, etc. If you are doing data acquisition, GPIB linux is kind of ugly. Not with the Prologix Ethernet GPIB widget.. it's all sockets in Python, and that's platform independent. But there are other things we do using NI LabView, and sometimes, there's a Windows driver for the device, but not one for Linux. I'm trying to move away from the plug cards into the bus model and towards connect via USB or ethernet But if you are doing computation, Octave might be suitable. http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Octave-instrument-control-option-td4630948.html Like MS Office versus Libre Office, each has their fan base. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
Take a look at the COM Express standard, designed for embedded x86 computing: http://www.picmg.org/v2internal/specifications2.cfm?thetype=Onethebusid=3 Additionally there is a huge amount of design support literature from Intel, Adlink, Ampro, Congatec, Kontron, Radisys, etc. COM Express boards are complete single board computers, but use high-density connectors to a carrier board for I/O. This allows optimizing the I/O and storage mix / connectorization to suit the application at hand. Off the shelf carrier boards are also available to minimize design efforts. Required COM Express power is typically 12V, but expect 3.3V and maybe 5V for peripherals (those supplies are often built into the carrier). A wide variety of X86 family CPU boards are available, and many are low enough power so as to not need a fan. Paired with a flash-based SATA drive you get a real rugged PC that potentially can reside in a sealed box. FWIW my employer has used thousands of these for an in-vehicle Windows platform, where it sits subservient to a much more reliable Linux OS running on a non-X86 processor. We take responsibility for our code on the Linux CPU, and let the customer run their own code as they choose on the Windows PC. Works for us. Bob LaJeunesse - Original Message From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sun, January 6, 2013 7:26:46 PM Subject: [time-nuts] single board PCs Consulting the hive mind.. If you're building a standalone widget (e.g. something like an NTP server we've been discussing, etc.) with an embedded PC, don't want to fool with hardware designing, etc.; use off the shelf OSes (win and Linux) and software (Matlab, Labview); have solid state boot/storage media.. No user interface needed (access is solely via network)... What's the hot ticket these days.. One of the CarPC things (most are a miniITX/miniATX with a USB or SD disk drive). (This is what I used last time) Raspberry Pi is a possibility, but I don't know that it has the oomph to run things like Matlab: and I suspect it doesn't run Windows I'd like something I can just order and give to the software guys to start coding on (they're using Matlab, Labview, and Python, in various combinations). Eventually, it will be packaged inside the box which is about 10x10x3 along with the GPS receiver and other measuremnet stuff (an FPGA with counters and the like). The FPGA will use USB for an interface (I think..).. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On 1/6/13 9:26 PM, Hal Murray wrote: jim...@earthlink.net said: Precisely.. but I'd just as soon not be in the PC integration business, finding boards to plug into a mobo, etc. I was wondering what folks have used (or seen used) in this sort of usage model. Google for embedded PC and/or mini-ITX. There are lots of them out there. Oh yeah.. That's the route I went 10 years ago with some very low power VIA based mobos. it took months to get the audio interfaces working right under (Debian) Linux, but other than that, they worked pretty well. (ALSA, OSS, etc. , pre Jack days) All you need is ethernet and USB. Right? They all have them so you don't need to worry about finding boards. Yes. But I figured that folks on this list might have found something that works particularly well. Or, particularly badly: that's the real value of asking the list.. someone says, yeah, the XYZ board looks good, but it's unstable as all get out or it has weird peripherals so you can't boot vanilla distros on it without DLL/Driver/apt-get/yum misery. The mini-ITX boards come with lots of connectors on the back. You will need to plug in a keyboard and display to install the OS and/or talk to the BIOS. Once you get things setup, it will autoboot on power-up. Your initial message said Eventually, it will be packaged inside the box which is about 10x10x3. Is that just the PC or do you expect to get lots of other stuff in there? Their M350 box is 7.5 in wide, 8.5 deep, and 2.5 in high with vent slots on top. The M300 is 9x9.5x3. Yeah, we'd probably repackage. Things like power dissipation and fans are also an issue. The application I'm thinking of right now is one which has low duty cycle, but moderately compute intensive, say, 1 minute out of 30. But I have some others (remote monitoring of some GPS receivers, for instance) which are more like fancy data loggers. I'd like to just put a 12x12 NEMA 4 box out there, with batteries, small PC mobo, and wireless network connection. It's sort of the upscale version of the Arduino, PIC, MSP430 thing. I'm looking for a building block that I can just drop in, hook up, and not worry too much about. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On 1/7/2013 1:25 AM, Jim Lux wrote: If you're building a standalone widget (e.g. something like an NTP server we've been discussing, etc.) with an embedded PC, don't want to fool with hardware designing, etc.; use off the shelf OSes (win and Linux) and software (Matlab, Labview); have solid state boot/storage media.. No user interface needed (access is solely via network)... I haven't used this, but from the specs it looks interesting ... [1]http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code =G135235611947 73 Alberto I2PHD References 1. http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G135235611947 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 06:11:59 -0800 Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: It's sort of the upscale version of the Arduino, PIC, MSP430 thing. I'm looking for a building block that I can just drop in, hook up, and not worry too much about. If you don't mind to be stuck on linux and *bsd, i would recomend the beagleboard, beaglebone, pandaboard family. Nice, low power things. Relatively cheap (for what you get), good support. And if you ask the right guy at TI you even get one for free. The beaglebone is a bit special on this list. It's not meant as an all in one solution, but rather as a building block for more complex stuff that is put ontop of it using so called capes (like Arduino+shields). Though you can already do quite a bit of stuff with the beaglebone alone. For all of them you get premade ubuntu, angström and android images, but rolling your own linux (e.g. using buildroot) is a piece of cake (getting buildroot configured and set up for a pandaboard is something like half a day, including reading the documentation, starting from zero knowledge) Actually, once you have something like buildroot set up, it's pretty easy to get linux running on any embedded system that uses a similar processor. Just change the cpu and board type in the kernel config. Compile again. Build your SD Card and you are done. Eg. you can also try the OlinuXino from Olimex, which are damn cheap. (and unlike the Raspberry Pi they are completely documented and you don't need any binary only drivers). I haven't tried any of those yet (didn't have the time), but my past experience with Olimex is very good (their Arm7 and Cortex-M3 boards are our main prototyping system) and so far all the questions i had about the boards were either answered by the available documentation or by a quick email. As for processing power, the pandaboard is probably the most powerfull with an dual-core 1.2GHz processor. But even the smaller OlinuXino with it's i.MX233 that runs IIRC up to 450MHz, you can do more than just a little bit of number crunching. Attila Kinali -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On Mon, 07 Jan 2013 15:40:00 +0100 Alberto di Bene dib...@usa.net wrote: I haven't used this, but from the specs it looks interesting ... [1]http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code =G135235611947 73 Alberto I2PHD I hear a lot of talk about those boards, but i have yet to meet someone who actually bought and tried one. A little bit of caution is adviced IMHO: i only had a quick look, but i couldnt find any schematics for those boards. I would advise against buying any non-PC compatible board that does not come with full schematics. Attila Kinali -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 16:25:59 -0800, Jim Lux wrote: Consulting the hive mind.. If you're building a standalone widget (e.g. something like an NTP server we've been discussing, etc.) with an embedded PC, don't want to fool with hardware designing, etc.; use off the shelf OSes (win and Linux) and software (Matlab, Labview); have solid state boot/storage media.. No user interface needed (access is solely via network)... What's the hot ticket these days.. One of the CarPC things (most are a miniITX/miniATX with a USB or SD disk drive). (This is what I used last time) Raspberry Pi is a possibility, but I don't know that it has the oomph to run things like Matlab: and I suspect it doesn't run Windows I'd like something I can just order and give to the software guys to start coding on (they're using Matlab, Labview, and Python, in various combinations). Eventually, it will be packaged inside the box which is about 10x10x3 along with the GPS receiver and other measuremnet stuff (an FPGA with counters and the like). The FPGA will use USB for an interface (I think..).. There is a nice collection of Mini boards here (Atom AMD) http://www.mini-itx.com/store/ The Via-picoITX boards are neat (small) I like this QuadCore http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=90 CFO Tnut Beginner Denmark ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On Mon, 7 Jan 2013 16:41:06 +0100 Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch wrote: Eg. you can also try the OlinuXino from Olimex, which are damn cheap. (and unlike the Raspberry Pi they are completely documented and you don't need any binary only drivers). I haven't tried any of those yet (didn't have the time), but my past experience with Olimex is very good (their Arm7 and Cortex-M3 boards are our main prototyping system) and so far all the questions i had about the boards were either answered by the available documentation or by a quick email. Something i forgot to mention: The i.MX23 processor comes with it's own, on-chip Li-ion battery charger. This gives you a backup battery system nearly for free :-) -- There is no secret ingredient -- Po, Kung Fu Panda ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
There is not hottest ticket. It depends on what you need. The TI launch pad is less then $5 shipped which makes it really popular. If you need loots of compute power and have an $85 budget and can stand a 9 square PCB buy an Intel Atom motherboard it comes with dual core Atom CPU soldered down and will run a full-on Linux server. If you just need a small computer with a nice display any Android phone works and of course Androids all run Linux. Arduino is nice because the software is set up for some one who know ZERO about computers and programming but is still quite powerful and yo can run the programmed Arduino off a 9V battery Of those for your use, just buy the miniITX/miniATX with a USB or SD disk drive. Cost is under $100 and they burn about 20W of power. The little launch pad chip will goes for months (years?) on AA battery power. I think as a general rule ofthumb the bigger the computer the less cost for make the software. For example a NTP server is trivial if you have an miniATX board because NTP ships with Linux but it might take a couple man years of effort to code an NTP sever on a Up that ha the same level of maturity and testingas the free NTP you get with Linux. That is a quarter of a million dollars in saving. (yea it does that at least that much labor, just try and write a test plan the NTP and then execute it. It would take months to verify you have covered all the odd-ball failure cases and done the error reporting correctly, let alone measure the timekeeping accuracy. Don't discount using a smart phone. This is likely betterfor many things then the miniATX build your specialized hard ware then connect via USB BT or WiFi to the phone. On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: Consulting the hive mind.. If you're building a standalone widget (e.g. something like an NTP server we've been discussing, etc.) with an embedded PC, don't want to fool with hardware designing, etc.; use off the shelf OSes (win and Linux) and software (Matlab, Labview); have solid state boot/storage media.. No user interface needed (access is solely via network)... What's the hot ticket these days.. One of the CarPC things (most are a miniITX/miniATX with a USB or SD disk drive). (This is what I used last time) Raspberry Pi is a possibility, but I don't know that it has the oomph to run things like Matlab: and I suspect it doesn't run Windows I'd like something I can just order and give to the software guys to start coding on (they're using Matlab, Labview, and Python, in various combinations). Eventually, it will be packaged inside the box which is about 10x10x3 along with the GPS receiver and other measuremnet stuff (an FPGA with counters and the like). The FPGA will use USB for an interface (I think..).. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
This might be a good place to start looking. http://beagleboard.org/project/BeagleTick/ I got a beagleboard mx, but it is for a different project. I'm not up to speed on it enough to comment if this is the best solution. I can tell you the hardware design and more importantly the documentation of the hardware is very good..well compared to the competition. I passed up the pandaboard because I thought the hardware documentation was a bit skimpy. FWIW, you can run opensuse on it. It seems to me if you want to run matlab and labview, you will need a dual core atom at the very least. But that seems like it should be a different project. Network control means different things to different people. If you want NETWORK CONTROL (as in I am shouting), you probably want IMPI. Supermicro makes a D525 board with IMPI, intended for low power servers. http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/atom/ich9/x7spe-hf-d525.cfm http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/ATOM/X9/X9SBAA-F.cfm I only know about IMPI second hand, but system administrators swear by it, as in saved their arse! Remote operation is always kind of dicey if the remote device isn't working well. With IMPI, you can actually mess with the bios. Supposedly it ls like really being there. On 1/6/2013 4:25 PM, Jim Lux wrote: Consulting the hive mind.. If you're building a standalone widget (e.g. something like an NTP server we've been discussing, etc.) with an embedded PC, don't want to fool with hardware designing, etc.; use off the shelf OSes (win and Linux) and software (Matlab, Labview); have solid state boot/storage media.. No user interface needed (access is solely via network)... What's the hot ticket these days.. One of the CarPC things (most are a miniITX/miniATX with a USB or SD disk drive). (This is what I used last time) Raspberry Pi is a possibility, but I don't know that it has the oomph to run things like Matlab: and I suspect it doesn't run Windows I'd like something I can just order and give to the software guys to start coding on (they're using Matlab, Labview, and Python, in various combinations). Eventually, it will be packaged inside the box which is about 10x10x3 along with the GPS receiver and other measuremnet stuff (an FPGA with counters and the like). The FPGA will use USB for an interface (I think..).. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On 1/6/13 5:43 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: There is not hottest ticket. It depends on what you need. The TI launch pad is less then $5 shipped which makes it really popular. Somehow I suspect the MSP430 launchpad won't run windows/Linux and Matlab, eh? If you need loots of compute power and have an $85 budget and can stand a 9 square PCB buy an Intel Atom motherboard it comes with dual core Atom CPU soldered down and will run a full-on Linux server. Sure.. the budget is even higher.. when you're paying the developers $100/hr burdened rate, I'm more than happy to spend a few hundred bucks more to make the development/operating environment something easy and familiar. This isn't a gonna make 10,000 copies and need to squeeze out every penny.. it's a stick a PC inside so software development is like doing it on your desktop machine If you just need a small computer with a nice display No display.. as mentioned, sole interface is via network. any Android phone works and of course Androids all run Linux. Arduino is nice because the software is set up for some one who know ZERO about computers and programming but is still quite powerful and yo can run the programmed Arduino off a 9V battery Dude.. Arduinos don't run Matlab or Labview.. Arduinos (of which I am a big fan) are an embedded microcontroller, not an embedded PC.. I want something that people who are used to working and developing software on a desktop can use for a embedded box. Of those for your use, just buy the miniITX/miniATX with a USB or SD disk drive. Cost is under $100 and they burn about 20W of power. The little launch pad chip will goes for months (years?) on AA battery power. I think as a general rule ofthumb the bigger the computer the less cost for make the software. Precisely why I want a PC not a microcontroller. This is a situation where the developer cost is hugely bigger than the processor cost. But which miniATX? There's tons out there.. and that's the source of the question.. Phones are out of the question.. I'm not building an NTP server, but something else of comparable complexity, hence the question. Folks who have built NTP servers (recently) using off the shelf stuff will have gone through the exercise of finding boards that work, etc. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On 1/6/13 5:52 PM, gary wrote: This might be a good place to start looking. http://beagleboard.org/project/BeagleTick/ I got a beagleboard mx, but it is for a different project. I'm not up to speed on it enough to comment if this is the best solution. I can tell you the hardware design and more importantly the documentation of the hardware is very good..well compared to the competition. I passed up the pandaboard because I thought the hardware documentation was a bit skimpy. FWIW, you can run opensuse on it. It seems to me if you want to run matlab and labview, you will need a dual core atom at the very least. But that seems like it should be a different project. Yup.. needs some serious computing horsepower. Network control means different things to different people. If you want NETWORK CONTROL (as in I am shouting), you probably want IMPI. Supermicro makes a D525 board with IMPI, intended for low power servers. More like the only access is via SSH, http, telnet, etc. http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/atom/ich9/x7spe-hf-d525.cfm http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/ATOM/X9/X9SBAA-F.cfm I only know about IMPI second hand, but system administrators swear by it, as in saved their arse! Remote operation is always kind of dicey if the remote device isn't working well. With IMPI, you can actually mess with the bios. Supposedly it ls like really being there. Thanks, I'll take a look.. The ability to poke at the device remotely at a very low level is quite useful (e.g. if it's unattended). ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
Hi Ummm, er you want to run Matlab and you are likely paying $100 an hour to whom ever is waiting on the machine. My *guess* is that a micro board of what ever flavor will do an arbitrary Matlab run in maybe 30 days. That same run would take something large about 30 minutes. That of course assumes you can even get Matlab to load on something small. An Ivy Bridge based PC with multiple cores can be built up for less than $800 in a fairly small package. It won't be single board, but it will be small. Not the fastest system on the planet, but pretty fast. You'll be paying a significant chunk of that for the Windows license. The cost of the Matlab license will be well above the cost of the entire system (unless you have some sort of crazy deal going). Put another way, you'll pay for the more expensive hardware in the first week of use - why cheap out? Bob On Jan 6, 2013, at 8:56 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 1/6/13 5:43 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: There is not hottest ticket. It depends on what you need. The TI launch pad is less then $5 shipped which makes it really popular. Somehow I suspect the MSP430 launchpad won't run windows/Linux and Matlab, eh? If you need loots of compute power and have an $85 budget and can stand a 9 square PCB buy an Intel Atom motherboard it comes with dual core Atom CPU soldered down and will run a full-on Linux server. Sure.. the budget is even higher.. when you're paying the developers $100/hr burdened rate, I'm more than happy to spend a few hundred bucks more to make the development/operating environment something easy and familiar. This isn't a gonna make 10,000 copies and need to squeeze out every penny.. it's a stick a PC inside so software development is like doing it on your desktop machine If you just need a small computer with a nice display No display.. as mentioned, sole interface is via network. any Android phone works and of course Androids all run Linux. Arduino is nice because the software is set up for some one who know ZERO about computers and programming but is still quite powerful and yo can run the programmed Arduino off a 9V battery Dude.. Arduinos don't run Matlab or Labview.. Arduinos (of which I am a big fan) are an embedded microcontroller, not an embedded PC.. I want something that people who are used to working and developing software on a desktop can use for a embedded box. Of those for your use, just buy the miniITX/miniATX with a USB or SD disk drive. Cost is under $100 and they burn about 20W of power. The little launch pad chip will goes for months (years?) on AA battery power. I think as a general rule ofthumb the bigger the computer the less cost for make the software. Precisely why I want a PC not a microcontroller. This is a situation where the developer cost is hugely bigger than the processor cost. But which miniATX? There's tons out there.. and that's the source of the question.. Phones are out of the question.. I'm not building an NTP server, but something else of comparable complexity, hence the question. Folks who have built NTP servers (recently) using off the shelf stuff will have gone through the exercise of finding boards that work, etc. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On 1/6/2013 5:59 PM, Jim Lux wrote: On 1/6/13 5:52 PM, gary wrote: This might be a good place to start looking. http://beagleboard.org/project/BeagleTick/ I got a beagleboard mx, but it is for a different project. I'm not up to speed on it enough to comment if this is the best solution. I can tell you the hardware design and more importantly the documentation of the hardware is very good..well compared to the competition. I passed up the pandaboard because I thought the hardware documentation was a bit skimpy. FWIW, you can run opensuse on it. It seems to me if you want to run matlab and labview, you will need a dual core atom at the very least. But that seems like it should be a different project. Yup.. needs some serious computing horsepower. Network control means different things to different people. If you want NETWORK CONTROL (as in I am shouting), you probably want IMPI. Supermicro makes a D525 board with IMPI, intended for low power servers. More like the only access is via SSH, http, telnet, etc. http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/atom/ich9/x7spe-hf-d525.cfm http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/ATOM/X9/X9SBAA-F.cfm I only know about IMPI second hand, but system administrators swear by it, as in saved their arse! Remote operation is always kind of dicey if the remote device isn't working well. With IMPI, you can actually mess with the bios. Supposedly it ls like really being there. Thanks, I'll take a look.. The ability to poke at the device remotely at a very low level is quite useful (e.g. if it's unattended). here is another board I ran across while looking for boards with SATA. No sata here (or on any I've looked at), but it might be something for you to to look at given your form factor. http://20watts.blogspot.com/2012/08/minipc-avatar-apc-8750-wm8750.html There is also a pad with an 8750 in it as well I saw reviewed, though I doubt you need that. I'm not sure it would have the go power, but it might be better than the RPI for some things. Jim ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
You pay quite a premium for a Supermicro mobo over say an Asus, which is the atom D525 mobo I am using. [Supermicro didn't have one at the time.] The newer atoms address more RAM. But if you are going to run Matlab, you might want to consider the low power Xeon CPUs. Yes, that sounds nuts on the surface, but intel has a few Xeons that are in the new 22nm process, so the TDP is on par with the 40nm Atoms of a few years ago. Further, while they are server CPUs, consider them server-esk. For instance, they don't use registered (buffered) memory like most servers use. They can even run on non error correcting memory if you want to go cheap, or ECC if you want hi rel. These CPUs are used in NAS applications, though they are just as good as most of the consumer I series. http://ark.intel.com/products/65735/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E3-1220LV2-3M-Cache-2_30-GHz If you go with error correcting memory, you should get the Supermicro mobo. It has the hooks to report memory issues to the OS. [Linux for sure. I'm not sure which flavor of windows has the hooks.] Of course it has the IMPI also. On 1/6/2013 5:59 PM, Jim Lux wrote: On 1/6/13 5:52 PM, gary wrote: This might be a good place to start looking. http://beagleboard.org/project/BeagleTick/ I got a beagleboard mx, but it is for a different project. I'm not up to speed on it enough to comment if this is the best solution. I can tell you the hardware design and more importantly the documentation of the hardware is very good..well compared to the competition. I passed up the pandaboard because I thought the hardware documentation was a bit skimpy. FWIW, you can run opensuse on it. It seems to me if you want to run matlab and labview, you will need a dual core atom at the very least. But that seems like it should be a different project. Yup.. needs some serious computing horsepower. Network control means different things to different people. If you want NETWORK CONTROL (as in I am shouting), you probably want IMPI. Supermicro makes a D525 board with IMPI, intended for low power servers. More like the only access is via SSH, http, telnet, etc. http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/atom/ich9/x7spe-hf-d525.cfm http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/ATOM/X9/X9SBAA-F.cfm I only know about IMPI second hand, but system administrators swear by it, as in saved their arse! Remote operation is always kind of dicey if the remote device isn't working well. With IMPI, you can actually mess with the bios. Supposedly it ls like really being there. Thanks, I'll take a look.. The ability to poke at the device remotely at a very low level is quite useful (e.g. if it's unattended). ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
jim...@earthlink.net said: What's the hot ticket these days.. One of the CarPC things (most are a miniITX/miniATX with a USB or SD disk drive). (This is what I used last time) I think you need to figure out how much horsepower you want/need and/or how much cooling you can afford. Much of the embedded (and CarPC) systems are targeted at the low power market. Some/many of them can run without fans. The catch is low horsepower as well as low wall-power. For software development, you can do most of that on a normal desktop PC. If you are happy with what you used last time, go with it again. (or whatever newer version they are pushing) -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
Jim Lux wrote: the remote device isn't working well. With IMPI, you can actually mess with the bios. Supposedly it ls like really being there. Thanks, I'll take a look.. The ability to poke at the device remotely at a very low level is quite useful (e.g. if it's unattended). Pretty sure this is IPMI, the intelligent platform management interface. Some related terms to familiarize yourself with: ComBIOS: Lets you tinker with the BIOS settings and stuff over RS232, useless unless you're local or have a terminal server plugged into the thing, but nice for big-iron folks who are used to managing headless machines. DRAC: Dell Remote Access Card. iLO/iLOM: integrated Lights-Out (Management), HP nee Compaq's version IBM RSA: Remote Supervisor Adapter MegaRAC: AMI's Remote Access Controller Four versions of essentially the same thing, these are all console-over-network implementations that let you do crazy voodoo like feed virtual floppy and CDROM images to the thing and install an entire OS remotely, while redirecting the video framebuffer back to you. Sometimes the virtual video card requires funky driver support once the OS is installed, which can lead to awkwardness and pain. Each is tied to a specific vendor. IP KVM: Variously implemented, it's a separate box that does keyboard-video-mouse over a network, sometimes with additional virtualized USB peripherals including CDROMs and stuff for the above tricks with whatever machine you plug it into. Notably, the AdderLink products use VNC as the transport, so there are already clients for everything. Driverless, because it just plugs in where the regular UI devices would go. You'd want a model with passthrough, of course, so the local UI could still work. Depending on the degree of remote access you need, that may all be silly and expensive overkill. How much will the customer cry about downtime? Often a simple remote reboot will bring you back, and if that fails, you probably need hands on-site anyway. There's the $200 version: http://dataprobe.com/iboot-remote-reboot.php And the $2 version: http://www.i3detroit.com/reset-on-lan-an-ethernet-aware-remote-reboot-device-from-junkbox-parts aka http://preview.tinyurl.com/resetonlan Your best bet for the hardware itself would be any of the numerous embedded computing forums. Actually the car-PC folks (mp3car.com, etc) probably have a lot of relevant knowledge, though they represent a fairly price-sensitive market so take it with a grain of salt. If the end device will be thermally constrained, power turns into heat, so an efficient system makes sense. Heat requires fans, and fans make noise, so you know who has the best rundown of gutsy-but-low-power systems? SilentPCReview! Their audience is mostly building living-room PCs for entertainment, but set-top boxes doing HD video playback take a bit of grunt, after all, and their hardware review methodology is solid. But none of this is time-related. ;) -Nate- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
On 1/6/13 6:09 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Ummm, er you want to run Matlab and you are likely paying $100 an hour to whom ever is waiting on the machine. My *guess* is that a micro board of what ever flavor will do an arbitrary Matlab run in maybe 30 days. Yes. But any of a zillion PC clones will do it fast enough. Think of all those Tek and Agilent boxes with a embedded PC.. what do they have inside? That same run would take something large about 30 minutes. Nahh.. seconds on slow laptop, seconds on a desktop PC. Matlab isn't all that slow. That of course assumes you can even get Matlab to load on something small. It doesn't have to be small.. except physically. That's really what I'm looking for. Physically small (mini ITX sort of form factor, or, for that matter, laptop formfactor), but able to procured as an OEM sort of widget (e.g. I assume Tek and Agilent aren't designing their own mobos to stick in the back of an oscilloscope or VNA.. so what ARE they shoving in there) An Ivy Bridge based PC with multiple cores can be built up for less than $800 in a fairly small package. It won't be single board, but it will be small. Not the fastest system on the planet, but pretty fast. You'll be paying a significant chunk of that for the Windows license. The cost of the Matlab license will be well above the cost of the entire system (unless you have some sort of crazy deal going). yep.. but a kilobuck for a Matlab license is just a couple day's time for an engineer using it. Think of that nice Agilent PNA.. clearly it has some sort of small form factor PC mobo inside... so what are they using? Put another way, you'll pay for the more expensive hardware in the first week of use - why cheap out? Precisely.. but I'd just as soon not be in the PC integration business, finding boards to plug into a mobo, etc. I was wondering what folks have used (or seen used) in this sort of usage model. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
There is an open source equivalent of Matlab called Octave. If you are doing data acquisition, GPIB linux is kind of ugly. But if you are doing computation, Octave might be suitable. http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/Octave-instrument-control-option-td4630948.html Like MS Office versus Libre Office, each has their fan base. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
jim...@earthlink.net said: Precisely.. but I'd just as soon not be in the PC integration business, finding boards to plug into a mobo, etc. I was wondering what folks have used (or seen used) in this sort of usage model. Google for embedded PC and/or mini-ITX. There are lots of them out there. All you need is ethernet and USB. Right? They all have them so you don't need to worry about finding boards. The mini-ITX boards come with lots of connectors on the back. You will need to plug in a keyboard and display to install the OS and/or talk to the BIOS. Once you get things setup, it will autoboot on power-up. If you want a complete package, here is one example: http://www.mini-box.com/Value-System You have to select memory and disk. Or you can poke around their site, build your own system, and check the assemble-it box so they put it all together. Your initial message said Eventually, it will be packaged inside the box which is about 10x10x3. Is that just the PC or do you expect to get lots of other stuff in there? Their M350 box is 7.5 in wide, 8.5 deep, and 2.5 in high with vent slots on top. The M300 is 9x9.5x3. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs
Hi Jim, If space is an issue have a look at PC/104 format boards. These are designed for embedded applications and are rugged. Another advantage is that they pypically have a long product lifetime. No developing your product, testing it and then finding the PC motherboard you used is obsolete or worse has the same model number but different hardware. If you have other electronics in the box they will plug into your board on 0.1 headers. Rbert G8RPI. From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, 7 January 2013, 4:21 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] single board PCs On 1/6/13 6:09 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Ummm, er you want to run Matlab and you are likely paying $100 an hour to whom ever is waiting on the machine. My *guess* is that a micro board of what ever flavor will do an arbitrary Matlab run in maybe 30 days. Yes. But any of a zillion PC clones will do it fast enough. Think of all those Tek and Agilent boxes with a embedded PC.. what do they have inside? That same run would take something large about 30 minutes. Nahh.. seconds on slow laptop, seconds on a desktop PC. Matlab isn't all that slow. That of course assumes you can even get Matlab to load on something small. It doesn't have to be small.. except physically. That's really what I'm looking for. Physically small (mini ITX sort of form factor, or, for that matter, laptop formfactor), but able to procured as an OEM sort of widget (e.g. I assume Tek and Agilent aren't designing their own mobos to stick in the back of an oscilloscope or VNA.. so what ARE they shoving in there) An Ivy Bridge based PC with multiple cores can be built up for less than $800 in a fairly small package. It won't be single board, but it will be small. Not the fastest system on the planet, but pretty fast. You'll be paying a significant chunk of that for the Windows license. The cost of the Matlab license will be well above the cost of the entire system (unless you have some sort of crazy deal going). yep.. but a kilobuck for a Matlab license is just a couple day's time for an engineer using it. Think of that nice Agilent PNA.. clearly it has some sort of small form factor PC mobo inside... so what are they using? Put another way, you'll pay for the more expensive hardware in the first week of use - why cheap out? Precisely.. but I'd just as soon not be in the PC integration business, finding boards to plug into a mobo, etc. I was wondering what folks have used (or seen used) in this sort of usage model. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
