Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

I would be careful to get an all analog tcxo. The digi-trim ones while may have a decent total error band over temperature can hop up and down in 100 ppb steps when the temperature straddles two points on its temp comp table. On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 7:06 PM Bob Camp wrote: > Hi

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi Ok, I missed that. Unless there is also a trimmer cap, the EFC will be >> 0.01Hz if it needs to be on frequency for any rational amount of time. If the crystals are the typical old fundamentals, they may age 5 to 10 ppm / year when heated to OCXO temperatures. That’s +/- 25 to +/- 50 Hz

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Bob He stated 0.01Hz EFC tuning range was adequate. Gave no spec as to how close to nominal frequency is required though. Bruce > On 16 March 2017 at 10:53 Bob Camp wrote: > > > Hi > > By most modern definitions, “high stability” starts around 1x10^-12 (1 ppt) > at a tau of

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi > On Mar 15, 2017, at 3:55 PM, Dan Kemppainen wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > If one prototypes any crystal oscillator, and runs it on a bench. Then builds > an 'oven' of sorts and runs it on the same bench. Would you expect to see any > improvement? Sure, the XO likely

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi By most modern definitions, “high stability” starts around 1x10^-12 (1 ppt) at a tau of 1 second to 10 seconds. There are $20 eBay OCXO’s that run at that level. With a fundamental crystal you aren’t going to get to that point. How much EFC range are you after? How good a CNC setup

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Most likely AT cut fundamental (although there are other possibilities.) designed for operation around room temperature. Do you have the manufacturer's specs for these? What is the change in frequency between room temperature and oven temperature? What is the operating temperature of the inner

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi Bob, If one prototypes any crystal oscillator, and runs it on a bench. Then builds an 'oven' of sorts and runs it on the same bench. Would you expect to see any improvement? In other words for a given oscillator (crystal and electronics, etc), will there be any improvements in an oven

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi, I have a bunch of 5.184Mhz crystals. Large metallic tanks: HC33U case Maybe not OCXO grade, but I build a simple oscillator with a 4060 chip placed in a double oven, and reached 10E-9 short term stability up to 10sec tau. Not bad, so wondering if I can get better with a more advanced design.

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 03/15/2017 05:30 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: On 3/15/2017 4:45 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a proper design on one is a lot of work. You

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/15/2017 4:45 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a proper design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for 5.00 MHz would

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

> Le 15 mars 2017 à 08:11, Gilles Clement a écrit : > > Hi, > So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ? > I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ Crystals have existed for this frequency. A quick scan of the bay threw

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi Where do you plan on getting an OCXO grade crystal at an odd frequency like that? Much of the performance of a good OCXO is in the crystal. Doing a proper design on one is a lot of work. You *might* think that having a design for 5.00 MHz would give you a good design for 5.50 MHz. I

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi, So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ? I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency : 5184kHZ Thx, Gilles. > Le 14 mars 2017 à 18:02, Richard (Rick) Karlquist a > écrit : > > > > On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Gilles What is the required tuning range for the OCVXO? Bruce > > On 15 March 2017 at 20:11 Gilles Clement > wrote: > > Hi, > So what is the « best » design for DIY a high stability OCVXO ? > I am looking after one, needed for an exotic frequency :

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals not to mention +/- a few hundred ppm is not a big deal. You can always correct for it in software. ;) On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 8:49 AM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote: > On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > >> Hi >> >&g

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/14/17 3:49 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: There is a number of more or less odd-ball frequences that occur. For instance, 25 MHz isn't used as much as 125 MHz these days for Ethernet, as it matches the needs of GE. 148,5 MHz is another, in that range there is a number of numbers that fit

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Rick Yes, the 10811A is a good example of the sort of kludge that is required when one tries to adapt the Colpitts XO to work with an overtone crystal. However, apart from that, the design is still a lot better than those in most of the ham publications (eg. clamp diodes on JFET gates to limit

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/14/17 3:17 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: So well yes, you learn the hard way what those 4-leggers do when you have a bit of requirements. Later I dug up the patent for the process, which was focused more on the production of one standard product and late setting the frequency for customer

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Attila, On 03/14/2017 08:39 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02 +0100 Magnus Danielson wrote: Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature enough

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

ime-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which was to

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/14/17 12:39 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02 +0100 Magnus Danielson wrote: Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature enough compared to

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

For other common crystal frequencies, let's not forget 3.579545 MHz and 4x that - NTSC TV color burst and others listed here... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_oscillator_frequencies On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Attila Kinali wrote: > On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:39:02 +0100 Magnus Danielson wrote: > Some claims that MEMS will kill crystals. It will surely eat a good > market share, but I think there is applications where MEMS is not mature > enough compared to crystals. MEMS is quite mature, it's

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Not only that. Good luck finding a datasheet with *any* analog specifications for its internal oscillator. Here are the pins for an external crystal. The microchip PICs are nice, they give you the goldilocks selection for drive level a little cool, a little hot, maybe just right. On Tue, Mar 14,

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/14/2017 4:03 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: Looking at oscillator circuits like the HP10811A will give some idea of some of the additional complexity required for a overtone operation. Dissecting a few ocxos may also be helpful. Some start with a 10MHz crystal and a Colpitts sustaining

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

ed loose >>>> crystals? >>>> >>>> >>>> -=Bryan=- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) >>>>

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

not to mention +/- a few hundred ppm is not a big deal. You can always correct for it in software. ;) On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 8:49 AM, jimlux wrote: > On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote: > >> Hi >> >> The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi > On Mar 14, 2017, at 8:49 AM, jimlux wrote: > > On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >>> The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple >>> crystal is tiny. The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or >>> engineering time.

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/14/17 5:04 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi The cost difference between a complete oscillator package and a simple crystal is tiny. The osc is often cheaper if you include board space or engineering time. Purchased in volume, the difference it the price of a crystal vs a complete XO is enormous.

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

behalf of Richard (Rick) Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which was to obsolete their crysta

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/14/17 12:19 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: I think what he means is that the typical device sold today has four terminals not two. It looks like a crystal because it is inside a little silver can but has four lead wires Power, ground and "output" and the fourth lead might not be used. It is

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

e >> crystals? >> >> >> -=Bryan=- >> >> >> >> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) >> Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com> >> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM &

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi > On Mar 14, 2017, at 4:44 AM, Hal Murray wrote: > > > artgod...@gmail.com said: >> I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't need >> to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to make >> something crude that will

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

For a sinewave oscillator http://www.wenzel.com/wp-content/uploads/xtalosc.pdf is a start for fundamental crystals. However the npn transistor operates a little too close to saturation for my liking. A small change to the biasing of the npn will fix this. With overtone crystal operation mode

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

For interest, and as part of art project involving crystals. I want to show a less third-age usage than is common in that space :).Acceleration effect on frequency may also be featured. No way would I do it for cost or quality. Like you, I normally use packaged oscillators for most things -

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

have outnumbered loose > crystals? > > > -=Bryan=- > > > > From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) > Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com> > Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measureme

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

artgod...@gmail.com said: > I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't need > to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to make > something crude that will resonate. Are you doing this for fun or ??? Feasible? Sure. Cheaper? That depends.

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b--FKHCFjOM On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Hal Murray wrote: > > jim...@earthlink.net said: > > what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino, > for > > instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi If your application is happy with 0.1% accuracy, you use a simple crystal that costs < 10 cents. If your application requires <0.001% accuracy, you probably are better off using a packaged oscillator. Bob > On Mar 13, 2017, at 8:11 PM, Hal Murray wrote: > > >

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi If you are not to picky, you can buy crystals in bulk for < 5 cents each. Why make them from scratch? Best guess is that in small volume, they will cost you > $20 each to make. Labor cost something …. Bob > On Mar 13, 2017, at 9:09 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote: > > I'm

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

zero-charlie > > -Original Message- From: Bob Camp > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 5:19 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals > > Hi > > …. ummm …. errr … Add to that: > > X-ray gear to

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

I'm not after quality - I do have an application in mind but it doesn't need to compete with mass production. Just wondering if it's feasible to make something crude that will resonate. On 14 Mar 2017 1:00 a.m., "Hal Murray" wrote: jim...@earthlink.net said: > what

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 +, you wrote: >What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? There was a WWII era "how they spend your war bonds" film that showed the process pretty well. Diamond saws to cut the raw quartz, X-ray diffraction to find the proper axes prior to

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

for a filter project and it was amazing the amount of stuff they had there. 73/jeff/ac0c www.ac0c.com alpha-charlie-zero-charlie -Original Message- From: Bob Camp Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 5:19 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

jim...@earthlink.net said: > what about cheap crystals for microcontrollers.. I think the Arduino, for > instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator electronics are inside the > Atmel part) I assume you can save a few pennies if you use a raw crystal rather than an oscillator. That

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi > On Mar 13, 2017, at 7:12 PM, jimlux wrote: > > On 3/13/17 3:19 PM, Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> …. ummm …. errr … Add to that: >> >> X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are >> sawing >> Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/13/17 2:59 PM, Alan Melia wrote: .and some micro-soldering kit to attach the plated unit to the lead frame. Our factory used homemade hot air jets, I have no idea what the solder was prob LMP. Lapping a single blank is difficult, one tends to get rounded edges(even with the best

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/13/17 3:19 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi …. ummm …. errr … Add to that: X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are sawing Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat) Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are lapped

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Jim Harman wrote: > Some of the Arduino boards, the Leonardo for example, use ceramic > resonators, Sorry, the Leonardo does have a crystal. The original Uno had a resonator. -- --Jim Harman

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

on of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage. What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David < david.vanh...@backcou

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi …. ummm …. errr … Add to that: X-ray gear to work out the orientation of the (possibly natural) bar you are sawing Lapping gear to get the blanks flat (as optically flat) Automated / sorting X-ray gear to figure out what’s what after they are lapped Rounding equipment to turn the square

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 4:53 PM, jimlux wrote: > I think the Arduino, for instance, uses a crystal (and the oscillator > electronics are inside the Atmel part) You're right. Some of the Arduino boards, the Leonardo for example, use ceramic resonators, which make them

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

la Kinali" <att...@kinali.ch> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 + Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com>

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/13/17 11:29 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: With a chunk of raw crystal material and a lapidary saw, blanks can be cut. Typical FT-243/U crystal construction technology up through the 1950's:

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage. What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David < david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.c

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/13/17 10:09 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: A complete oscillator consists of the crystal integrated with the electronics. A loose crystal is just a resonator, and the buyer has to supply his own electronics. You rarely see the latter any more in applications other than oven

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/13/17 8:01 AM, Adrian Godwin wrote: The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage. What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? Lapping compound and a hunk of glass/polished granite? You can probably buy blanks that are approximately the right

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:01:39 + Adrian Godwin wrote: > What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? The equipment is quite minimal: * A diamond precision saw to cut the crystals * Some tool to check the accuracy of the cut (orientation and thicknes)

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

hard > > (Rick) Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 > > PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals > > > > I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which >

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

With a chunk of raw crystal material and a lapidary saw, blanks can be cut. Typical FT-243/U crystal construction technology up through the 1950's: http://www.rfcafe.com/references/popular-electronics/after-class-Quartz-Crystals-january-1957-popular-electronics.htm It was very common for hams

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

m> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 8:01:39 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage. What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? On Mon, Mar 1

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

of Richard (Rick) Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com> Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which was to obsolete their crystal controlled r

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

The article mentions that the business started in his father's garage. What minimal equipment would you need to make your own crystals ? On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Van Horn, David < david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.com> wrote: > > Probably true for many things. My current design has six

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Probably true for many things. My current design has six crystals, and exactly none of them could be replaced by an oscillator module. Power and space considerations mostly. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

__ > From: time-nuts <time-nuts-boun...@febo.com> on behalf of Richard (Rick) > Karlquist <rich...@karlquist.com> > Sent: March 12, 2017 4:38 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals > > I

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

ussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios. That's over 40 years ago. The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or s

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

I got a job in 1975 to design Konel's first synthesized radio, which was to obsolete their crystal controlled radios. That's over 40 years ago. The other trend (not mentioned) is that since 20 years ago or so, complete oscillator sales have vastly outnumbered sales of loose crystals. Rick N6RK

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi Jim, On 03/12/2017 10:39 PM, jimlux wrote: On 3/12/17 5:53 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: I don't like how higher Q is confused with higher frequency stability. As most here should know, it is a bit of a mix-up of two different stability aspects. That is indeed a "time-nuts" vs

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/12/17 5:53 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: I don't like how higher Q is confused with higher frequency stability. As most here should know, it is a bit of a mix-up of two different stability aspects. That is indeed a "time-nuts" vs "frequency-nuts" level distinction.

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi, On 03/11/2017 10:56 PM, Bryan _ wrote: Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is interesting, classic. http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/ At the bottom is a 1964 U.S. Air Force training film:

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Hi International’s main business was re-channeling non-synthesized radios and replacing broken crystals in various pieces of com gear. It’s been a *lot* of years since the last of the non-synthesized radios came out. The business probably has been dropping off pretty steadily for many

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

On 3/11/17 4:30 PM, Scott McGrath wrote: From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit, Or, he wants to retire and nobody wants to carry it on. His dad started it in 1950, the son picked it up in 1970. It's 47 years later. Which is stupid given that much

Re: [time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

>From the tone of the letter it sounds like the bank cancelled line of credit, > Which is stupid given that much of their line is military which is getting a huge boost in spending > On Mar 11, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bryan _ wrote: > > Disappearing or manufacturing just

[time-nuts] Bye-Bye Crystals

Disappearing or manufacturing just moving overseas?. Video at the bottom is interesting, classic. http://hackaday.com/2017/03/11/so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-crystals/ -=Bryan=- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go