Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
On 5/06/2012 4:52 PM, Jerry Mulchin wrote: Tim, Can you describe your test setup used to measure the Phase Noise Plots you show in the links provided. Are you using the 8566B to measure the Phase Noise directly, or are you using a Phase Noise test set to make the measurements? Hi Jerry, I'm using the 8566B to do the tests with the GPIB tool kit http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/readme.htm regards Tim -- VK2XTT :: QF56if :: BMARC :: WIA :: AMSAT-VK :: AMSAT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
Tim, Can you describe your test setup used to measure the Phase Noise Plots you show in the links provided. Are you using the 8566B to measure the Phase Noise directly, or are you using a Phase Noise test set to make the measurements? Thanks Jerry At 08:33 PM 6/4/2012, you wrote: On 3/06/2012 7:19 PM, Javier Herrero wrote: [snip] I don't remember if someone did a comparison in PN performance between the two FE-5680A flavours. Hi Javier, I've recently done precisily that. See enclosed graph. As for using RB's and Tbolts for LO locking of mwave synths, a lot of discussion and testing is occurring on our VK logger, specifically at URL http://www.vklogger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40t=10180 and http://www.vklogger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40t=10229 regards Tim -- VK2XTT :: QF56if :: BMARC :: WIA :: AMSAT-VK :: AMSAT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Jerry Mulchin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
Most Rb's can be improved when it comes to phase noise even a FRK-H, some by replacing the internal oscillators, some by adding an external analog loop. How ever multiplying to 10 GHz and you have to contend with the 60 db deterioration. One way around is higher frequency XTAL or SAW oscillator, but that is an off list discussion. Bert Kehren In a message dated 6/4/2012 11:35:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, t...@skybase.net writes: On 3/06/2012 7:19 PM, Javier Herrero wrote: [snip] I don't remember if someone did a comparison in PN performance between the two FE-5680A flavours. Hi Javier, I've recently done precisily that. See enclosed graph. As for using RB's and Tbolts for LO locking of mwave synths, a lot of discussion and testing is occurring on our VK logger, specifically at URL http://www.vklogger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40t=10180 and http://www.vklogger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40t=10229 regards Tim -- VK2XTT :: QF56if :: BMARC :: WIA :: AMSAT-VK :: AMSAT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
Tim, Can you describe your test setup used to measure the Phase Noise Plots you show in the links provided. Are you using the 8566B to measure the Phase Noise directly, or are you using a Phase Noise test set to make the measurements? Thanks Jerry At 08:33 PM 6/4/2012, you wrote: On 3/06/2012 7:19 PM, Javier Herrero wrote: [snip] I don't remember if someone did a comparison in PN performance between the two FE-5680A flavours. Hi Javier, I've recently done precisily that. See enclosed graph. As for using RB's and Tbolts for LO locking of mwave synths, a lot of discussion and testing is occurring on our VK logger, specifically at URL http://www.vklogger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40t=10180 and http://www.vklogger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40t=10229 regards Tim -- VK2XTT :: QF56if :: BMARC :: WIA :: AMSAT-VK :: AMSAT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Jerry Mulchin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
Jerry, Chris, it's all relative, while the Lpro may be a good Rb standard, it's phase noise is not that good really. You list: -96dBc/Hz @ 10Hz, -138dBc/Hz @ 100Hz, -152dBc/Hz @ 1KHz offsets For the Lpro. The new Jackson Labs Technologies LN CSAC GPSDO with SC-cut phase noise and ADEV filter achieves the following: -138dBc/Hz @ 10Hz, -148dBc/Hz @ 100Hz, -152dBc/Hz @ 1KHz offsets. At 1Hz offset we see -105dBc/Hz and better on that unit. The FEI-5680A Rubidium that we discussed here some time ago has a much worse phase noise plot of course, because the 10MHz is generated digitally through a DDS, not a 10MHz crystal oscillator.. It all depends on your requirements, and your budget.. I think the Z3801A (or it's brother the 58503A) is still one of the lowest phase noise and best ADEV GPSDO on the surplus market if you get a typical unit, and if you can locate one. bye, Said From: Jerry Mulchin _jmulchin@cox.net_ (mailto:jmulc...@cox.net) Date: June 2, 2012 16:44:14 PDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (newbie). Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) Chris, To answer your question regarding using a Rubidium standard as a frequency reference for your Transverters. GPS really has nothing to do the main requirement regarding Phase Noise and your Transceivers. But the 10MHz oscillator inside the Rubidium standard is the item that will be the Phase Noise problem if you get the wrong Rubidium standard. There are cheap Rubidiums and there are good Rubidium standards to consider. An LPRO-101 is actually a very good Rubidium standard, and exhibits Phase Noise values of -96dBc/Hz @ 10Hz, -138dBc/Hz @ 100Hz, -152dBc/Hz @ 1KHz offsets from carrier. This is what I use for my 10GHz Transverter reference, but I don't lock it to GPS when in the field. LPRO-101's can be gotten pretty reasonably. Locking the LPRO-101 to a GPS will require more support circuitry, and most of the folks on this list can help you with that. Also, Thunderbolt GPS disciplined units are nice, but I do not know the Phase Noise numbers of a typical Thunderbolt unit. Others here probably know the answer to that. The important thing to remember is you don't what to use 10MHz oscillators that have poor Phase Noise performance as it will effect your weak signal capability if you use a poor Phase Noise oscillator. Jerry At 03:05 PM 6/2/2012, you wrote: If you want a frequency reference. There is nothing better than GPS. In fact it you bought a Rubidium you would still need the GPS so you could calibrate its frequency. Some GPSes might be noisy but then you can lock a good double oven crystal oscillator to it and have what they call a GPS disciplined crystal oscillator or GPSDO. On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Chris Wilson _chris@chriswilson.tv_ (mailto:ch...@chriswilson.tv) wrote: I am looking to get a frequency standard for my amateur radio shack, initially for verifying test gear readings, but later as a standard to lock receiver and transmitter oscillators to. I was going to buy a GPS frequency standard but a friend warned me these may have noise issues when I come to use it with an oscillator in RX / TX applications. It's not something I had considered, so what's the score here please? Should I not buy a GPS standard? Thanks. Any links to known safe suitable purchase sources from personal experience welcome, either here or by PM or e-mail. I am in the UK. -- Best regards, Chris Wilson _mailto:chris@chriswilson.tv_ (mailto:ch...@chriswilson.tv) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) To unsubscribe, go to _https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_ (https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts) and follow the instructions there. -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) To unsubscribe, go to _https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_ (https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts) and follow the instructions there. Jerry Mulchin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) To unsubscribe, go to _https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_ (https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts) and follow the instructions there. = ___ time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
Hello, El 03/06/2012 10:46, saidj...@aol.com escribió: The FEI-5680A Rubidium that we discussed here some time ago has a much worse phase noise plot of course, because the 10MHz is generated digitally through a DDS, not a 10MHz crystal oscillator.. There is a version that generates 10MHz directly through DDS, but the particular version we recently discussed a lot about generates the 10MHz signal from a 60MHz oscillator, and the DDS is used for generating the ~5.3125MHz signal for mixing with the 114th harmonic of the 60MHz to obtain the Rb resonance frequency. I don't remember if someone did a comparison in PN performance between the two FE-5680A flavours. Regards, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
Said, Thanks for the info and congrats on the stats from the Jackson Labs stuff. You mentioned the older HP Z3801. I wonder if you (or others) happen to have comparison numbers on the Z3816A with the MTI 260 oscillator or the Z3805 with (I think) the same oscillator. I thought I heard the MTI 260 might be slightly better than the 10811 but can't recall if anyone here actually made measurements, Not to say that any of the HP Z stuff is seen for sale often these days. But I have one of each of the above mentioned. Guess it may be close to the *time* where I should take the *time* to build or set up a system where I could get trustworthy measurements of these *timing* quality things myself. I keep reading but never seem to find the time to actually do it. -Rex On 6/3/2012 1:46 AM, saidj...@aol.com wrote: Jerry, Chris, it's all relative, while the Lpro may be a good Rb standard, it's phase noise is not that good really. You list: -96dBc/Hz @ 10Hz, -138dBc/Hz @ 100Hz, -152dBc/Hz @ 1KHz offsets For the Lpro. The new Jackson Labs Technologies LN CSAC GPSDO with SC-cut phase noise and ADEV filter achieves the following: -138dBc/Hz @ 10Hz, -148dBc/Hz @ 100Hz, -152dBc/Hz @ 1KHz offsets. At 1Hz offset we see -105dBc/Hz and better on that unit. The FEI-5680A Rubidium that we discussed here some time ago has a much worse phase noise plot of course, because the 10MHz is generated digitally through a DDS, not a 10MHz crystal oscillator.. It all depends on your requirements, and your budget.. I think the Z3801A (or it's brother the 58503A) is still one of the lowest phase noise and best ADEV GPSDO on the surplus market if you get a typical unit, and if you can locate one. bye, Said From: Jerry Mulchin_jmulchin@cox.net_ (mailto:jmulc...@cox.net) Date: June 2, 2012 16:44:14 PDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (newbie). Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) Chris, To answer your question regarding using a Rubidium standard as a frequency reference for your Transverters. GPS really has nothing to do the main requirement regarding Phase Noise and your Transceivers. But the 10MHz oscillator inside the Rubidium standard is the item that will be the Phase Noise problem if you get the wrong Rubidium standard. There are cheap Rubidiums and there are good Rubidium standards to consider. An LPRO-101 is actually a very good Rubidium standard, and exhibits Phase Noise values of -96dBc/Hz @ 10Hz, -138dBc/Hz @ 100Hz, -152dBc/Hz @ 1KHz offsets from carrier. This is what I use for my 10GHz Transverter reference, but I don't lock it to GPS when in the field. LPRO-101's can be gotten pretty reasonably. Locking the LPRO-101 to a GPS will require more support circuitry, and most of the folks on this list can help you with that. Also, Thunderbolt GPS disciplined units are nice, but I do not know the Phase Noise numbers of a typical Thunderbolt unit. Others here probably know the answer to that. The important thing to remember is you don't what to use 10MHz oscillators that have poor Phase Noise performance as it will effect your weak signal capability if you use a poor Phase Noise oscillator. Jerry At 03:05 PM 6/2/2012, you wrote: If you want a frequency reference. There is nothing better than GPS. In fact it you bought a Rubidium you would still need the GPS so you could calibrate its frequency. Some GPSes might be noisy but then you can lock a good double oven crystal oscillator to it and have what they call a GPS disciplined crystal oscillator or GPSDO. On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Chris Wilson_chris@chriswilson.tv_ (mailto:ch...@chriswilson.tv) wrote: I am looking to get a frequency standard for my amateur radio shack, initially for verifying test gear readings, but later as a standard to lock receiver and transmitter oscillators to. I was going to buy a GPS frequency standard but a friend warned me these may have noise issues when I come to use it with an oscillator in RX / TX applications. It's not something I had considered, so what's the score here please? Should I not buy a GPS standard? Thanks. Any links to known safe suitable purchase sources from personal experience welcome, either here or by PM or e-mail. I am in the UK. -- Best regards, Chris Wilson _mailto:chris@chriswilson.tv_ (mailto:ch...@chriswilson.tv) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) To unsubscribe, go to _https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_ (https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts) and follow
Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
hello Rex, from what I have seen the lowest noise is available on the Z3801 with 10811. I also have a Z3815 with E1938A oscillator, but the 3801 is much less noisy and more stable. Don't have a 3816 or 3805 to test against. Keep in mind that there is a large performance variation from unit to unit as can be seen in TVB's Z3801A performance plots.. there are a good number of Z3801As modified to be 58503As on Ebay now. Got one from Yinxh some time ago, and that unit took over one year to fully settle down! Now I am consistently getting xE-013 ADEV from 0.1s to a couple 100s out of it. PN is excellent on that unit too. bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Jun 3, 2012, at 2:21, Rex r...@sonic.net wrote: Said, Thanks for the info and congrats on the stats from the Jackson Labs stuff. You mentioned the older HP Z3801. I wonder if you (or others) happen to have comparison numbers on the Z3816A with the MTI 260 oscillator or the Z3805 with (I think) the same oscillator. I thought I heard the MTI 260 might be slightly better than the 10811 but can't recall if anyone here actually made measurements, Not to say that any of the HP Z stuff is seen for sale often these days. But I have one of each of the above mentioned. Guess it may be close to the *time* where I should take the *time* to build or set up a system where I could get trustworthy measurements of these *timing* quality things myself. I keep reading but never seem to find the time to actually do it. -Rex On 6/3/2012 1:46 AM, saidj...@aol.com wrote: Jerry, Chris, it's all relative, while the Lpro may be a good Rb standard, it's phase noise is not that good really. You list: -96dBc/Hz @ 10Hz, -138dBc/Hz @ 100Hz, -152dBc/Hz @ 1KHz offsets For the Lpro. The new Jackson Labs Technologies LN CSAC GPSDO with SC-cut phase noise and ADEV filter achieves the following: -138dBc/Hz @ 10Hz, -148dBc/Hz @ 100Hz, -152dBc/Hz @ 1KHz offsets. At 1Hz offset we see -105dBc/Hz and better on that unit. The FEI-5680A Rubidium that we discussed here some time ago has a much worse phase noise plot of course, because the 10MHz is generated digitally through a DDS, not a 10MHz crystal oscillator.. It all depends on your requirements, and your budget.. I think the Z3801A (or it's brother the 58503A) is still one of the lowest phase noise and best ADEV GPSDO on the surplus market if you get a typical unit, and if you can locate one. bye, Said From: Jerry Mulchin_jmulchin@cox.net_ (mailto:jmulc...@cox.net) Date: June 2, 2012 16:44:14 PDT To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (newbie). Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement _time-nuts@febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts@febo.com) Chris, To answer your question regarding using a Rubidium standard as a frequency reference for your Transverters. GPS really has nothing to do the main requirement regarding Phase Noise and your Transceivers. But the 10MHz oscillator inside the Rubidium standard is the item that will be the Phase Noise problem if you get the wrong Rubidium standard. There are cheap Rubidiums and there are good Rubidium standards to consider. An LPRO-101 is actually a very good Rubidium standard, and exhibits Phase Noise values of -96dBc/Hz @ 10Hz, -138dBc/Hz @ 100Hz, -152dBc/Hz @ 1KHz offsets from carrier. This is what I use for my 10GHz Transverter reference, but I don't lock it to GPS when in the field. LPRO-101's can be gotten pretty reasonably. Locking the LPRO-101 to a GPS will require more support circuitry, and most of the folks on this list can help you with that. Also, Thunderbolt GPS disciplined units are nice, but I do not know the Phase Noise numbers of a typical Thunderbolt unit. Others here probably know the answer to that. The important thing to remember is you don't what to use 10MHz oscillators that have poor Phase Noise performance as it will effect your weak signal capability if you use a poor Phase Noise oscillator. Jerry At 03:05 PM 6/2/2012, you wrote: If you want a frequency reference. There is nothing better than GPS. In fact it you bought a Rubidium you would still need the GPS so you could calibrate its frequency. Some GPSes might be noisy but then you can lock a good double oven crystal oscillator to it and have what they call a GPS disciplined crystal oscillator or GPSDO. On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Chris Wilson_chris@chriswilson.tv_ (mailto:ch...@chriswilson.tv) wrote: I am looking to get a frequency standard for my amateur radio shack, initially for verifying test gear readings, but later as a standard to lock receiver and
Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
Hello Javier, I have a couple from that last Ebay lot , and the phase noise/spurs are so bad on these that I figured the 10MHz must have been generated by a DDS. I posted the phase noise and ADEV plots of this unit to this list earlier this year. bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Jun 3, 2012, at 2:19, Javier Herrero jherr...@hvsistemas.es wrote: Hello, El 03/06/2012 10:46, saidj...@aol.com escribió: The FEI-5680A Rubidium that we discussed here some time ago has a much worse phase noise plot of course, because the 10MHz is generated digitally through a DDS, not a 10MHz crystal oscillator.. There is a version that generates 10MHz directly through DDS, but the particular version we recently discussed a lot about generates the 10MHz signal from a 60MHz oscillator, and the DDS is used for generating the ~5.3125MHz signal for mixing with the 114th harmonic of the 60MHz to obtain the Rb resonance frequency. I don't remember if someone did a comparison in PN performance between the two FE-5680A flavours. Regards, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
Hi, Said, I think that all of the last cheap ebay lot are of the second variety (60MHz osc + 5.3125MHz DDS, very narrow tuning range through serial port message). I remember your phase noise and adev plots on them. But I don't know if the first variety (the ones with a 55MHz or so crystal oscillator and 10MHz DDS-derived output, with wide range of frequency settability through the serial port) are better or worse in the phase noise, spurious and adev sections compared with the second one. Regards, Javier El 03/06/2012 21:35, Said Jackson escribió: Hello Javier, I have a couple from that last Ebay lot , and the phase noise/spurs are so bad on these that I figured the 10MHz must have been generated by a DDS. I posted the phase noise and ADEV plots of this unit to this list earlier this year. bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Jun 3, 2012, at 2:19, Javier Herrerojherr...@hvsistemas.es wrote: Hello, El 03/06/2012 10:46, saidj...@aol.com escribió: The FEI-5680A Rubidium that we discussed here some time ago has a much worse phase noise plot of course, because the 10MHz is generated digitally through a DDS, not a 10MHz crystal oscillator.. There is a version that generates 10MHz directly through DDS, but the particular version we recently discussed a lot about generates the 10MHz signal from a 60MHz oscillator, and the DDS is used for generating the ~5.3125MHz signal for mixing with the 114th harmonic of the 60MHz to obtain the Rb resonance frequency. I don't remember if someone did a comparison in PN performance between the two FE-5680A flavours. Regards, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Javier Herrero Chief Technology Officer EMAIL: jherr...@hvsistemas.com HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806 Los Charcones, 17 FAX: +34 949 336 792 19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] GPS and Rubidium frequency standards and noise question (new...
Hi I think that if you switch to an averaging of a few seconds from per pixel the plot of frequency difference will look a bit different. The phase perturbations from DDS will still be there, and they are an issue. They just many not be as dramatic as that plot implies. Bob On Jun 3, 2012, at 8:14 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The FEI 5680A we recently discussed uses the DDS to generate part of the excitation to the filter. Fine stepping the excitation frequency. The output is taken off the 60 MHz and divided by 6. I noticed the changes when doing my aging tests but some disagreed. The attached I think it is from John Miles shows it very clearly and what is needed is a clean up loop with some thing like a MV89. I think the source is the control loop which most likely is digital. FRS and FRK are analog but will also improve with an external OCXO. Bert Kehren The FEI-5680A Rubidium that we discussed here some time ago has a much worse phase noise plot of course, because the 10MHz is generated digitally through a DDS, not a 10MHz crystal oscillator.. There is a version that generates 10MHz directly through DDS, but the particular version we recently discussed a lot about generates the 10MHz signal from a 60MHz oscillator, and the DDS is used for generating the ~5.3125MHz signal for mixing with the 114th harmonic of the 60MHz to obtain the Rb resonance frequency. I don't remember if someone did a comparison in PN performance between the two FE-5680A flavours. Regards, Javier freqdiff.png___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
