Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
Ulf - Yes, this question, about the HP 105B, was asked in September 2016. https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-September/100436.html In Europe, it is virtually impossible (RoHS) to acquire NiCad batteries for past decade — unless you are an exempt entity. IF you desire a DIY Build, examine these three (3) popular ICs for charger management. Application Notes for these parts have typical circuits. TI BQ24401 Switch-mode NiCd/NiMH Battery Charger http://www.ti.com/product/BQ24401/technicaldocuments Maxim (old Dallas Semi) DS2715 NiMH Battery Pack Charge Controller https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/power/battery-management/DS2715.html Analog Devices (old Linear Tech) LTC4060 Standalone Linear NiMH/NiCd Fast Battery Charger http://www.linear.com/product/LTC4060 Jameco sells the old Linear Tech charger ICs. https://www.jameco.com/shop/keyword=Nimh-Battery-Charger-Ic === > I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCad battery pack used in the > HP 105B. > One such 105 that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with > the batteries "happily boiling away". > So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to use without too much > re-design of the charging circuitry? > Ulf Kylenfall, SM6GXV Sent from iPad Air ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
I have two Powerex MH-808M for sixteen cells. I have two 105B and I have modified them with a custom connector and holder so that I can remove the cells and charge them in the 808, then put them back, disconnecting the trickle charger. Ian -- ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
Memory... :) I've induced the "memory effect" in NIMH cells and Nicad, and lead acid. Simply charge to the same point, then discharge to the same depth of discharge about 10x. In the next cycle, discharge completely and you'll see the bump in pack voltage where you had discharged to previously. Now charge and discharge again and note that the vaunted memory effect is gone. In real use, you are highly unlikely to charge and discharge precisely to the same point that many times. NASA uncovered this in testing batteries for satellites (very special NICAD batteries) where due to solar cells and orbital mechanics, plus very consistent loads, they were seeing the problem. Normal use, where the pack is discharged to different points (a few percent different) is all you need to prevent this. -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Brooke Clarke Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 11:48 AM To: Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack? Hi Ulf: There's another problem with switching to Ni-MH and that's related to the heat generated when charging them. You can charge Ni-Cad batteries without monitoring the pack temperature, but with Ni-MH cells you must monitor the pack temperature. I would suggest avoiding the Ni-MH option. Either: 1. Just use modern Ni-Cad cells, no memory and much higher capacity, no change to the charger, or . . 2. Update to one of the Li-xxx chemistries with a totally new charger. These batteries have much lower self discharge rates and higher energy density. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html Original Message > > Gentlemen, > I may have asked this question before... > I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in the > HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with > thebatteries "happily boiling away". > So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much re-design > of the charging circuitry? > Ulf Kylenfall > SM6GXV > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
In a former job I designed battery charging systems for NIMH cells. Some cells will TOLERATE long term trickle, some spec ZERO trickle current. Get a data sheet and read it. Violating that spec, or low quality cells can get you a battery pack that will arbitrarily, and without even being connected to anything, suddenly overhead and spew boiling lye out the end. One prototype did this with the pack literally sitting disconnected on the desk while we were out for dinner. It took a few layers off the PCB that was sitting nearby. I had specified cells from a Japanese company, but the accountants insisted I use cells from China at half the price. Cost us a 100% recall of battery packs. -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sims Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 10:54 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack? Since NiMH cells typically have over twice the capacity of NiCad cells, a C/10 charger will charge them at less than C/20.It's best to trickle charge NiMH cells in the C/30 to C/40 range, but depending on the cell C/20 might be OK. Measure your charge current on a discharged pack and calculate the C rate. Tweak the charger supply for a C/30 to C/40 rate. -- NIMH is not necessarily a drop in. While it will work fine in the short term, crude chargers that implement constant trickle like C/10 can be (emphasis) tolerated (/emphasis) by some NIMH cells, and totally out of spec for others. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
Hi Ulf: There's another problem with switching to Ni-MH and that's related to the heat generated when charging them. You can charge Ni-Cad batteries without monitoring the pack temperature, but with Ni-MH cells you must monitor the pack temperature. I would suggest avoiding the Ni-MH option. Either: 1. Just use modern Ni-Cad cells, no memory and much higher capacity, no change to the charger, or . . 2. Update to one of the Li-xxx chemistries with a totally new charger. These batteries have much lower self discharge rates and higher energy density. -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html Original Message Gentlemen, I may have asked this question before... I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away". So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much re-design of the charging circuitry? Ulf Kylenfall SM6GXV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
Since NiMH cells typically have over twice the capacity of NiCad cells, a C/10 charger will charge them at less than C/20.It's best to trickle charge NiMH cells in the C/30 to C/40 range, but depending on the cell C/20 might be OK. Measure your charge current on a discharged pack and calculate the C rate. Tweak the charger supply for a C/30 to C/40 rate. -- NIMH is not necessarily a drop in. While it will work fine in the short term, crude chargers that implement constant trickle like C/10 can be (emphasis) tolerated (/emphasis) by some NIMH cells, and totally out of spec for others. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
The local BatteriesPlus store rebuilt my 105B pack for about $150 - there was quite a bit of extra labor involved but the pack is completely to spec except it has more capacity than original On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Van Horn, David <david.vanh...@backcountryaccess.com> wrote: > > Nicads are still made. > > NIMH is not necessarily a drop in. While it will work fine in the short term, > crude chargers that implement constant trickle like C/10 can be (emphasis) > tolerated (/emphasis) by some NIMH cells, and totally out of spec for others. > > Modern chargers and NIMH is a good pairing, but if you must use the original > NICAD charger, you likely need real NICADs for a long term solution. > > > -Original Message- > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed > Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 10:00 AM > To: Ulf Kylenfall; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack? > > Ulf > A drop in replacement for nicads is nickle metal hydride or NiMh. Nicads are > still available but can be expensive. > The other comment I would make is the 1970s charging circuits were pretty > crude and lead to boiled batteries. > If your going to invest in an internal battery you may want to consider a > smarter modern charger. > There seems to be all sorts of very nice boards out of China for little cost. > Its amazing. > If you go the alternate approach you may consider Lithium batteries. > Drones seemed to have made a very nice market for batteries and smart > chargers. > Regards > Paul > WB8TSL > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts < > time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: > >> >> Gentlemen, >> I may have asked this question before... >> I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used >> in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a >> shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away". >> So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much >> re-design of the charging circuitry? >> Ulf Kylenfall >> SM6GXV >> >> ___ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow >> the instructions there. >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
Nicads are still made. NIMH is not necessarily a drop in. While it will work fine in the short term, crude chargers that implement constant trickle like C/10 can be (emphasis) tolerated (/emphasis) by some NIMH cells, and totally out of spec for others. Modern chargers and NIMH is a good pairing, but if you must use the original NICAD charger, you likely need real NICADs for a long term solution. -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 10:00 AM To: Ulf Kylenfall; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack? Ulf A drop in replacement for nicads is nickle metal hydride or NiMh. Nicads are still available but can be expensive. The other comment I would make is the 1970s charging circuits were pretty crude and lead to boiled batteries. If your going to invest in an internal battery you may want to consider a smarter modern charger. There seems to be all sorts of very nice boards out of China for little cost. Its amazing. If you go the alternate approach you may consider Lithium batteries. Drones seemed to have made a very nice market for batteries and smart chargers. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts < time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: > > Gentlemen, > I may have asked this question before... > I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used > in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a > shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away". > So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much > re-design of the charging circuitry? > Ulf Kylenfall > SM6GXV > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow > the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
Ulf A drop in replacement for nicads is nickle metal hydride or NiMh. Nicads are still available but can be expensive. The other comment I would make is the 1970s charging circuits were pretty crude and lead to boiled batteries. If your going to invest in an internal battery you may want to consider a smarter modern charger. There seems to be all sorts of very nice boards out of China for little cost. Its amazing. If you go the alternate approach you may consider Lithium batteries. Drones seemed to have made a very nice market for batteries and smart chargers. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Ulf Kylenfall via time-nuts < time-nuts@febo.com> wrote: > > Gentlemen, > I may have asked this question before... > I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in > the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with > thebatteries "happily boiling away". > So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much > re-design of the charging circuitry? > Ulf Kylenfall > SM6GXV > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
Gentlemen, I may have asked this question before... I am looking for a modern replacement for the NiCadbattery pack used in the HP 105B. One such 105that I salvaged have been standing on a shelf with thebatteries "happily boiling away". So, what kind of chemistry would be possible to usewithout to much re-design of the charging circuitry? Ulf Kylenfall SM6GXV ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
