Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

On 2/20/14, 11:35 PM, Hal Murray wrote: > Can somebody give me a lesson in the tradeoffs between number of bits and > sampling rate? Sure, the Shannon-Hartley Theorem. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theorem -- Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL 706 Flightline Drive Spring B

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Sorry for comming late to the party... This may be relevant: http://phk.freebsd.dk/loran-c/CW/ The basic idea is that you use a high-rate ADC, something like 1MS/s and then you average into for instance a 1msec = 1.000 samples circular buffer. That gives you a very narrow comb filter f

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

On 2/20/14, 11:08 PM, John Marvin wrote: > I have an OpenHPSDR Hermes and it has no problem receiving WWVB; > however, since I live in Fort Collins - Colorado, part of the success > might just be the strong signal. I wonder if I could just stick a piece > of wire into one of the channel inputs of

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

On 2/20/14, 10:35 PM, Graeme Zimmer wrote: >> I have a Kenwood TS-940S transceiver that can receive 60 kHz but I >> have never heard anything > > Where are you? It must be deaf as a post. Most ham receivers that purport to have coverage down there really don't. I thought my Flex 5000 should hea

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

On 2/20/14, 8:51 PM, Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > You can get parts in the 18 bit and up range for not a whole lot of money > with rational sample rates for a WWVB receiver. Analog Devices and Linear > Tech both make some interesting looking parts. They get you into the >=100 db > dynamic range

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers

t would stay firmly there owing to > that effect that occurs in which the effective loop bandwidth seems to > decrease once lock has been achieved. (WWVB's 45 degree phase shift > "ID" would always throw it for a loop, though - pun intended!) > > 73, > > Clint

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Am Fri, 21 Feb 2014 11:42:05 -0800 (PST) schrieb Bob Albert : > Oops yes I goofed, it's 500 MHz.  500 GHz is beyond state of the art > I would think. > Depends on your circuit development skills. Bipolars with gain at 500GHz are in principle possible, both in III/V-semiconductors (InP comes to min

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers

would always find its way into lock over > time - and then it would stay firmly there owing to that effect that occurs > in which the effective loop bandwidth seems to decrease once lock has been > achieved. (WWVB's 45 degree phase shift "ID" would always throw it for a > l

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers

paul swed To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Clint I don't know if it was me or not the said the doubling scheme did not work. It

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Hi Paul: The problem with GPS is you don't get the DST bits. For the OP that's OK, but if you want local time it isn't. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html paul swed wrote: Boy do I need to agree with Chris's comments above. If this

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Oops yes I goofed, it's 500 MHz.  500 GHz is beyond state of the art I would think. So GPS satellites are NIST in miniature it seems.  That's a lot of payload but now I have to see how to gain access to it. Bob On Friday, February 21, 2014 11:17 AM, Florian Teply wrote: Am Thu, 20 Feb 2

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Am Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:02:03 -0500 schrieb Chuck Harris : > At 60KHz, it shouldn't be out of range of most > general purpose CPU's, and even the most pathetic DSP. > Actually, I was referring to the price tag associated with having a custom chip done... ;-) I fully agree that the computing shouldn

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

ssage- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Albert Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 1:41 PM To: Chris Albertson; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT) Well if we are ta

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

500 GHz ? Really? How? Even counting 100 GHz is pushing it. You mean MHz, no? -John == > Well if we are talking about $50 then you have my attention. > > > No I am not afraid to use a soldering iron.  Amateur radio is not my main > interest here.  I have the same compulsion many o

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Well if we are talking about $50 then you have my attention. No I am not afraid to use a soldering iron.  Amateur radio is not my main interest here.  I have the same compulsion many of you out there seem to have, that if I can get more accuracy I want it.  I get that content smile on my face

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Bob Albert wrote: > I looked on line and it seems that these receivers are available for about > $150 and up. A little out of my price range right now but I'll keep my eyes > open. Watch the thread on this list about the Arduino based GPSDO. I think you can ge

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Back to basics, please.  Just how does GPS achieve its precision and accuracy? I presume everything must relate to NIST eventually. Bob On Friday, February 21, 2014 10:04 AM, paul swed wrote: Bob Yes they will. But there is a danger here when you say very precise. On Time-Nuts those are

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Bob Yes they will. But there is a danger here when you say very precise. On Time-Nuts those are very particular words that can carry a very long email thread. You say that the complete solutions are a bit out of range. Today there are lots of solutions if you want use a soldering iron. Each has the

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

I looked on line and it seems that these receivers are available for about $150 and up.  A little out of my price range right now but I'll keep my eyes open. I presume that with a reasonable antenna this unit will give me a very precise 10 MHz which I can use to synchronize my counter.  I am no

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Boy do I need to agree with Chris's comments above. If this is anything serious GPS really is the answer in all respects. Yes there is the risk of something happening. But amazingly a lot of the GPS receivers hold onto time pretty well even without GPS. The whole WWVB thing makes sense as a frequen

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Bob, If you are looking for an accurate, easy to use timing signal then GPS is the one you want. WWV and WWVB are what I call "legacy" signals and while they might be accurate when broadcast there is propagation delay and unknown atmospheric and ionospheric conditions. But the question is "How

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

At work we have various models of these "Selena" LED clock displays in the new control center and dispatching rooms: http://www.ledclocks.com/SELENA4x7.pdf We use the "bare unit" which just has a Cat5 Ethernet jack that syncs to a NTP clock on the network, but they also list options for WWVB, DCF

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Many ham transceivers can tune that low, but they are indeed completely deaf because the input filter (including coupling transformer) takes most of the signal out and the phase noise of the synthesizers cover the rest in noise. Didier KO4BB On February 20, 2014 10:35:06 PM CST, Graeme Zimmer

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

John Nantucket's been destroyed a sad day last May. But suppose the property value has gone up now. Regards Paul. On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 10:13 AM, J. Forster wrote: > Well, I used to be able to see LORAN pulses w/ a 3-inch diameter loop and > a Tek 7000-series 'scope. > > WWVB is hard to detec

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers

Indeed the old Don Lancaster and Ralph Burhan articles were key to my pre-time nuttery interests. But I am very interested in the psk31 approach. I actually hacked around a bit with several of the Ham programs. But none seemed to allow you to get to just the BPSK raw data. (I could have missed the

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Well, I used to be able to see LORAN pulses w/ a 3-inch diameter loop and a Tek 7000-series 'scope. WWVB is hard to detect w/ a 3-foot diameter HP shielded loop w/ integral preamp & 2 stages of mechanical filters. (HP 117A). The other half ogf the time it was undetectable. Paul S uses a loop that

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Hi Part of the typical receiving process is reducing the bandwidth. With a smaller bandwidth you can get away with a lower sample rate without loosing useful information. The normal approach is to drop the sample rate as you move through the system. When you drop the sample rate (say 4:1) you

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Hi Bob, Here are a couple of HP Appnotes, in PDF form, that will get you started in your quest. Some of the references to standard frequency transmissions may be somewhat outdated but the overall data is still valid. The first one is the original publication done in the early 1960's and the

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

NOTE: THE FIRST FIVE LINKS DID NOT SHOW AS COMPLETE ADDRESSES -- I AM NOT SURE WHY, SO YOU WILL HAVE TO COPY THE LINE AND INSERT INTO YOUR URL LINE. Hi Bob, Here are a couple of HP Appnotes, in PDF form, that will get you started in your quest. Some of the references to standard frequen

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

My TS-940S acts as though it receives okay at 60 kHz.  Not great sensitivity but it does receive. Most HP GPS receivers are expensive ($400?).  I was hoping to get some results with what I have, although I'm willing to cobble up some circuitry. I assume if I can receive the signal, I can figur

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

that is perhaps another 60kHz station they have one in England too! 73 KJ6HN Alex On 2/20/2014 8:35 PM, Graeme Zimmer wrote: I have a Kenwood TS-940S transceiver that can receive 60 kHz but I have never heard anything Where are you? It must be deaf as a post. I can hear WWVB in Australia ! (

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

jim...@earthlink.net said: > I sample at 100 kHz with 16 bits on a teensy3.. Neat. Thanks. How many effective bits? (when the input signal is 60 KHz it that matters) Can somebody give me a lesson in the tradeoffs between number of bits and sampling rate? I know of one special case. If y

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

One of the simplest ways to receive VLF signals is to buy a surplus "Selective Level Meter". They were an important piece of test equipment used by the analog line-line telephony people. Now of course, surplus to requirements. If you hunt around they can be found at very low prices. ...

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

> I am wondering if it's a tough road to get precise time and frequency. How precise do you want? How much money do you have? 1/2 :), but you are asking on the time-nuts list so you should expect answers like that. > I would love to discipline my counter and signal generator time bases to > m

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: "John Marvin" To: Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT) I have an OpenHP

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

I have an OpenHPSDR Hermes and it has no problem receiving WWVB; however, since I live in Fort Collins - Colorado, part of the success might just be the strong signal. I wonder if I could just stick a piece of wire into one of the channel inputs of a 192Khz sample rate audio interface (especial

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

On 2/20/14 4:40 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote: On Thursday, February 20, 2014, J. Forster wrote: The large amplitude swings happen on a very short time scale too. Certainly <1 second at times. 8-bits is 48 dB. 16-bit parts at 60kHz should be cheap now. Why bother with AGC? Just make sure the ADC do

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Hi Zim, With but a very few exceptions most broadband Amateur radfio trancievers do not do well below 500 KHz even though many allow for tuning below 500 KHz. BillWB6BNQ Graeme Zimmer wrote: I have a Kenwood TS-940S transceiver that can receive 60 kHz but I have never heard anything

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

I have a Kenwood TS-940S transceiver that can receive 60 kHz but I have never heard anything Where are you? It must be deaf as a post. I can hear WWVB in Australia ! (or at least I could till JJY-60 started in 2001) ... Zim ___ time-nuts m

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

I am wondering if it's a tough road to get precise time and frequency. I have a Kenwood TS-940S transceiver that can receive 60 kHz but I have never heard anything I could guess would be WWVB, just a fair amount of noise.  I did calibrate against 20 MHz WWV so that the beat was one every severa

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers

Its still interesting to read an article from Radio-Electronics Magazine with date stamp back to August 1973. In that article Don Lancaster explain few classical techniques how to handle WWVB band. Regards, V.P. On 2014-02-20 20:42, Clint Turner wrote: Several years ago I spotted a clever

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers

Several years ago I spotted a clever PIC-based software (DSP-ish) approach to WWVB modulation Perhaps it was mine? Years ago I designed a PSK31 decoder using a PIC. It worked very well for fixed frequencies, but I concluded that making it tunable was beyond the resources of the PICs then avai

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Request sent offline. Regards Paul On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Alex Pummer wrote: > Hi Paul, > how was that 60kHz RF front end made I was not wit the group six months > ego could you please send me a copy/ > thank you in advance > 73 > KJ6UHN > Alex > > > On 2/20/2014 1:29 PM, paul swed wr

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Hi Paul, how was that 60kHz RF front end made I was not wit the group six months ego could you please send me a copy/ thank you in advance 73 KJ6UHN Alex On 2/20/2014 1:29 PM, paul swed wrote: Chuck thats easy. Because I could make it work. :-) That said there was a post on time-nuts about LOR

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers

Clint I don't know if it was me or not the said the doubling scheme did not work. It does work but profoundly unreliably at least on the east coast. If you miss one cycle of carrier you loose phase making it useless. Jfor here on Time nuts and I tried a lot of things to get around the issues becaus

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Hi You can get parts in the 18 bit and up range for not a whole lot of money with rational sample rates for a WWVB receiver. Analog Devices and Linear Tech both make some interesting looking parts. They get you into the >=100 db dynamic range area. Even with a lower bit count part, you pick

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

On Thursday, February 20, 2014, J. Forster wrote: > The large amplitude swings happen on a very short time scale too. > Certainly <1 second at times. 8-bits is 48 dB. 16-bit parts at 60kHz should be cheap now. Why bother with AGC? Just make sure the ADC doesn't clip.

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers

Several years ago I spotted a clever PIC-based software (DSP-ish) approach to WWVB modulation - but it has thusfar defied my attempts to find it via Google. It was from the late 90's, early 2000's - and I may have it in an archive somewhere. The exact details escape me, but I believe that it

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Hi Paul, could you give a hint how long ago you released the front end to T_N? thanks Neville Michie (Sydney) On 21/02/2014, at 8:29 AM, paul swed wrote: > Chuck thats easy. Because I could make it work. :-) > That said there was a post on time-nuts about LORAN C receiver in software. > I respo

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

The large amplitude swings happen on a very short time scale too. Certainly <1 second at times. -John > Totally agree with you John as I learned. I knew it was a variable but I > have seen nights that were crazy and do fit your 40 db. I redesigned the > AGC to account for that in t

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Totally agree with you John as I learned. I knew it was a variable but I have seen nights that were crazy and do fit your 40 db. I redesigned the AGC to account for that in the fr front end actually. Regards Paul On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, J. Forster wrote: > At least on the Atlantic coas

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

At least on the Atlantic coast, the WWVB signal levels jump all over the place, certainly 40 dB and maybe more. If a receiver cannot deal w/ that w/o losing lock, it's nearly useless. OTOH, LORAN was always a whopping signal. -John > Chuck thats easy. Because I could make it

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Chuck thats easy. Because I could make it work. :-) That said there was a post on time-nuts about LORAN C receiver in software. I responded and have had the great pleasure of communicating with Matthias over the last two weeks. I have learned a lot already and he in return has a tested LORAN C rece

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

At 60KHz, it shouldn't be out of range of most general purpose CPU's, and even the most pathetic DSP. Why bother with a hardware solution when software can do it more easily? -Chuck Harris Florian Teply wrote: Well, if someone comes up with a circuit, I could check how much chip area that woul

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Paul Swed posted a working, mostly analog, design here maybe 6 months ago. -John = > Am Wed, 19 Feb 2014 22:45:56 -0800 > schrieb "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" : > >> >> >> On 2/19/2014 9:10 PM, John Marvin wrote: >> > I guess my question is who has the right to grant "exclusive >> > r

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Am Wed, 19 Feb 2014 22:45:56 -0800 schrieb "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" : > > > On 2/19/2014 9:10 PM, John Marvin wrote: > > I guess my question is who has the right to grant "exclusive > > rights" for the ability to decode a very simple protocol? Was a > > patent actually granted for this? > > >

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Sounds like a great Kickstarter project for some time nuttiers. "" On 2/19/2014 9:10 PM, John Marvin wrote: I guess my question is who has the right to grant "exclusive rights" for the ability to decode a very simple protocol? Was a patent actually granted for this? John They have exclusive

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Or a discreet receiver using time-nut available stuff. NIST should be the one that owns the format and they have published it. Regards Paul On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 1:45 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist < rich...@karlquist.com> wrote: > > > On 2/19/2014 9:10 PM, John Marvin wrote: > >> I guess my que

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

On 2/19/2014 9:10 PM, John Marvin wrote: I guess my question is who has the right to grant "exclusive rights" for the ability to decode a very simple protocol? Was a patent actually granted for this? John They have exclusive rights to the IP core for their IC. I guess someone else could des

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

I guess my question is who has the right to grant "exclusive rights" for the ability to decode a very simple protocol? Was a patent actually granted for this? John On 2/19/2014 4:49 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: It may be true that WWVB is sending out a new format, but the receivers for

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

actually they are supposed to have general availability by the end of Q1. Will see and have no idea about the cost. Not keeping my fingers crossed at all. Regards Paul. On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 7:18 PM, J. Forster wrote: > Wouldn't that be nice! > > They implement a new format which destroys muc

Re: [time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

Wouldn't that be nice! They implement a new format which destroys much of the installed infrastructure, then don't actually produce the 'better replacement'. How very LORAN! -John == > It may be true that WWVB is sending out a new > format, but the receivers for it don't seem

[time-nuts] New WWVB modulation format receivers (NOT)

It may be true that WWVB is sending out a new format, but the receivers for it don't seem to exist. The exclusive rights are held by this company, which is clearly on hold while it tries to find a customer who will pay for a wafer run: http://eversetclocks.com/ I've seen this sort of thing many