Re: [time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-12 Thread Magnus Danielson
Hal Murray wrote: Actually, you can see this as a Shannon information channel, analog or digital. What sort of bandwidth do I need to run a PLL over a long link? I assume it takes enough to cover all the sources of error: drift in the master drift in the local oscillator drift in the

Re: [time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-11 Thread Javier Serrano
Yes, exchanging data over a link will always harm its timing accuracy/precision performance, irrespective of whether you steer clocks (our case) or you exchange values or both. In fact, as I said to Jeremy in another thread I tend to see clock steering (i.e. PLL) as a limit case of interchanging

Re: [time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-11 Thread Magnus Danielson
Javier Serrano wrote: Yes, exchanging data over a link will always harm its timing accuracy/precision performance, irrespective of whether you steer clocks (our case) or you exchange values or both. In fact, as I said to Jeremy in another thread I tend to see clock steering (i.e. PLL) as a limit

Re: [time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-11 Thread Javier Serrano
Jim, I found a good reference for LOFAR clock and sync: http://www.astron.nl/sites/astron.nl/files/cms/PDF/LOFAR_Rep_057_clock_sync.pdf After a quick read, I think they would have been a perfect candidate to use WR, pity it's a bit late. Their system uses quite a lot of cables to achieve (worse

Re: [time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-11 Thread Hal Murray
Actually, you can see this as a Shannon information channel, analog or digital. What sort of bandwidth do I need to run a PLL over a long link? I assume it takes enough to cover all the sources of error: drift in the master drift in the local oscillator drift in the communication link

Re: [time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-11 Thread Javier Serrano
Not sure I understand all your questions. Concerning PLL bandwidth, assuming you want to minimize jitter you'd set the bandwidth so as to minimize the area below the phase noise vs. frequency plot. At high frequencies the phase noise is that of the VCO in the PLL, while at low frequencies the

Re: [time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-11 Thread Bruce Griffiths
Hal Murray wrote: Actually, you can see this as a Shannon information channel, analog or digital. What sort of bandwidth do I need to run a PLL over a long link? I assume it takes enough to cover all the sources of error: drift in the master drift in the local oscillator drift

[time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-10 Thread Javier Serrano
Dear nuts, We have this ongoing project whose aim is to synchronize roughly one thousand stations (typical distances around 10 km) to within 1 ns using Ethernet: http://www.ohwr.org/twiki/bin/view/OHR/WhiteRabbit/WhiteRabbit The idea is basically to use Synchronous Ethernet and something PTP-like

Re: [time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-10 Thread Lux, Jim (337C)
On 9/10/09 4:29 AM, Javier Serrano javier.serrano.par...@gmail.com wrote: Dear nuts, We have this ongoing project whose aim is to synchronize roughly one thousand stations (typical distances around 10 km) to within 1 ns using Ethernet:

Re: [time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-10 Thread Javier Serrano
Interesting. I've googled a bit and could not get precise details. Data in LOFAR seems to arrive at correlators using UDP packets, but I don't know if they get time-tagged in each station or in the correlator. No mention of fiber-delay compensation anywhere. I'll try to contact somebody from LOFAR

Re: [time-nuts] Project on precise timing over Ethernet

2009-09-10 Thread Magnus Danielson
Javier Serrano wrote: Dear nuts, We have this ongoing project whose aim is to synchronize roughly one thousand stations (typical distances around 10 km) to within 1 ns using Ethernet: http://www.ohwr.org/twiki/bin/view/OHR/WhiteRabbit/WhiteRabbit The idea is basically to use Synchronous