Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
Attila, I finally got around to reading the uBlox application note on their GPS receiver made specifically for timing. Did I miss it or do they not offer TRAIM in their receiver? I can't believe they would claim it to be for timing without TRAIM capability. Regards, Doug, K4CLE Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -Original message- From: Attila Kinali att...@kinali.ch To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sat, Oct 22, 2011 09:03:40 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:47:43 -0400 (EDT) saidj...@aol.com wrote: Hi Attila, In a message dated 10/20/2011 22:28:19 Pacific Daylight Time, att...@kinali.ch writes: That's also my impression. It was only after i had a longer discussion with one of the user support guys about the exact specs of the 6T that they measured and provided a document with more than just we have 12ns jitter. Though the document is still not what i expect, it's infinitely better than before. please share the document with us. Oh, it's easy to find in the appnotes section on the ublox homepage: http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/Timing_AppNote_%28GPS.G6- X-11007%29.pdf BTW: if someone who has a better understanding of timing issues could provide a list on how to improve that appnote, i'd be happy to contact ublox and work with them to get us more and better information. Attila Kinali -- It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no use without that foundation. -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:47:43 -0400 (EDT) saidj...@aol.com wrote: Hi Attila, In a message dated 10/20/2011 22:28:19 Pacific Daylight Time, att...@kinali.ch writes: That's also my impression. It was only after i had a longer discussion with one of the user support guys about the exact specs of the 6T that they measured and provided a document with more than just we have 12ns jitter. Though the document is still not what i expect, it's infinitely better than before. please share the document with us. Oh, it's easy to find in the appnotes section on the ublox homepage: http://www.u-blox.com/images/downloads/Product_Docs/Timing_AppNote_%28GPS.G6-X-11007%29.pdf BTW: if someone who has a better understanding of timing issues could provide a list on how to improve that appnote, i'd be happy to contact ublox and work with them to get us more and better information. Attila Kinali -- It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no use without that foundation. -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
Hi Attila, please share the document with us. Thanks, Said In a message dated 10/20/2011 22:28:19 Pacific Daylight Time, att...@kinali.ch writes: That's also my impression. It was only after i had a longer discussion with one of the user support guys about the exact specs of the 6T that they measured and provided a document with more than just we have 12ns jitter. Though the document is still not what i expect, it's infinitely better than before. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
-Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of saidj...@aol.com Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 11:48 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com; t...@leapsecond.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO Hi Attila, please share the document with us. Thanks, Said In a message dated 10/20/2011 22:28:19 Pacific Daylight Time, att...@kinali.ch writes: That's also my impression. It was only after i had a longer discussion with one of the user support guys about the exact specs of the 6T that they measured and provided a document with more than just we have 12ns jitter. Though the document is still not what i expect, it's infinitely better than before. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:21:31 -0700 Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com wrote: I suspect the u-blox units are more concerned with quick acquisition time and urban coverage than they are with nanoseconds, but if someone knows for sure, please tell. That's also my impression. It was only after i had a longer discussion with one of the user support guys about the exact specs of the 6T that they measured and provided a document with more than just we have 12ns jitter. Though the document is still not what i expect, it's infinitely better than before. Unfortunately, any questions that went more into the details (like is it possible to replace the TCXO with an external OCXO and where would you connect it?) were left unanswered. But, IMHO it's not that uBlox doesn't care about high precsion timing, but rather that they do not have any time-nut working for them, who could guide them into the right direction. Attila Kinali -- Why does it take years to find the answers to the questions one should have asked long ago? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
The new Garmin Etrex series has GPS and Glonass. /Björn Hello, Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 1:21:31, Tom Van Baak wrote: T So the antenna and receiver architecture is more complicated. Have you seen any T portable car navigation or cell phones with GLONASS? Smartphone with both nav systems (sorry, Russian page only): http://www.shop.mts.ru/phones/mts/glonass_945.html?utm_source=Google_Mutm_medium=cpcutm_campaign=MTC_phones -- Best regards, Yuri mailto:y...@ostry.ru ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
Le 19/10/2011 07:03, Yuri Ostry a écrit : Hello, Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 1:21:31, Tom Van Baak wrote: T So the antenna and receiver architecture is more complicated. Have you seen any T portable car navigation or cell phones with GLONASS? Smartphone with both nav systems (sorry, Russian page only): http://www.shop.mts.ru/phones/mts/glonass_945.html?utm_source=Google_Mutm_medium=cpcutm_campaign=MTC_phones and on the bay of course. see for example 150659387614, again a Russian product which even flags the sats with the national flag. Navigation only, but a nut might want to poke probes into it. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
Hello, Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 10:04:06, Mike Cook wrote: m and on the bay of course. see for example 150659387614, again a Russian m product which even flags the sats with the national flag. Navigation m only, but a nut might want to poke probes into it. Russian design based on one of existing navigator platforms (to assure availability of parts and lower costs), mass produced in China. GPS/GLONASS chipset is MStar (actually a design of russian company located in Saint Petersburg, Russia, that was purchased by MStar some time ago). OS - Windows Embedded, application software is russian. BTW, Looks like iPhone 4s is also GLONASS-capable. -- Best regards, Yuri mailto:y...@ostry.ru ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
BTW, Looks like iPhone 4s is also GLONASS-capable. http://9to5mac.com/2011/10/19/apple-appeases-russians-and-improves-gps-with-glonass-support/ -- Björn ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
Hi Tom, I am very eager to see lab reports of low-cost combined GPS+GLONASS receivers. I bet Said has good info on the u-blox 4T vs. 5T vs. 6T but now that he's selling to us instead of sharing with us, you've noticed how quiet he is about all this. Sorry, haven't posted as much info as I used to some time ago, I got burned by a jealous competitor going after one of our customers and feeding them nonsense about us. Some folks will desperately use any information they can to try to make themselves look better than they are.. And our baby is taking all of my spare time now :) I can safely say that the 6T works much better than 5T, much faster lock (~35s versus ~50s typically), significantly lower power consumption, higher sensitivity (a couple of dB), and some other intricate electrical advantages that I cannot detail unfortunately. Timing stability has not improved that much, the 5T is already quite excellent. A larger timing stability difference is visible in the non-timing, mobile receivers for 5S versus 6S for example. We support both versions moving forward (for legacy customers who do not want to change over). Using a timing receiver improves stability quite remarkably in static conditions, on good CSAC boards we see standard deviation as reported by GPSCon go down from say 11ns to less than 4ns when enabling Position Hold mode and with the antenna below foliage. Motorola M12M and M12+ are still the king of the hill unfortunately, even with 6T being available. But uBlox works wonderfully well in moving platforms when configured properly. They even support both Carrier Phase AND Doppler tracking, depending on the dynamic mode settings, which in our software can be selected automatically, or through simple SCPI commands. WAAS/EGNOS improves horizontal accuracy to typically better than 0.8 meters typically, even while moving in an airplane. Better horizontal accuracy means better timing accuracy of course, as one is essentially the reciprocal of the other.. Will report on the Glonass enabled parts when we have that information. It's too early for now. (Hey, no harm meant, but don't forget where you came from). Lastly, I can happily say that we are actively working on solutions that will appeal to Time Nuts, Hams, and others who are concerned about low cost but want great performance. More on this later this year.. bye, Said ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
El 19/10/2011 19:51, b...@lysator.liu.se escribió: BTW, Looks like iPhone 4s is also GLONASS-capable. http://9to5mac.com/2011/10/19/apple-appeases-russians-and-improves-gps-with-glonass-support/ And it seems to incorporate a nice multifunction IC http://www.broadcom.com/products/Bluetooth/Bluetooth-RF-Silicon-and-Software-Solutions/BCM2076 really multifunction, and not only GPS and GLONASS but also augmentation satellites :) Regards, Javier ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:53:51 -0700 WarrenS warrensjmail-...@yahoo.com wrote: So where do I get a cheap, used Russian GPSDO? I have not seen any on EBay Can I trade them my Tbolt? :) uBlox offers GLONASS ready modules for a few months. You could take one of the many GPSDOs that use uBlox modules (e.g. the ones from Jackson Lab) and solder a new one in. Attila Kinali -- The trouble with you, Shev, is you don't say anything until you've saved up a whole truckload of damned heavy brick arguments and then you dump them all out and never look at the bleeding body mangled beneath the heap -- Tirin, The Dispossessed, U. Le Guin ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
Hello, Tuesday, October 18, 2011, 12:01:46, Attila Kinali wrote: A On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:53:51 -0700 A WarrenS warrensjmail-...@yahoo.com wrote: So where do I get a cheap, used Russian GPSDO? I have not seen any on EBay Can I trade them my Tbolt? :) A uBlox offers GLONASS ready modules for a few months. A You could take one of the many GPSDOs that use uBlox A modules (e.g. the ones from Jackson Lab) and solder A a new one in. A Attila Kinali uBlox LEA-6H is Glonass-ready, as well as Galileo-ready. ;) I.e. maybe, sometime, they will release firmware that is capable to use Glonass signals. Current firmware is GPS-only, AFAIK. I have samples of almost all GPS/GLONASS modules that is available today and tested it (for navigation purposes only, of course, had no time to check 1PPS signal). Not bad, of course, especially in northern Russia. By the way, at least 3 manufacturers offer modules with same footprint (and almost the same pinout) as current uBlox modules (TIM and LEA). -- Best regards, Yuri mailto:y...@ostry.ru ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
Yes, uBlox is GLONASS-ready but no units actually available. On 10/18/11, Yuri Ostry y...@ostry.ru wrote: Hello, Tuesday, October 18, 2011, 12:01:46, Attila Kinali wrote: A On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:53:51 -0700 A WarrenS warrensjmail-...@yahoo.com wrote: So where do I get a cheap, used Russian GPSDO? I have not seen any on EBay Can I trade them my Tbolt? :) A uBlox offers GLONASS ready modules for a few months. A You could take one of the many GPSDOs that use uBlox A modules (e.g. the ones from Jackson Lab) and solder A a new one in. A Attila Kinali uBlox LEA-6H is Glonass-ready, as well as Galileo-ready. ;) I.e. maybe, sometime, they will release firmware that is capable to use Glonass signals. Current firmware is GPS-only, AFAIK. I have samples of almost all GPS/GLONASS modules that is available today and tested it (for navigation purposes only, of course, had no time to check 1PPS signal). Not bad, of course, especially in northern Russia. By the way, at least 3 manufacturers offer modules with same footprint (and almost the same pinout) as current uBlox modules (TIM and LEA). -- Best regards, Yuri mailto:y...@ostry.ru ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
Maybe better to ask, what is the commercial price of a T-Bolt and compare to that. We have been Extremely lucky only due to the upgrades of the global cell phone system, If it was not for that I wonder what the situation would be On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:53 AM, WarrenS warrensjmail-...@yahoo.com wrote: So where do I get a cheap, used Russian GPSDO? I have not seen any on EBay Can I trade them my Tbolt? :) per: http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1998/Vol%2030_18.pdf Although not as well known as the GPS, the Russian global satellite navigation system GLONASS possesses comparable capabilities for navigation, precise geodetic positioning, and time-transfer applications [l]. one-site measurements are used to show that single-channel GLONASS precise code, combined with temperature-controlled antennas, reduces the noise experienced by time receiving equipment of a few picoseconds for 1e-15 frequency accuracy in one day, and unlike GPS P-code, it is available to civilian users ... ws ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
So where do I get a cheap, used Russian GPSDO? I have not seen any on EBay Can I trade them my Tbolt? :) per: http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1998/Vol%2030_18.pdf Note that's a rather old 1998 paper and a lot has changed since then. Not the least of which is GPS S/A going away back in 2000. In addition, we have more and better GPS SV operating now, along with WAAS, and other real time GPS signal correction methods. Read some recent GPS papers for comparison. See also CORS and IGS. There's no doubt that adding GLONASS or Galileo sats into the mix will help a lot. Compared with an 8-channel TBolt many of today's high-end receivers can how handle 36, 72, or 120 data channels (see ads in a GPS world magazine). The nice (awkward) thing about GLONASS is that each SV has its own frequency. So the antenna and receiver architecture is more complicated. Have you seen any portable car navigation or cell phones with GLONASS? But as a side effect you get ionospheric corrections for free; something you can only get in GPS with expensive dual-frequency (L1/L2) GPS receivers. So GLONASS is cool, even if they do land more of them in the ocean than in space ;-) I used a fancy (loaner) GPS+GLONASS Javad receiver in 2000 which got me to the sub-cm and sub-ns level. You can now find these old receivers on eBay for next to nothing; mine looked like item 300611206685 (but I can't vouch for seller or the firmware options of that, or any similar unit). You never get precision for free; a lot of work goes into it. I am very eager to see lab reports of low-cost combined GPS+GLONASS receivers. I bet Said has good info on the u-blox 4T vs. 5T vs. 6T but now that he's selling to us instead of sharing with us, you've noticed how quiet he is about all this. (Hey, no harm meant, but don't forget where you came from). I suspect the u-blox units are more concerned with quick acquisition time and urban coverage than they are with nanoseconds, but if someone knows for sure, please tell. In summary, my impression is that -15/day level of GPS performance is now common in the precision time world. The usual set of tricks is single-sat or all-in-view common view, dual-frequency receivers, full GNSS coverage, and some level of post-processing (or at least near real-time) for clock, orbit, and ionospheric corrections. Independent of GPS, the guys with serious clocks (and your money) just use two-way commercial satellite time transfer (e.g., USNO, PTB, etc.). /tvb ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
So GLONASS is cool, even if they do land more of them in the ocean than in space ;-) They are just getting their Low geosync constellation in place. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
Yes, there is a GLONASS navigator: the EXPLAY GN510, ePay item 150659387614. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:33 PM, David VanHorn d.vanh...@elec-solutions.com wrote: So GLONASS is cool, even if they do land more of them in the ocean than in space ;-) They are just getting their Low geosync constellation in place. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
Hello, Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 1:21:31, Tom Van Baak wrote: T So the antenna and receiver architecture is more complicated. Have you seen any T portable car navigation or cell phones with GLONASS? Smartphone with both nav systems (sorry, Russian page only): http://www.shop.mts.ru/phones/mts/glonass_945.html?utm_source=Google_Mutm_medium=cpcutm_campaign=MTC_phones -- Best regards, Yuri mailto:y...@ostry.ru ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
So where do I get a cheap, used Russian GPSDO? I have not seen any on EBay Can I trade them my Tbolt? :) per: http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1998/Vol%2030_18.pdf Although not as well known as the GPS, the Russian global satellite navigation system GLONASS possesses comparable capabilities for navigation, precise geodetic positioning, and time-transfer applications [l]. one-site measurements are used to show that single-channel GLONASS precise code, combined with temperature-controlled antennas, reduces the noise experienced by time receiving equipment of a few picoseconds for 1e-15 frequency accuracy in one day, and unlike GPS P-code, it is available to civilian users ... ws ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
WS, We are looking to offer Glonass enabled versions of our Jackson Labs Tech GPSDOs (Firefly-II series) by Q1 next year. If sufficient interest exists. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:53, WarrenS warrensjmail-...@yahoo.com wrote: So where do I get a cheap, used Russian GPSDO? I have not seen any on EBay Can I trade them my Tbolt? :) per: http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1998/Vol%2030_18.pdf Although not as well known as the GPS, the Russian global satellite navigation system GLONASS possesses comparable capabilities for navigation, precise geodetic positioning, and time-transfer applications [l]. one-site measurements are used to show that single-channel GLONASS precise code, combined with temperature-controlled antennas, reduces the noise experienced by time receiving equipment of a few picoseconds for 1e-15 frequency accuracy in one day, and unlike GPS P-code, it is available to civilian users ... ws ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Russian GPSDO
These must be bloody expensive - I didn't see any mention of price on their web site. How do these units compare with Thunderbolts aside from lower power consumption? On 10/17/2011 12:25 PM, Said Jackson wrote: Jackson Labs Tech GPSDOs (Firefly-II series) -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
