Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
On 07/16/2012 03:28 AM, Tom Miller wrote: I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub know that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information. I'll need to google around to find more about it. We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1 MW at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire? We had the ELF transmitter at Grimeton (SAQ) transmitting about 200 kHz at 17.2 kHz using the Alexanderson alternator. I think the litz wire was 4 inch in diameter as I recall it. It was cutting edge in 1924. It was initially used for telegraph traffic to the US, and the Long Island main station. It was really never keyed by hand, it was keyed remote with optical keyer and messages taped back-to-back. After its main service for telegraph messages was no longer motivate it, it got used as the bell ringer for our subs and kept operational and maintained up till about 1996 and it has since been taken care off so it can be used for museeum. It's now on UNESCOs world-heritage list. Links: http://www.grimetonradio.se/ http://www.radiostationengrimeton.se/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_VLF_transmitter http://www.grimeton.org/ http://www.alexander.n.se/ Do visit Grimeton if you are in south of Sweden. You can also tune in to it's transmissions and report back. The remaining submarine radiostation in Ruda could actually be turn into a time-code transmitter. It's a matter of financing it and giving the order. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
I believe ELF is more like 100 Hz, which can be received much deeper, so the sub can stay at the bottom. 24kHz is VLF. Didier KO4BB Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 07/16/2012 03:28 AM, Tom Miller wrote: I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub know that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information. I'll need to google around to find more about it. We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1 MW at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire? We had the ELF transmitter at Grimeton (SAQ) transmitting about 200 kHz at 17.2 kHz using the Alexanderson alternator. I think the litz wire was 4 inch in diameter as I recall it. It was cutting edge in 1924. It was initially used for telegraph traffic to the US, and the Long Island main station. It was really never keyed by hand, it was keyed remote with optical keyer and messages taped back-to-back. After its main service for telegraph messages was no longer motivate it, it got used as the bell ringer for our subs and kept operational and maintained up till about 1996 and it has since been taken care off so it can be used for museeum. It's now on UNESCOs world-heritage list. Links: http://www.grimetonradio.se/ http://www.radiostationengrimeton.se/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_VLF_transmitter http://www.grimeton.org/ http://www.alexander.n.se/ Do visit Grimeton if you are in south of Sweden. You can also tune in to it's transmissions and report back. The remaining submarine radiostation in Ruda could actually be turn into a time-code transmitter. It's a matter of financing it and giving the order. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Hi Didier: Yes, here's a table with some sub com frequencies: http://www.prc68.com/I/FA.shtml#ELF Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html Didier Juges wrote: I believe ELF is more like 100 Hz, which can be received much deeper, so the sub can stay at the bottom. 24kHz is VLF. Didier KO4BB Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 07/16/2012 03:28 AM, Tom Miller wrote: I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub know that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information. I'll need to google around to find more about it. We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1 MW at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire? We had the ELF transmitter at Grimeton (SAQ) transmitting about 200 kHz at 17.2 kHz using the Alexanderson alternator. I think the litz wire was 4 inch in diameter as I recall it. It was cutting edge in 1924. It was initially used for telegraph traffic to the US, and the Long Island main station. It was really never keyed by hand, it was keyed remote with optical keyer and messages taped back-to-back. After its main service for telegraph messages was no longer motivate it, it got used as the bell ringer for our subs and kept operational and maintained up till about 1996 and it has since been taken care off so it can be used for museeum. It's now on UNESCOs world-heritage list. Links: http://www.grimetonradio.se/ http://www.radiostationengrimeton.se/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_VLF_transmitter http://www.grimeton.org/ http://www.alexander.n.se/ Do visit Grimeton if you are in south of Sweden. You can also tune in to it's transmissions and report back. The remaining submarine radiostation in Ruda could actually be turn into a time-code transmitter. It's a matter of financing it and giving the order. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Hi Didier, Yes, you are correct. My memory from 10 + years ago is slowly fading. The ELF transmitters were used to get the subs up to near surface so they could receive messages from the VLF sites. NSS was a VLF site. Thanks for the reality check :) Tom - Original Message - From: Didier Juges shali...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival I believe ELF is more like 100 Hz, which can be received much deeper, so the sub can stay at the bottom. 24kHz is VLF. Didier KO4BB Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 07/16/2012 03:28 AM, Tom Miller wrote: I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub know that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information. I'll need to google around to find more about it. We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1 MW at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire? We had the ELF transmitter at Grimeton (SAQ) transmitting about 200 kHz at 17.2 kHz using the Alexanderson alternator. I think the litz wire was 4 inch in diameter as I recall it. It was cutting edge in 1924. It was initially used for telegraph traffic to the US, and the Long Island main station. It was really never keyed by hand, it was keyed remote with optical keyer and messages taped back-to-back. After its main service for telegraph messages was no longer motivate it, it got used as the bell ringer for our subs and kept operational and maintained up till about 1996 and it has since been taken care off so it can be used for museeum. It's now on UNESCOs world-heritage list. Links: http://www.grimetonradio.se/ http://www.radiostationengrimeton.se/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_VLF_transmitter http://www.grimeton.org/ http://www.alexander.n.se/ Do visit Grimeton if you are in south of Sweden. You can also tune in to it's transmissions and report back. The remaining submarine radiostation in Ruda could actually be turn into a time-code transmitter. It's a matter of financing it and giving the order. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Cool. Thanks Brook. I was fortunate to get several tours at NSS before they tore it down. I (and several others) were also able, through one of our senators, to have three of the 600 foot self supporting towers saved and reused for public safety. These three legged towers have a leg spacing of 150 feet. Best regards, Tom - Original Message - From: Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival Hi Didier: Yes, here's a table with some sub com frequencies: http://www.prc68.com/I/FA.shtml#ELF Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html Didier Juges wrote: I believe ELF is more like 100 Hz, which can be received much deeper, so the sub can stay at the bottom. 24kHz is VLF. Didier KO4BB Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: On 07/16/2012 03:28 AM, Tom Miller wrote: I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub know that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information. I'll need to google around to find more about it. We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1 MW at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire? We had the ELF transmitter at Grimeton (SAQ) transmitting about 200 kHz at 17.2 kHz using the Alexanderson alternator. I think the litz wire was 4 inch in diameter as I recall it. It was cutting edge in 1924. It was initially used for telegraph traffic to the US, and the Long Island main station. It was really never keyed by hand, it was keyed remote with optical keyer and messages taped back-to-back. After its main service for telegraph messages was no longer motivate it, it got used as the bell ringer for our subs and kept operational and maintained up till about 1996 and it has since been taken care off so it can be used for museeum. It's now on UNESCOs world-heritage list. Links: http://www.grimetonradio.se/ http://www.radiostationengrimeton.se/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_VLF_transmitter http://www.grimeton.org/ http://www.alexander.n.se/ Do visit Grimeton if you are in south of Sweden. You can also tune in to it's transmissions and report back. The remaining submarine radiostation in Ruda could actually be turn into a time-code transmitter. It's a matter of financing it and giving the order. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air. It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB. I could easily see it with a small (1') loop and a 'scope. YMMV, -John == Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up? It has about 800 ft of wire. Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +. Compared to a 2.5 ft loop. Yes higher power would be good. Regards paul On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com wrote: GM List, What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom. The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for innumerable critical tasks. But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite from the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are numerous reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites. Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued destruction or degradation from a land based source. The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those in the current applicable leadership of the US government. One proof of this was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending amount of several trillion dollars a year. But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS and perhaps might be revived. A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an alternate backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide protection at least for the USA GPS system. Heres why. It still is very difficult and expensive to damage/destroy satellites. That there are viable alternatives based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage the rogue states from making such an effort. WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum AM broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for about 75 years. NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57 per cent. Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output power. For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and is heard often in North America with a R-390A receiver. So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical central U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per meter signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere and provide a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could phase lock on the signal in North America and would not be subject to problems of diurnal shift or the new modulation scheme. Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to install 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for an adequate signal. Regards, Perry Sandeen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
On 07/15/2012 11:48 AM, J. Forster wrote: Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air. It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB. A first place to look to check out that claim would be: http://www.emsec.rub.de/media/crypto/attachments/files/2011/03/BeckerMasterthesis.pdf It refers to this paper: http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/LoENCGNSS09.pdf For jamming and spoofing detection and counter-measures, as well as eLoran support, new receivers would be needed. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Notice I said 'some'. One station would suffice. I'm only interested in a standard of time interval. -John = On 07/15/2012 11:48 AM, J. Forster wrote: Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air. It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB. A first place to look to check out that claim would be: http://www.emsec.rub.de/media/crypto/attachments/files/2011/03/BeckerMasterthesis.pdf It refers to this paper: http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/LoENCGNSS09.pdf For jamming and spoofing detection and counter-measures, as well as eLoran support, new receivers would be needed. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
On 07/15/2012 12:49 PM, J. Forster wrote: Notice I said 'some'. One station would suffice. I'm only interested in a standard of time interval. That may not be sufficient for other uses, such as navigation. Firing one up for frequency source only would probably not be motivated. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Hi The *only* way for redundancy to do any good is for it to be designed into systems. That simply is not done. It was not done back when everything was on the air. It's not going to be done now (can't) or in the future (prediction). Why? It costs money, it did cost money, it will cost money. It's *not* because people don't / didn't know about the alternatives. Qualcomm was fielding Loran-C based timing long before viable GPS came along. It's also not because people like a single source of sync. It's an economic decision. There are lots of identical decisions made about all sorts of aspects of a complex system. There are *many* ways to take out a cell system…. Bob On Jul 14, 2012, at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen wrote: GM List, What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom. The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for innumerable critical tasks. But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite from the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are numerous reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites. Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued destruction or degradation from a land based source. The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those in the current applicable leadership of the US government. One proof of this was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending amount of several trillion dollars a year. But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS and perhaps might be revived. A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an alternate backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide protection at least for the USA GPS system. Here’s why. It still is very difficult and expensive to damage/destroy satellites. That there are viable alternatives based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage the rogue states from making such an effort. WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum AM broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for about 75 years. NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57 per cent. Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output power. For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and is heard often in North America with a R-390A receiver. So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical central U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per meter signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere and provide a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could phase lock on the signal in North America and would not be subject to problems of diurnal shift or the new modulation scheme. Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to install 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for an adequate signal. Regards, Perry Sandeen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:48 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air. It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB. I could easily see it with a small (1') loop and a 'scope. YMMV, -John == Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up? It has about 800 ft of wire. Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +. Compared to a 2.5 ft loop. Yes higher power would be good. Regards paul On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com wrote: GM List, What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom. The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for innumerable critical tasks. But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite from the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are numerous reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites. Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued destruction or degradation from a land based source. If you are worried about the system surviving an attack, a Loran system can be taken out by something as un-sophisticated as just one car bomb. One guy working along could do it.Taking out a satellite at 400 miles up is a MUCH harder problem. Don't say people in the government don't think about this. One solution being worked is very small satellites. What can yo pack in a one cubic foot box? What if you could launch 100 such boxes from a solid fueled rocked based in a silo (like an ICBM that can be launched on a VERY short count down) Othr research ares are mesh networks That might address the question of what could you do with 100,000 iPhones in orbit. If you are worried about security and jamming the solution is NOT a powerful, wide area broadcast. No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Hi …. and the same cockroach approach is by far the easier way to take out a cell system. Bob On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:34 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:48 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote: Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air. It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB. I could easily see it with a small (1') loop and a 'scope. YMMV, -John == Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up? It has about 800 ft of wire. Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +. Compared to a 2.5 ft loop. Yes higher power would be good. Regards paul On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com wrote: GM List, What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom. The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for innumerable critical tasks. But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite from the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are numerous reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites. Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued destruction or degradation from a land based source. If you are worried about the system surviving an attack, a Loran system can be taken out by something as un-sophisticated as just one car bomb. One guy working along could do it.Taking out a satellite at 400 miles up is a MUCH harder problem. Don't say people in the government don't think about this. One solution being worked is very small satellites. What can yo pack in a one cubic foot box? What if you could launch 100 such boxes from a solid fueled rocked based in a silo (like an ICBM that can be launched on a VERY short count down) Othr research ares are mesh networks That might address the question of what could you do with 100,000 iPhones in orbit. If you are worried about security and jamming the solution is NOT a powerful, wide area broadcast. No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called, or present status. These things are kinda lost these days, like the original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs... Don -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN system run primarily for the railroads. John WA4WDL -- From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called, or present status. These things are kinda lost these days, like the original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs... Don -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
I believe many of the GWEN sites were converted to VLF beacons transmitting differential GPS reference data. I know of one site in Crownsville, Maryland that does just that. I don't know the up to data status of these sites now. Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN system run primarily for the railroads. John WA4WDL -- From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called, or present status. These things are kinda lost these days, like the original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs... Don -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
GWEN was a late cold war era LF cellular style communications system for use within parts of the USA. Over the years I've seen a number of cesium standards on Ebay being sold as ex GWEN equipment. As far as I know GWEN is long gone. Supposedly some AM broadcast stations also transmitted fsk data for defence purposes as well. Perhaps some AM broadcast stations could be used to transmit timing information. There were also cold war era proposals for a nation wide LF broadcast system for civil defence use and iirc at least one transmitter was actually on the air in the 70's or early 80's. As much as I'd like to see a nation wide LF broadcast system as a means of distributing standard time, frequency, and other related information, I just don't see it happening in this day and age. Some form of backup to gps would be nice for timing purposes. I wonder if a secondary sattelite based system for timing use only over the continental US might be the way to go. (Ie. a transmitter on a geo stationary sattelite that could emulate enough of the gps signals to allow statioanry timing receivers to function.) -- On Sun, 15 Jul, 2012 2:09 PM EDT Tom Miller wrote: I believe many of the GWEN sites were converted to VLF beacons transmitting differential GPS reference data. I know of one site in Crownsville, Maryland that does just that. I don't know the up to data status of these sites now. Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN system run primarily for the railroads. John WA4WDL -- From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called, or present status. These things are kinda lost these days, like the original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs... Don -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/01septoct/gwen.cfm; http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=SiteLocations; http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/ndgps/DGPS_Site_Table.pdf; The only ones I know for a fact were former GWEN sites are Essex CA and ABQ NM. I can hear 29 +/- of these with an indoor loopstick in the winter when conditions are quiet. On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Tom Miller wrote: I believe many of the GWEN sites were converted to VLF beacons transmitting differential GPS reference data. I know of one site in Crownsville, Maryland that does just that. I don't know the up to data status of these sites now. Regards, Tom ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
I can't seem to remember it's angle brackets you use to quote a url. Sorry about that for those of you reading on the archive and getting bad links. Try below: On Jul 15, 2012, at 1:42 PM, John Seamons wrote: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/01septoct/gwen.cfm http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=SiteLocations http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/ndgps/DGPS_Site_Table.pdf The only ones I know for a fact were former GWEN sites are Essex CA and ABQ NM. I can hear 29 +/- of these with an indoor loopstick in the winter when conditions are quiet. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
This makes no sense. The major expense of any radio system is not the transmitters, but the infrastrcture to support those transmitters. Things like land, towers, buildings, maintenance people, and legal costs all are far more than a transmitter. And, have you looked at the cost of a single satellite? LORAN-C could have been run for a decade or three for the cost of a single bird. Many of those are probably available for a resurected LORAN-C, except for what has been sold off. -John === GWEN was a late cold war era LF cellular style communications system for use within parts of the USA. Over the years I've seen a number of cesium standards on Ebay being sold as ex GWEN equipment. As far as I know GWEN is long gone. Supposedly some AM broadcast stations also transmitted fsk data for defence purposes as well. Perhaps some AM broadcast stations could be used to transmit timing information. There were also cold war era proposals for a nation wide LF broadcast system for civil defence use and iirc at least one transmitter was actually on the air in the 70's or early 80's. As much as I'd like to see a nation wide LF broadcast system as a means of distributing standard time, frequency, and other related information, I just don't see it happening in this day and age. Some form of backup to gps would be nice for timing purposes. I wonder if a secondary sattelite based system for timing use only over the continental US might be the way to go. (Ie. a transmitter on a geo stationary sattelite that could emulate enough of the gps signals to allow statioanry timing receivers to function.) -- On Sun, 15 Jul, 2012 2:09 PM EDT Tom Miller wrote: I believe many of the GWEN sites were converted to VLF beacons transmitting differential GPS reference data. I know of one site in Crownsville, Maryland that does just that. I don't know the up to data status of these sites now. Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN system run primarily for the railroads. John WA4WDL -- From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called, or present status. These things are kinda lost these days, like the original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs... Don -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
In my view a backup solution that allows the existing gps based timing receivers to be used makes a reasonable ammount of sense. Another approach could involve ground based transmitters on high buildings or mountain tops. -- On Sun, 15 Jul, 2012 4:23 PM EDT J. Forster wrote: This makes no sense. The major expense of any radio system is not the transmitters, but the infrastrcture to support those transmitters. Things like land, towers, buildings, maintenance people, and legal costs all are far more than a transmitter. And, have you looked at the cost of a single satellite? LORAN-C could have been run for a decade or three for the cost of a single bird. Many of those are probably available for a resurected LORAN-C, except for what has been sold off. -John === GWEN was a late cold war era LF cellular style communications system for use within parts of the USA. Over the years I've seen a number of cesium standards on Ebay being sold as ex GWEN equipment. As far as I know GWEN is long gone. Supposedly some AM broadcast stations also transmitted fsk data for defence purposes as well. Perhaps some AM broadcast stations could be used to transmit timing information. There were also cold war era proposals for a nation wide LF broadcast system for civil defence use and iirc at least one transmitter was actually on the air in the 70's or early 80's. As much as I'd like to see a nation wide LF broadcast system as a means of distributing standard time, frequency, and other related information, I just don't see it happening in this day and age. Some form of backup to gps would be nice for timing purposes. I wonder if a secondary sattelite based system for timing use only over the continental US might be the way to go. (Ie. a transmitter on a geo stationary sattelite that could emulate enough of the gps signals to allow statioanry timing receivers to function.) -- On Sun, 15 Jul, 2012 2:09 PM EDT Tom Miller wrote: I believe many of the GWEN sites were converted to VLF beacons transmitting differential GPS reference data. I know of one site in Crownsville, Maryland that does just that. I don't know the up to data status of these sites now. Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN system run primarily for the railroads. John WA4WDL -- From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called, or present status. These things are kinda lost these days, like the original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs... Don -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
could be it... Don jmfranke Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN system run primarily for the railroads. John WA4WDL -- From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called, or present status. These things are kinda lost these days, like the original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs... Don -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
On 7/15/12 12:38 PM, Mark Spencer wrote: Some form of backup to gps would be nice for timing purposes. I wonder if a secondary sattelite based system for timing use only over the continental US might be the way to go. (Ie. a transmitter on a geo stationary sattelite that could emulate enough of the gps signals to allow statioanry timing receivers to function.) You mean like WAAS? It's a GPS like signal broadcast from GEO. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
On 7/15/12 1:32 PM, Mark Spencer wrote: In my view a backup solution that allows the existing gps based timing receivers to be used makes a reasonable ammount of sense. Another approach could involve ground based transmitters on high buildings or mountain tops. Retuned Lightsquared sites? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Good point about WAAS. I wonder if newer timing receivers that support WAAS would continue to function in a stationary mode if they could only receive valid signals from WAAS ? I also wonder if the WAAS ground segment would continue to function without GPS ? That being said the transmitters are already in orbit. Sent from my iPad On 2012-07-15, at 2:53 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote: On 7/15/12 12:38 PM, Mark Spencer wrote: Some form of backup to gps would be nice for timing purposes. I wonder if a secondary sattelite based system for timing use only over the continental US might be the way to go. (Ie. a transmitter on a geo stationary sattelite that could emulate enough of the gps signals to allow statioanry timing receivers to function.) You mean like WAAS? It's a GPS like signal broadcast from GEO. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Well, it could have been ELF whose Seafarer antenna was located at Clam Lake Wisconsin. My grandfather built a vacation cabin just north of Clam Lake and it was a big deal to visit the place. That was before the peaceniks were demonstrating since they didn't seem to want our submarines to do too much damage to Russia. I think that antenna was almost 30 miles long---don't quote me but it was an important component in the very low frequency communications system of the Navy.. Lee K9WRU - Original Message - From: Don Latham d...@montana.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival could be it... Don jmfranke Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN system run primarily for the railroads. John WA4WDL -- From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called, or present status. These things are kinda lost these days, like the original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs... Don -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
On 07/16/2012 12:21 AM, Mark Spencer wrote: Good point about WAAS. I wonder if newer timing receivers that support WAAS would continue to function in a stationary mode if they could only receive valid signals from WAAS ? I also wonder if the WAAS ground segment would continue to function without GPS ? That being said the transmitters are already in orbit. Considering that WAAS, EGNOS and friends has signal on L1 at approximate the same energy as GPS, when you loose GPS you run high risk at loosing WAAS and friends too, in the same blow. You should be able to continue receive WAAS signal, even if the GPS fails for them. The benefit of WAAS and EGNOS is that they have a fixed location in the sky. so you could use a highly directional antenna, like a parabolic antenna, which would provide suppression of most jamming signal unless they are overhead. Another benefit of using WAAS is that you could do the C/A correlation in analogue hardware, which would allow for CW jammers to be suppressed without the gain control being fetched. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub know that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information. I'll need to google around to find more about it. We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1 MW at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire? Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: Lee Mushel herbe...@centurytel.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival Well, it could have been ELF whose Seafarer antenna was located at Clam Lake Wisconsin. My grandfather built a vacation cabin just north of Clam Lake and it was a big deal to visit the place. That was before the peaceniks were demonstrating since they didn't seem to want our submarines to do too much damage to Russia. I think that antenna was almost 30 miles long---don't quote me but it was an important component in the very low frequency communications system of the Navy.. Lee K9WRU - Original Message - From: Don Latham d...@montana.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival could be it... Don jmfranke Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN system run primarily for the railroads. John WA4WDL -- From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival No you use a great number of tiny overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network, not a top-down control system. What this does is mimic nature. Think about rats and cockroaches Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called, or present status. These things are kinda lost these days, like the original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs... Don -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. R. Bacon If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: The benefit of WAAS and EGNOS is that they have a fixed location in the sky. so you could use a highly directional antenna, like a parabolic antenna, which would provide suppression of most jamming signal unless they are overhead. I've seen a military GPS antenna that was a large phased array. I guess the idea was to use the almanac to track the moving GPS sats. The goal was to reject jammers by using a dozen or so synthesized pencil beams. (like a radar in a fighter jet) You could not put this in a hand held device as it was as BIG.That is the main problem with directional antenna they need to be large with respect to the wavelength. I don't know if this ever was used in a real deployed system. I think this antenna type was also the design proposed for a distributed low orbit comms system too. The current geo-sync comm-sats make for simple antenna but all of the proposed tactical launch on an hour notice comm-sats would be in LEO (low earth orbit) and launched with something like Pegasus or a re-purposed ICBM. The problem is that having a few dozen low power sats in LEO seriously complicates the portable ground stations, hence experiments with flat-plate phased array. THis is a very active research area. The very last payload deployed by the Space Shuttle was pico-sat a 5x5x10 inch satellite. It was built at the place I worked at as a test of a new pico-sized bus. This example had some sensors but really the test was if the thing could be commanded from the ground and do anything usfull at all. Look at the photo in the link. The sat is the box inside the bigger box.One of the recent innovations was to cut out patterns in sheets metal and stack many sheets to create a 3D tank and plumbing system with integrated rocket nozzles. The goal was to reduce costs by having a design that can be manufactured by robots. http://www.space.com/12354-final-space-shuttle-satellite-deployment-picosat.html So YES everyone knows these big satellites are targets. In a major war with a sophisticated enemy they would be gone soon. So the plan is to design systems that can be built stored and launched on VERY short notice in very large numbers.This kind of research has maybe a 25 year horizon maybe longer as you need to build up a new eco system of space qualified parts and engineers familiar with them and do many launches and tests. Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
On 7/15/12 6:25 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: The benefit of WAAS and EGNOS is that they have a fixed location in the sky. so you could use a highly directional antenna, like a parabolic antenna, which would provide suppression of most jamming signal unless they are overhead. I've seen a military GPS antenna that was a large phased array. I guess the idea was to use the almanac to track the moving GPS sats. The goal was to reject jammers by using a dozen or so synthesized pencil beams. (like a radar in a fighter jet) You could not put this in a hand held device as it was as BIG.That is the main problem with directional antenna they need to be large with respect to the wavelength. I don't know if this ever was used in a real deployed system. Doesn't need to be all that big... lambda at 1.5 GHz is 20cm.. an array that's, say, 50x50 cm would have significant interference rejection capability (i.e. you don't have to synthesize a pencil beam, you just need to put a null on the interference.. and you can null N-1 sources when you have N elements, so a 9 element (3x3) array would do nicely.. (and give you your attitude as a side effect) I think this antenna type was also the design proposed for a distributed low orbit comms system too. The current geo-sync comm-sats make for simple antenna but all of the proposed tactical launch on an hour notice comm-sats would be in LEO (low earth orbit) and launched with something like Pegasus or a re-purposed ICBM. The problem is that having a few dozen low power sats in LEO seriously complicates the portable ground stations, hence experiments with flat-plate phased array. Not really.. it depends on the frequency and the number of sources you need to track. THis is a very active research area. The very last payload deployed by the Space Shuttle was pico-sat a 5x5x10 inch satellite. It was built at the place I worked at as a test of a new pico-sized bus. This example had some sensors but really the test was if the thing could be commanded from the ground and do anything usfull at all. Look at the photo in the link. The sat is the box inside the bigger box.One of the recent innovations was to cut out patterns in sheets metal and stack many sheets to create a 3D tank and plumbing system with integrated rocket nozzles. The goal was to reduce costs by having a design that can be manufactured by robots. http://www.space.com/12354-final-space-shuttle-satellite-deployment-picosat.html So YES everyone knows these big satellites are targets. In a major war with a sophisticated enemy they would be gone soon. So the plan is to design systems that can be built stored and launched on VERY short notice in very large numbers.This kind of research has maybe a 25 year horizon maybe longer as you need to build up a new eco system of space qualified parts and engineers familiar with them and do many launches and tests. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
GM List, What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom. The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for innumerable critical tasks. But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite from the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are numerous reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites. Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued destruction or degradation from a land based source. The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those in the current applicable leadership of the US government. One proof of this was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending amount of several trillion dollars a year. But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS and perhaps might be revived. A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an alternate backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide protection at least for the USA GPS system. Here’s why. It still is very difficult and expensive to damage/destroy satellites. That there are viable alternatives based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage the rogue states from making such an effort. WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum AM broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for about 75 years. NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57 per cent. Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output power. For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and is heard often in North America with a R-390A receiver. So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical central U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per meter signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere and provide a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could phase lock on the signal in North America and would not be subject to problems of diurnal shift or the new modulation scheme. Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to install 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for an adequate signal. Regards, Perry Sandeen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up? It has about 800 ft of wire. Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +. Compared to a 2.5 ft loop. Yes higher power would be good. Regards paul On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com wrote: GM List, What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom. The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for innumerable critical tasks. But it requires using satellites. They are subject to destruction or degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge states that would be so inclined. The ability to destroy a satellite from the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation. There are numerous reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites. Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued destruction or degradation from a land based source. The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those in the current applicable leadership of the US government. One proof of this was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending amount of several trillion dollars a year. But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS and perhaps might be revived. A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an alternate backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide protection at least for the USA GPS system. Here’s why. It still is very difficult and expensive to damage/destroy satellites. That there are viable alternatives based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage the rogue states from making such an effort. WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum AM broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for about 75 years. NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57 per cent. Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output power. For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and is heard often in North America with a R-390A receiver. So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical central U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per meter signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere and provide a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could phase lock on the signal in North America and would not be subject to problems of diurnal shift or the new modulation scheme. Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to install 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for an adequate signal. Regards, Perry Sandeen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival
Offhand I'd estimate it would be easier for some bad guys to put a crude A-bomb on top of a SCUD and put America into the horse and buggy age with an EMP attack than to take out a significant number of GPS satellites. NLK in Washington state has been off the for almost two months now. Depending on which list one looks at, NLK transmits on 24.8 with 300 to 1000 kilowatts. Perhaps NLK could be retuned to send the WWVB signal. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.