Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-16 Thread Magnus Danielson

On 07/16/2012 03:28 AM, Tom Miller wrote:

I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub know
that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information.
I'll need to google around to find more about it.

We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1 MW
at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire?


We had the ELF transmitter at Grimeton (SAQ) transmitting about 200 kHz 
at 17.2 kHz using the Alexanderson alternator. I think the litz wire was 
4 inch in diameter as I recall it. It was cutting edge in 1924.
It was initially used for telegraph traffic to the US, and the Long 
Island main station. It was really never keyed by hand, it was keyed 
remote with optical keyer and messages taped back-to-back. After its 
main service for telegraph messages was no longer motivate it, it got 
used as the bell ringer for our subs and kept operational and 
maintained up till about 1996 and it has since been taken care off so it 
can be used for museeum. It's now on UNESCOs world-heritage list.


Links:
http://www.grimetonradio.se/
http://www.radiostationengrimeton.se/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_VLF_transmitter
http://www.grimeton.org/
http://www.alexander.n.se/

Do visit Grimeton if you are in south of Sweden. You can also tune in to 
it's transmissions and report back.


The remaining submarine radiostation in Ruda could actually be turn into 
a time-code transmitter. It's a matter of financing it and giving the order.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-16 Thread Didier Juges
I  believe ELF is more like 100 Hz, which can be received much deeper,  so the 
sub can stay at the bottom.  24kHz is VLF.

Didier KO4BB 



Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

On 07/16/2012 03:28 AM, Tom Miller wrote:
 I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub
know
 that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information.
 I'll need to google around to find more about it.

 We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1
MW
 at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire?

We had the ELF transmitter at Grimeton (SAQ) transmitting about 200 kHz

at 17.2 kHz using the Alexanderson alternator. I think the litz wire
was 
4 inch in diameter as I recall it. It was cutting edge in 1924.
It was initially used for telegraph traffic to the US, and the Long 
Island main station. It was really never keyed by hand, it was keyed 
remote with optical keyer and messages taped back-to-back. After its 
main service for telegraph messages was no longer motivate it, it got 
used as the bell ringer for our subs and kept operational and 
maintained up till about 1996 and it has since been taken care off so
it 
can be used for museeum. It's now on UNESCOs world-heritage list.

Links:
http://www.grimetonradio.se/
http://www.radiostationengrimeton.se/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_VLF_transmitter
http://www.grimeton.org/
http://www.alexander.n.se/

Do visit Grimeton if you are in south of Sweden. You can also tune in
to 
it's transmissions and report back.

The remaining submarine radiostation in Ruda could actually be turn
into 
a time-code transmitter. It's a matter of financing it and giving the
order.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-16 Thread Brooke Clarke

Hi Didier:

Yes, here's a table with some sub com frequencies:
http://www.prc68.com/I/FA.shtml#ELF

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

Didier Juges wrote:

I  believe ELF is more like 100 Hz, which can be received much deeper,  so the 
sub can stay at the bottom.  24kHz is VLF.

Didier KO4BB



Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:


On 07/16/2012 03:28 AM, Tom Miller wrote:

I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub

know

that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information.
I'll need to google around to find more about it.

We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1

MW

at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire?

We had the ELF transmitter at Grimeton (SAQ) transmitting about 200 kHz

at 17.2 kHz using the Alexanderson alternator. I think the litz wire
was
4 inch in diameter as I recall it. It was cutting edge in 1924.
It was initially used for telegraph traffic to the US, and the Long
Island main station. It was really never keyed by hand, it was keyed
remote with optical keyer and messages taped back-to-back. After its
main service for telegraph messages was no longer motivate it, it got
used as the bell ringer for our subs and kept operational and
maintained up till about 1996 and it has since been taken care off so
it
can be used for museeum. It's now on UNESCOs world-heritage list.

Links:
http://www.grimetonradio.se/
http://www.radiostationengrimeton.se/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_VLF_transmitter
http://www.grimeton.org/
http://www.alexander.n.se/

Do visit Grimeton if you are in south of Sweden. You can also tune in
to
it's transmissions and report back.

The remaining submarine radiostation in Ruda could actually be turn
into
a time-code transmitter. It's a matter of financing it and giving the
order.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-16 Thread Tom Miller

Hi Didier,

Yes, you are correct. My memory from 10 + years ago is slowly fading. The 
ELF transmitters were used to get the subs up to near surface so they could 
receive messages from the VLF sites. NSS was a VLF site.


Thanks for the reality check :)

Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Didier Juges shali...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival


I  believe ELF is more like 100 Hz, which can be received much deeper,  so 
the sub can stay at the bottom.  24kHz is VLF.


Didier KO4BB



Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:


On 07/16/2012 03:28 AM, Tom Miller wrote:

I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub

know

that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information.
I'll need to google around to find more about it.

We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1

MW

at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire?


We had the ELF transmitter at Grimeton (SAQ) transmitting about 200 kHz

at 17.2 kHz using the Alexanderson alternator. I think the litz wire
was
4 inch in diameter as I recall it. It was cutting edge in 1924.
It was initially used for telegraph traffic to the US, and the Long
Island main station. It was really never keyed by hand, it was keyed
remote with optical keyer and messages taped back-to-back. After its
main service for telegraph messages was no longer motivate it, it got
used as the bell ringer for our subs and kept operational and
maintained up till about 1996 and it has since been taken care off so
it
can be used for museeum. It's now on UNESCOs world-heritage list.

Links:
http://www.grimetonradio.se/
http://www.radiostationengrimeton.se/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_VLF_transmitter
http://www.grimeton.org/
http://www.alexander.n.se/

Do visit Grimeton if you are in south of Sweden. You can also tune in
to
it's transmissions and report back.

The remaining submarine radiostation in Ruda could actually be turn
into
a time-code transmitter. It's a matter of financing it and giving the
order.

Cheers,
Magnus

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--
Sent from my Motorola Droid Razr phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my 
brevity.

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-16 Thread Tom Miller
Cool. Thanks Brook. I was fortunate to get several tours at NSS before they 
tore it down. I (and several others) were also able, through one of our 
senators, to have three of the 600 foot self supporting towers saved and 
reused for public safety. These three legged towers have a leg spacing of 
150 feet.


Best regards,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Brooke Clarke bro...@pacific.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival


Hi Didier:

Yes, here's a table with some sub com frequencies:
http://www.prc68.com/I/FA.shtml#ELF

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

Didier Juges wrote:
I  believe ELF is more like 100 Hz, which can be received much deeper,  so 
the sub can stay at the bottom.  24kHz is VLF.


Didier KO4BB



Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:


On 07/16/2012 03:28 AM, Tom Miller wrote:

I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub

know

that it had to come close to the surface to receive new information.
I'll need to google around to find more about it.

We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1

MW

at about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire?

We had the ELF transmitter at Grimeton (SAQ) transmitting about 200 kHz

at 17.2 kHz using the Alexanderson alternator. I think the litz wire
was
4 inch in diameter as I recall it. It was cutting edge in 1924.
It was initially used for telegraph traffic to the US, and the Long
Island main station. It was really never keyed by hand, it was keyed
remote with optical keyer and messages taped back-to-back. After its
main service for telegraph messages was no longer motivate it, it got
used as the bell ringer for our subs and kept operational and
maintained up till about 1996 and it has since been taken care off so
it
can be used for museeum. It's now on UNESCOs world-heritage list.

Links:
http://www.grimetonradio.se/
http://www.radiostationengrimeton.se/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimeton_VLF_transmitter
http://www.grimeton.org/
http://www.alexander.n.se/

Do visit Grimeton if you are in south of Sweden. You can also tune in
to
it's transmissions and report back.

The remaining submarine radiostation in Ruda could actually be turn
into
a time-code transmitter. It's a matter of financing it and giving the
order.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread J. Forster
Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air.
It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB.

I could easily see it with a small (1') loop and a 'scope.

YMMV,

-John

==



 Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up?
 It has about 800 ft of wire.
 Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +.
 Compared to a 2.5 ft loop.
 Yes higher power would be good.
 Regards
 paul

 On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com
 wrote:

 GM List,

 What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the
 democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate
 time/frequency
 information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those
 nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.

 The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing
 inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on
 for
 innumerable critical tasks.

 But it requires using satellites.   They are subject to destruction or
 degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge
 states that would be so inclined.  The ability to destroy a satellite
 from
 the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation.  There are
 numerous
 reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites.

 Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the
 need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches
 available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued
 destruction or degradation from a land based source.

 The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those
 in the current applicable leadership of the US government.  One proof of
 this was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending
 amount of several trillion dollars a year.

 But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS
 and
 perhaps might be revived.

 A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an
 alternate backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide
 protection
 at least for the USA GPS system.  Here’s why.  It still is very
 difficult
 and expensive to damage/destroy satellites.   That there are viable
 alternatives based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage
 the
 rogue states from making such an effort.

 WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum
 AM
 broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for
 about
 75 years.  NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57
 per cent.

 Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output
 power.  For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and
 is
 heard often in North America with a R-390A receiver.

 So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the
 relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical
 central
 U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per
 meter signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere
 and
 provide a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could
 phase lock on the signal in North America and would not be subject to
 problems of diurnal shift or the new modulation scheme.

 Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to
 install 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for
 an
 adequate signal.

 Regards,

 Perry Sandeen


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Magnus Danielson

On 07/15/2012 11:48 AM, J. Forster wrote:

Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air.
It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB.


A first place to look to check out that claim would be:

http://www.emsec.rub.de/media/crypto/attachments/files/2011/03/BeckerMasterthesis.pdf

It refers to this paper:

http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/LoENCGNSS09.pdf

For jamming and spoofing detection and counter-measures, as well as 
eLoran support, new receivers would be needed.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread J. Forster
Notice I said 'some'. One station would suffice. I'm only interested in a
standard of time interval.

-John

=



 On 07/15/2012 11:48 AM, J. Forster wrote:
 Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the
 air.
 It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB.

 A first place to look to check out that claim would be:

 http://www.emsec.rub.de/media/crypto/attachments/files/2011/03/BeckerMasterthesis.pdf

 It refers to this paper:

 http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/LoENCGNSS09.pdf

 For jamming and spoofing detection and counter-measures, as well as
 eLoran support, new receivers would be needed.

 Cheers,
 Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Magnus Danielson

On 07/15/2012 12:49 PM, J. Forster wrote:

Notice I said 'some'. One station would suffice. I'm only interested in a
standard of time interval.


That may not be sufficient for other uses, such as navigation. Firing 
one up for frequency source only would probably not be motivated.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

The *only* way for redundancy to do any good is for it to be designed into 
systems. That simply is not done. It was not done back when everything was on 
the air. It's not going to be done now (can't) or in the future (prediction). 
Why? It costs money, it did cost money, it will cost money. It's *not* because 
people don't / didn't know about the alternatives. Qualcomm was fielding 
Loran-C based timing long before viable GPS came along. It's also not because 
people like a single source of sync. It's an economic decision. There are lots 
of identical decisions made about all sorts of aspects of a complex system. 
There are *many* ways to take out a cell system….

Bob

On Jul 14, 2012, at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen wrote:

 GM List,
 
 What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the 
 democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency 
 information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those 
 nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.
 
 The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing inexpensive 
 time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for innumerable 
 critical tasks.
 
 But it requires using satellites.   They are subject to destruction or 
 degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge 
 states that would be so inclined.  The ability to destroy a satellite from 
 the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation.  There are numerous 
 reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites. 
 
 Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the need 
 for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches available 
 make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued destruction or 
 degradation from a land based source.
 
 The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those in 
 the current applicable leadership of the US government.  One proof of this 
 was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending amount of 
 several trillion dollars a year.
 
 But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS and 
 perhaps might be revived.
 
 A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an alternate 
 backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide protection at least 
 for the USA GPS system.  Here’s why.  It still is very difficult and 
 expensive to damage/destroy satellites.   That there are viable alternatives 
 based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage the rogue states 
 from making such an effort.
 
 WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum AM 
 broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for about 75 
 years.  NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57 per 
 cent.
 
 Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output power.  
 For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and is heard 
 often in North America with a R-390A receiver.
 
 So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the 
 relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical central 
 U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per meter 
 signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere and provide 
 a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could phase lock on 
 the signal in North America and would not be subject to problems of diurnal 
 shift or the new modulation scheme.
 
 Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to install 
 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for an adequate 
 signal.
 
 Regards,
 
 Perry Sandeen
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Chris Albertson
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:48 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:
 Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air.
 It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB.

 I could easily see it with a small (1') loop and a 'scope.

 YMMV,

 -John

 ==



 Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up?
 It has about 800 ft of wire.
 Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +.
 Compared to a 2.5 ft loop.
 Yes higher power would be good.
 Regards
 paul

 On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com
 wrote:

 GM List,

 What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the
 democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate
 time/frequency
 information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those
 nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.

 The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing
 inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on
 for
 innumerable critical tasks.

 But it requires using satellites.   They are subject to destruction or
 degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge
 states that would be so inclined.  The ability to destroy a satellite
 from
 the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation.  There are
 numerous
 reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites.

 Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the
 need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches
 available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued
 destruction or degradation from a land based source.


If you are worried about the system surviving an attack, a Loran
system can be taken out by something as un-sophisticated as just one
car bomb.   One guy working along could do it.Taking out a
satellite at 400 miles up is a MUCH harder problem.

Don't say people in the government don't think about this.  One
solution being worked is very small satellites.  What can yo pack in a
one cubic foot box?  What if you could launch 100 such boxes from a
solid fueled rocked based in a silo (like an ICBM that can be launched
on a VERY short count down)   Othr research ares are mesh networks
That might address the question of what could you do with 100,000
iPhones in orbit.

If you are worried about security and jamming the solution is NOT a
powerful, wide area broadcast.  No you use a great number of tiny
overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
Think about rats and cockroaches




Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Bob Camp
Hi

…. and the same cockroach approach is by far the easier way to take out a cell 
system.

Bob

On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:34 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

 On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:48 AM, J. Forster j...@quikus.com wrote:
 Rather than messing with WWVB, some LORAN-C should be put back on the air.
 It is essentially impossible to jam, unlike GPS or WWVB.
 
 I could easily see it with a small (1') loop and a 'scope.
 
 YMMV,
 
 -John
 
 ==
 
 
 
 Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up?
 It has about 800 ft of wire.
 Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +.
 Compared to a 2.5 ft loop.
 Yes higher power would be good.
 Regards
 paul
 
 On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
 
 GM List,
 
 What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the
 democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate
 time/frequency
 information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those
 nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.
 
 The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing
 inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on
 for
 innumerable critical tasks.
 
 But it requires using satellites.   They are subject to destruction or
 degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge
 states that would be so inclined.  The ability to destroy a satellite
 from
 the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation.  There are
 numerous
 reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites.
 
 Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the
 need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches
 available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued
 destruction or degradation from a land based source.
 
 
 If you are worried about the system surviving an attack, a Loran
 system can be taken out by something as un-sophisticated as just one
 car bomb.   One guy working along could do it.Taking out a
 satellite at 400 miles up is a MUCH harder problem.
 
 Don't say people in the government don't think about this.  One
 solution being worked is very small satellites.  What can yo pack in a
 one cubic foot box?  What if you could launch 100 such boxes from a
 solid fueled rocked based in a silo (like an ICBM that can be launched
 on a VERY short count down)   Othr research ares are mesh networks
 That might address the question of what could you do with 100,000
 iPhones in orbit.
 
 If you are worried about security and jamming the solution is NOT a
 powerful, wide area broadcast.  No you use a great number of tiny
 overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
 and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
 not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
 Think about rats and cockroaches
 
 
 
 
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
 
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Don Latham


No you use a great number of tiny
 overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
 and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
 not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
 Think about rats and cockroaches
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried
cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called,
or present status.  These things are kinda lost these days, like the
original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of
truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs...
Don


-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread jmfranke
Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of 
the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN 
system run primarily for the railroads.


John  WA4WDL

--
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival




No you use a great number of tiny

overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
Think about rats and cockroaches
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried
cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called,
or present status.  These things are kinda lost these days, like the
original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of
truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs...
Don


--
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



___
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To unsubscribe, go to 
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and follow the instructions there.




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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Tom Miller
I believe many of the GWEN sites were converted to VLF beacons transmitting 
differential GPS reference data.


I know of one site in Crownsville, Maryland that does just that.

I don't know the up to data status of these sites now.


Regards,
Tom



- Original Message - 
From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival


Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of
the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN
system run primarily for the railroads.

John  WA4WDL

--
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival




No you use a great number of tiny

overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
Think about rats and cockroaches
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried
cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called,
or present status.  These things are kinda lost these days, like the
original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of
truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs...
Don


--
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



___
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Spencer

GWEN was a  late cold war era LF cellular style communications system for use 
within parts of the USA.  Over the years I've seen a number of cesium standards 
on Ebay being sold as ex GWEN equipment.  As far as I know GWEN is long gone.

Supposedly some AM broadcast stations also transmitted fsk data for defence 
purposes as well.  Perhaps some AM broadcast stations could be used to transmit 
timing information.

There were also cold war era proposals for a nation wide LF broadcast system 
for civil defence use and iirc at least one transmitter was actually on the air 
in the 70's or early 80's.

As much as I'd like to see a nation wide LF broadcast system as a means of 
distributing standard time, frequency, and other related information, I just 
don't see it happening in this day and age. 

Some form of backup to gps would be nice for timing purposes.  I wonder if a 
secondary sattelite based system for timing use only over the continental US 
might be the way to go.  (Ie. a transmitter on a geo stationary sattelite that 
could emulate enough of the gps signals to allow statioanry timing receivers to 
function.)

--
On Sun, 15 Jul, 2012 2:09 PM EDT Tom Miller wrote:

I believe many of the GWEN sites were converted to VLF beacons transmitting 
differential GPS reference data.

I know of one site in Crownsville, Maryland that does just that.

I don't know the up to data status of these sites now.


Regards,
Tom



- Original Message - 
From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival


Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many of
the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland LORAN
system run primarily for the railroads.

John  WA4WDL

--
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival



 No you use a great number of tiny
 overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
 and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
 not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
 Think about rats and cockroaches
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
 There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried
 cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called,
 or present status.  These things are kinda lost these days, like the
 original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of
 truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs...
 Don


 -- 
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com



 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread John Seamons
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/01septoct/gwen.cfm;
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=SiteLocations;
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/ndgps/DGPS_Site_Table.pdf;

The only ones I know for a fact were former GWEN sites are Essex CA and ABQ NM.
I can hear 29 +/- of these with an indoor loopstick in the winter when 
conditions are quiet.

On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Tom Miller wrote:

 I believe many of the GWEN sites were converted to VLF beacons transmitting 
 differential GPS reference data.
 
 I know of one site in Crownsville, Maryland that does just that.
 
 I don't know the up to data status of these sites now.
 
 
 Regards,
 Tom


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread John Seamons
I can't seem to remember it's angle brackets you use to quote a url. Sorry 
about that for those of you reading on the archive and getting bad links. Try 
below:

On Jul 15, 2012, at 1:42 PM, John Seamons wrote:

 http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/01septoct/gwen.cfm
 http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=SiteLocations
 http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/ndgps/DGPS_Site_Table.pdf
 
 The only ones I know for a fact were former GWEN sites are Essex CA and ABQ 
 NM.
 I can hear 29 +/- of these with an indoor loopstick in the winter when 
 conditions are quiet.


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread J. Forster
This makes no sense.

The major expense of any radio system is not the transmitters, but the
infrastrcture to support those transmitters.

Things like land, towers, buildings, maintenance people, and legal costs
all are far more than a transmitter. And, have you looked at the cost of a
single satellite? LORAN-C could have been run for a decade or three for
the cost of a single bird.

Many of those are probably available for a resurected LORAN-C, except for
what has been sold off.

-John

===




 GWEN was a  late cold war era LF cellular style communications system
 for use within parts of the USA.  Over the years I've seen a number of
 cesium standards on Ebay being sold as ex GWEN equipment.  As far as I
 know GWEN is long gone.

 Supposedly some AM broadcast stations also transmitted fsk data for
 defence purposes as well.  Perhaps some AM broadcast stations could be
 used to transmit timing information.

 There were also cold war era proposals for a nation wide LF broadcast
 system for civil defence use and iirc at least one transmitter was
 actually on the air in the 70's or early 80's.

 As much as I'd like to see a nation wide LF broadcast system as a means of
 distributing standard time, frequency, and other related information, I
 just don't see it happening in this day and age.

 Some form of backup to gps would be nice for timing purposes.  I wonder if
 a secondary sattelite based system for timing use only over the
 continental US might be the way to go.  (Ie. a transmitter on a geo
 stationary sattelite that could emulate enough of the gps signals to allow
 statioanry timing receivers to function.)

 --
 On Sun, 15 Jul, 2012 2:09 PM EDT Tom Miller wrote:

I believe many of the GWEN sites were converted to VLF beacons
 transmitting
differential GPS reference data.

I know of one site in Crownsville, Maryland that does just that.

I don't know the up to data status of these sites now.


Regards,
Tom



- Original Message -
From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival


Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many
 of
the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland
 LORAN
system run primarily for the railroads.

John  WA4WDL

--
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival



 No you use a great number of tiny
 overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
 and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
 not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
 Think about rats and cockroaches
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
 There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried
 cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called,
 or present status.  These things are kinda lost these days, like the
 original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of
 truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs...
 Don


 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com



 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Spencer

In my view a backup solution that allows the existing gps based timing 
receivers to be used makes a reasonable ammount of sense.   Another approach 
could involve ground based transmitters on high buildings or mountain tops.


--
On Sun, 15 Jul, 2012 4:23 PM EDT J. Forster wrote:

This makes no sense.

The major expense of any radio system is not the transmitters, but the
infrastrcture to support those transmitters.

Things like land, towers, buildings, maintenance people, and legal costs
all are far more than a transmitter. And, have you looked at the cost of a
single satellite? LORAN-C could have been run for a decade or three for
the cost of a single bird.

Many of those are probably available for a resurected LORAN-C, except for
what has been sold off.

-John

===




 GWEN was a  late cold war era LF cellular style communications system
 for use within parts of the USA.  Over the years I've seen a number of
 cesium standards on Ebay being sold as ex GWEN equipment.  As far as I
 know GWEN is long gone.

 Supposedly some AM broadcast stations also transmitted fsk data for
 defence purposes as well.  Perhaps some AM broadcast stations could be
 used to transmit timing information.

 There were also cold war era proposals for a nation wide LF broadcast
 system for civil defence use and iirc at least one transmitter was
 actually on the air in the 70's or early 80's.

 As much as I'd like to see a nation wide LF broadcast system as a means of
 distributing standard time, frequency, and other related information, I
 just don't see it happening in this day and age.

 Some form of backup to gps would be nice for timing purposes.  I wonder if
 a secondary sattelite based system for timing use only over the
 continental US might be the way to go.  (Ie. a transmitter on a geo
 stationary sattelite that could emulate enough of the gps signals to allow
 statioanry timing receivers to function.)

 --
 On Sun, 15 Jul, 2012 2:09 PM EDT Tom Miller wrote:

I believe many of the GWEN sites were converted to VLF beacons
 transmitting
differential GPS reference data.

I know of one site in Crownsville, Maryland that does just that.

I don't know the up to data status of these sites now.


Regards,
Tom



- Original Message -
From: jmfranke jmfra...@cox.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival


Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many
 of
the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland
 LORAN
system run primarily for the railroads.

John  WA4WDL

--
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival



 No you use a great number of tiny
 overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
 and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
 not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
 Think about rats and cockroaches
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
 There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a buried
 cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called,
 or present status.  These things are kinda lost these days, like the
 original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport of
 truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs...
 Don


 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com



 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
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 and follow the instructions there.



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Don Latham
could be it...
Don

jmfranke
 Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many
 of
 the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland
 LORAN
 system run primarily for the railroads.

 John  WA4WDL

 --
 From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
 Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival



 No you use a great number of tiny
 overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
 and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
 not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
 Think about rats and cockroaches
 Chris Albertson
 Redondo Beach, California
 There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a
 buried
 cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called,
 or present status.  These things are kinda lost these days, like the
 original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport
 of
 truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs...
 Don


 --
 Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
 are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
 R. Bacon
 If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
 Ghost in the Shell


 Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
 Six Mile Systems LLP
 17850 Six Mile Road
 POB 134
 Huson, MT, 59846
 VOX 406-626-4304
 www.lightningforensics.com
 www.sixmilesystems.com



 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to
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 and follow the instructions there.



-- 
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Jim Lux

On 7/15/12 12:38 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:



Some form of backup to gps would be nice for timing purposes.  I wonder if a 
secondary sattelite based system for timing use only over the continental US 
might be the way to go.  (Ie. a transmitter on a geo stationary sattelite that 
could emulate enough of the gps signals to allow statioanry timing receivers to 
function.)



You mean like WAAS?  It's a GPS like signal broadcast from GEO.





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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Jim Lux

On 7/15/12 1:32 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:


In my view a backup solution that allows the existing gps based timing 
receivers to be used makes a reasonable ammount of sense.   Another approach 
could involve ground based transmitters on high buildings or mountain tops.



Retuned Lightsquared sites?



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Spencer
Good point about WAAS.   I wonder if newer timing receivers that support WAAS 
would continue to function in a stationary mode if they could only receive 
valid signals from WAAS ?   I also wonder if the WAAS ground segment would 
continue to function without GPS ?   That being said the transmitters are 
already in orbit.

Sent from my iPad

On 2012-07-15, at 2:53 PM, Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net wrote:

 On 7/15/12 12:38 PM, Mark Spencer wrote:
 
 
 Some form of backup to gps would be nice for timing purposes.  I wonder if a 
 secondary sattelite based system for timing use only over the continental US 
 might be the way to go.  (Ie. a transmitter on a geo stationary sattelite 
 that could emulate enough of the gps signals to allow statioanry timing 
 receivers to function.)
 
 
 You mean like WAAS?  It's a GPS like signal broadcast from GEO.
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Lee Mushel
Well, it could have been ELF whose Seafarer antenna was located at Clam Lake 
Wisconsin.   My grandfather built a vacation cabin just north of Clam Lake 
and it was a big deal to visit the place.   That was before the peaceniks 
were demonstrating since they didn't seem to want our submarines to do too 
much damage to Russia.   I think that antenna was almost 30 miles 
long---don't quote me but it was an important component in the very low 
frequency communications system of the Navy..


Lee   K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival



could be it...
Don

jmfranke

Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many
of
the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland
LORAN
system run primarily for the railroads.

John  WA4WDL

--
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival




No you use a great number of tiny

overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
Think about rats and cockroaches
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a
buried
cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called,
or present status.  These things are kinda lost these days, like the
original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport
of
truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs...
Don


--
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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--
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Magnus Danielson

On 07/16/2012 12:21 AM, Mark Spencer wrote:

Good point about WAAS.   I wonder if newer timing receivers that support WAAS 
would continue to function in a stationary mode if they could only receive 
valid signals from WAAS ?   I also wonder if the WAAS ground segment would 
continue to function without GPS ?   That being said the transmitters are 
already in orbit.


Considering that WAAS, EGNOS and friends has signal on L1 at approximate 
the same energy as GPS, when you loose GPS you run high risk at loosing 
WAAS and friends too, in the same blow.


You should be able to continue receive WAAS signal, even if the GPS 
fails for them.


The benefit of WAAS and EGNOS is that they have a fixed location in the 
sky. so you could use a highly directional antenna, like a parabolic 
antenna, which would provide suppression of most jamming signal unless 
they are overhead.


Another benefit of using WAAS is that you could do the C/A correlation 
in analogue hardware, which would allow for CW jammers to be suppressed 
without the gain control being fetched.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Tom Miller
I believe they called that system a bell ringer. It let the sub know that 
it had to come close to the surface to receive new information. I'll need to 
google around to find more about it.


We had a ELF transmitter (NSS) in Annapolis that transmitted about 1 MW at 
about 24 kHz. Anyone ever seen 3 inch diameter litz wire?


Regards,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Lee Mushel herbe...@centurytel.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival


Well, it could have been ELF whose Seafarer antenna was located at Clam Lake
Wisconsin.   My grandfather built a vacation cabin just north of Clam Lake
and it was a big deal to visit the place.   That was before the peaceniks
were demonstrating since they didn't seem to want our submarines to do too
much damage to Russia.   I think that antenna was almost 30 miles
long---don't quote me but it was an important component in the very low
frequency communications system of the Navy..

Lee   K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com

To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival



could be it...
Don

jmfranke

Was it GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network)? When it was shut down, many
of
the transmitter sites were scheduled to be used as part of an inland
LORAN
system run primarily for the railroads.

John  WA4WDL

--
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 12:53 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival




No you use a great number of tiny

overlapping cells combined with spread spectrum and strong encryption
and you control it with a some kind of self organizing mesh network,
not a top-down control system.   What this does is mimic nature.
Think about rats and cockroaches
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

There was (is?) a vlf system like this at one time, along with a
buried
cable system, cold-war projects. Can't remember what they were called,
or present status.  These things are kinda lost these days, like the
original reason for the national interstate freeway system-transport
of
truck-mounted ICBMs'--taken over by the ICBM subs...
Don


--
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



___
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--
Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind.
R. Bacon
If you don't know what it is, don't poke it.
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Chris Albertson
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Magnus Danielson
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:

 The benefit of WAAS and EGNOS is that they have a fixed location in the sky.
 so you could use a highly directional antenna, like a parabolic antenna,
 which would provide suppression of most jamming signal unless they are
 overhead.

I've seen a military GPS antenna that was a large phased array.  I
guess the idea was to use the almanac to track the moving GPS sats.
The goal was to reject jammers by using a dozen or so synthesized
pencil beams. (like a radar in a fighter jet)  You could not put this
in a hand held device as it was as BIG.That is the main problem
with directional antenna they need to be large with respect to the
wavelength.   I don't know if this ever was used in a real deployed
system.

I think this antenna type was also the design proposed for a
distributed low orbit comms system too.  The current geo-sync
comm-sats make for simple antenna but all of the proposed tactical
launch on an hour notice comm-sats would be in LEO (low earth orbit)
and launched with something like Pegasus or a  re-purposed ICBM.
The problem is that having a few dozen low power sats in LEO seriously
complicates the portable ground stations, hence experiments with
flat-plate phased array.

THis is a very active research area.  The very last payload deployed
by the Space Shuttle was pico-sat a 5x5x10 inch satellite.  It was
built at the place I worked at as a test of a new pico-sized bus.
This example had some sensors but really the test was if the thing
could be commanded from the ground and do anything usfull at all.
Look at the photo in the link.  The sat is the box inside the bigger
box.One of the recent innovations was to cut out patterns in
sheets metal and stack many sheets to create a 3D tank and plumbing
system with integrated rocket nozzles.  The goal was to reduce costs
by having a design that can be manufactured by robots.
http://www.space.com/12354-final-space-shuttle-satellite-deployment-picosat.html

So YES everyone knows these big satellites are targets.  In a major
war with a sophisticated enemy they would be gone soon.  So the plan
is to design systems that can be built stored and launched on VERY
short notice in very large numbers.This kind of research has maybe
a 25 year horizon maybe longer as you need to build up a new eco
system of space qualified parts and engineers familiar with them and
do many launches and tests.




Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-15 Thread Jim Lux

On 7/15/12 6:25 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Magnus Danielson
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:


The benefit of WAAS and EGNOS is that they have a fixed location in the sky.
so you could use a highly directional antenna, like a parabolic antenna,
which would provide suppression of most jamming signal unless they are
overhead.


I've seen a military GPS antenna that was a large phased array.  I
guess the idea was to use the almanac to track the moving GPS sats.
The goal was to reject jammers by using a dozen or so synthesized
pencil beams. (like a radar in a fighter jet)  You could not put this
in a hand held device as it was as BIG.That is the main problem
with directional antenna they need to be large with respect to the
wavelength.   I don't know if this ever was used in a real deployed
system.


Doesn't need to be all that big... lambda at 1.5 GHz is 20cm.. an array 
that's, say, 50x50 cm would have significant interference rejection 
capability (i.e. you don't have to synthesize a pencil beam, you just 
need to put a null on the interference.. and you can null N-1 sources 
when you have N elements, so a 9 element (3x3) array would do nicely.. 
(and give you your attitude as a side effect)





I think this antenna type was also the design proposed for a
distributed low orbit comms system too.  The current geo-sync
comm-sats make for simple antenna but all of the proposed tactical
launch on an hour notice comm-sats would be in LEO (low earth orbit)
and launched with something like Pegasus or a  re-purposed ICBM.
The problem is that having a few dozen low power sats in LEO seriously
complicates the portable ground stations, hence experiments with
flat-plate phased array.


Not really.. it depends on the frequency and the number of sources you 
need to track.





THis is a very active research area.  The very last payload deployed
by the Space Shuttle was pico-sat a 5x5x10 inch satellite.  It was
built at the place I worked at as a test of a new pico-sized bus.
This example had some sensors but really the test was if the thing
could be commanded from the ground and do anything usfull at all.
Look at the photo in the link.  The sat is the box inside the bigger
box.One of the recent innovations was to cut out patterns in
sheets metal and stack many sheets to create a 3D tank and plumbing
system with integrated rocket nozzles.  The goal was to reduce costs
by having a design that can be manufactured by robots.
http://www.space.com/12354-final-space-shuttle-satellite-deployment-picosat.html

So YES everyone knows these big satellites are targets.  In a major
war with a sophisticated enemy they would be gone soon.  So the plan
is to design systems that can be built stored and launched on VERY
short notice in very large numbers.This kind of research has maybe
a 25 year horizon maybe longer as you need to build up a new eco
system of space qualified parts and engineers familiar with them and
do many launches and tests.



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[time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-14 Thread Perry Sandeen
GM List,

What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the democratic 
nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency information that 
is not subject to interference or destruction by those nations diametrically 
opposed to personal freedom.

The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing inexpensive 
time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for innumerable 
critical tasks.

But it requires using satellites.   They are subject to destruction or 
degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge states 
that would be so inclined.  The ability to destroy a satellite from the earth 
has already ben demonstrated by one nation.  There are numerous reports of 
shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites. 

Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the need for 
sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches available make 
the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued destruction or degradation 
from a land based source.

The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those in the 
current applicable leadership of the US government.  One proof of this was the 
shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending amount of several 
trillion dollars a year.

But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS and 
perhaps might be revived.

A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an alternate 
backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide protection at least for 
the USA GPS system.  Here’s why.  It still is very difficult and expensive to 
damage/destroy satellites.   That there are viable alternatives based on 
unassailable sovereign territory may discourage the rogue states from making 
such an effort.

WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum AM 
broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for about 75 
years.  NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57 per cent.

Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output power.  
For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and is heard often 
in North America with a R-390A receiver.

So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the 
relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical central U.S. 
state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per meter signal 
level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere and provide a high 
enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could phase lock on the 
signal in North America and would not be subject to problems of diurnal shift 
or the new modulation scheme.

Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to install 
20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for an adequate 
signal.

Regards,

Perry Sandeen


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-14 Thread paul swed
Perry you mean like the 10' X 10' loop I put up?
It has about 800 ft of wire.
Brang the daytime signal fro 30 uv to an easy 60 +.
Compared to a 2.5 ft loop.
Yes higher power would be good.
Regards
paul

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Perry Sandeen sandee...@yahoo.com wrote:

 GM List,

 What has not been mentioned so far is national security needs of the
 democratic nations of the world for uninterrupted accurate time/frequency
 information that is not subject to interference or destruction by those
 nations diametrically opposed to personal freedom.

 The United States GPS system is an unparalleled success providing
 inexpensive time and frequency standards worldwide and it is relied on for
 innumerable critical tasks.

 But it requires using satellites.   They are subject to destruction or
 degradation from the ground over the sovereign territory by those rouge
 states that would be so inclined.  The ability to destroy a satellite from
 the earth has already ben demonstrated by one nation.  There are numerous
 reports of shall we say *Malicious Tinkering* on other satellites.

 Setting aside the enormous expense, technical difficulties such as the
 need for sophisticated and extremely limited amount of rocket launches
 available make the system unsustainable to GPS satellites continued
 destruction or degradation from a land based source.

 The need for a strong viable redundancy is totally unfathomed upon those
 in the current applicable leadership of the US government.  One proof of
 this was the shutting down of Loran C to save $35 M a year in a spending
 amount of several trillion dollars a year.

 But Loran C gave us the best and cheapest redundant alternative to GPS and
 perhaps might be revived.

 A viable WWVB signal, while a very poor third choice, provides an
 alternate backup for GPS and in a strange way that could provide protection
 at least for the USA GPS system.  Here’s why.  It still is very difficult
 and expensive to damage/destroy satellites.   That there are viable
 alternatives based on unassailable sovereign territory may discourage the
 rogue states from making such an effort.

 WWVB has a historically transmitted power of 50KW. This is the maximum AM
 broadcast band signal transmission power allowed in the USA IIRC for about
 75 years.  NIST sates the WWVB antennas having efficiencies of around 57
 per cent.

 Improved transmitting tube technology would easily allow more output
 power.  For example Riydah, Saudi Arabia transmits 2 MW on 1201 KHz and is
 heard often in North America with a R-390A receiver.

 So a massive increase from 50KW to say for example to 500KW and or the
 relocation of the transmitter and antennas to a more geographical central
 U.S. state location (such as Iowa) could extend the 100 micro-volt per
 meter signal level radiation pattern over the entire western hemisphere and
 provide a high enough micro-volt per meter signal that receivers could
 phase lock on the signal in North America and would not be subject to
 problems of diurnal shift or the new modulation scheme.

 Baring an improved WWVB signal strength us time nuts may be forced to
 install 20 to 30 ft. loop antennas when the new system is finalized for an
 adequate signal.

 Regards,

 Perry Sandeen


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB and Free Democracies Survival

2012-07-14 Thread Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R

Offhand I'd estimate it would be easier for some bad guys
to put a crude A-bomb on top of a SCUD and put America
into the horse and buggy age with an EMP attack than to
take out a significant number of GPS satellites.

NLK in Washington state has been off the for almost
two months now.  Depending on which list one looks at,
NLK transmits on 24.8 with 300 to 1000 kilowatts.
Perhaps NLK could be retuned to send the WWVB signal.

--
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com   www.omen.com
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
  Omen Technology Inc  The High Reliability Software
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231   503-614-0430




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